FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

When we're not doing well, I do not want to pray.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Because God confronts our sin and brokenness.

Speaker 3

It's like instant. Like, instant God. Oh, okay. I see where I'm wrong.

Speaker 1

Oh, it's me again.

Speaker 3

Like, I'm certain it's 100% her fault. And then Lord.

Speaker 2

Oh.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

Okay, so today we're gonna do a Wilson original, but because we've run out of original material, we brought some people.

Speaker 3

In to help us.

Speaker 1

First of all, we have Arlene Pellicane with us, who has volunteered to come in.

Speaker 4

I want to be part of the Wilson original.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

You're sitting in the middle between two couples. It's like you're a counselor.

Speaker 1

She's your therapist.

Speaker 4

The therapist is in. Not really.

Speaker 1

And, Arlene, tell us, like, you've written several books. Tell us about those.

Speaker 4

I write about marriage and parenting.

So screen kids if you're having trouble with technology.

Parents rising if you're having trouble because your kids are bossing you around and making marriage easier. If you want to make it easier.

So those would be the three I would point people to see.

Speaker 1

She's really good to be able to be sitting in this with us.

Speaker 2

And all I know is I'm looking over at Bruce and Maria Goff, who are with us, and they hit each other. Like, we need all those books.

Speaker 3

I was thinking check, check and check.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Okay. Give us a little hint. Let our listeners and viewers hear. Care about your family, the stage of life you're in.

Speaker 3

We both nodded each other. We've got four girls. We've been married 12 years. We've got four girls, nine, six, three, and zero. And they are precious, and we love them very much.

Speaker 2

It sounds like you're convincing yourself, and your job is you're inside the studio, usually on the other side of that glass.

Speaker 3

Yeah. I had to show Jim, my boss, how to do my job right before I came in here. It took all of three and a half seconds. Press this button and this button.

Speaker 2

I don't think so. You make this and then don't press another.

Speaker 3

But till we're done.

Speaker 1

But some of our listeners have heard you guys before because you are honest. You are frank. And when you were in here before and we recorded you, Maria, what were we talking about?

Speaker 5

Keeping score. Happy couples keep score.

Speaker 2

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3

But they keep score positively of the other person.

Speaker 2

That's no fun.

Speaker 3

I know. I'm so good at the other one.

Speaker 1

But we. I just love that you guys are in it in terms of being parents of your kids are in Like, I think you're in the hardest phase of.

Speaker 2

Marriage, and I'm just glad we're not in it anymore. That's all I gotta say.

Speaker 1

And, Arlene, how old are your kids?

Speaker 4

They're 15, 18, 20. So we do kind of have a nice bridge here going on.

Speaker 1

But do you think that they're in the hardest phase of things?

Speaker 4

You are in the busiest because you are still thinking, like, do we have the diaper bag? Do we have the sippy cup? This person needs their food cut. Like, it is intense.

Speaker 2

Do I still like my husband? Do I still like my wife?

Speaker 1

I think you're the biggest comparison in terms of whose life is harder and whose life is easier.

Speaker 3

It's not really a contest. I mean. Yeah, but it's funny.

Like, you talking about remembering the bag of the diapers and stuff. If we forget a passy, my brain automatically thinks it's her fault. As if I couldn't have also remembered to bring a passy.

But you forgot a passy.

Speaker 2

Is that what happens?

Speaker 5

Yes.

Speaker 2

Really? Your brain doesn't go that way?

Speaker 5

No. I mean. I mean, I do blame him for everything you're saying, but I thought you.

Speaker 2

Were gonna say some things.

Speaker 5

I don't expect him to remember the baby stuff. Like, I do mentally feel like I register that I'm in charge of collecting the baby things going out the door.

Speaker 1

But, Maria, you're also homeschooling.

Speaker 5

Yes, I am.

Speaker 4

Did you hear the sigh?

Speaker 1

Yes, I am.

Speaker 4

Followed by the giggling.

Speaker 1

So, what are we talking about with these?

Speaker 2

Well, I want to ask you guys another question now we're here. Do you guys play the whose life is harder game?

Speaker 5

We do.

Speaker 3

Yes, we do, actually.

Speaker 5

Yeah, we do.

Speaker 2

I mean, you're in that stage.

Speaker 1

Life is hard.

Speaker 5

But I think. Yeah. I mean, when you said that a while ago, say, I was thinking. You are. You are saying that. That it is me.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 3

No, in some ways, having a newborn makes our marriage better because there's no contest. I'm like, you're doing more. You know what I mean? So it puts us in that good keeping track of score thing.

We're very healthy at this point. It's when they get older that I'm like, I feel like I'm doing more.

Speaker 5

Well, honestly, I don't necessarily feel like maybe I am doing more, but I don't think of it in terms of I'm doing more. I think of it in terms of I. No, I'm doing more, but I have more of the mental load.

Like, oh, there's stuff that I carry around in my head that he doesn't ever have to think about. Like, when I'm planning meals, I'm planning lessons, I'm keeping track of schedules. I'm keeping track of medications and dosages. All of those things that he has no idea about.

If I'm leaving the house, he's like, "How much does this person get of this?" and, you know, whatever.

Speaker 2

And, like, you call your kids this person.

Speaker 5

If somebody gets sick, he's like, what do I give them?

Speaker 3

Yeah, but I make my own breakfast.

Speaker 5

Okay, that's true.

Speaker 3

It's the neighbor, Gadzy. I do my own laundry.

Speaker 1

Do you have your own list of things in your head, Bruce? Like, can we make it financially? What's going on with my job?

Speaker 3

Who's been keeping up with the fertilizer in the yard? You asked me the other day, have we been keeping up? Yes, we have.

Speaker 5

This is true.

Speaker 1

Arlene, does that change, do you think, as your kids get older of keeping track?

Speaker 4

I don't think so. Cause it just continues in that new season. Whatever season you're at, you're kind of that way.

But it made me think of Pam and Bill Ferrell about the waffles and spaghetti. Cause the man is just thinking more simply.

It's just the male brain is more like, I need to go to work. I need to go pick that up where the woman hasn't.

Speaker 2

I just have to make it sound dumb. I just have to.

Speaker 3

Me have to.

Speaker 4

We better edit that out. I better bring home. That's my male impression.

But the woman's got a whole big plate of spaghetti on her head that's thinking about all these different things all the time. So I kind of feel like we women, we just think about things.

Speaker 1

And then as they get older, now you're thinking relational stuff with your kids. How are they feeling about their teacher? And that girl was mean to them. And so now it becomes this whole relational bundle.

Speaker 4

And then the husband often is like, who's that again? Right. And then, you know, it's like, well, that's that friend from the biology class. I have no idea who this person is.

Speaker 1

Yeah. One of our sons said to Dave, like, know the people in the game, dad.

Speaker 2

You don't have to bring.

Speaker 1

Know our friends names. That's what it's like.

Speaker 2

I still don't know their names. And they were at our house all the time. But, I mean, do you feel like.

Cause I. Bruce, I wouldn't like you. I always thought my job was harder, even though obviously hers was hard. Especially with three boys, like, under five, you know, and a baby in the house.

And I'm coming in like, oh, I had such a hard day. I was in a meeting, and I had to go to lunch with this guy, and I.

She's like, you went to lunch with somebody?

Speaker 3

With Grandpa?

Speaker 2

I'm like, no, no, I didn't go to lunch with anybody.

Speaker 1

You didn't have to cut up anybody's food. Like, what was that like?

Speaker 2

But I actually had this perception that my what I'm carrying is a lot heavier than yours. You got babies. And I didn't realize it was a lot harder for her. And she wasn't homeschooling. Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I had to text her the other day, and I was like, oh, I hate doing this. But, like, can I borrow the car? We're having a meeting at Starbucks. So I go home, take the car. See ya.

Speaker 5

Actually, you ended up biting with Bobby.

Speaker 3

Oh, that's right.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Never mind. Bobby.

Speaker 5

He worked it out.

Speaker 3

Bobby came through again.

Speaker 1

That's true.

Speaker 2

Didn't you have some story, I don't even know what it was about you moving a tree?

Speaker 3

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 5

I asked him to go get a tomato plant from my friend who was moving away, and he and Jim come back with this tree. I'm like, what the heck is this?

Speaker 2

And he's like, you just wanted a little plant.

Speaker 5

You said the big plant. You said the big, huge one. And I'm like, this is not.

Speaker 3

Do you know what I mean? The one we took didn't even belong to the people.

Speaker 1

So wait. So wait, Maria, you're like, bring home that tomato plant, and they come home with a potted tree.

Speaker 3

And like, three or four times, I'm like, that's not. You think that's gonna fit in our car? She's like, I don't know. If you push the seat back. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna have to get Jim in his truck for that.

Speaker 5

And I'm like, pointing at the tomato plant.

Speaker 3

No, there was no pointing. We were inside, and I said, the big one. And you said, yeah, that I met.

Speaker 5

Was right next to us. Like, the big, huge one. Yeah.

Speaker 3

I don't remember any pointing going on. There was just the big one, the.

Speaker 5

One with the tomatoes.

Speaker 3

I think Jim made a great point at the time.

Speaker 5

Tomatoes on it.

Speaker 3

Jim said, who's dumber? Me for not knowing what a tomato plant looks like or you for thinking I know what a tomato plant looks like?

Speaker 2

I can't believe.

Speaker 1

Wait, wait, wait. Did it have tomatoes on It.

Speaker 5

Yes.

Speaker 2

Well, there you go.

Speaker 1

Bruce. Bruce.

Speaker 3

I don't know how tomatoes grow, and I assume it's just out of season right now. I don't know.

Speaker 2

So I still don't know. He stole the baggie.

Speaker 4

Oh, my God.

Speaker 3

Fortunately, they brought it back, like, within five minutes.

Speaker 5

Fortunately, they had already moved away. So there's nobody in the house.

Speaker 3

Throw out our bags.

Speaker 5

And they actually knew that they stole it. Unless they checked their ring camera or something.

Speaker 1

Well, here's where we want to go today. Not that all that wasn't great, but we have some questions to diagnose the health problem.

Speaker 2

Well, these are 10 diagnostic questions for you and your spouse from Kevin DeYoung. He wrote a blog about it, and so we're going to, like, go through some of his diagnostics and just hear what you guys have say.

Speaker 3

Although you could have used these on your 10th anniversary.

Speaker 2

We could have.

Speaker 1

We could have.

Speaker 2

Bruce, thanks for bringing that up.

Speaker 4

You know, he's like, you brought out the tomato plant going here the day.

Speaker 2

My wife said, our marriage is over.

Speaker 3

Yeah, because you thought you were 9.9, and she thought you were a.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

3.5.

Speaker 1

5.

Speaker 2

At the beginning of this blog, see how I'm transitioning. He talks about laughter, which isn't even one of the 10, but he says the couple that laughs together lasts together.

Speaker 4

I like that.

Speaker 2

Agree, disagree, agree.

Speaker 5

I feel like the times that we have, like, really cracked up together. Whatever. We're like, we need to do this more.

Speaker 1

Arlene, you write about that in your.

Speaker 4

Latest we have to have fun together. One of those decisions to make marriage easier is take fun seriously.

Speaker 3

Did you guys do that when you had kids? Like when they were, you know, our age, like, young, under 10. Prioritize fun.

Speaker 2

Well, we went on dates, and then we did fun stuff with the kids.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2

Like, we rented an rv. We did an RV trip, you know, and I didn't want to do it because it's gonna cost money. And there's some of the greatest memories we've ever had.

Speaker 1

Making memories is really big for us. And it was when our kids were little.

Speaker 2

We had woods behind our house. We put a tent in the middle of the woods, and we slept out there on Friday nights sometimes.

My oldest son, who's now in it with a serpent image, literally got an extension cord. Three or four, 500 of them. He brought a TV out into the woods. We're like, we're not watching TV.

Speaker 1

We watched a war movie.

Speaker 2

Let's watch war movies out here and pretend we're cowboys. In there.

Speaker 1

So then in the middle of the night, we're in the middle of these woods, and in Michigan, there's so many deer, and you can hear this snorting sound.

Speaker 2

Did you know deers do that?

Speaker 1

You guys, I'm scared too much.

Speaker 3

I thought it was like a wild boar.

Speaker 1

I mean.

Speaker 4

And then after the war movie and you're in the tent.

Speaker 1

Yes, Arlene. So we're all in the tent.

Speaker 2

I didn't even want to look out. I was like, I don't want to see this.

Speaker 1

All I can envision is this buck with his big. And it's in the fall, so he's got his.

Speaker 2

And you think they're gonna rush antlers. Like, what's this tent doing in my woods? And they're gonna rush us, and we.

Speaker 1

So what do you do? You laugh. You either laugh or you cry. And we laugh. It's awful. So I think that's true laughter.

Speaker 2

Let's talk about 10 questions to diagnose the health of your marriage.

Speaker 3

Was that one of them?

Speaker 5

No.

Speaker 2

No.

Speaker 3

We haven't even gotten to that one.

Speaker 2

That was just part of it. That's the 11th one. I guess the first one Kevin mentions is. Do you pray together? Healthy marriages pray together. Yes.

Speaker 3

What do you guys think?

Speaker 5

Not enough.

Speaker 3

Not enough? No.

Speaker 4

If it makes you feel any better, I would answer that way, too. Not enough.

Speaker 1

Why?

Speaker 3

Well, go ahead and answer that way then.

Speaker 4

I will. I will.

Speaker 2

We do it about four times a day. So you guys are just losers. No, we do not.

Speaker 1

Here's my question. Why do you think couples don't pray together?

Speaker 2

Couples.

Speaker 1

Why do you think couples.

Speaker 5

I like how he pointed out.

Speaker 2

Like, crazy laughter.

Speaker 1

Why do you think?

Speaker 2

We gotta keep that in. Don't edit that out.

Speaker 1

Why do you think couples don't pray together?

Speaker 5

Busyness.

Speaker 1

Tired.

Speaker 3

We're not too busy to watch a new series.

Speaker 1

See?

Speaker 2

Play Crossword.

Speaker 3

Holier than that.

Speaker 5

It doesn't take effort to pray.

Speaker 1

But why does prayer feel like effort? It's just talking.

Speaker 5

I don't know.

Speaker 3

It's intimate.

Speaker 5

It just does.

Speaker 1

I think that's it. Yep, it's intimate.

Speaker 2

We're having a day here. What do you mean, intimate?

Speaker 3

It's like, I gotta, like.

Speaker 5

It feels like a chore.

Speaker 3

Expose myself. She exposes herself, like. Yeah. Praying to God. That's.

Speaker 5

I don't mind the intimacy to opening your soul. It's something that has to be done. So if it has to be done, then it feels like a chore to me.

Speaker 1

Oh, maybe that's how you feel. Do you feel like That.

Speaker 2

I can't say that on air.

Speaker 5

There's so much in my life that has to be done that it's like another thing that has to be done. And I'm like, I don't want to do it. I want to do what I want to do for once today.

Speaker 1

Oh, there's something.

Speaker 4

So then it's maybe like, how do you make it an on the way kind of thing? Not like a thing you have to do, but, like, on the way from point A to point B, I'm talking to God.

Speaker 5

I mean, obviously, there's a heart issue of I need to reorient so that it is something that I want, you know, something that I really want.

Speaker 1

So do you pray during the day? Just throughout the day. Like, lord, this is terrible. So you'll do it alone?

Speaker 5

On my own, yeah.

Speaker 2

Now, let me ask the ladies this. I've got three of them here. This is me and Bruce asking. Bruce doesn't know what I'm gonna ask.

But do you women feel like when your husband prays or even leads, like, hey, let's pray, is it romantic? Is there something about it that's, like, romantically stimulating toward your man?

Speaker 4

I will say yes, because it's like, oh, this is the man I fell in love with. One thing I really liked about James, when we were dating, was that he was very spiritually passionate. You know, like, he'd pray and he'd worship, and you just felt like, wow, you really love God. So I really liked that.

To go back to your earlier question of why we sometimes don't pray, I think as women, we might be waiting for the man to lead in prayer. We don't want to feel like, "I'm the wife, and I'm so spiritual and I'm so godly." Women tend to engage in more spiritual activities; we read, we journal, and we do these things.

But, you know, praying—whether you're in the car or somewhere else—doesn't matter how you pray; it's just as spiritual. So we're waiting for the man to lead, and then the man is thinking, "Oh, I'm not going to do it good enough, like the way my wife wants me to do it." He might feel he doesn't have time to read, study, and do all this stuff, so he just decides not to do it at all. I think there's a little bit of that, too.

Speaker 1

Maria, what was going on in your head? Because your face revealed something different.

Speaker 5

I have to have an honest moment here of. That's. That's not.

There are other spiritual things that he does that are attractive and romantic, like, you were talking to me.

But a lot of times when he decides he wants to do those things, it's when we're in bed at night and I'm, like, so tired. It's not what I want to do right then.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Are you okay with him just praying over you?

Speaker 5

Yeah, I would be, but that's. Usually he wants to pray together.

Speaker 3

A lot of times I just pray. I'll say, let's pray, but it's really just me praying, Right?

Speaker 5

That's true.

Speaker 3

I think. What happened. We used to pray more before we had kids. We pray as a family way more than we pray as a couple.

Speaker 1

Oh, that's good.

Speaker 3

And I think in my head, I'm like, yeah, we prayed at the dinner table. Like, she was there. So we prayed together, you know, but it's not the same.

Speaker 1

Interesting.

Speaker 2

You know the stats, right, on couples that pray. It's staggering. Couples that pray together daily? Well, no, on a regular basis. Once, you know, two or three times, probably a week. Divorce rate is 1 in 1152.

Speaker 3

That's crazy.

Speaker 2

It's just, you know, 50% that's motivating. 23% divorce rate in the church, 1 in 1152. It's just like, there must be something there.

It's like, well, there's a spiritual thing going on. If you're going to be that intimate to say, we're going to do this three or four times, maybe seven times, whatever.

But regularly. This is part of our thing. It's.

Speaker 1

And our prayers are quick.

Speaker 2

They're sorting.

Speaker 3

What does it look like for Dave and Ann Wilson? Give us a little insight.

Speaker 1

Don't hold us to any pedestal, but it used to look like this. We'd be getting ready, getting in bed. I can tell Dave's getting tired. And so I'd be thinking, oh, he's gonna pray. He's the pastor, after all, of the church, of thousands of people.

Speaker 2

I prayed for all the people that day.

Speaker 1

And then he falls asleep. And then I'm like, oh, well, he could pray for them, but he can't pray for us or me. And then I have this resentment going on within me.

And I realized. And so then, if nobody prays, who wins? Satan, basically. That's how I see it. I'm more black and white.

And so we talked about that. And Dave, I mean, you still fall asleep sometimes, but who cares who prays or who falls asleep?

Speaker 2

Let's Just pray.

Speaker 1

Yeah, let's just pray. And it's quick, so it'd be like, lord, we love you. Thanks for today, Lord. We're really like, this is keeping me up. Here's what's going on. It's not even three minutes.

Speaker 2

No. It's very short. And sometimes we've had seasons where we got on our knees and just say, hey, let's do this for a month. That's pretty cool. And Sometimes those are 30 seconds. Sometimes there were two minutes.

Speaker 1

And when Dave comes in and he's already on his knees to me, that is so rewarding.

Speaker 2

She has never not jumped on her knees beside me. Like, boom, right there.

Speaker 1

I'm like, are we praying together? I feel like we're going to battle. Like, we going to battle.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 1

Let's get in there together.

Speaker 2

I remember one time, I think I've maybe stared at. We have, like, a studio at home, and it was during COVID and I had the door shut, so it's upstairs. It used to be a bedroom.

And I grabbed my acoustic. I'm like, bless the Lord. Oh, my soul. Bam, the door.

Speaker 1

I'm in the kitchen.

Speaker 2

Are we worshiping? Yeah, let's go. I'm like, I sort of want to have a moment by myself. She's, like, all over it. Like, I guess we are.

Speaker 1

You've never done it again. It makes me so.

Speaker 2

I do it real quiet now.

Speaker 4

That's terrible.

Speaker 2

But there's something, I think, in that, at least for us, I think you tell me if women feel this way, but there's something when you're spiritually moving together, that there's something happening good in your marriage. Right. That's gotta be true.

Speaker 4

It's like gelling you together.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 4

Like, you feel like it's working. It's. We're closer.

Speaker 2

It could be the word. It could be reading the Bible. You could be praying, you could be singing. Anything that you're going vertical, I think connects a couple.

Speaker 1

But I will say, Dave, when we're not doing well, I do not want to pray. I don't want to pray with you. I don't even want to pray.

Because God, the truth of who he is, it confronts your soul, and it makes you. You already know.

Like, we need to resolve something. How does it look for you guys? Arlene, you and James?

Speaker 4

Yeah. So it can be that separate prayer first, right? That you're just praying. Like, "God, help me to forgive. God, help me to be nice. God, help me to see it how he's seeing it." And then coming back together, you know?

And so I do have those quick bathroom prayers, you know, that you go quick in the bathroom: "Lord, help me not be mad. Show me why am I mad?" And really, you know, asking yourself, "Why are you unhappy, oh my soul?" It's like asking yourself, what is it about that that set me off? What is it that he needs to know that he's not understanding? Because a lot of times, it's misunderstanding, right? So it's like, what do I need to communicate more clearly?

But it is, you see it in the gospels, right? "Go make it right with the person and then come back to me and offer your offering." So I do see it like keeping the marriage in sync is part of your worship. Like, "Lord, I want to make it right with this person so I can now make it right with you."

And of course, as much as it depends on you, you do it. The other person might not be working with you, but you're only doing your part. But it's true, though, a soft heart towards your spouse helps you then have a soft heart towards God. When you're hard-hearted towards your spouse, you're hard-hearted towards God because you don't want to talk to him about what's happening. So there is a correlation there.

Speaker 1

Dave and I were in this big fight. I was going on a trip and he was supposed to fix.

Speaker 2

I'm thinking, which one?

Speaker 3

I'm thinking, what did Dave do?

Speaker 1

He was supposed to fix the headlight on this car. And I was gonna drive five hours. And I had given him like a month or two. I'm like, hey, we've gotta get that.

Speaker 3

Head fixed a little amount of time, huh?

Speaker 1

A month or two every time.

Speaker 2

Like, yeah, I'll get to it. I'll get to it.

Speaker 1

And I know that I can't go have it fixed. Cause it would cost too much money and he would want to fix it himself.

So the day of this event where I'm leaving, the kids are little, I come home and I have to take the car he's in. So he gets out, I throw my bags in the car, I get in the driver's seat, kiss him.

I'm like, hey, you fixed the headlight, right? And he goes, oh, I totally forgot. And I just looked at him like, you are unbelievable.

Speaker 2

She was terrified.

Speaker 1

I was so mad. And so I leave and I can see him in my mirror. I can see him saying, and the boys are little. Like car seat little.

Speaker 2

The youngest, I'm literally throwing them in the car.

Speaker 1

I'm throwing them in this minivan; follow me to Kmart. He's not even putting him in a car seat. And I'm like, look at him. See, that's who I married. Look at him. And I'm driving, and I am so mad.

And when I vent, I can vent to God about it. Like, can you believe that, Lord? Look at him. Like, look, he doesn't even care. I've given him two months. I do everything.

And then I hear this little voice. What are you gonna be speaking on? This is in my head. What are you gonna be speaking on this weekend to these women? About how your husband doesn't meet all your needs and Jesus can meet your needs.

And you know what I do? I turn on the radio really loud because I'm like, I don't wanna hear what God says right now.

Speaker 4

I'm not ready.

Speaker 1

Like, lord, I was venting to you. I was venting to you, but I wanna hear what you have to say.

Speaker 3

And then it was on Caleb. And you're like.

Speaker 1

But anyway, I think when my heart gets hard, the last thing I wanna do is pray.

Speaker 3

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1

Because God confronts our sin and brokenness.

Speaker 3

It's like instant.

Speaker 1

Like, instant God.

Speaker 3

Oh, okay. I see where I'm wrong.

Speaker 1

Oh, it's me again.

Speaker 3

Like, I'm going into prayer, like, certain it's 100% her fault. And then, Lord, oh.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

Or if you have a sin that you need to confess. I know you guys never have any.

Speaker 3

But I can imagine that that's hard. There can be.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 2

I mean, that prevents you. It's like a blockage because you're right. You said earlier, Bruce, it's intimate. It's like. It's hard to fake it.

Speaker 1

Okay, let's go into the next one. Do you still notice each other? Physical attraction matters. Do you still see and appreciate your spouse's appearance?

Speaker 2

When I read that yesterday, I thought, I believe you're stunning.

Speaker 1

Oh, my.

Speaker 2

See, here we go. That's what she does. She is.

Speaker 4

She is stunning.

Speaker 2

I believe that. I believe from the day I dated her, I thought, she's the hottest thing I ever saw. And I feel the same way now. And I don't say it a lot. I mean, I say it now. She's like, please don't even say it. And look at that reaction. Even when I say it, I think you're beautiful. She said, no, I'm not. I get this. I get this. I get this. I need to hear this. I'm like, I just think you're beautiful. I'm not just making it up.

And even the other night, laying in this tent doing this camping marriage thing, I look over and I'm like, this is amazing that she even does this. How many wives would say, I'm not doing this. I'm getting a house? And I'm not saying good or bad. I'm just like, my wife is willing to do it. And you look great. And I believe that.

So I'm just thinking, do we say that?

Speaker 1

You watching on YouTube?

Speaker 2

Like, no, when I read that screen.

Speaker 3

That's the screenshot.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Oh, yeah, don't use that.

Speaker 2

Please put a picture of us in high school, whatever. But notice each other. I see it, but I don't say it enough.

Speaker 1

What do you guys think about that?

Speaker 5

I was gonna say I notice him, but I feel like a lot of times he doesn't notice me.

Speaker 3

I don't say it nearly enough. Yeah. And I notice sometimes I'll say it to the girls, you know, and she'll be like, where's my love? You know?

Speaker 1

Does that matter to you, Maria? Yes, it does.

Speaker 5

It does.

Speaker 1

And when he doesn't, what do you feel? What goes through your mind?

Speaker 5

I just, you know, you have all the thoughts of like, well, I must not be attractive anymore, or I don't know.

Speaker 3

Yeah, it's a thing right now in our marriage. I think if we wanna get real talk of, like, at least for me, an insecurity is like, you know, that I like your hair down.

And it's an insecurity. But I'm always like, if she loved me, she'd wear it down more often.

And so I'm always asking you, can you wear your hair down?

Speaker 5

Pull your hair out.

Speaker 3

Pull your hair up.

Speaker 5

It drives me insane.

Speaker 3

And it drives her nuts.

Speaker 5

I'm wiping butts. I'm, you know, washing dishes. I'm cleaning pee off the floor. Like, I'm doing all these things. I don't have time to pull my hair down. And it's getting in my way.

Like. And then. But then it's like, I feel like, oh, well, he doesn't think I'm pretty if I don't pull my hair down.

Speaker 4

Oh, this is so good. Because this is exactly right how it is. Because for you, it'd be like. For Maria, it's like, I need to put my hair up to do the thing. And then for Bruce, it's like, oh, but I just love it so much when your hair is down.

Speaker 5

So it's more than that. It's more than that because he makes it a love issue. Because he says, if you love Me you would do this. Like, he's said that before.

Speaker 3

Well, and it's not right. It's how I feel. It's wrong, but it's not wrong.

Speaker 5

It feels like such a small thing that you could do that makes me feel loved.

And so then it makes me feel like on top of everything else, where I feel like I'm failing something else that I'm failing because I can't pull my hair down or remember to pull my hair down, I'm failing you again.

Speaker 1

And so I would probably feel like not to not be on your side, Bruce. But, like, does that mean I'm ugly when my hair's.

Speaker 5

Exactly. Yeah. So I'm not pretty. Like, that's what I was saying. Like, then I feel like, well, I'm not pretty. He doesn't think I'm pretty unless I pull my hair down. Yeah.

Speaker 1

And so if I want to be somewhat attractive to him, I need to have my hair down. And right now, I don't care about being attractive. I just need to get my kid to go to sleep.

Speaker 2

How do you help that?

Speaker 3

Come look, I'm not here to defend myself on this.

Speaker 1

I know you're not for sure.

Speaker 3

I mean, you have every right. I mean, you have every right not to be bothered about it. So I'm not gonna defend myself one bit. It's not right.

Speaker 4

We need to give kudos to Bruce.

Speaker 1

I know, for being able to say this.

Speaker 4

Like, that's kind of a big thing. And then we're gonna retrain you, Bruce, to, like, have all these pictures of Maria with her hair up. And for you to be like, oh.

Speaker 1

I like it that way.

Speaker 4

So it's almost like a learning. Like, I'm gonna learn out of love how to like your hair this way. And then for you, Maria, that out of love, that you'll be like, oh, it's date night. Hairs down.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 4

You know, and I think she does always do that.

Speaker 3

It's not like she's.

Speaker 5

You try to remember before he gets home at least to pull the hair tie out. But I don't always remember even makeup.

Speaker 1

Like, when you have little kids, it's the last thing you're thinking about. But then, like, when you're blonde and you have no eyebrows and no eyelashes, and you're like. You can't even see your eyes.

And it was. I don't know. I think my sister wore makeup. And so I got into the habit of that, of not doing it all the time.

But sometimes, like, is that important? It's that same kind of thing.

Speaker 5

Yeah. And there have been times where he's like, well, you always put on makeup when you're going out or you're gonna go see other people, but how come you don't put on makeup for me? You know?

And so not a lot more. I need to do it more, but I will try to just put something.

Speaker 2

And on the other side. Bruce, you need to get her out. Get her out of the house.

Speaker 3

You're right.

Speaker 2

You know, call it hair out, hair down.

Speaker 3

I love that. Yeah, that's great. That's a great.

Speaker 1

And I will say, too, as we get older, as why I scoffed, because I thought, like, I'm just gonna get more mature and more okay with my physical appearance. And I was like that for a while.

And then you start getting older and it gets harder and harder. And so when Dave says, oh, you look so good, I'm like, no, I don't. I look like I'm 90 years old. You know?

So I think it's something. There's something about receiving the compliment as well, which is really healthy. Arlene, you're shaking your head.

Speaker 4

I was thinking of the whole noticing thing, because it's true. You just. They just blend in.

Like, your spouse just blends into the whole scene of whatever's happening in your house, and you really do not notice them.

Like, I will say that, while my kids were little, I was noticing my kids.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 4

Because they're growing. They need stuff. They're always changing. And then your spouse is the same. So you're like, I already got that. I already saw that.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 4

So you do have to go back. And I think that's what the, like, once a year, one day getaway does. It's like, what that does is, like, it brings you back to notice each other again. To notice. Because you go through phases where it's like, we're not really noticing.

So it is, like, thinking it through. Like, I have to do this on purpose. Like, sometimes even, like, you know, it used to be, of course when you were dating, you would look at each other for a long time, and it's not a big deal. Like you're falling in love. But now if you look at each other like, what.

Speaker 1

Why are you. Why are you looking at me?

Speaker 4

Do I fucking in my hair? Like, what?

Speaker 1

Do I have something in my teeth?

Speaker 4

Yeah. Something wrong?

And so sometimes I will just even try. Like, James will be in the kitchen, and I will just on purpose, like, glance at him a little more. Just as, like, a little exercise for myself to be like, "Let me just actually really look at you," you know? It's just like a few seconds, but just this thought of, like, "Oh, I wanna notice you."

And I'm the kind of person, too, I don't notice things. Like, my husband can trim all. It was funny. He had trimmed all of our palm trees. We're in San Diego. He had spent four hours trimming all the palm trees, but I don't notice that at all. So I came home, and I think I did, like, the dishes or something.

And he came in and I was like... And he asked me to do something. And I was like, "I'm not gonna do that. I just did the dishes." And he was like, "I did the palm trees for four hours this morning." And I was like, "Oh, I didn't even notice that you did that. You win. I should do the chore because you've done that for four hours."

We don't notice what the other person does. So I think that idea of, like, "Okay, I'm gonna notice what you do," that goes a long way.

Speaker 5

I think I was gonna say, I think that is more of what you would want is for me to notice what you're doing. You don't really care if I notice you, how you look. The physical part, that doesn't really mean much to you.

Speaker 3

Well, you know, we're gonna have Gary Chapman in here tomorrow, but who needs him? I'll just explain it all. It's a love language thing where I think you really like words of affirmation. You receive love that way, and I don't so much. And so I don't think to love you that way.

Dave, I love the example that you set just by being so open on this program, because you've talked about that one time that Ann came down the stairs and you thought she just looked drop dead gorgeous, and you just thought it and didn't say it. That happens to me. Like, just the other night, we were on a date on Saturday night and I thought you looked so good. I didn't say a thing. Nope, just thought it.

Speaker 4

So then. See how easy this is? Then all it is is like, wow, you look really beautiful tonight, babe. It's just one thing. And it's like it's a new habit.

Speaker 3

That is a crazy idea.

Speaker 5

And all I need to do is throw my trash away.

Speaker 3

It's that simple.

Speaker 2

Now, I do think it's really important for men, too.

Speaker 1

I was gonna ask, is it important to be noticed? Not for me, but noticed in what way? I think that's A good question.

Speaker 5

That's the thing. Like, if I notice. Cause he'll be like, clean the garage. And I don't care. Like, I don't care about the garage.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I would. I'd be like, look at the garage.

Speaker 5

I don't care about the garage. But like, if I notice, if I say, like, thank you for cleaning the garage or thank you for whatever it is that he did, he appreciates it when I notice the things that he does, not necessarily how he looks.

Speaker 3

Well, I'm with Ann. She'll say, how did I get such a good looking husband? I'm just like, well. Or just like, I don't know why you're like, that's not. Like you're just being funny. You obviously don't mean that. You know, like, that's part of that.

Speaker 1

So the question would be, you love it when I notice. What?

Speaker 3

What?

Speaker 1

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Speaker 2

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Speaker 2

I mean, I. Yeah, I don't care if you think I look. Look good. I'm trying to look good, but look at me. I can't do much. There's not a lot of good.

But no, I mean, even a couple weeks ago, I was preaching and, you know, we stream. So I didn't know she was watching the first service. Going to do four that day. And right at the end of my sermon, she texts. I was talking about how all the disciples were martyred. They weren't all. And I didn't have time to say it. I had a whole chart.

So I started riffing. I get a text before I'm done with the sermon. John wasn't killed. He was boiled in oil.

Speaker 3

Oh. But survived.

Speaker 1

But survived on the island.

Speaker 2

And I didn't remember. I just put them all in one thing and I was gonna. I just ran out of time. But all that to say. And I even Told the congregation, hey, you gotta have a marriage like mine. My wife texts me just to clear it up. John wasn't killed.

Speaker 1

I thought you could correct it before you ended.

Speaker 2

But before I went into the next service, I also get a text that says, this was really, really good. Of all the people in the congregation come up to me, their comments mean nothing. Hers means everything good and bad. But I know she was like, you're good, and you just did a great job. That's a 10 out of 10 to a guy.

Speaker 1

But it says a lot about that. I can do that because I would come to a later service and see it live. But there's something about Dave's like, hey, I really love what you see in my messages and what, you think I should improve. That says a lot about you, even.

Speaker 2

Yeah, but it's the noticing. We really. I say this at men's retreats. No, I say it so women understand this about their man. Your man is still a little boy who's saying, hey, mom, do you see? Do you see?

Speaker 1

Do you see?

Speaker 2

I mean, we aren't, but we sort of are. We're still, like, looking for you to say, you're a good man, you're a husband.

Speaker 3

And I want specifics.

Speaker 2

Yeah, you do.

Speaker 3

If I was preaching that sermon, I'd want her to say that point about this or that man, that was really good.

Speaker 2

And she did.

Speaker 3

I'll play, like, a radio spot for.

Speaker 5

Her because that demonstrates that I was really listening.

Speaker 3

And I want you to, like, just on your own, say, whoa, that little thing right there, that was so cool.

Speaker 1

I always say to Dave, oh, you're fishing now. You want me to go on about it? Like, oh, I used to feel like, really, you need me to. I'm like, now I realize, like, yeah, he does want me to do that.

Speaker 2

Like, that was good. But was it the best you ever heard in your life? That's what it was.

Speaker 3

I mean, just kind of getting down in the weeds. But when I played the trailer for Road to K Luma and you said, so is that supposed to be a trailer or, like, a sample?

Speaker 5

He got so mad at me.

Speaker 3

Yeah, she was so mad at me.

Speaker 5

I was like, what did I do? I don't know what I did.

Speaker 3

I mean, it's. But you're right. It's a little boy insecurity. That's all it is.

Speaker 2

It is.

Speaker 5

I legitimately didn't know what this piece of audio was supposed to be.

Speaker 3

Like, it's a trailer.

Speaker 2

It's a really good one because I.

Speaker 4

Didn'T automatically everybody that worked it as a trailer.

Speaker 1

Arlene, what does James want you to notice?

Speaker 4

What does James want me to notice? I think similar to what Dave is saying, like, with the accomplishments, the things that are being done. Like, it is funny, though, my sweet James, he is trying to hold onto his hair. So he's where? And so he does not give up.

Speaker 2

It's a losing battle unless you want to spend a lot of money.

Speaker 4

So it's like he's working on his appearance in that sense, but he doesn't care. You know, I could notice things, but he doesn't care as much. It's more like, whoa, he loves to walk.

Speaker 5

He did the palm trees.

Speaker 4

He did the palm trees. He would like that. He would. Because he's an acts of service person. So if I notice that you actually did the act of service, which I have completely so acknowledgement of that he really loves respect. So he loves. Like, this is the direction we're going with the family or whatever it is. And I say, wonderful, even if we need to talk about it. But at the end, I back you up. That's huge. That's his thing. Like, I respect you. I'll back you up. That's what he wants me to notice.

Speaker 2

Believe it or not. There's 10 of these. We've covered two. I don't know if we're gonna even get close to 10. But the next one is. Do you hold hands? Hands?

Speaker 5

Yes, we do.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Now you are. We all just did.

Speaker 1

Do you really allow.

Speaker 3

Sometimes it's usually. Unfortunately. I mean, look, I'll just make myself look bad continually. You usually are the one that reaches over.

Speaker 5

I will sometimes physical touch person. So.

Speaker 1

Yeah, but I'm glad that you still reach out.

Speaker 5

And I often bring up, when we were dating, we didn't kiss until our wedding day. And so holding hands was a big deal. So when we'd be in the car and he would reach over and grab my hand.

Speaker 2

Your hands are like kissing.

Speaker 4

He's touching.

Speaker 3

Yeah. One time our elbows touched.

Speaker 1

That's really sweet, though. Do you think? Is it important to you, Maria?

Speaker 5

Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 3

Well, I shared this on the Married with Benefits one about physical. One of the episodes is physical touch. I think I shared it in anyway. It doesn't matter. And we had friends over. And I had heard that day, or read that day, the chapter on physical touch and how important it is and just even putting your hand on her back. So we had friends over. We're playing games. And I remember just thinking, I'll just rub her back. And then at the end of the night, we're cleaning up, friends are gone. You were so sweet tonight. And I was my normal usual. Probably not the nicest person. You know, I was a jerk. I'm sure. But somehow, because I put my.

Speaker 1

It's true.

Speaker 3

She's like, you were so sweet tonight. Okay.

Speaker 4

It's like, learn, right? Yes.

Speaker 5

I haven't done it since, but no.

Speaker 1

There is something really powerful about that. I feel like that, too.

Speaker 2

And I think couples over years. Stop.

Speaker 1

Arlene.

Speaker 4

I was gonna say we don't do it. Yeah, we don't do it. We do it. He'll grab my hand. At church when the prayer is happening, he takes my hand, which I really like. I am not a physical touch person, so it doesn't, like, bother me as much. You know what I'm saying? Like, it doesn't speak as much. But, like, if we're going on a date, like, then we will maybe hold hands to, like, to the do and out the door and that kind of thing. But on a regular basis, not as much. So it is a really simple way. And it does take, like, a reminder. Like, even here in studio, we're talking about it. So that's when Bruce and Maria took hands. Cause it's like, we're talking about it. So you take hands. So even just listening to this conversation, usually we need a cue. When you're falling in love, you need no cue. Cause you're just, like. Just, like, so attracted to each other. But later you need cues like, oh, let me take your hand. Now let me hold hands.

Speaker 1

When Dave does that, I notice every single time he doesn't. Like, I feel like sometimes you're like, don't touch my feet or don't. You know, I could be like, oh. And he could care less. But especially coming from sexual abuse and never in my life being touched, except for sexual kind of abuse. Because my family wasn't affectionate. So I really noticed. Just healthy, like, rubbing my back, holding my hand. And it does mean so much. And so I would say this for our listeners. Put it in your phone. If it doesn't come natural, put it as a reminder in your phone.

Speaker 4

Hold hands.

Speaker 1

Hold hands.

Speaker 5

It's interesting. Cause it's like we are so polar opposite in that he does not want to be touched. Yes, he does not want to be touched.

Speaker 3

Especially if it's, like, repetitive. Just like.

Speaker 5

Like rubbing the bag.

Speaker 3

Oh, are you almost done?

Speaker 5

Please stop.

Speaker 1

Please stop. But so for you, it wouldn't come natural to do that.

Speaker 3

No.

Speaker 1

Yeah. For Maria, how would you feel, though.

Speaker 3

If I had a reminder. Does that bother you at all?

Speaker 1

No, it wouldn't bother me.

Speaker 4

Like, good.

Speaker 1

Put that.

Speaker 4

I'll put it in there for you.

Speaker 2

Hey, let me ask you this one. It's not in here, but it's in the same category. Do you ever kiss?

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Like, just kiss without, you know, sex or anything else.

Speaker 5

The funny thing is, what's helped us with that, I think what's made it a thing for us is bluey. There's an episode of Bluey called Smoochy Kiss. And they like, ah. You know, the kids freak out when their parents have a smoochie kiss. And so we'll do that now. Be like, smoochie kiss.

Speaker 3

And then all our girls go, ahh. And I go, you like it? You'd hate it if we didn't.

Speaker 1

Ew. I love the smoochie. And you know what? They'll never forget that. Because for kids, that's total security. My mom and dad love each other. What about you?

Speaker 4

Years ago, I interviewed Clifford and Joyce Penner. So they wrote the Gift of Sex, these sex therapists. And my husband was so excited, like, oh, my goodness, you're talking to the sex therapist. I'm so happy. He couldn't believe it. So. And they suggested the 5 to 30 second kiss every day. And they said it's to keep the pilot light lit between you, and that it's clear that it is not the ghost signal. Cause that was the big joke. Like, every. The woman doesn't want to give the 5 to 30 second kiss. Because then the right. Not every woman. Because then the man thinks, oh, this is the ghost signal. And the woman's just like, I just want to show love. So you kind of have like, a little chat about it.

Speaker 1

It's the pilot light.

Speaker 4

You're saying it's the pilot light to keep that lit. And so whenever we hear things like this, then we're like, oh, go back to the daily kiss. But then once somebody gets sick and you're like, oh, don't kiss me. Don't kiss me. And then you get out of the habit. So one day, like, when we have the little kids, James made a chart. He put a chart on the refrigerator of boxes. And we were supposed to check off with the kissing. Like, we were supposed to check off every box if we kissed.

Speaker 2

That sounds so unromantic.

Speaker 4

It was so fun.

Speaker 1

I love it. I would love it.

Speaker 4

And it was like, you know, with our kids and stuff, and then she could stand.

Speaker 3

Our kids get stamps.

Speaker 5

We need to have our grown up stamps.

Speaker 1

You can have smoochie kids. You should.

Speaker 4

And one of our kids asked, like, what it was, and I wasn't smart enough. I hadn't thought of an answer. So I was like, oh, that's Daddy and I's kissing chart. And it was just like, okay, that's our kissing chart.

Speaker 3

And since then, you didn't know you were dubbing it forever what it was called.

Speaker 2

Here's the next one. When did you last say I'm sorry? All the time. Really?

Speaker 3

Yeah. I don't think we have trouble.

Speaker 5

No.

Speaker 1

Arlene. Is that important, do you think?

Speaker 4

Yes. To be able to. To own it, like, instead of being like, well, it's your fault. I wouldn't have done that if you did that, you know, so really being quick to be like, oh, I'm sorry. And sometimes like, we as women were, you know how, like, you're the. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Like, we say it too many times, so sometimes we don't have to say it so much. But it. But being willing to say, like, I.

Speaker 2

Mean, is it different than I'm wrong or I was wrong?

Speaker 4

It's the same vein.

Speaker 5

Right.

Speaker 4

You're just like, I was wrong.

Speaker 5

It can be. Because sometimes we'll be like, I'm sorry you felt that way. Like, I didn't do anything wrong, but I'm sorry you felt that way.

Speaker 2

Like, it's not an apology.

Speaker 3

I don't remember doing that that often.

Speaker 5

I'll do it.

Speaker 3

I remember hearing Tim Keller's wife, I think her name's Kathleen, and she was talking about how sometimes, though, Tim would apologize too quickly and she's like, no, that's not fair. You can't just immediately apologize. And that's interesting. I mean, have you ever felt that where it's almost like you're getting off the hook too easily, like, oh, we don't have to deal with it anymore.

Speaker 1

If it hadn't been resolved. Like, it's not time for apologies. You're just trying to get out of it.

Speaker 3

Exactly.

Speaker 1

Trying to get out of the resolution of figuring it out.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And I think I'm probably guilty of that as well.

Speaker 1

I think people. What is that called in conflict styles? It's the win yield, lose yield. It's a yielder. I'm sorry. You're right. You know, right.

Speaker 3

Like, well, no, no, no. We need to hash this out and then we'll apologize. But you can't just jump there because I haven't gotten to like, really share why that was making me feel this way? I mean, have you ever felt that for me, where I jumped? Yeah.

Speaker 1

Really?

Speaker 3

Are you sure?

Speaker 2

100%.

Speaker 4

Are you sure?

Speaker 5

Yeah. No, because I am a feeler. And so. So it's important to me when he's leaving work or when we're going to bed. I want to leave on an up note. I don't want to go to bed upset because then I can't sleep. And obviously sleep is not coming easily to me right now anyways. With little ones. But. So I'll be like, you forgive me? Come on. You forgive me? Because I want peace so that I.

Speaker 3

Can go to sleep.

Speaker 2

I'll be leaving for work.

Speaker 3

She's like, seriously, you're just going to leave for work like this?

Speaker 5

And that just makes it even worse. He's just like, whatever, I don't want to talk about it.

Speaker 4

Right.

Speaker 5

Cause it takes him time to, like.

Speaker 1

Process it and flip the switch.

Speaker 3

Well. And you're the one that doesn't want to go to sleep until we've resolved it.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 5

And you're like, you're not really sorry. You just want to have peace so you can go to sleep. It's not about, you know, whether or.

Speaker 1

Not you're totally the resolution of that or.

Speaker 4

And I know you're going to have Dr. Chapman on, and he does the five languages of apology. We included it in that Screen Kids book, but it's. I don't know if I'll remember all five, but it's. It's expressing regret. It's restitution. Like, how can I make this right? Asking for forgiveness. Will you forgive me? That's about as good as I can do. There's two more, but it is.

Speaker 1

Those are really good, though.

Speaker 4

But it is this idea that it's not just, I'm sorry, but I, you know, I acknowledge what I've done. I will not do this again in the future. I'll do my best to not do it again in the future. And will you forgive me? Oh, and is there something I can do to make it up to you? Like, is restitution, so these different phases to make it feel like, oh, you really are sorry.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Yeah. We skip that a lot, so. And that's probably when I'm not actually sorry. Just want to get it resolved.

Speaker 1

I'm the one that probably has always had the harder time apologizing to Dave. I'm quick to apologize to our kids, but to me in my life, that revealed the pridefulness. Like, that's a pridefulness. To that be able to say I'm sorry. You're really quick. Quick to do it, I think. And Dave.

Speaker 2

Make more mistakes. No, I need to say it a lot.

Speaker 1

I don't think so. But I remember thinking, why is this so hard for me to apologize? And it's pride. Yeah. I think you guys all think apology is really important.

Speaker 4

It's how you repair relationships. Like, if something's broken, that. That does the trick.

Speaker 3

But an actual apology, like what you were talking about, and that it takes work and humility. Those are so easy.

Speaker 1

We should talk to Dr. Chapman about those. So you named. Did you hit four of them, though?

Speaker 4

Maybe.

Speaker 2

That's pretty good.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I think that's good.

Speaker 2

All right. When's the last time you said thank you, by the way? We're halfway done.

Speaker 3

Five.

Speaker 2

That's only number five.

Speaker 5

I think we do that. I don't know when the last time was, but.

Speaker 1

Say you guys should feel good about yourselves.

Speaker 3

Look at us. And I do it more now that we have a newborn. Like I said, having the newborn has actually helped our marriage because we're in a really good place, because we're at the. It's easier for me to see how much you're doing. So this is not anything on you. It's on me. Like, even I can't be blind to what you're doing now.

Speaker 5

You know, here's the thing, though. I feel like there has been a change, because even with three, I was still doing almost as much.

Speaker 3

Now you were doing nothing. But now that we have a newborn.

Speaker 5

Especially when we had just moved and I'm unpacking the house.

Speaker 3

Yeah. No, but I. Yeah, it goes right.

Speaker 5

Over my head, but I feel like, like, now more than ever, you have been noticing. And that for me, just frees me to be, like. I don't know it emotionally. It frees me to focus on loving you. Well, because I don't feel like I'm constantly trying to make sure that I get seen.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

That's sweet.

Speaker 3

But I think you do a really good job saying thank you.

Speaker 5

Well, thanks.

Speaker 1

What about me?

Speaker 4

You just.

Speaker 1

What about you, Arlene?

Speaker 4

When James took me to the airport to bring me here, so that would have been the last time. Thank you for coming early and thanks for bringing me to the airport. And he is very sweet. Like, he put in a note in the suitcase, and I like it for this trip. He did for this trip. And it was like, I know you've been working hard with your book and promoting it, and I believe in you 100% and that was like, that goes a long way. That goes a long way.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it sure does.

Speaker 1

And. And I'm telling you, it doesn't take that much time to do those little things. And for me, I think it's pride that wouldn't do it. I think what I used to think was, well, what did he do for me? Doesn't matter. It's, what did Jesus do for me? That's what matters. And so, as a result of that and my worship to him, I'm going to love Dave and respect him in a way that it'll communicate to him that I do. But, man, those little things go a long way. I think that's important.

Speaker 2

Well, it's interesting, Niece. You know, we're talking about diagnostics. You say, I'm sorry. Do you say, thank you. Here's the next one we haven't gotten to yet. Do you surprise each other?

Speaker 5

Yeah. So one thing I did is a lot of times Bruce will take the girls to Sam's club for dinner because it's cheap.

Speaker 1

Oh, it's so cheap. I just did that with our grandkids.

Speaker 5

They have a dairy. Their hot dog is dairy free, so it's safe for Estelle. And so, you know, once a week, sometimes maybe twice a month.

Speaker 3

Also, I like their frozen yogurt. So it's like, hey, I'll do this for you, honey.

Speaker 5

So he takes all the girls, all of them to Sam's for dinner so I can have a couple hours to myself. And so one night, I packed all the girls in the car, got the house all tidy because he can't relax if the house is not tidy, and left the house before he got home from work. So that when he got home from work, there was nobody there. And it was just quiet and clean. And he could have.

Speaker 3

Sometimes it is so weird to be home with nobody else there.

Speaker 2

It's your future.

Speaker 5

So he could watch a movie 50 years from now. Crank speakers.

Speaker 3

Crank the five. Yeah.

Speaker 1

What a sweet gift.

Speaker 3

It was so sweet.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

I really. It was my love language. No, but I mean, the fact that you did it at all is amazing.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's really sweet.

Speaker 2

That's cool.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And if you set the bar really low, I find. If I set the bar really low, then it makes surprises that much easier. You're like, oh, you were considerate.

Speaker 1

We haven't done that kind of thing in a while. Surprise each other. What about our.

Speaker 4

Yeah, I would have to kind of scratch my head and be like, when did I surprise James? When did he surprise me? Because it's like you're. You're so planned out. Like, I'm a much. I'm not a spontaneous person.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 4

So I'd have to really work on that. So I'm gonna.

Speaker 2

We just did it.

Speaker 5

My question though is, was it talking about like actual planned surprises or was it talking about like spontaneous. Are you surprised by your spouse? Like how they.

Speaker 4

I think you're doing something. Surprise them.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 4

It could be like a node. It could.

Speaker 1

Yours was totally like the first. First.

Speaker 5

The way I took it at first was like, oh, yeah. I've been so surprised at how like. Like I was talking about with how he sees everything that I do since the baby came. Like how like accommodating and kind he's been with, like giving me time to myself and pushing me out the door to go do things with girlfriends or whatever. Because he sees everything that I do. And that has surprised me because it hasn't gone through my life.

Speaker 4

Oh, that is legit. That answers, that does answer the question.

Speaker 1

Speak to the husband listener who's not doing that. Like, why? What's compelling you? What's helping you to do that?

Speaker 3

I mean, part of it is like Brent Hanson, when he talks about, you're the keeper of the garden. That's what the man does in the relationship. And just thinking, okay, I want her to flourish as my wife. And she does so well when she's with her friends. You know, it's just how she's wired. So, yeah, I just want to see her flourish.

Speaker 1

That's really sweet.

Speaker 2

I mean, we were driving not too long ago. You said, we don't do this, I'm going to stick up for us. We were driving to our hometown in Ohio, coming from a trip, and we pulled in. There's a burger place there called Wilson's Hamburgers. Everybody used to think we started it and it's where Wendy's came from. It's that hamburger and the Frosty. And we were driving through the drive through because we're like, we're going through Findlay. We gotta get a Wilson's hamburger.

Speaker 1

That's where we both grew up.

Speaker 2

And Adiz's ice cream, it's the best ice cream in the country. And I'm in the drive through and I look across this downtown little, little town, 40,000 people. And there's this new hotel. It's been there a while, but it's gorgeous. I mean, really high end called the Hancock Hotel. And I'm like, let's spend the night. We don't have to be home. Tonight, of course we don't have kids like you guys. We're empty nesters. She's like, why we're not spending the night? Why not? We can sleep in, get home tomorrow by noon. We're like an hour and a half from.

Speaker 1

We didn't do it because I'm like, I cannot enjoy it right now because I'm not as fun spontaneous CC is. But we went home and then we planned to come back a week later.

Speaker 2

And we came back on a Thursday night and I think we, we might have shared this, but when we pulled back into Finley and again we, we did book the hotel. Really nice room and where we're gonna eat that night. And before we went to the hotel, we stopped at every significant place in our dating relationship and in our growing.

Speaker 1

Up relationship because we both pretty cool. But when we got to and that was a surprise, we went to the cemetery where his little brother was buried. Yeah, he was five years old when he died. And so we got out and Dave had done this every week with your mom.

Speaker 2

You'd go growing up and Anne's like, you're not going to know where his grave is. I'm like, ding, ding, ding. Here it is. It was pouring down rain too. We just stood there and looked at it. She didn't know. I went there every week with my mom. And I remember as a kid thinking, mom, this is stupid. What are we doing? And now I realize it wasn't stupid.

Speaker 1

But even to have those conversations, like what did you feel like as a seven year old when that was your little five year old brother, you know? And we went to the schools where we each went to school and we talked about our highlights and our. The low moments of the school and where we had our first date on the tennis court. It was so sweet. And that was just a like man just to take the time. It was a day and one night.

Speaker 2

That was a great dream trip.

Speaker 4

My goodness.

Speaker 2

Do that, folks. Do that. Figure out a way to do something significantly special and surprising and maybe take.

Speaker 1

Our little diagnostic test.

Speaker 2

All right, so we'll do one more marriage diagnostic. We've done six. Kevin DeYoung wrote this blog and you can get that in the show notes if you want to see all 10. I think ours is as good as any of them. But you know, here's the last one. When is the last time you embarrass the kids together? Together being playful and silly with your spouse shows love and provides a positive example for your children.

Speaker 5

But we kind of talked about that with the smoochie kiss.

Speaker 1

Yeah, we do that.

Speaker 2

That's embarrassing.

Speaker 3

We do. You know, and memorable. I tell my. Our girls, I'm like, you don't understand how weird Maria and I are. Your mom and I are like, my parents were not like this, you know, because we'll do like crazy dance parties or something, you know, or. Or like belt out some 80s ballad or. I'm trying to think. And I was like, you have no idea how normal my parents were. Like, my parents had self dignity. And you know, I have this thing where I will try to mispronounce things as bad as I can, but see if Google will still understand me. So I'll be like, hey Google, what's the furcast? And it'll be like, the forecast today is like, it's still new. Oh, well. But I can't even like, my brain can't even wrap my head around my dad doing that as a. So goofy.

Speaker 5

Being goofy.

Speaker 2

Your dad didn't.

Speaker 3

I mean, he could be goofy sometimes, but for the most part he was pretty.

Speaker 2

How about I embarrassed my. Our kids are adults. It's hard to embarrass adults. Kids remember a couple months last year, they were down here in Florida and Cody with his kids was with you. And I went over to this little play area and there were these high school football team there and they were running routes. I was, you know, I'm an old quarterback. I'm embarrassed and I'm watching them run routes and the guy throwing the ball is terrible. And I. And they had little jerseys on. So I thought these guys play somewhere near. Next thing you know, I'm up there like, you guys need somebody to really throw the ball? They're like, yeah. They look at this old guy give me the ball and I start whipping it and they're like, oh my gosh, you could throw. And they all start line up and Cody comes over and he goes, only dad.

Speaker 1

Wait, we come over, we're in a golf cart, all of us, and our son, who was a receiver in the NFL, sees this, who I threw to.

Speaker 2

Him his whole life.

Speaker 1

You know, we look over and there's Dave in the middle of this field.

Speaker 2

I don't even have shoes on.

Speaker 1

I have bare feet with all these like a line of like 10 high school kids, right? Nobody. He just went up. That's what Cody said. I guarantee Dave went up. Dad went up and said, hey, you guys need me to throw to you, I'll throw.

Speaker 2

I guess that's exactly right.

Speaker 1

And then, I mean, it was like, Cody is like, I'm not surprised one bit. This is who my dad is. Embarrassing, but super cool. And he goes, you know what the crazy thing is? All those kids think he is amazing. Like, he's amazing.

Speaker 2

Cause they were pretty bad.

Speaker 3

But anyway, that must be a dad thing, because my dad, he used to be chief of Fire and Rescue in a little small town that we grew up in. But then, you know, he's retired from that and. But if we saw an accident or something, he'd get out and start helping. Even if he wasn't. No, he wouldn't. I'd be like, dad, I think they've got it covered. He's directing traffic and stuff. So it's like, you know, you just do what you do.

Speaker 1

That's funny. Arlene, do you have any.

Speaker 4

We are always embarrassing our children.

Speaker 1

You are?

Speaker 4

Yes. Because I'll either be like, oh, can I do it, too? And it's like, mom, just calm down. Or I'm taking pictures of everything. Mom, put away your phone. Stop taking pictures of us. And then James is constantly, constantly, like, if there's music going, then his arms are flailing and he's walking down the street like this, and, you know, his.

Speaker 1

Arms flailing, and he's thinking he's super cool. And the kids are like.

Speaker 3

Or does he know he's not.

Speaker 4

He knows he's not. And he does it all the time.

Speaker 3

But do the girls, or do your kids know that? He knows that.

Speaker 4

Yes, they do. But it's still like. Like embarrassing.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 5

We don't have teenagers yet, so our kids, it takes a lot to embarrass.

Speaker 3

They still think we're funny.

Speaker 4

Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 2

That's good. And I think the principle here is be free.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 2

You know, take the risk to do something crazy. I used to try and do accents in my sermons sometimes.

Speaker 3

You've done them on episodes.

Speaker 2

So bad. So bad today. And the boys like that just never even try. The first one I did was Billy Crystal in some movie. Like, that's marvelous or whatever.

Speaker 1

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2

They're like, you just.

Speaker 1

Father of the bride.

Speaker 2

I really. That's marvelous.

Speaker 1

Something else.

Speaker 2

Anyway, I give up.

Speaker 5

When you read aloud to the girls, your voices.

Speaker 3

Yeah. She's way better at the voices. Yeah.

Speaker 1

Well, I think that the idea, too, is if we're not intentional with some of these things, it won't happen. And we talk about at the weekend, remember, marriage conference, for family life, that we all drift toward isolation, and we have to strategically and intentionally move toward oneness. And these are some good ways to make sure that we're moving toward oneness.

Speaker 2

This brings you back toward oneness. I'm gonna say them real quick. Pray together, notice each other, hold hands, say I'm sorry, say thank you. Surprise each other, embarrass each other and the kids. And guess what? There's three more. You're gonna have to go to the Show Notes and click on the article to get it. Arlene, thank you.

Speaker 1

Amazing. Thanks for being with us.

Speaker 4

It's been such a joy.

Speaker 1

Thank you. Hey, thanks for watching. And if you like this episode, you better like it. Just hit that like button and we'd.

Speaker 2

Like you to subscribe. So all you got to do is go down and hit the subscribe. I can't say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don't think I can say this.

Speaker 1

Word like and subscribe.

Speaker 2

Look at that. You say it so easy. Subscribe. There he goes.