FamilyLife Today®

Brian: We got a call from a mom basically outing one of our kids. You talk about embarrassing. You're starting to think about your perception management, where you are in ministry and all this kind of stuff. You're feeling all that, and all you feel is anger, like, "How could my kid do this to me?" You have to step back from that and go, "We all do that." So now, how do I move through that chaos and connect them to a Savior?

Ann Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

We've got the men's panel back in the studio. We have Brian and George and Duran in, talking about marriage, talking about being dads. I just spoke at a men's conference in New York. I said to these men, and I've never said it quite like this before, "I don't think we have a toxic masculinity problem. We have a toxic passivity problem." And they cheered. I got a reaction. Something connected with that.

Again, I'm not saying toxic masculinity is not a thing. It is a thing. You power up and you control. That is ridiculous. But I think guys in the room resonated with, "I am not as active in my family, my parenting, my marriage as I should be." Maybe I've even heard that in different ways from my wife. So answer this question: How do we step out of—I always talk about four pillars of manhood. The R for a real man is a real man rejects passivity. I try to say passivity is in there. It was in Adam, and we can rip on Adam in the garden, and then we look in the mirror and go, "I'm as bad as Adam." So when we feel it in us, we have to reject it, push it down, and act. What's that look like for you guys?

Duran: For me, it's intentionality. One of the ways I get passive is I have so many other things I could be doing right now. I'll just let that go and then I'll get to it when I can. Those things I've noticed in me, if I start doing that, they need my attention. So I try to be intentional about those things, to step into it.

Brian: There are so many other things I could be watching right now. I could be thinking about all the leisure things I could be doing. But I think it is intentionality. A lot of it is just systems too, figuring out what are those regular habits that I just keep consistently in my life?

For me and Jen, praying together wasn't anything magical. It was first admitting, "I don't really want to do this. I'm not really excited about this. I'm not drawn to this," and being okay with that and just admitting it. But we had these two new chairs, and we sat them together. We're having coffee in the morning, and Jen put a list together. We just started praying through the list. It started out as maybe five minutes a day. We don't hit every day, but most days in a week, if we're in those chairs and we're having coffee together, one of us will say, "All right, you ready to pray?" Just that list and that system has helped us. I think there's got to be something in place. Otherwise, I think my tendency is just to pull back.

Dave Wilson: Is there any sense that you need accountability, whether it's your wife or another guy or group of guys? What's that look like in your life? Do you have that?

Duran: I have two guys in my life. I'm thinking about them right now. They do that. They know my life inside and out. They're those people that can say what needs to be said, and I've just got to swallow it. We started out meeting for coffee and all that. Now it's really organic. It's a text message, it's a phone call. For whatever reason, the Holy Spirit talks to them. They'll call me at the right time like, "Hey, what are you doing right now?" "Well, you just caught me and I'm sitting here." "Why? You should be doing this. You said you were going to do this," or checking in on my family. It started out intentional and now it's become really organic that I expect a message from them at least two to three times a day.

George: I do need help. We all do. That's the truth. The community aspect of living in the body is new to me because I've just been a loner. I've always just been like, "I know mentally I need people," but it wasn't a reality in my life. The past couple of years I have a circle of men who regularly check in on each other.

It's something that I'm learning not just mentally, but now it's a part of my walk to live in community. It's been this huge benefit in my life where men can actually check me. I've got some pastors that will check me and say, "George, what are you doing?" It's been transformational. It's been challenging because I still hate it. I don't love it. But it's needed. And also living life with other married couples that want the same thing for their marriage and for their parenting. That is so important.

Dave Wilson: I'm guessing you guys have experienced this when you don't want to go to the gym, and then you go. Usually, when you're walking out—not every time, but nine out of ten times—I'm walking out going, "I'm glad I did it." I didn't want to. I walked in like I'm not going to. Next thing I know, I get into it. An hour later I'm walking out going, "That's a good thing." That's why we need men in our lives because a lot of times I wouldn't go to the gym by myself, but if there's a guy there, I'm going to do it. I think that passivity is a big deal.

Brian: I feel that way especially about the conversations that I know I need to have with my kids that I just don't want to have. I sat down with Gibson the other day. We were playing racquetball, and there was something that just made me want to check him, how he's doing with his phone, what he's looking at. You know the stuff. He's a 17-year-old boy.

I hadn't asked him in a while, and I wanted to see where he's at. I don't want to start that conversation because I'd rather just feel like we're doing good. We played a good game, it was fun. I'd rather be fun and harmonious than intimate, especially with my kids, because I want them to like me at the end of the day. And it's easier. But I always feel better after.

Dave Wilson: You said the word. Those conversations where you step into something that's a little tense, like the phone or whatever, those are intimate. There's part of me that's like, "I don't want that kind of intimacy. I'll just avoid it and then we're good and we're smiling and the moment's gone." If I look back on regrets, it's those moments when you feel the nudge of the Spirit—and I think it's the Spirit of God saying, "Step in here"—and you don't. We all know because we're old enough to know those are gone and they're gone forever.

George: I just want to follow up on what you said about that relationship with the Holy Spirit. A lot of times I think with the accountability partners piece of it, we tend to prioritize that relationship as the only source of accountability. For me, this relationship that we have with the Holy Spirit—the conviction piece of the Spirit of God saying to me, literally saying to me, "Do you love your wife?" And me looking in the mirror. I've done this. Looking in the mirror: "Do I love my wife?" Then do something. It's this conviction that the Holy Spirit just regularly does, routinely does. That's also part of what accountability looks like, I think. Not just "let me call a friend," which is important, but I just don't want to minimize the Holy Spirit's work.

Duran: I think it's mainly when you're not listening. The Holy Spirit's told you a couple of times, "Okay, you going to keep ignoring me? I got something for you."

Dave Wilson: All right, I want you to brag. Give me one or maybe two things you've done right. Let's start with parenting. As a dad, I did this one right, or I'm doing it right.

George: Again, back to what we were talking about earlier, the vulnerability piece, like confessing my sins to my children. Often we read that passage in James, "Confess your sins one to another." We don't think about the kids. Real men confess their sins.

Dave Wilson: And you know what it says in James 5 that you just quoted? Confess your sins to one another so that what? You pray for one another and be healed. You confess your sins to God for forgiveness and you receive it, but the healing part—isn't that interesting that it says it's to a human being? You don't hide that. And you're saying doing it with your kids.

George: Doing it with your kids, which is a foreign concept to me, maybe to most believers. We think of confessing to other adult men that are in the same boat.

Dave Wilson: Hey, I want to hear from you guys on this one. But before we go there, I want to ask this of all three of you guys. Bruce, we got the young dad in here. You can jump in on this too. I want to know this: Is there a limit to the confession? Is there a line you shouldn't go across?

I remember when our youngest was in the house and the other two were off to college. His name's Cody. He's sitting there as a junior in high school. Nobody's at the table except Ann, me, and Cody. He looks at us the first week and goes, "So did you guys ever have sex before marriage?" And I'm like, "Here it is." I looked at Ann like, "How honest should we be?" I don't want him to go, "Oh, look where you are now, so no big deal," or do I lie?

George: Those are your options. What did you do, Dave? Don't leave us hanging.

Dave Wilson: I said I got to go to the bathroom. No, we were honest. We told him our life was before we were followers of Christ. After we became followers of Christ, it really became an issue like, "This has got to stop," and it did. I wasn't even dating Ann at that time, but we started dating as we're believers. So I told him the full thing. But there was a catch in my spirit. I've had other mentors say, "No, you don't need to go there. Just keep some of that—you don't share everything." So that's why I asked. There's some of it you have brothers you can ask and the Holy Spirit, but you've got to decide how honest you're going to be.

All right, go back. What did I say? Oh, brag. Let's go back to bragging now.

Brian: I definitely think the more that you can lead with vulnerability. I don't think you have to always give all the details, but I encourage a lot of dads, especially with pornography, when they start talking to their kids about it, like, "You've got to lead with your story." Otherwise, they'll own their own shame. So how do I bring the shame into the light and realize that I'm not beholden by it? There is no condemnation for those of us who are in Christ Jesus. So I can share my story, whatever that shame might be. Obviously, at age-appropriate times.

But there's times where they need to hear it. So I think being real, especially when you mess up with your wife or you take her for granted or when you're having a yelling match—to be able to apologize in that moment and come back and say, "I blew it. I blew it."

Duran: I have the same answer for both those questions. I am extremely open with my kids. They know this. There's certain questions they won't ask me because they don't want the answer to. And I'm okay with that. If they are too young to hear it, I'll tell them. I'll say, "You're too young to hear it right now, but I will let you know one day." I think that leads to the one thing that I think I've done really well, that's something that I've never had modeled, but I really wanted modeled in my own life, is that I apologize to my kids when I'm wrong.

And that is the hardest apology that I ever have to give because number one, they're my kids. Number two, I don't want to apologize to them. Why am I telling you sorry? I don't want to say sorry to you. You should be listening to me. But if I feel like I've done them wrong, I will immediately apologize.

Brian: I was going to brag on my wife for a second. I think that we've done mundane well. So much of life is just mundane. I was about to say, "Oh, we've done vacations well," but I think the reality of just having dinner around the table five nights a week. I'm learning that right there. My wife loves that. I'm an extremely spontaneous person. I'll wake up in the morning like, "Okay, let's go on a trip." She'll have fun with that, but she does not enjoy that. What brings her comfort and peace is the mundane.

Dave Wilson: You guys do five nights a week?

Brian: When our kids weren't off doing a ton of activities like athletics, but in general, I would say four nights a week. I'd say pretty confidently four nights a week we're having dinner together. I think that's not everybody, but is there anything that's in your life that's like that consistent? Those dinners aren't magical. We're still washing dishes. That's the other thing I'd say: Are you washing dishes? Are you doing chores together? So much of life is mundane. If you can do the mundane well, I think your kids get into this rhythm.

Now we have my daughter who's calling and she's telling Jen, she's like, "I'm going to surprise Connor tonight." They're newlyweds, so everything's a surprise. "I'm going to surprise him tonight by showing a new candle," or whatever. I don't want to hear all that right now. But she's like, "Yeah, I'm going to surprise him with this meal tonight." And so you just go, "That's life." It's around this table.

Dave Wilson: There was a study, I don't know if you ever saw it, years ago. University of Michigan study that said: What are the commonalities in families that raise adult kids that turn out very healthy? You know what it was? Their conclusion was one thing: four nights a week at the dinner table. There we go. Well, good. I'm going to add that to my list. I'm doing something else well. Okay, we can go with that.

I wish I could say I read the study. I just listened to my wife. It is a fascinating answer. You're like, "Wait, I thought it would be they taught this, they did that." No, they sat around a table, they looked in each other's eyes and they did—and I'll tell you what, this world we're living in, most families don't. Sports, different activities, which are all important—I remember when our three boys were playing high school football, Ann said, "Okay, you're not home at 6:00. We're waiting until 8:00 PM and we're having dinner together as a family."

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Dave Wilson: All right, Bruce, we're throwing it into the control room. What do you got?

Bruce: I'm just thinking about the confession and the bragging. What Brian said reminded me that it's kind of like you can get both. When we confess to our kids, we have no need to fear, "Oh no, this sin I'm about to confess is too big." Like you're saying, we don't need to go into all the details, but there is no sin too big because you get to brag on Jesus.

It's like, "Yeah, kids, look how bad this sin was," whatever it was. There is no need to fear because you can brag on Jesus and say, "Yeah, that sin was bad, but look at the Savior we've got." Shame is gone, sin is gone. We confess to that, and we're free. What a model that is to our kids. Who should bring a charge against God's elect? Nobody. So we can say that freely. Pretty awesome. My oldest is 10, so so far the questions haven't been too hard. I can say that easily, but check back in another six years.

Dave Wilson: Well, at your age group, Bruce—10 and younger—brag on some habit that you guys have. I know they do great stuff.

Bruce: Mostly my wife. She's amazing. She homeschooled. So I'm getting ready in the morning, and I'm overhearing them going through the New City Catechism. "Why did God create us?" and all this stuff. The girls are sitting there singing. It's incredible to see their mom just bringing them up. Proverbs 31 talks about her husband trusts in her. What a beautiful thing to see her raising them up in the faith.

Duran: I realized during the COVID time that I cannot homeschool my kids. It is something I wanted to do and then I almost killed them. I tried.

Dave Wilson: So what would you guys say to a guy like Bruce? I'm talking season of life. They've got young kids. We all have older kids. They want to do fathering well, they want to be the husband. If you had 30 minutes with him at lunch, what would you say?

Duran: One of the biggest lessons that I wish I would have learned earlier is that achievement is not everything. That was really hard for me to learn as someone who is driven and who likes to accomplish things and knock things off of a list. Achievement is not everything because once you achieve it, sometimes I feel empty. I'm like, "Man, I did all this work to get here, and for what?"

So I think it is learning about the journey and the process of bringing my family with me is what has actually helped me want to achieve more. But this time it's different. It's not me achieving for the sake of achievement. I want my family along with me. I want my kids to see the things that I'm doing. Why? Because I want them to know that you can do these things. I want to do these things with my wife. So when she looks back, she's like, "You know what? We did these things together."

We did the same thing with school. For my first degree, she was like, "Man, we did this together." "Yeah, we sure did do this together. I couldn't do it without you." Raising the kids, we do those things together. It brings this cohesiveness to our family that they're like, "Man, if my dad can do these things..." because they know where I come from. They know my history and they're like, "Man, Dad!" And their favorite thing is to make fun of me. They love it. They're like, "Dad, I was never as bad as you." And I said, "You're right, and don't try it." Achievement by itself is not the end goal. It's not everything because you can get there and still be lonely. Bringing my family with me has changed the whole game for me. It's fun now.

George: There's a lot of pressure to get this thing done right, parenting. Just trust God with your kids. Be intentional about teaching your children. You're going to fail from time to time. Don't be so hard on yourself. Learn from other good dads. Failure's baked in. You're going to fail. Just get ready for it. It's okay.

Not to minimize sin, because that's not okay. But the kids need to know: deal aggressively with your sin. Confession is a part of that. But also just get up. "A righteous man falls seven times but gets back up." Just keep running this race. It's a daily grind, and we have a hope. I think that's the beautiful gospel demonstration. I demonstrate the gospel to my kids now when before they thought I was perfect.

Brian: I think we're all hitting it in the same sense. There is no perfect parent. You think about who was the most perfect Father in all of eternity: Father God. Look how His kids turned out.

For me, I would probably say we've already said a lot of good stuff about being intentional and confessing and really getting a few good habits. But for me, it's just the perspective of my goal isn't just for my kids to make my life easier. That my life will be better. There is some great wisdom to Proverbs where it talks about when you discipline your children, it will give their parents rest. There is a lot of truth to that and you want to be a good disciplining parent, but recognizing that they are working out their own sin.

And so, to not be so surprised when they break your heart. Because they will break your heart. They will break it in ways that allow you to connect with the heart of the Father. Because you think: How often does God feel this? If He truly loves us the way He says He does and that He's a personal God, to see how many times I've been wayward in my thoughts. You multiply that by billions. And for God to be broken. I would just say it's going to happen. Feel the brokenness in your own heart. Feel the hurt, feel the pain, and then go, "Okay, then how do we move forward? How do I love them in such a way that God loves me?"

Something happened in you when you said that. You just replay the conversations where my daughter in college is just working out her own sinful nature. You get shocked and you go, "That's not how we raised you. That's not how you've presented yourself to us." And then you find out the real story. My son in high school, catching him with weed again. How do you deal with that in that moment? How do you bring him back to God?

The goal isn't to make my life better in this moment or to be embarrassed because of how he—we got a call from a mom basically outing one of our kids. You talk about embarrassing. You're starting to think about your perception management, where you are in ministry and all this kind of stuff. You're feeling all that, and all you feel is anger, like, "How could my kid do this to me?" You have to step back from that and go, "We all do that." So now, how do I draw them back to God in this moment, still give them discipline? They've got to have consequences. But my goal isn't to make my life better now and more orderly from what the chaos that they just brought in. My goal now is to move through that chaos and connect them to a Savior and leave that impression.

Dave Wilson: Another great day with these three guys. I think this is some stuff that literally can change your legacy. We're going to be back tomorrow. We're going to do one more day with these guys. But if we can help you, just go to FamilyLife.com/parentinghelp and we will give you resources that will help you be the dad and mom you want to be.

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