FamilyLife Today®

Rechab Gray: When I was courting her, I used a diamond illustration with her and I was telling her that I found a diamond. She held on to that and later in our marriage she told me, "I don't feel like I'm that diamond anymore. You used to really—I could tell the way you looked at me, the way you desired me, the way you took care of me. You were gentle with me. I was a diamond at one point and I don't feel like I'm a diamond anymore."

Dave Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Dave Wilson.

Ann Wilson: And I’m Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

Dave Wilson: All right. No women in the studio, just us men talking about how to love our wives. We’ve got Rechab and Ike back for day three and we’re going to dig into some good stuff. So, let’s go.

Ike Todd: Do you think husbands and wives who are struggling run away from that kind of community? They’re afraid of it. They don’t want somebody to get in there and see how bad they’re doing.

Rechab Gray: Darkness hates the light. That lack of community, not wanting exposure—I think that’s normally led by dudes because usually women will accept it in a heartbeat. They want it because they so want to submit to their husbands since they’re usually godly women. They sit quietly hoping that a dude from the outside will come and grab hold of their husband and begin to lead him and disciple him. "Please come invade our relationship because we know we need it." It’s the dude who’s almost like, "I got it. I got this." And it’s super, super dangerous.

Ike Todd: It’s really stubborn. It’s a hard heart. I think we’ve all got to deal with that without a doubt. I remember our first big fight in our very first year of marriage and she was suggesting that we talk to you. I didn’t want that at all, not even close. But we did. You called me out and that changed everything for me. It humbles you. But it’s a meekness. It actually strengthens you. It just makes everything better and your wife feels much more loved.

Dave Wilson: And she feels safe. Because she’s got a man that’s humble enough to receive correction. I think that’s a definition of a godly man: the willingness and humility to receive correction.

I remember there’s a guy playing in the NFL right now that I ended up in a relationship with as a mentor and he was making some bad decisions. I can’t mention his name, but I remember telling Ann one night, "I’m calling him and I’m letting him have it. He trusts me. He’s asked me for it. I’m going to let him have it." And she heard me downstairs and she goes, "Whoa, you did not hold back."

I was saying things and I remember I looked at Ann and I said, "Well, we’ll see. If he does what I said, he will save his life." And the next day, I’m playing golf with some buddies and I don’t talk about any of this to anybody. They don’t even know this. And this guy’s really well known. Some guy’s playing golf and he looks at his phone and he goes, "Hey, so-and-so just got off all of social media!" That’s literally one of the things I said that night. I said, "Dude, you got to get off this." I was thinking, "Okay, he has a chance." And that guy is thriving today, not just as an NFL player, but in his marriage and as a dad.

It was one of those moments where as a man, our wives are going to follow us when they see us do that because we’re submitting to the Father, we’re submitting to another brother. I remember one time sitting beside my best friend at his high school daughter’s basketball game. This guy played college football—Rob’s a great guy—he is yelling at these refs. To the fact that the ref kept looking at him like this dude is a jerk. I’m sitting beside him like, "Dude."

Finally, after the game was over, we walked out in the lobby and I go, "Let me tell you something, dude. You’re not going to like this. You were absolutely inappropriate. To be a man of God and treat another person like that—I said, your daughter was embarrassed." He looks at me like, "What?" I’m like, "I’m just telling you, dude. You need to check yourself. That was embarrassing. I was embarrassed to sit beside you." I was like, "Should I say this?"

He called me about two hours later and he goes, "Thank you, man. You were right. I didn’t realize I got way too caught up. I needed a brother to tell me that." And I’m watching his wife and she’s like, "I’ll follow you anywhere." Not me, him. Because he’s willing to receive correction. We think wives submit to your husbands, but if we’re not submitting—not that they have the license not to, but it’s a lot harder to do that. Let me ask you this: when have you failed at this? Loving, leading, cherishing, nourishing?

I’ll lead with this and then I want to hear your story. Our listeners have heard this and I won’t go into all the details, but there was a night 20-some years ago—we’ve been married 45 years now—so it was somewhere when we had kids in the home. I came home after a Sunday night weekend which for me at that time was crazy: preaching twice on Saturday, then doing Lions chapel Saturday night, then preaching three times, then going to the game, being on the sideline, coming home.

So, I’m exhausted. I’m crawling in bed just exhausted, don't want to talk. And Ann says, as I’m laying my head on the pillow—I don't think you guys have heard this, our listeners have heard this because it's in our book and I think it’s in her last book she probably talked about this—she literally says, like under her breath, "Man, I wish the guy that led our church lived here."

Again, I’m laying there and I’m like, "I’m not even sure what I heard her say. What’d you just say?" And she just says something to the effect of, "I watched you this morning at church preaching and praying and casting vision. You were on fire and you lead with this passion. You don’t bring any of that home." I wish I could tell you guys I just said, "I needed to hear that."

I jumped out of bed pretty loudly and said, "Let me tell you something! I know the husbands in this church. You got the best one in the whole stinking church right here and you don’t even appreciate it!" I was just like, "You got to be kidding me." And that’s how it ended. Went to bed, didn’t talk. Woke up next day. I’m in my little home office and I’m sitting there and I go, "God, were You speaking to me last night through Ann?" and I felt like He said, "Yep."

What I realized is she was right. I lead strong in the ministry. It’s like your job. I bring it. I come home, I’m tired, I’m almost like, "Come on, you got this, right? You’ll pray with the boys, you’ll put them to bed. This is a place I can rest." And I felt like God said, "The most important people in your life that need to be loved and led by you are named Ann, CJ, Austin, and Cody. And you’re doing that for thousands of people that you don’t even know their names."

I remember getting on my knees and saying, "Okay, God, I need to—it was a step-up moment." Like, I can do this. When I drive in my driveway, I need to shift gears and say, "Okay, I know I’m tired but it doesn’t matter. I am called to love and nourish and cherish and lead her and the boys. Let’s go." How’ve you failed in any areas where you had to have a Jesus moment?

Rechab Gray: I can tell my life-changing, marriage-changing, everything-changing story for me. This was probably like that third or fourth year of marriage and I remember because I’m used to using words. This is before, by the way, I was even like a preacher like that. But maybe being so quiet helped me with words or whatever. So, I could always out-argue my wife who’s more quiet. Insanely brilliant, by the way. And that’s another thing about our wives—this isn’t weakness, this is meekness. This is strength that doesn’t have to be shown off and that really matters.

But a lot of times she’ll just let me have the win for the argument just for the sake of arguing. One day she challenged me on something. I can’t even remember what it was. I out-argued her again, won. I was walking outside—this is when we were in Philly—and I was walking down my sidewalk. It was literally—I don’t know another way to say it—it’s like God stopped me on that sidewalk. I’m sure if someone else was watching they’d be like, "This is weird. Why’d he just stop?"

Physically, I was walking down a sidewalk and I stopped. I can’t explain this but it was super clear in my soul: "You’re arguing your way out of My conviction." I walked back inside, I apologized, and I said, "I’m not going to say a word. I need to understand what you’re saying to me." For the rest of our marriage, that has been a thing. My wife’s not a talker.

So, sometimes she’ll give like a little space in conversation. Like when all four of us are together, she’s the quietest one and so I’ll literally have to be like, "You were saying something." I have to draw it out because otherwise she’ll just be like, "Okay, y'all got it." Yet, a lot of times it’ll be what she says that’ll shift the whole meeting. Seriously. But you’re not going to get a lot of that from her unless you draw it out.

Up until that point in our marriage, I would argue my way with Bible, by the way. That’s the danger with Bible out of conviction. Like she said it in the worst way and so I can beat her just on word smithing. I argued my way out of a lot of conviction. That day I don’t remember what she even was challenging me on. I remember the Lord arresting me on that sidewalk.

And for the rest of my life, not only for me, but for other brothers that I’ve been able to lead—like I can tell when guys have the gift of gab and it’s like, "Be careful of that. Because you’re going to be able to out-argue your wife and you’re going to miss a lot of what the Lord wants to transform in you." It’s like he shut down her spirit and now she doesn’t even want to give that anymore. That’s a haunting place to be.

So, I praise the living God that that’s been able to be something changed. But I still got the tendency. I seriously have that tendency. I can see it roiling up like I’m so mad at the conviction. Let me figure out a way to out-argue you. And in those moments, it’s only the Spirit of God that can restrain me. So, that’s my major failure.

Dave Wilson: In some ways that’s living with her in an understanding way. You understand how she’s wired and you’re saying, "My role is I’ve got to bring that out of her. And that means shut up sometimes." But you know how hard it is to bring out of somebody what’s hurting you to help you and make you holy, but it still hurts. That’s the toughest thing in the world and it’s been the most transformative without a doubt. How about you, Ike?

Ike Todd: Very similar. One thing that came to mind was kind of off the cuff she just said one day, "I feel like to come to you I have to have my argument tight or I’ve got to have all my ducks in a row to come to you to talk about something." And that just crushed me because up until that point I thought I was doing the opposite. And that just really crushed me to this day. That just rings in my mind.

So, I always want to create the space for her to know, "Bring whatever and say it however you need to. You don’t need to sound like an expert. Just say what you’ve got to say." My wife is good at saying what she’s got to say. But that was pivotal. There was another time when I was courting her. I used a diamond illustration with her and I was telling her that I found a diamond.

She held on to that and later in our marriage she told me, "I don’t feel like I’m that diamond anymore. You used to really—I could tell the way you looked at me, the way you desired me, the way you took care of me. You were gentle with me. I was a diamond at one point and I don’t feel like I’m a diamond anymore." And that was really tough for me to hear.

I changed. But I think that’s what I’m trying to articulate when I say that struggle between leadership and love. In my mind, the way I’m defining it in my heart, when I think about leadership in my natural way, I really am kind of heavy-handed and so I really a lot of times over-correct and try to be really gentle with my wife. When it’s times like this where it’s like, "Yeah, I do need to be gentle. She is that diamond."

But somehow I go past that and it just gets messed up as Paul talks about when saying the difficulty in trying to please God or please your wife. A lot of times I can fall into pleasing my wife rather than trying to please God. So, it’s a slippery slope with me and my personality. But the beautiful thing about my wife is she’s patient with me. I think she understands the struggle that I have.

She knows that I’m heavy-handed. And sometimes she’ll just come straight out and tell me, "I need you to be hard on me with this." So, I’ve got a wonderful wife who wants to submit to my leadership, wants to follow me, and has a pretty good understanding of that struggle that I have. She helps me in leading her.

Dave Wilson: I know that when you say that she doesn’t feel like the diamond anymore, I think—I’m going to make a generalization, hopefully it’s wrong—the majority of wives don’t feel like the diamond anymore. And I know we feel the same thing on our side. "Well, she doesn’t respect me." But I don’t see a lot of wives just blooming in their Christian marriages. Those are the ones I’m looking at.

And again, I can’t judge, but if you ask the average wife, "Do I feel loved as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her?" Probably not. "My husband’s pretty selfish, thinks about himself more than me." And I think the sad thing is I think Ann would say that for many years of our marriage and that’s on me. I want her to submit and I’m not willing to submit to the Father or love her in a way that brings out the beauty of who she is.

You get lazy, you lose your first love, you get apathetic, you don’t date, you don’t talk, you don’t listen. I’m saying my marriage right there. And I want her, 45 years in, to be blooming like the greatest joy of my life is being married to this guy because he sees me and appreciates me and you’re a diamond. And I’m hoping men are listening going, "Oh man, what would my wife say?"

That’d be a great assignment: say, "Does your wife feel like a precious jewel by the way you love her?" Because if she does, submission’s not going to be hard. She’ll be running to say, "I’ll submit because I know you’re following Jesus and you’re loving me. That’s easy."

Okay, guys, we’ve got a quick question. How would you honestly rate your marriage on a scale one to ten? That’s a scary thing. I don’t even want to ask you to do it because it doesn’t always go well.

Ann Wilson: And that number may genuinely scare you or make you excited. But regardless of where you are, I would encourage you to check out FamilyLife’s Weekend to Remember marriage getaway.

Dave Wilson: And here’s what a wife of 27 years said about her experience at the Weekend to Remember: "I found my best friend again. Just getting away together and focusing only on us is just what we needed. The sessions were timed perfectly, ordered intentionally, and we feel a new hope going home." Wow, that’s really cool, isn’t it?

Ann Wilson: We’ve been doing this for the last 40 years and we’ve seen so many marriages impacted for the glory of God and the health of relationships. And we want to see that for you too.

Dave Wilson: And now through January 26, registrations are half off. So, don’t wait. Visit FamilyLifeToday.com to find a date and a location that works for you and save 50 percent because your marriage is worth it. Any last words? If you had a husband saying, "Okay, how do I love my wife like Christ loves the church?" Is there anything you haven't said?

Rechab Gray: I think the stuff I reiterate is wives feel more safety in community. Don’t think you can love by yourself. You need other men who can challenge the way you’re loving because you might even be thinking you’re loving. But that might just be a product of your environment and maybe your father was disconnected emotionally. So, you’re just passing that on, but that’s the only thing you know.

Well, you need a guy who has learned to be emotionally connected to speak into that and I think there’s safety in that. And the other thing I would say is there are wives who so desire—just like I’m sure who are listening right now—like "I want to feel like that diamond, but I don’t." And I think there are husbands who want their wife to feel like that, but for a myriad of reasons, they’re not there yet.

Both the husband and the wife have a wonderful Savior to look to. Wives are called to submit to their own husbands as unto the Lord. Husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loved the church. And in both of those things, the wives are submitting ultimately to a Savior and a husband who didn’t just say words, but gave His life.

And the husband is trying to model a Savior who died not only for the wife but also for the husband’s sins as well. And there’s always a good time to start which is today to change those things, to look at the Savior from which your true redemption and restoration can come. And I’m a firm, genuine believer that when we repent and turn ourselves both to the Savior and say "whatever it takes, whatever it takes"—if it means I’ve got to get my life vulnerable before some dudes, if it means I’ve got to repent of some past practices and it makes me look really small now, if it means I’ve got to get out of some unhealthy relationships with some men who don’t push me towards a culture of loving my wife because we know that there are those circles too—whatever it takes, I believe God is not only able to restore it back to the time we got married, but far, far, far beyond that. And I’m living proof of that.

Ike Todd: I was going the same direction. It’s Christ. Christ has to be the center. And for the guy in particular, you’ve really got to question how much you love the Lord. Because one day, whether you are intentional about seeking it out or not, somebody’s going to come to you with some correction and it’s going to be from the Lord and you’ll discover your heart in that moment.

Because it’s almost like what you were describing, the guy who took all the social media stuff down. We’ve had those experiences where we tell someone to do the thing that we know they do not want to do: break the video game system, throw away this phone, whatever it is. At that point, how much do you really love the Lord? How much do you really seek after the Lord?

Are you willing to get rid of these idols? The thing is, if you’re going to love your wife well, you’re going to have to really lean into the Lord and be seeking after Him. Without that, then there’s no chance. And you need to know that about yourself, about your own heart. I don’t have a chance of loving my wife well at all.

Dave Wilson: I think it’s really interesting when you study the passage in Ephesians 5, which I missed this for decades. I don’t know if you realize—you probably do because you’re a Bible memorization guy—verse one of Ephesians 5, I believe, is the context for verse 25, "love your wives as Christ loved the church." He says, "imitate Christ as beloved children."

And when you look up imitate in the Greek, it’s copy, it’s mimic. So, our lives should copy or look just like we mimic Jesus. And then when I teach this, I’m like, "Okay, so if you’re honest, you’re like, 'I can’t do me. Copy me? Somebody’s got to look at my life and think I’m Jesus? No, that’s impossible.'" And then 16 verses later, he says here’s how: "do not get drunk on wine, that’s a waste of time. Be filled with the Holy Spirit."

Which is what you said: "I can’t do it." I have to have the Holy Spirit of God literally empower and control me, fill me. And then out of that comes the context of speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. "Wives, submit to your husband. Submit to one another in the fear of Christ. Wives, submit to your husbands, husbands..." It’s all out of what you just said: "I cannot do this without the power, the living power, the resurrected Christ living in me, empowering me to imitate God by loving my wife as Christ loved the church, submitting to my husband because he’s submitting to Christ."

It’s all out of that. So, at the end of the day, guess what, guys? You’ve got to fall on your face and say, "That’s it. I am a selfish jerk dude. I cannot be selfless without the power of God until I submit and literally let Him flow and live through me." I’ll never love her like that and she’ll never respect or love me the same way. But if we do together—or if she never does, I still can. I’ve got to go there.

So, guys, if you’re listening and you’re like, "I want my wife"—forget your wife. Get your stinking butt on your knees and say, "I’m going to love Jesus like the way He wants me to." And if my wife follows, she will. If not, I’m still going to do this. And guess what? She will. She will. She is begging God for you to change. When you do that, that’s leadership.

Hopefully that encouraged husbands. I hope wives listened and are saying to their husbands, "You’ve got to listen to this. This was gold and will help you as a husband love your wife as Christ loved the church and the way God called us to do." And by the way, you can watch the whole thing on our YouTube channel. Just search FamilyLife Today. It’s pretty. Well, it’s not as pretty as when the women were here, but here we are.

You can watch the whole conversation on YouTube. Before we’re done today, let me just say this. We meet a ton of couples who say FamilyLife helped them when they needed it the most. And that’s what being a FamilyLife partner is all about, helping others find that same encouragement and tools that you found right here. And we’d love for you to join us. So, click the donate button at FamilyLifeToday.com and become a partner today.

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