FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

I get frustrated when she'll make herself coffee and leave the creamer out and the little tab that she pulled off of it is there and all these kinds of things. And it's like, can you just throw it away when you're done?

And, you know, thankfully we had a good counselor who didn't indulge me in that. And he's like, what you need to do is just see that as another opportunity to serve.

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Speaker 3

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us@familylife today.com. this is Family Life Today. So I've always wanted to say this on Family Life today. Today we're going to talk about marital fantasies, but it's a lot different than it sounds.

Speaker 2

You know, you're my ultimate fantas with everything.

Speaker 3

Yeah, that's what I was hoping.

Speaker 1

You used to be.

Speaker 3

Well, you've heard some couples in the studio that I'm going to introduce in a minute.

But what we're going to do today is watch a clip from *Married with Benefits* with Brian Goins and Shanti Feldhahn, who wrote a book called *The Surprising Secrets of Highly Happy Couples*.

In her research, she studied the best of the best who have the best marriages in the world, and what do they do?

Speaker 2

Shanti is amazing at this. She's a Harvard researcher, so all of her material comes from stats and data and research that she's collected.

But if you haven't already been watching and listening to their podcasts, and it's also on YouTube, we'd really encourage you to do so. You can hear the whole episode when you go to their YouTube page.

And this is season four. We're gonna be listening to episode seven, and this is gonna be pretty fascinating.

Speaker 3

This episode, Brian is asking Shaun one of these habits, which is highly happy couples have factual fantasies.

Speaker 2

Interesting.

Speaker 3

Which. What in the world does that even mean? What's a factual fantasy? Well, we're going to find out.

Speaker 4

What actually causes unhappiness? People tend to think the usual suspects are things like money, conflict, and differing parenting philosophies. In some cases, these issues can feel like laws that have become outlaws.

Since I've got the expert on happiness right here in front of me, what is the leading cause of unhappiness in marriage?

Speaker 5

None of the above.

Speaker 4

None of them.

Speaker 5

It's what causes those problems, which is unmet expectations.

And this is a very common neuroscience principle. It's a common psychological principle where you have a certain expectation about your spouse, about whatever it is.

And you just think that this is the way it should be in air quotes should.

And that's not something that is being met equals unhappiness.

If we're not careful, that's what happens.

Speaker 6

It's so true.

Speaker 4

We talk about on the weekend, remember often with couples. The conference at Family Life does is that I like to give this illustration.

Those of you that are on YouTube, you'll actually be able to watch this. So if you're listening to it, you might want to go watch the YouTube channel on this. You'll see it.

But we like to use this illustration with arms. Shanta, you can do it with me if you want to.

Speaker 5

Okay.

Speaker 4

It's like the bottom arm represents reality. The top arm represents expectations and what happens in marriage and in life.

Really, this principle that you're talking about is the farther that expectations get from reality, what's in between that gap is disappointment.

Speaker 5

There's a giant, giant gap for some people. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 4

So the goal of any pursuit in life, whether it's work or relationships, is how do I get expectations to match reality? And that's really what the secret's all about, isn't it?

Speaker 5

Yeah, it really is the key here, and this is the most important thing we call this chapter is highly happy couples have factual fantasies. Right?

Speaker 4

That doesn't go. That's an oxymoron, isn't it? From what I remember from English and.

Speaker 5

It’s like what I know our producer Bruce was like, ah, yeah, those two things don't work together. And so here's really the way that this works. The key is that all of us have the tendency to have certain expectations of our spouse that they are just not wired to meet. Expecting that is gonna cause us pain.

Let me give you an example of this. This is a very, very common thing, and I'll just use amongst women; there are others that men have. For example, any woman who has ever watched a romance movie, any woman who's ever read a novel that has any kind of romance element, or has, you know, listened to songs or whatever, it is very easy in our minds to subconsciously expect that when we have been having a really bad argument with our spouse and we pull away and, you know, we're crying, there’s something in us that expects and wants our spouse to come after us.

Speaker 1

Right?

Speaker 5

Because we see that's the plot of the romance novels, right? We don't realize that that's kind of the plot of every romance novel that's ever been Written, she goes weeping away. And he goes, I am not gonna let you get away. I'm going.

Speaker 4

Not leaving this room until we settle this.

Speaker 5

Exactly. I mean, and like every woman listening to this, when you said that went like, that's because it says, I love you, I care about you. Right. Like, those are those things that make you feel that way. Okay? That's a character in a novel that's.

Speaker 4

Usually fiction and usually written by a woman.

Speaker 5

And probably written by a woman, because the actual real guys out there, the neuroscience of the male brain is such that in most cases, not all, but in most cases, when you pull away in the middle of an argument and you're secretly hoping he's gonna come after you, but you're pulling away, he's going, oh, thank goodness.

Cause I just need to get alone and think, right? Like, I need to figure out what I'm thinking.

Okay, this'll be good. We'll go to our separate corners, we'll think about it, and we'll come back together.

Speaker 4

Or if you're like me, it'll just blow over.

Speaker 5

Or it'll just blow over, and you're over there as the wife going, why isn't he coming after me? Why isn't he pursuing me? And if that is your expect, it is highly likely that you may be unhappy.

Instead of going, and here's the key, it's gotta come full circle. It's not just sort of going, okay, maybe that expectation is something that he's just not wired to do, or she's just not wired to do, or whatever.

You also then have to go, but what are they good at? What can they do that I can celebrate? That's the fantasy that I can expect. And actually something they will delight in meeting.

Speaker 4

Yeah. And that becomes a factual fantasy.

Speaker 5

There you go.

Speaker 4

But when we get married, I'm finding that for me, I know it's like. It seems like all marriage, especially the first couple of years, is just unpacking these fantasies that you never really knew you had. And you don't end up questioning the fantasy; you question your spouse.

I know for Jen, if she were on right now, she would say, "Yeah," because she grew up with her dad as a general contractor. I mean, every home she lived in—she lived in 27 homes as she was growing up in one zip code. Okay, one zip code, 27 homes, all built by hand by her dad, who could do all of it if he wanted to. Now, he had subcontractors, but he knew how it all got done, and it was all done perfectly.

So naturally, when we get married and we walk into our first house, which was just this beater of a house that had literally a tree growing through the back part of the house, it was a roach motel in Dallas, Texas. We walk in, and Jen had never seen the house. I remember something happened; she said, "Hey, Brian, the door's broken. It's not lining up right." I’m like, "Oh, that's interesting."

And she's going, "Why aren't you gonna fix it?" I'm like, "I have no idea how to fix that." Something would break down, and there was a sadness that started coming where she began to realize that she didn't know that was a fantasy. It's a fantasy because her husband can't do that. If it can't be fixed with a screwdriver or a hammer, I'm pretty much out of luck.

I grew up with a dad, and when something broke in the house, he called somebody who would fix it. So those two things came together, and that was a struggle. Unfortunately, I've grown a little bit, but I'm never gonna be her dad. That just wasn't my background.

Speaker 5

Yep. And you. And let me just tell you, sometimes the factual fantasies can work in the reverse order.

Like, sometimes it's you being kind to your. Like, and saying it's okay that I'm never gonna be her dad.

Right. Like, my fantasy might have been that I was the perfect handyman, and that's just not me. It's like, I can work, I can learn, I can grow.

But there are just things that we are just not ever gonna really feel come natural.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Okay, now we know what a factual fantasy is, and we're gonna find out from our factual fantasy couples who are back with us. We got Bruce and Maria back with us. They were here yesterday. Bruce is normally running the audio right now, but married 12 years, three girls, fourth on the way. We'll hear from you in a minute.

On the other side of the studio is John and Alyssa, who have been married three months and are on staff as well. So, I mean, even what Brian and Shaunti were talking about—expectations—let's talk about that to start with. What expectations did you come in with? And were they high? Like, was there a big gap between the elbows? Man.

Speaker 6

I think for me, I have always experienced you as, like, kind of a very logical person. You even relate to your own emotions pretty logically. You're able to kind of suss out, what am I feeling? Why and you can kind of move through those pretty well.

Speaker 2

Did you like that?

Speaker 6

I did, yeah. Yeah, I think it was great. That's how my brain works, you know, sometimes, hopefully.

And then now being married, I've seen more moments where it's just kind of that emotional flooding of, like I'm really sad or I'm really discouraged about something.

And it was almost like disconcerting at first.

Speaker 7

Like, wait, you're like, you learned I cry a lot.

Speaker 6

I know. I just didn't think it was a thing, which is so naive of me, but. But, yeah, just kind of that, you know, buckle up. Well, it's like in dating, you see a certain ratio maybe of emotions or qualities.

Speaker 3

So you've seen that already in three months?

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 8

You haven't even experienced pregnancy.

Speaker 6

I think that's what maybe surprised me a little bit, is you do have those moments of. Yeah. Just kind of needing to feel your feelings.

Speaker 7

Oh, yeah. All the time.

Speaker 3

You guys have the same thing or totally different.

Speaker 8

Our relationship was pretty fast. We were married in less than a year from when we started dating, courting, and our entire relationship was long distance.

So there were a lot of things, I think, assumptions maybe that we made about each other, things that we thought about each other. We had a limited scope of what we could see about the other person and know about the other person.

So when we got married, I think it was like a rude awakening. No, I mean, there was just a lot of things that we didn't know about the other person because our time spent together had been very limited.

Speaker 2

Ours was like that, too. Maria, what was your most surprising. Or, Bruce, you too. What was the most surprising thing that you didn't know that was there that you had expectations about?

Speaker 1

I mean, the emotional ups and downs. Yeah, I totally resonate with that.

Speaker 8

Except you knew I was an emotional person.

Speaker 1

I knew, but I never saw it. Yeah. Or like, your happy is happier than my happy. Your sad is sadder than my sad kind of thing, you know?

Speaker 8

And you came from a family that's very even keeled, like most of the women in your family are. Yeah, my mom's totally practical, very not super emotional people.

Speaker 1

I expected so. For one, I expected that we were in a studio apartment and I expected that if I needed a drink of water in the middle of the night, that that's an acceptable thing to get even.

Like to open the fridge and get the Brita pitcher out. The light comes on. And I just had the expectations of, you'll roll with that, because obviously I need to get a drink of water.

And that was, like, an early fight. We got. And she's like, what are you doing?

Speaker 3

Refrigerator.

Speaker 1

And like, just like. Yeah. I guess I had the expectation of you just, like, roll with things and roll with me, you know?

Speaker 8

Well, I grew up in a family where if somebody's sleeping, it's just. Everybody just tows around the person who is sleeping. The person who is sleeping rules the roost. And I mean, I guess being the baby, Bruce ruled the roost. So I don't know.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Anyway, so that's one. Another big one was my mom kept the house very clutter free, but I was also the youngest, so there weren't any younger siblings cluttering it up.

Speaker 8

She also only had two. And you also went to school.

Speaker 1

Well, three. Yeah. Yeah, right? I'm not. Look, these were not factual fantasies. I totally admit that.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So that was definitely one. That was not a factual fantasy.

Speaker 3

So when you hear this factual fantasy mindset, how's it hit you?

Because it's like taking those expectations and saying, I'm not gonna focus on what they can't deliver. I'm gonna focus on the facts. They can deliver this, and that's what I'm gonna focus on.

Is that, like. That's ridiculous.

Speaker 2

Does it seem impossible?

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 6

We were set up for success in this area immediately. Well, success or failure, we'll find out. We were thinking about this episode today. We remembered a moment from our wedding reception.

Speaker 7

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6

Our dear friend J.C. alyssa's Matron of honor. For her little speech during the wedding reception, she had a prop. She had a poster of. I mean, you should unpack this.

Speaker 7

So in the old house I lived in, so JC Was one of my roommates. We started this tradition where whenever a roommate came back from a long trip, we created a poster of their, like, dream men. Which sounds so ridiculous.

Speaker 6

From movies. Yeah.

Speaker 7

Their favorite celebrities. We had a poster of it. And so then for her speech at our wedding, she pulled out this sign.

Speaker 3

You brought it with you.

Speaker 2

Wait, you brought it.

Speaker 6

So they're kind of falling off.

Speaker 7

They're kind of falling off. So all of my, like, dream men. And she replaced them with John's face.

Speaker 6

But here's why. This is kind of funny.

Speaker 3

I want to see who's behind there.

Speaker 7

So I would say, I don't really remember.

Speaker 6

You'll make me insecure. I don't think she will.

Speaker 7

I don't remember why she chose all of it, but there was, like, one of them, Aaron Tveit. He's a Broadway star, he can sing, he's very musical.

And so it's like, oh, the fantasy is like a guy that's musical and John is actually musical. So it's like a factual fantasy.

So she basically found this was a.

Speaker 6

Poster full of factual fantasies. It was like all these things you love about these tv, you know, or musical characters.

Speaker 7

And she found all of the reasons why John is the perfect man for me. So this is our factual fantasy in a poster.

Speaker 6

So that was a funny moment from our.

Speaker 2

So John is your factual fantasy.

Speaker 7

Exactly. Look at him. How can he not be?

Speaker 3

I mean, as Maria said, just wait, it's coming. I mean, so you know when you realize your expectation is not going to be met. How have you dealt with that? Because every couple at some point, it could be a weekend, it could be a year, and it's gonna happen.

And usually, like Brian said, it's disappointment. As we've said many times on this program, many spouses will think, "I married the wrong person because I thought..." And basically, I thought he or she was going to make me happy. Now I'm not; I'm disappointed.

We always say that's not the issue; you're looking in the wrong place. But what do you do when you realize, "Oh my goodness, this dream is not ever gonna happen with him or her?" And that's okay. Yeah, that's actually good. But how do you get to that mindset?

Speaker 1

We had a counselor. Tell me. Cause so with the tell me. Yeah, tell me.

Speaker 8

Perfect.

Speaker 1

You know, I get frustrated when she'll make herself coffee and leave the creamer out and the little tab that she pulled off of it is. And all these kinds of things.

And it's like, can you just throw it away when you're done? Just throw it away. It's so easy. You're done with it. Throw it away or put it back in the fridge.

And thankfully we had a good counselor who didn't indulge me in that. And he's like, what you need to do is just see that as another opportunity to serve. That's who she is.

Speaker 8

So now every time he goes, oh, an opportunity to serve you another opportunity.

Speaker 1

Okay, so that's a bad application. But it is in principle. No, not every time. But that is a non-factual fantasy. That's just not who she is. She has other values, and that's okay. Just because they're not my values doesn't mean they're wrong values.

Now, that's not to say that there isn't room for spouses to grow and to be able to sharpen each other. But at the same time, it's not my job to change her. And that's who she is. It is an opportunity to serve.

When I'm at my best, and when I'm walking with Jesus and I'm filled with his spirit, that is there. You know what I mean? I thought that was great advice that he gave.

Speaker 2

I do, too.

Speaker 3

It is. That's good advice.

Speaker 2

I think it's easy for all of us to do that, to see little things, and it just. They don't meet what our expectations are.

Speaker 3

I mean, when we were first married, on staff with Athletes in Action at the University of Nebraska, we went out to dinner. I think it was dinner. And one of the things Ann... and it's still 44 years later, it's still there.

I thought, I can change this. She loses things—loses her watch, and she's lost her sunglasses in this room, and she's still upset about that. I thought, I can fix this. This was the first year of marriage.

She left her mittens on the restaurant table. So, I took them. Then we got in the car, and she goes, "So, I don't remember where my mittens are."

Speaker 2

I said, oh, I left. I. I opened the car door and said, I left my mittens in the. In the restaurant. I'm going to go get him.

Speaker 3

And I just let her go.

Speaker 8

Oh, no.

Speaker 3

Into the restaurant, thinking, this will show her.

Speaker 1

This will teach her.

Speaker 3

She comes out, she goes, I couldn't find them. I don't know where they are.

And I go, here they are. She's like, what are you doing?

I'm like, I'm teaching you. You gotta know where your stuff is. This is part of what you do as an adult.

Guess what? That has never changed.

Speaker 6

Someone slept on the couch that night.

Speaker 1

If you said the adult part.

Speaker 6

I did not say that. Okay.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Only a few would say that.

Speaker 2

I was so kind, like, oh, thank you. Thank you so much for teaching me how to be responsible.

No, I did not say that. I said, I've been like this my whole life, and you think you're gonna teach me this?

It's not gonna happen, so you might as well give up.

Speaker 3

You know what? It's a beautiful thing now, but is it? Not really. Not really.

Speaker 1

So, you know the dark side of the non-factual, whatever we call those, the non-factual fantasies, is fantastical fantasies. Fantastical fantasies. There's a dark side to that of. Yes.

On the one hand, it's just, you know, her leaving stuff out is annoying. But I also, like, you start believing lies. And I'm thinking, man, I mean, if she loved me, she would do this. And it's such a small little thing.

So if she can't do this small little thing, she must not love me. And that is completely a lie. You know what I mean? That is just not factual at all. But that's the ridiculous thought pattern you can get into.

Speaker 8

And it's a burden that you put on their shoulders because then I live every day under the umbrella of, well, if I don't get to the dishes in the sink, then he doesn't feel loved.

Speaker 1

And unless you as a person and who you are and what you value, then you don't love me. Like that is a fantasy.

Speaker 2

I remember mowing the grass one time, which.

Speaker 3

And by the way, everybody's always like, your wife mows the grass.

Speaker 2

I love mowing.

Speaker 6

Yeah, yeah, you always have to defend that.

Speaker 3

Everybody gets on me. But she lost.

Speaker 2

But I remember, though, having kids, I was thinking, why am I always mowing the grass? Why isn't he even home to mow the grass? Why is this always on my shoulders and my responsibility?

And then there's something about taking a breath and talking to God and complaining to God. When you complain to God about your spouse, it doesn't go well. He doesn't let us get away with it. And so I'm like, "Lord, don't you think he should be mowing the grass? Is this my responsibility?"

And then this question came to my mind: Do you like mowing the grass? And I'm like, yes, what are you complaining about? It was so convicting and yet so true. I remember thinking, I do love mowing the grass.

I quit complaining about it because I thought, that's ridiculous. This is an unending cycle. I feel like the enemy of our marriage, who is Satan, likes to take us down this path. If he loved me... Exactly what you're saying, Grace. If he loved me. If she loved me. And man, that's a footprint.

Speaker 3

And by the way, I'm on the grass every week now. And that's just. I love you.

Speaker 8

That reminds me of early on in marriage where another studio apartment conflict came up, where it was an election night and he wanted to stay up and watch the election results come in.

And I was sick and I wanted to go to sleep, and I'm not a good sleeper. I can't sleep. If he's got the TV on and the lights on, I can't sleep.

And that's how I felt. I felt like, if he cared about me at all right now, I am sick. If he cared about me at all right now, he would turn it off.

And he's thinking, this only happens once.

Speaker 1

Every leader of the free world, who's it gonna be?

Speaker 3

So what do you do with that? Do you actually put it away and say, you know what? My fantasy is gonna be something he can't deliver?

Speaker 1

Honestly, what difference did it make if I knew who the president was that night or not? Yeah. I mean, I didn't take a vow to make sure I know who the president to nourish and cherish her.

Speaker 8

I think. You know, it's weird to say, but I think that there is room for grieving those things. For grieving those things that you expected to have in your spouse to grieve that they aren't that way.

But then grieving those things allows you to then see all the riches of who they are and what they do bring to the table.

Speaker 2

I had a women's conference because we had a guest that talked about having a funeral for your unmet expectations. He said, and what I said to the women was, I want you to write down. We're just gonna do this one time. Write down the things you're grieving that your spouse doesn't have that you thought they would.

So they wrote them down, and then we burned them. It's kind of like we had the funeral. We had the dirge. We had the mourning and the grieving. And sometimes it takes longer than just a talk.

But I think it's important to do that, Maria, that we place those in a casket and we bury them.

Speaker 8

Even if you have those funerals and you think, okay, I've let go of this thing, and this may never be a part of this person's life, and how they interact with me in this marriage, like, I have to let this expectation go.

They will come back and surprise you. Yes, they will come back and surprise you and grow in ways that you don't expect and do things for you that you didn't think would ever happen.

Speaker 2

Better than you even expected.

Speaker 3

I mean, when you say that makes me think, okay, how's Bruce surprised you?

Speaker 8

There's just small moments, like, I'm a spontaneous person. I love spontaneity. I love romance. And he's just not. He likes to plan. He likes to know what's gonna happen.

That was just something that I had to let go of, like, oh, well, this kind of thing. Like these lovely, wild, romantic, spontaneous moments that there may not be a lot of those. There may not be any of those in our marriage.

And he has surprised me. Things that he does not enjoy. Like when we came down to Florida for our vision, we were at Disney Springs, like, dancing with me when there was live music in public. Something I thought would never happen, but it happened spontaneously, just little moments like that.

And he continues to surprise me.

Speaker 6

I remember talking to a friend named T.J., and he was telling me that when you realize you're disillusioned about something, we often think of the word disillusion or disillusionment as having an all-negative context. Like, "I'm disillusioned about this," or "disillusioned about that."

Think about the word for a second. You are disillusioned. You've lost the illusion. So all of a sudden, you have an opportunity to embrace reality.

I've kind of carried that with me. Shout out to T.J.! If there are moments where it's like I'm feeling disillusioned about something—about you, or a relationship, or just life in general.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 6

I could sit there and spiral about it, spiral downward and be discouraged. Or I could be like, okay, this isn't what I thought it was. What's actually true? What can I celebrate, be excited about?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 8

Well.

Speaker 7

And I keep thinking of when we talked about keeping score, like, keeping score of the good things, or there's another secret on *Married with Benefits* that talks about believing the best. I'm a very positive person, but if I can get negative, I then very quickly spiral.

Even just thinking about a lot of the secrets are, okay, we need to recognize the hard things. We need to grieve the hard things. But also, what can we celebrate?

And so I feel like believing the best and keeping the good and finding the illusion of that, I feel like, is really sweet.

Speaker 3

I mean, that's the factual fantasy. He just sort of defined it. And I thought this as we closed. I thought, you know, and it just came to me, maybe this is a good thought. Maybe it's really bad.

But when I think of Ryan doing the, you know, the gap between expectations and reality, we fill it with disappointment. What if we filled that gap with grace? What if we thought, if we just flipped that whole thought? Because we are disappointed, but it's like, we can take that disappointment and go, my spouse is... it's never gonna happen. It isn't.

Like, we keep trying, like, please put away, you know, whatever it is, it's not gonna happen. She's gonna keep losing her phone four times a day. We found it one time on our bumper of our car, and we drove like five miles, and it was still in our bumper. And now I laugh like, that is hilarious.

Cause she dinged it like, oh, it's in the car. Okay, let's go. And now it's like the grace is like, I love it about her. I mean, it's still frustrating, and I've got a million that she has to deal with me. But when you fill in that gap instead of disappointment with, I'm going to give grace because she's given me grace. He's given me grace. That's a factual fantasy that will bring.

Speaker 6

Us is not what God does with us. How often could he say, well, you're falling this short in this way every second. And his grace makes up the difference.

Speaker 2

And if our spouse met all of our expectations, they'd become our God and we wouldn't need our savior.

Speaker 3

I mean, this is some great stuff. And let me just say, if you want help in your marriage, I mean, family life, we have resource after resource that hits right where you're living.

And if you want some of that we've pulled together, really some of our best stuff, it's free because we want to help you.

And you go to familylife.com marriage help and it's there for you and it's going to help.

Speaker 2

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