FamilyLife Today®

Dave Wilson: So, I was thinking back. You'll remember this moment. 5 years after I committed my life to become a Christ follower. You know, I was a junior in college. We've been married. We've been in ministry with Cru, Athletes in Action, chaplain of the Nebraska Cornhuskers. Now, we're going to seminary

Ann Wilson: Mhm.

Dave Wilson: in our 5th year of my Christian walk and our 3rd year of marriage. And do you remember what I said?

Ann Wilson: Yes. Because yes. I know where you're going.

Dave Wilson: You know where I'm going? It scared you to death, didn't it?

Ann Wilson: Yeah, because you're sitting on the couch and you have the Bible open. I walk in. I said, "Hey, what are you doing?" He goes, "You know what? I'm reading this stuff. I don't even know if I believe any of it."

Dave Wilson: Welcome to Family Life Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Ann Wilson: And I'm Ann Wilson and you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today.

Dave Wilson: Any of what? You got to be specific.

Ann Wilson: Any of what's in the Bible. And I said, "We're in full-time ministry and you're wondering about this?"

Dave Wilson: Yeah, I mean it just hit me very strongly. This could all be just a just a hoax.

Ann Wilson: That's what you said.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, it's like what are we what are we doing with our lives?

Ann Wilson: How do we know it's true? That's what you said.

Dave Wilson: What if none of this is true? And remember do you remember what you said?

Ann Wilson: I remember I said, "Well, I know that I believe it. You better figure it out."

Dave Wilson: Yeah, I mean it shocked you and I went on a I went on a journey cuz I had to find out. Now, my journey was more intellectual and I needed evidence. And I found it, which is the reason I'm sitting here today. But that journey that I was on is a pretty common journey.

Ann Wilson: Especially today, I think.

Dave Wilson: I think. And it's become very significant today cuz we're hearing about it. I think through social media that a lot of Christians are taking that journey as I am. And we've got in in the studio today the expert on deconversion or deconstruction. In fact, we're going to ask him what the difference is between those two. But we have John Marriott in the studio. John, welcome to Family Life Today.

John Marriott: Thanks for having me. Great to be here.

Dave Wilson: And you're over there smiling. What what are you thinking?

John Marriott: That you set the bar pretty high by calling me the expert in in in in in these two fields.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, tell us what you do at Biola in Talbot.

John Marriott: Yeah, so at Biola University, Christian University in Southern California, I teach in the philosophy department part-time as an adjunct.

Ann Wilson: Well, you're married. You have a couple kids and you just shared a story with us about Mariah, your daughter.

John Marriott: Yes. We have our best conversations when she's going to bed. And I go in and we talk. We pray before she goes to sleep. And usually that's when she will ask me a question, probably because she doesn't want to go to sleep. But these are questions that are genuine for her that are rolling around in the back of her mind. And she said to me, you know, my father passed away. So, she has been thinking about what that means and where he is. And she said to me,

Ann Wilson: She doesn't want to go to sleep. Mhm.

John Marriott: you know, I don't think I believe in heaven. And I had a sort of a bit of a panic attack because I thinking, what do you mean you don't you don't believe in heaven? And then she said, "I don't want to tell you that because you know, like Jesus is really important and he's really important to you and and it might make you feel bad to hear me say I don't believe in in heaven." Now, with everything in me, I wanted to say, well, here's why you should believe in heaven. It's like

Ann Wilson: Let me give you the evidence.

John Marriott: That's right. I don't want you to start thinking like that heaven's not real and then, you know, that's the first domino to fall and then everything else goes with it. But I I I restrained myself and and asked her, you know, why. And told her I thanked her for being honest with me and and sharing that with me and wanted to let her know that regardless of whether she believes in heaven or not, I love her. And and then as we were talking and I was asking her questions, what it what really she was saying in her limited vocabulary and ability to express her thoughts was I can't really conceive of where my grandfather is right now.

I I don't understand where he is, what his existence is. And it's not so much that I don't believe that there is a a heaven, but it just I don't know what to make of it.

Ann Wilson: Yeah.

John Marriott: And I think if I would have jumped in and started giving her explanations and answers, I would have shut down any further conversation she might have when she's expressing some kinds of doubt. And I would never really have gotten to the place where I really found out what the root of the problem was.

Ann Wilson: That story right there, John, is what every parent I well, maybe Dave, you're not like this, but that scares me. I remember when our kids started questioning, it starts putting a panic in me like I don't know how to answer some of their questions. And I think all of us as parents are wondering like where are these doubts coming from? Where are these fears? How do I answer their intellectual questions? And as as kids, as adults are leaving the church, what can we know and do about it?

Dave Wilson: And and here's the question. Our kids leaving the church? Cuz when you see the stats, it sounds like an epidemic. And you know, so fill us in. What is happening?

John Marriott: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that without any doubt, the number of people who identify as Christians in the United States is dropping precipitously. I read this morning a study from the Pew Research Foundation that said within one generation if trends continue that the way that they are that Christians will no longer be the majority in the United States and those who identify as a none or no religion, not necessarily an atheist, but no religion, will potentially be if trends continue, will be the majority of of people in the United States. Well, that will be their perspective.

Dave Wilson: Right. In one generation.

John Marriott: In one generation. And then the thing that Pew said that was really fascinating was that the reason why is because so many people who once identified as Christians no longer are identifying as Christians and are identifying as nones. This is not there's a large group of people who are growing up in sort of secularized, maybe agnostic homes. That number is not necessarily growing. What's growing is the people who grew up in Christian homes and who are leaving that home. Other stats from Pew have said that people are leaving religion at five to six times the historic rate.

In 2015, Pew came out and they said for every one person who becomes a Christian, four people leave the faith. For every one that becomes a Christian, four leave the faith. And the gen yeah.

Dave Wilson: No, no. That's just That's horrible to hear.

John Marriott: The general social survey said 23% of Americans identify as nones, which is the same number as evangelicals in the United States in 2019. Not as Christians, right? Not as in the broad sort of terms of what it means to be a Christian sociologically speaking. But as far as evangelicals in our in our population go, nones and evangelicals identify at about the same number. But the really interesting fact is is that 78% of the nones once identified as evangelicals.

Ann Wilson: Right. Mhm.

John Marriott: So, they have left the Christian faith.

Dave Wilson: Wow. Yeah.

John Marriott: And I think the most ominous stat of all and we could go on, but this one I think is is the most significant, is the Pine Tops Foundation did a study. And their conclusion was this, that the next 30 years will represent the largest missions opportunity in the history of America. Here's the quote. It's the largest and fastest numerical shift in religious affiliation in the history of this country. Even in the most optimistic scenarios, Christian affiliation in the United States shrinks dramatically. And in our base case, over 1 million youth at least nominally in the church today will choose to leave each year for the next three decades.

35 million youth raised in families that call themselves Christians will say they are not by 2050.

Ann Wilson: It makes me cry. Like I'm teary. It makes me sad. And as a parent, as a grandparent, it makes me a little panicky. Like what is happening and what has happened and what can we do?

Dave Wilson: Yeah. And again, I called you an expert earlier. I know you're not the expert, but you wrote your doctoral dissertation on this, right? It's what you've immersed yourself in. You're looking at these stats. You're studying the world and even the US. What do you think is happening? Why? Why is this happening?

John Marriott: Yeah, that's my dissertation. Yeah. There are a number of factors, right? Um, in the book Recipe for Disaster, I try and cash out this phenomenon in terms of a of a recipe. And all recipes have three things in common. They have ingredients, then they also have preparation, how you prepare the ingredients, and then they have a cooking environment. And I think the same thing is true when it comes to religious deidentification or leaving the faith. Some people, you know, we'll call apostasy for a theological word or just deconversion occurs when all of those three things come together in in the right way.

Some of the ingredients are personality traits that people have. There is kind of a profile. So, that would be the ingredients. And then there's the preparation, how the church and how Christian parents how they take those ingredients and how they form them, how they shape them. And then there is the cooking environment, which is our culture, right? That's where the these ingredients that have been prepared either well or maybe not so well get baked, get cooked. And the the environment that we live in is an is an increasingly secular one that makes it much harder, I think, to identify as a Christian than it would have 50 years ago.

Ann Wilson: Mhm.

Dave Wilson: Deconversion you you just used that term. I've also heard the term deconstruction. Is it the same?

Ann Wilson: Mhm. What's the difference?

John Marriott: Uh, no. They're not the same. So, a deconversion would be when someone says, "I no longer believe these truths and I no longer associate or affiliate with this group anymore," right? I have I have taken myself out of the sort of the sociological group, the community that I was a part of, the church that I went to. I don't affiliate with that group anymore. And I because I don't believe in these doctrines or the claims that the group makes. And it's an undoing in a sense of the conversion experience that they had. However, instead of converting to and becoming part of a broader community that has a particular set of ideas, usually when people deconvert, they deconvert almost into a vacuum, right?

They say, "I don't know where I'm going. I don't know what I believe. I don't have a community to be a part of. But I know that I don't belong here anymore." That would be deconversion. Deconstruction is kind of this term that gets used in a lot of different ways by a lot of different people. And there is not a consensus within the evangelical world whether or not we should be using this word or not. There are some, you know, evangelicals who would say deconstruction is just a bad word. It's a bad term that comes out of a a bad postmodern philosophy.

And it signifies a movement within Christianity that wants to cause young people to question what they believe because it is inherently unjust, misogynistic, racist, etc. Then there are other people who will say, no, deconstruction really just means I have been handed this Christian faith by my parents or by my church community and told that this is Christianity. But there are some things in it that I'm not sure I think line up with with what the Bible teaches. What I'm going to do is I'm going to deconstruct. I'm going to take it apart. I'm going to look at the pieces.

And then I 'm going to reconstruct it in a way that I think is hopefully more biblical and one that makes a little bit more sense to me.

Ann Wilson: And Dave, that's exactly what you did.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, I was going to say deconstruction in that way can be a good thing.

John Marriott: Deconstruction in that way can be a good thing because it can lead to a a faith that seems more genuinely your own. It can lead to a faith that maybe has discovered some and and sort of the current fashionable word is some some toxic elements in in that faith. And it can produce a healthier faith that that someone can have and and maybe one that is easier in a way to hold on to. Now, that doesn't mean that we should be just looking for a faith that lines up with everything that we like and we get rid of things that and we reject things that the Bible says that that we don't like so it's easier for us to to hold on to.

But when something becomes your own because you really thought through it,

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah.

John Marriott: that can really be a healthy thing, but it can also be a dangerous thing because it can lead to either sort of a falling into a heretical view of Christianity, which is kind of a self-styled version that where we go through a la carte like a salad bar and pick the things that we like and reject the things that we don't like about the Christian faith. And then what ends up happening is we we have a a Christian faith or we have a Jesus that actually looks more like us than Jesus himself. And And the Bible gets neutered from being the thing that shapes and forms us to just reflecting our own values.

That's a potential problem with deconstruction. And then the other problem is just it could lead to deconversion.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

John Marriott: It really can. And And an example of this is Bart Campolo, Tony Campolo's son, who which is a name will be familiar for a lot of folks. Really a well-known evangelical throughout the 1980s and 1990s. Maybe one of the the most well-known evangelicals in the country. And his son had been involved in full-time Christian ministry for years. And then began really deconstructing his faith cuz he couldn't make certain ideas that he adopted fit within his Christian worldview. And then eventually came to the place where he said, I don't believe this at all anymore. So, that would be the distinction between deconversion and deconstruction.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, so it sounds like when a person walks through deconstruction as we said, it could be good. Mine was pulling apart almost every tenant that I was taught and believed and taken a good look at it. And I decided it's all true. I mean there were things but as a parent, when your son or daughter starts to do that, it scares you, doesn't it? It could happen at 12 or 14 or 15.

Ann Wilson: It does. I think I think our oldest son was five and we had just we had just read the story of David and Goliath. And so, you know, and it's kind of a children's version of it. So, it's not getting too detailed into you know, chop his head off. But I remember I was turning on the light and he said, "Hey mom, he said, why is it okay for David to kill Goliath? But doesn't the Bible say we shouldn't kill or murder?" Those are great questions, but again, I'm thinking

Dave Wilson: 5-year-old. Our kids are really advanced, okay?

Ann Wilson: What's What's his future going to be, you know? He's he's a thinker. And I love that Dave came in. He heard that. He said, "Man, what a great question. Look at you thinking and analyzing that." And I'm like, it's not a great question. You just need to believe, you know? But I think that's really healthy for Dave, for a parent to say as you did with your daughter. What a great thought. What a great question and to not panic even though you might be panicking inside.

John Marriott: That's a That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yes. That's right. Yeah, and and it's because I want to be able to control the situation, right? I I want everything to be the way that I want it to be and I 'm going to try and do everything I can to try and make sure that she she believes. And And sometimes in making sure I can maybe do some damage and and push her away. I'm convinced that young people who grew up in Christian homes need to get saved maybe three times twice at least. And here's what I mean by that.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, what do you mean?

John Marriott: So, I I came to know the Lord when I was about 5 years old. And I think I sincerely believed. I think I was genuinely born again. But when I got to 14 years old, I sat in a message at Ompah Camp Bible Camp in Northern Ontario. And the the preacher said, you know, God has no grandchildren. You need to believe because you believe, not because your parents believe. This is not your parents' faith. And so, I said, yeah, I have to make it mine. So, I went from, you know, I believed when I was a kid.

Then I had to sit down and say, God, I really want this to be of me. But in that moment, I never questioned the truth of it. I questioned my commitment to it. And then in my early 20s, I went, you know, I committed myself to this when I was 14. But I got to be honest, I never really investigated the truth of it. And I had to go through that process, which was a crisis in my life, a crisis of faith. And at the back end of that, I came out and said, yes, okay, it really is true.

Do I think I got saved three times? No, of course I don't think that. But I think that for young people growing up in Christian homes, there is this progression that everyone has to go through where they have to ask themselves, is this really my faith? And then the next question is, yeah, but why is it really my faith? And I think that that's important for parents to do.

Dave Wilson: That's That's a great journey. When we were first parents now now our oldest is 36 now and we got six grandkids cuz this is a long time ago. I picked up a book. I can't tell you the the author and it was called The Dangers of Growing Up in a Christian Home. And I remember I picked it up because I did not grow up in a Christian home. Now, I'm a dad leading a Christian home. I thought, what are the dangers? You know, cuz I could do this. And that was the number one danger is that parents that are Christians want their kids to be Christians.

They obviously encourage their children to be Christians. And it freaks them out when their children have to make it their own. And the And the big idea of the book was you've got to let your child find his own faith. It can't be his parents' faith. Just exactly what you did. It's exactly what I had to do 5 years in. It's like I have to pull this thing apart and find out what is true and what I'm going to commit my life to. Here Here's a question for you. When When did you become a Christian?

What do you think? All right, Ann, quick question. What would I say is my favorite thing about you?

Ann Wilson: Is this a trick question?

Dave Wilson: See, this is why we need Spousology.

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Ann Wilson: And Dave, the answer was my sense of humor.

Dave Wilson: Sure, let's let's go with that.

John Marriott: I think I became a Christian at the young age of about five. I can remember praying with my mom and I can remember from then on having this very God-conscious awareness that God was there and that you know, I I needed to obey and I believed in Jesus. It was very simplistic, of course. It was very young. But throughout my elementary school years, there was also some fruit that I could look back on and see. And I think probably I genuinely had a relationship with the Lord. But it was when I was at when I was 14 at that Bible camp when I made a decision to say, oh, I I need to make this mine.

That's when things really changed. And if you're looking at my life as like a graph, then it would have the graph would have sharply gone up at that point.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Now, what do you say to parents? You're a parent. How do you encourage parents in this culture? You just read the stats. Like Ann said, it's scary in some regards.

Ann Wilson: Yeah. Give us some hope.

Dave Wilson: But it's also exciting that we live in such a time as this. So, how do you encourage a parent? You don't think it's exciting?

Ann Wilson: Is it exciting? I think that right there it is what a lot of us face in marriages. Like one parent's like, this is amazing. And I think that too, but I'm also scared. I'm scared that my kids are going to walk away. And so, yeah, it's both.

Dave Wilson: Right. Yeah, so what do you feel? What do you say?

John Marriott: As far as encouraging parents? Well, I think that, you know, Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And he is the the you know, the same Lord that people worshiped in the 1st century when they were going through persecution, when it was really hard to believe then. And he sustained and he carried the church through. And I think he he does that today. He's a He's an ever present hope in times of trouble that we can go to. And And then there are things that we can do, I think, that can help mitigate some of the effect that culture has on why people believe the things they do or don't or leave the faith.

And there are some things that we can avoid doing that set folks up for a crisis of faith. And I think that that those are the things that I I spend maybe most of my time thinking about is listening to the stories of people who have left and trying to figure out what is it that we have some control over because in the in the Recipe for Disaster, you don't have control over the ingredients, the temperament of your children, no control over it. Personality traits, no control. Things that they value, no control. Well, you can influence, but no con no absolute control.

The culture that we live in that shapes and forms and bakes us, we have no control over shaping and changing that. But what we do have is this middle piece of preparing the ingredients for the culture. And And that's the part that I I think a lot about is how do we go about working with with our young people in such a way that we avoid setting them up for a crisis and that we can instill a faith that can endure.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah, that's good. I think, you know, looking back, one of the things did a lot of things wrong as a parent. We wrote a book called No Perfect Parents cuz we were not perfect parents. But I think one of the things that we might have done right and one of the things that I had to do when I sort of deconstructed was doubt is okay. I think that was one of the things I had to wrestle with when I was 28 at the time. I didn't really grow up in the church, but I was around church enough to know that doubt was sin.

You couldn't question. You could never doubt. That was sin. You just if you had a question, it was not allowed to be asked. You just had faith. You just believed. And I think it's okay to question. I think it's a really good thing. And so, as a parent, when your child starts questioning as you said, as yours has and ours has, it's okay to go, yeah, let's embrace that. God's not afraid of your questions. In fact, there's answers to your questions. Ask them and let's go search for the answer. There are answers instead of It's easy to freak out as a parent.

Ann Wilson: And to remember that God cares about this more than we do. He loves our kids more than we do.

Dave Wilson: Mhm.

Ann Wilson: Talk to God about it. I remember just And I still do this like, Lord, I'm petrified of what I'm seeing. Lord, I pray that you would protect my kids. I pray that you would answer our kids. I pray that you would put people around our kids that would be able to answer their questions in a way that would really meet their needs. But Lord, I pray that they would know the real Jesus and that they would love you. And And like those things matter. And when I feel like I can't do anything, that helps me to remember that there is a bigger God that I can trust.

And John, thank you like cuz you've done your study and you've thought about this a lot. So, thanks for doing that for us.

Dave Wilson: Oh, you're welcome. Okay, you may not know this, but we want to hear from you.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, like literally hear you.

Dave Wilson: You can leave us a voice message with your questions, concerns, praise reports, or whatever. You know, maybe Dave said something that you totally disagree with.

Ann Wilson: Oh, why do you have to pick on me? Maybe it's you said something.

Dave Wilson: Maybe probably.

Ann Wilson: Or maybe it was inspiring. See? See, I was nice.

Dave Wilson: And No. I know you're always nicer than me.

Ann Wilson: I don't think so. Or maybe you just want us to answer a question or explore a certain topic. Whatever you want to say, you get to call and say.

Dave Wilson: All you have to do is go to speakpipe.com/familylifetoday. Again, that's speakpipe.com/familylifetoday or get the link in the show notes.

Ann Wilson: Again, it's speakpipe.com/familylifetoday. What a great day with John Marriott. This guy's deep.

Dave Wilson: He sure is.

Ann Wilson: He really is. What a great thinker. Again, his book is called Before You Go, Uncovering Hidden Factors in Faith Loss. And you can get your copy. Just go to familylifetoday.com, click on the link in the show notes, and buy it there.

Dave Wilson: And we'll have John back with us tomorrow. So, see you again on Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a Cru ministry. 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.