FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

Last week, Connor, our senior in high school, had some kids in his class that were on our Instagram, and they were trying to embarrass him. They said, "Hey, Connor, look, your parents are selling a book about sex."

They thought it would embarrass him. And just totally deadpan, he looked at them and said, "I can't get you a discount."

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Speaker 3

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at family life today, today.com. this is family Life Today. All right, we got Dave and Ashley Willis back in the studio. It's always a good day.

Speaker 2

It's always a good day.

Speaker 3

Now, we started something with you guys yesterday, talking about naked marriage, in a sense, is be naked. Not physically, although that's part of it as well. But emotionally. And we got into secrets.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 3

And I love that topic. Cause I think a lot of marriages. I don't know the number. Am I right?

Speaker 2

Do you guys know a percentage of a lot of marriages say they would have a secret?

Speaker 1

That's a really fascinating.

Speaker 2

Take a guess. Let's talk about this.

Speaker 3

You guys are the experts on this. You better know this.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Barna says 87.3% just.

Speaker 4

You mean in general, not just Christian couples?

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

Maybe 70 keep some level of secret. And it's like. I'm not saying, like they're harboring some big sin. Like I've had, you know, they've had an affair, and they're not saying.

But it could be hidden. Some money they keep aside. My husband doesn't need to know about these purchases. I think that we can have a lot of secrets about finances, secrets about just certain parts of our lives.

There's a temptation to compartmentalize and say, this little part of my life is just for me.

Speaker 2

Even our past.

Speaker 1

Yeah, even our past, for sure.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 2

It'd be interesting to ask your spouse tonight, do you have any secrets?

Speaker 3

And there's some just going. There's no way I'm going there. I am not going there.

And yesterday, I mean, Ashley talked about anxiety. Dave was pornography. And again, they're like, that's what you talked about yesterday. Yeah. Go back and listen.

Because we talked about Dave walking through the struggle with pornography, Ashley finding it on the computer. But we didn't talk about how does a wife respond? Because that's our story as well.

Speaker 2

How does she respond?

Speaker 3

And it could be the other way around. It could be the husband has to respond to his wife's pornography, struggle. It isn't just a main thing.

Speaker 2

And I thought even yesterday, Ashley, when you shared about going through anxiety and you never told Dave, and so you're battling. But the thing that hit you the most, that was most helpful, was that Dave looked you in the eyes, basically saying, "I'm not rejecting you. I'm here with you, and I'm going to stay with you."

So that was like this simple step. What is something that we can do as women? When my husband or my wife just told me they've held onto this secret of porn for a long time, my...

Speaker 4

First thing I always tell them is, it's okay to feel the feelings that you have. Like, you have every right to be angry, upset, confused, frustrated, disgusted. Just sad, you know? And I think there's a grief process that we go through whenever our spouse reveals a lie to us, and especially when it's a betrayal of any kind. And porn is a betrayal. It's a sexual betrayal. And it cuts deep.

You know, I think it surprises a lot of wives, the grief they feel. Because when I say grief, I think a lot of times people always think somebody has to pass away to experience grief, but really it's losing anything. And so what you're losing in porn, like when your spouse confesses to a porn addiction or a porn habit, is you're losing that dream of what you thought, how you thought you really were as a couple. It shatters it because there's been this big looming secret.

And so it really puts a tinge on those memories for a while. And you're just like, when he said he was going here, he was really looking at porn. Or when I was on my trip with my girlfriends, he was probably at home looking at porn. You know, like, there's all these things we assume.

Speaker 2

I think I even said it to Dave. I don't even know who you are.

Speaker 4

Right, right. Who are you? Like, can I ever trust you again? Like, we start thinking. Cause we're so that anger really, which is part of the grief process, can get a hold of us.

And so I would just. That's my first thing I always tell women who are going through this is it's okay to feel your feelings, but don't allow your feelings to end up being your compass, because that's going to take you down all kinds of rabbit trails that will not lead to health.

It can really result after you go through all these feelings. It can really land on just insecurity. And that was something I really battled, is what was wrong with me that Dave went to porn.

Speaker 2

It stirs it all up and brings it to the surface.

Speaker 4

Absolutely. When this came out, I don't think I had confessed to the anxiety yet and the depression, but I was already in the throes of that. So it wasn't because of the porn stuff. People always ask me that question. That's why I want to make that clear. But it didn't help. I was so riddled with all that, and I had gained some weight through that process of anxiety and depression because I was eating my feelings.

And so then that really made me think, "Oh, I drove him to it." You know, like you start accusing yourself. Let me just be very clear: that is not the case. It's never the wife's fault if her husband looks at porn, or the husband's fault if his wife looks at porn. This is a personal issue that affects the marriage.

A lot of times, I find that because it can cut so deep, and then we find out the truth of what's going on, we want to help our husband. I find that a lot of wives, including myself, put ourselves in a position of becoming an investigator for our husband. Right?

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 4

So then also to protect ourselves right now.

Speaker 3

What do you mean investigator?

Speaker 4

Oh, yeah. Do you want to speak to that?

Speaker 2

I mean, I'm just searching for all the things and the computer. You're looking on the computer, you're wondering. I'm asking a lot more questions like, where are you going? What are you doing?

Dave struggled when he went on Lions trips, on the road with the Detroit Lions. And so he's alone in a hotel, and I am pestering him. This is my control piece that I'm finding security in my control.

Like, well, what are you going to do about it? Because he would just tell me how he struggled with that, hun.

Speaker 3

I mean, this is 40 some years ago. But yeah, back then there was no computer. It was literally the little box on top of the TV in hotel rooms that you could rent.

And I call it now the doom box because it was the first time, the first alliance trip I ever did. 1985 Seattle Seahawks. And there was that box.

And it's like, here there's three movies that were in the theaters and then there's three that are porn. And back then it was not even graphic porn like today, but it was porn.

And I remember looking at the little card because this was new movie title will not be charged to your room until after five minutes. That's how it was back in the day.

Speaker 2

It Was like a free preview.

Speaker 3

Yeah. So I'm literally standing there looking at it, going, well, these three movies are absolutely off limits for a Christian man.

And I'm like, but nobody will know if I don't watch five minutes. And I bet I didn't watch 30 seconds and I turned it off.

And that 30 seconds, you know, changed everything. It's like images, everything. Guilt.

And the biggest thing, I now have a secret.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Because there's no way I'm telling Ann. You know why? Because I'll never do it again.

Speaker 4

Right.

Speaker 3

That's why.

Speaker 4

Right.

Speaker 3

I'll never do it again.

Speaker 2

A lot of people think that this is a one time only. Yeah. Or I'm gonna. This is the last time.

Speaker 4

Right.

Speaker 1

And this would only hurt them to.

Speaker 4

Tell them they don't need to know. Me keeping it is my cross to bear.

Speaker 2

Why should I, you know, by what I've done, I'll take care of this problem.

Speaker 3

We'll be good. Why bring it up? And little did I know, but I.

Speaker 2

Felt that it started a cycle. Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Trust what you feel like. If you feel like, oh, there's something off between us.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Trust that and ask the question.

Speaker 4

Right.

Speaker 2

But also have the guts to share it.

Speaker 3

I mean, that's great advice. So did we cut you off because your husband shares this secret? And you said, you know, don't follow your feelings.

Speaker 4

Right.

Speaker 3

Take your time. I mean, again, for us, it's. Didn't go that way.

Speaker 2

I wish I would have, because, I mean, I blew up. And I'm also a verbal processor, so everything I'm thinking, I'm saying, so I'm just dropping bombs, you know, over and over.

Speaker 3

I remember running away in the house.

Speaker 2

Upstairs, downstairs, and Dave hates conflict. And I don't. I'm like, let's talk about all of it. And it's. I was watching him just continue to shrink into shame. But I was like, I don't care. You deserve to shrink.

And so I wish back then I would have said, wow, I'm so angry. I'm so hurt. I need to pull away. I wish I'd have just pulled away to be able to sort through some of the things for a minute so that I wouldn't lash out with my words and wound him with my words.

But that takes a big step of maturity. I don't think I was there at the time. I wish. And nobody was talking about it back then, either.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And you were blindsided, too. It's like when you're. That just comes out of nowhere, but it's hard to predict how any of us could respond with that kind of news. But you two worked through it. That's the main thing.

Speaker 4

Exactly.

Speaker 1

Worked through it. Now here you are heading down the other side. You've helped just countless couples, as you guys have too. Well, thank you.

I think that's part of just God's goodness, how he doesn't waste any part of our story. He'll take the painful parts of our testimonies. And if we're willing to really trust him with that and work through it with him and find healing, then that'll be kind of the very place where you have credibility to speak into the lives of others.

Speaker 2

Let me ask you, Ashley, Cause I've had a lot of wives say to me, I don't wanna know. Oh, yeah, I'd rather not know. Like, you have a deal. Go ahead, do your thing. But I don't wanna know any of that. What do you say to those wives?

Speaker 4

I would say you're gonna have to know it if you truly wanna live naked and unashamed. Because that's where shame gets a foothold. And that's just not what God wants for us in our marriage, you know, and so we've got to talk through the hard things and then be the burden bearer.

And see, it's hard to be burden bearers together when sin is involved. But really, like we always say, it's never really his or her problem. It's our problem as far as how it affects us both. But I want to be really clear on this point.

So you talked about control, and that's where that investigator kind of role comes in that we tend to take on when we've been betrayed. And so I want to just tell wives, if you find yourself in that role of feeling like you have to watch everywhere your husband's eyes go and hold him accountable, or you have to, like you said, look on every, you know, computer and just really investigate all the time and just nitpick all the time and like you said, follow them around.

That's going to be maddening for you both. And I would tell wives, it's really not our job as wives to be our husband's keeper or investigator. He's got to take on the responsibility to get sober from porn and to take those steps necessary. And we, our job is to trust God in the process that God is doing a work inside of him that only he can do. Right.

Speaker 2

Pray your guts out, be on your face before God, because God hears every one of those prayers.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 2

Let me ask you this. You Guys have four boys. As a mom, I found myself investigating with our boys. Is that a bad thing or a good thing for parents to investigate all that?

Speaker 1

I think it's a vital thing when our kids are being raised under our roof in a world where all this temptation is at their fingertips in a way that it did not exist even in generations past. There's always been temptation, but there's never been the accessibility that they have now.

Just carrying around in your pocket a supercomputer that can access any image in the world. And you've got pornography producers that are intently targeting young people because they want to create addiction early on to get lifelong customers.

Speaker 2

And this is true for girls, too. They're targeting girls in a different way even.

Speaker 4

Yes, they are. Very much so.

Speaker 1

That's the highest. The most growing segment of the porn user population is female by far, and it's a growing segment.

So if you're listening and you're a woman, you're like, well, am I a weirdo? Because I have this problem too. Like, no, I mean, you've been targeted, and you're a human being. God created us all sexual beings. We're gonna have temptations, but we just all need to be aware that this is out there.

But, yeah, for our kids, we've got filtering devices which I still to this day have on mine. And I welcome that accountability.

Speaker 4

We did that early on. That was one thing that kind of helped me keep that investigator kind of tendency at bay, is knowing, okay, we need to do what we can do to put boundaries in place. Boundaries are essential, obviously. Like, don't go looking for porn. Like, put boundaries in place in your behavior. But also on your devices back, there weren't as many devices to protect.

As we've gone through our marriage, we still have those protections in place. Even more so for our boys. And I know with our boys in particular, we have open dialogue. We try to be that safe place where you can ask us anything, you can talk about anything.

Of course, you know, we've had conversations about this. Like, there's been incidents where I'll get, you know, with our filtering software, we use Custodia with a Q. That's the one we use these days. I love Covenant Eyes. There are many great ones out there. It blocks a website. Like, if they're looking up something that's pornographic, it blocks it.

But then it sends you an email and says, like, hey, so and so on their iPad looked this up. But it gives, you know, me, and it gives Dave, as parents, an opportunity to enter into the conversation. And so, like, I'll say, like, hey, did you just look up something that you probably shouldn't have? And they'll be like, oh, you know, I did. And then we'll talk about it.

Speaker 1

Like, it'll block it. It blocks it, but then it lets us know and.

Speaker 4

Yeah, right. But we try to take the shame off of it and really empower them. Like, listen, God is a God of boundaries for good reason. Because, you know, it's one thing to have curiosity. That's just how we are. And the human body is beautiful.

And I understand that you have questions, but we don't go looking on websites for that. Like, if you have a question about something, just come ask us. And I feel like it kind of keeps shame from taking root.

Speaker 1

Yeah. To really have the questions and the conversations that I think many of us grew up not having, maybe, you know, because it was a different time, different set of circumstances, but we as parents have to. We've got to lead the conversations and take the weirdness out of it that this is a gift that God created for marriage. The world's tried to counterfeit it and sabotage it, but Satan doesn't own sex. God does.

With all of our kids trying to have these conversations, I think that it's helped us, at least I think so, be a safe place for them. Even, like, we even have moments that we laugh about. Like, last week, Connor, our senior in high school, had some kids in his class that were on our Instagram, and they were trying to embarrass him, and they said, hey, Connor, look, your parents are selling a book about sex. And they thought it would embarrass him.

And just totally deadpan, he just looked at them and said, I can't get you a discount. It's just normal.

Speaker 4

It's just a normalizing.

Speaker 1

But speaking of resources, we do have a free resource that we want to give you with family life, *Nine Days to Great Sex*, where we talk about all these things.

And not only is it for married couples, but there are some tools in there, some conversation guides that can help you specifically as you're raising kids, teens, and adolescents, to help have those conversations.

If it just feels so intimidating to talk about these things, we've got some resources in that free downloadable book.

Speaker 2

And it's so good.

Speaker 1

Thank you.

Speaker 2

There are so many good things and helpful, practical things.

Speaker 3

I'll just tell you when you get it. You also find questions. Just the back half is all questions.

Speaker 2

So good.

Speaker 3

Every question you've ever wanted to ask somebody You've got it in there. And I won't even mention some of.

Speaker 1

Them, but they, they're very specific.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And again, that's @familylifetoday.com. It's right there and it's in our show notes. Hearing your story of that journey and ours is similar. Ours is probably before yours because we're a little older.

Having a wife as a partner is significant because Ann struggled at the beginning with anger, and again, nobody was talking about it back then. So we sort of were on this journey all by ourselves. But she got to a point where I feel like now she's my partner; she's my soldier in this battle with me. Because the battle never ends. It's still there.

But knowing that for a husband to have his wife as a partner is what a gift. At the same time, I don't stay pure because of her. It's my choice. I have to decide to access God's power. This weekend, I'm preaching on the spirit power of God, the supernatural power of God. It's amazing that He gives you self-control to do this, but you have a partner with you that you're not hiding anymore. There are no secrets.

Speaker 2

Well, I think when I have wives come up to me and say, "I don't wanna know," what I usually say is, I can see how you feel bad because it's hard to hear. We don't wanna hear; it makes us feel bad and stirs up our own insecurities. But God may wanna use that to help heal that.

But I will say I've been married to Dave for 44 years. I know everything about him. I know his weaknesses, I know his strengths. I know those sin patterns that he has, the struggles, his temptations. I know everything about him. It's exactly what you're saying. We are totally naked, intimately, in terms of our souls.

I know him and I still love him. And I said if I didn't know his struggle, I wouldn't feel the intimacy that I feel with him, and I wouldn't want to miss out on that.

Speaker 4

That's right.

Speaker 2

But I'm thinking this too. Like last week I had a small group with these 20 and 30-year-old women. Some are married, some are single, and the sexual baggage that they're carrying is unbelievable. I mean, I sat there listening to the trauma they've gone through.

I'm thinking even the sexual abuse I've gone through in every marriage. I feel like people are walking in with these huge loads on their back of trauma and sexual baggage.

And you talk about this in this free download, your ebook. Are people having more baggage today than they've ever had? Because I'm thinking they have.

Speaker 1

It certainly feels like that. I think it's always been there. People have always had sexual baggage, and maybe in generations past, it wasn't talked about enough. But I do think the prevalence of pornography has fueled that.

Speaker 2

Me, too.

Speaker 1

Because now it's like we're, as a culture, supercharged related to sex and the sexual imagery that causes us to look at people as objects to use rather than souls to be cherished. And then that plays out in relationships; that plays out in abuse. So many people are hurting, and, man, my heart goes out to all of them.

Because any form of sexual baggage, whether it's a result of your own sinful choices or abusive situations, of sin that was inflicted on you through no fault of your own, someone else's sin, where you were a victim, all of that carries such deep scars that take time to heal.

But God can bring healing to all of it. He really, really can.

Speaker 3

Now, do you. Do you encourage couples to tell?

Speaker 1

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3

Talk about. It's like one of those secrets, like, you gotta tell. Like, do I talk about my past experiences?

Speaker 2

Yeah. Give us a tip of opening the.

Speaker 3

Conversation, because I remember one time Ann and I, when our first year of marriage, we went to a wedding, and we're sitting there. I can still see the church. It's in our hometown.

And, you know, we thought you tell each other everything, so we're newlyweds. And so Ann, I think, turned to me and said, "Is there anybody here that you slept with? You know, before we were dating?" I'm like, "Yeah, her."

And, yeah. I was like, that was probably not a wise thing. You know, it felt like I was being naked and unashamed. But the way it happened just... it just was like, oh, great.

Speaker 2

I didn't need to know details, guys.

Speaker 4

Right?

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

So it couples up. How do you bring that? Whether it's abuse? Cause again, Ann told me that part, and I just dismissed it, like, well, that was 20 years ago. You're good. Had no idea. You're not good. And so coach couples up. What do they do?

Speaker 1

There's a massive difference between deception and discretion. Deception is intentionally trying to keep a secret, which has no place in marriage.

Discretion, on the other hand, says, "I'll tell you anything that you want to know." However, it also emphasizes the importance of protecting both partners from sharing details that might lead to regret. You have a right to know these details if you want them, but let's be wise about this.

I don't necessarily want to relive and dig up all of the details that I've found healing and forgiveness from, even though you have a right to them. I also don't want to put those thoughts into your mind.

Speaker 2

It's a good way to say it.

Speaker 1

But again, you have a right. So it's not. I'm preventing you from nothing. You have full access to everything.

But sometimes the discretion part saying, yeah, I have full access, but. But there are certain details I need, and then there are other details that would only hurt me to have. It wouldn't help us grow closer. It would be an unnecessary, hurtful detail.

And you two together have to work through maybe what that looks like.

Speaker 4

Right. And I would say the willingness has to be there to give as many details as your spouse wants. So it's up to, like, you need to ask your spouse, how detailed do you want me to be? Because if you decide for them, they feel like you're holding something back.

And so that's the key, because it could be nothing. Maybe you're not even holding anything, but they're gonna assume the worst. So just asking them and being willing to share to the detail they would like, and it might be that you start sharing some details, and they're like, wait a minute, I don't want that picture.

Just kind of give me the main facts here, and then we can do our best to move on from that.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 3

What if it's sexual abuse?

Speaker 1

I think you have to share it for your own healing. First off, the many friends we've had who've confided in us, you know, sexual abuse. There were two girls that used to babysit for us. And I'll share their story because they've shared it publicly at this point. Precious girls, they all, through their teenage years, were babysitting for us, really part of our family, you know, one we would even like, sometimes take on trips with us to, like, watch our kids.

You know, they came to us in early adulthood and said, listen, this story's going to come out. And we wanted you guys to know from us first. But basically, their stepfather, through their entire adolescence, had been abusing them in the worst kind of ways. And then even making them accessible to...

Speaker 2

Some of his friends.

Speaker 1

I mean, in just a grotesque, unimaginable way. And all this had come out, and there was now, like, trial. And several of these men are in prison where they belong. But they were living with this, doing life with us and with the church.

And we had no idea and how heartbreaking it was. Her mother had no idea. And when all this came out, it was so heartbreaking to think, man, we could have done more to help protect them.

But abusers try to get into the minds of those they're abusing and say, you can't tell anybody, and you're damaged.

Speaker 4

Now, I think that's a common try.

Speaker 1

To attach shame to it or manipulate it. Manipulation. And I'm telling you, you start taking your power back when you tell somebody. And it took one of these girls telling at the time her boyfriend, who's now her husband, and that's what got.

Speaker 4

Her to finally tell her mother.

Speaker 1

And he said. And he helped. He walked along with her and said, "I'm going to be with you this whole time, but we got to tell the story. You got to tell your mom, you've got to tell, and you got to talk to somebody. And if you're married, you gotta start with your spouse. There can't be any secrets."

You know, like, for me, we had to have some awkward conversations. My first sexual experience was when I was five with a cousin of mine who was the same age. It was initiated by her. Now, looking back, I realize almost certainly she was being abused and acting out what was happening to her. And so it created all this confusion in me and then in us.

Tragically, she— not to make this really dark, but this is just part of my story—she and her father were killed in a drowning accident several years later, which created so much more confusion in me because now I had this bond, this unnatural bond with this person, and I didn't know how to process any of it.

I didn't realize until much later how profound that whole experience was and how confusing it was, along with the shame that I had attached to all of that, which I was way too young to process and never really talked about how that played out. I think it was even maybe part of leading me into pornography and some of those other things. Not to make excuses for any of it, but just talking about it was so uncomfortable, even like something that was so far in the distant past; it felt like a different lifetime ago.

Speaker 4

And it was many years. We were many years married until he told me about that. And, I mean, I would have. I didn't have any idea I knew about her passing away with her father and all that and just how heartbreaking that was.

And I think there just came a time where you felt like, I need to talk about this. And I remember you saying later on, it's like a weight. You didn't realize the weight you were carrying. You don't know, because you get used to it. It feels normal. Right.

Speaker 2

It's like wearing a coat that you've been wearing your whole life.

Speaker 4

Exactly. Exactly. And even though there wasn't something that happened where he's like, I need to tell Ashley. Cause this is the thing with sexual abuse. You didn't do anything wrong. I mean, and I think sometimes people think, what did I do to have this happen? And it's like, no, no, this is something horrible that happened to you. And God wants you to find healing. And it breaks his heart.

Right. And, you know, Dave told me later after telling me, it was like a weight lifted. But then it actually brought us even closer together. Cause it gives me. Like you said, I know you. We're sharing that burden. But I know more. I know him more of what. And he's gonna know more about what I've gone through.

And it gives. It kind of opens that door more and more. The more that we're willing to share these things with each other and have that vulnerability.

Speaker 2

Well, as I watched, even in this small group, there was a woman sharing her story. She's got four kids and shared this story of a horrible thing that happened back in college, where there was trauma for her.

At the end, after she had confessed it, we all gathered around her, laid hands on her, and prayed for her. You could just see this: this is the community of God that He has put us around, where we can help. As we bring it into the light, God just heals us.

And you're right, Ashley. There's a weight that's lifted that you can't even explain. Like, wow, this is what freedom feels like. I've allowed people to see the pain that I've gone through, my scars, and they still love me.

Speaker 4

Yeah, right?

Speaker 1

That's so beautiful.

Speaker 3

Yeah. I know that. For me, when Ann shared her abuse story, I felt so privileged. It's like, this is something really hard to share with anybody. Now she's sharing it with her husband.

And again, at first I was like, oh, it's no big deal. I was so naive. And then I realized through the journey is like, I get to be her partner. I get to be part of God using me to be part of her healing.

Speaker 2

And you just.

Speaker 3

And that's what happens in a marriage.

Speaker 2

Was like the most intimate thing you could have done is praying for that.

Speaker 3

Yeah. I'm hoping people listen to this episode, say, okay, today's the day. I'm not gonna carry this anymore. I've gotta tell my spouse, maybe some women, some men, and start the journey. And I would encourage you do it.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Lay that baggage down. You know, you're never meant to carry. Jesus wants to free you of that. And man, the freedom of just being able to let go of that. So amazing.

Speaker 3

And let me just add. Go to familylifetoday.com you can get a copy of their free nine days to great Sex.

Speaker 1

That's right.

Speaker 3

Go to our show notes. There'll be a link there. You know, we couldn't get into some things we really like to get into in the back of your book. Actually, it's all through your book. You guys are naked and unashamed. That's why it's called Naked Marriage.

So we're gonna do a special podcast version, unfiltered. Unfiltered with David Ashley Willis. That's what that would get people interested.

If you want to hear that episode—and I know you're like, you're going, "I'm not missing that one"—that's at familylifetoday.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. It'll be on there. Family Life Today with Dave and Ashley Willis Unfiltered.

Speaker 2

As we're talking about this, you may be wondering if we have anything else or any other ways we can help you.

You can go to familylife.com marriage help, help. And we have some of our best resources there for you.

And it's free that you can get some answers.

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Family Life Today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.