FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

Any addiction is difficult to break free from. And I just found myself there. Even though I hated myself for doing it or for being tempted, there were still one or two relapses which made me hate myself even more and then hit the reset button, of course, on the trust process.

But over time, I was able to get free once and for all.

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Speaker 3

And I'm Ann Wilson. And you can find us atfamilylife today.com. this is Family Life Today.

Speaker 2

Well, I don't say this every time we have a guest in the studio. You know what I'm going to say? I love these guys.

Speaker 3

You love. We both love these guys.

Speaker 2

I mean, I hope other, other guests don't hear us thinking that we're not saying we love them. We love everybody that comes in here.

Speaker 3

We can sit and talk to you both for.

Speaker 1

Yeah, same with us.

Speaker 4

Same. We feel exactly the same.

Speaker 1

Not to throw the other guests under the bus, but before we started, they did tell us by far, you are not only our favorite guest, you're the only guest that we like.

Speaker 4

No, they did.

Speaker 1

They did. I heard.

Speaker 2

I promise it's because your name is identical. Dave and Ashley Willis are with us today with Dave and Ann Wilson.

Speaker 1

Not confusing at all. Not at all.

Speaker 3

All the same initials.

Speaker 4

Yep.

Speaker 2

Now what are your kids doing right now? Cause the last time you were here, your four boys were a little younger.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 2

So tell our listeners what all you do. I mean, you do like 18,000 things and you have four boys.

Speaker 1

She does 18,000 things.

Speaker 4

I don't know about that.

Speaker 1

Yeah, she's the most high achieving person I know. I don't see how she does it all, but she has her own counseling coaching practice where she's.

Speaker 2

That's sort of new, right?

Speaker 4

It is new, yes. It's new this year. And so, yeah, I do mental health and marriage coaching and counseling at our local church as well. And I love it. So that keeps me, me busy during the day.

Speaker 2

And this is sort of an intervention right now, right? That's why you're here.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

To counsel and coach us.

Speaker 1

She said I need help today.

Speaker 2

I bet she did.

Speaker 4

No, I love doing that. And then together, you know, we do marriage ministry and write resources and sticks around different places.

Speaker 2

Have you done marriage ministry? Because here's my thought. I don't know if you know Crystal Payne.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 2

Yeah, she's called the mom of Facebook or something. She was on Facebook before Facebook was even known. I feel like you guys were as well. You were on Facebook at the very, very beginning.

Speaker 1

I was in Mark Zuckerberg's dorm room saying, hey, let's start this thing. No, we weren't that. I wish.

Speaker 2

No, I mean, in a good way. You were one of the first people that I ever saw on Facebook that saw this medium as a way to impact and help people.

Speaker 1

Well, thank you. Yeah, thank you. We kind of got started on Facebook. You know, we've branched off from there and do podcasts and other things now. But we started there because back then it's the only thing we could do that we could afford.

Speaker 2

Right.

Speaker 1

We didn't know, like, podcasts weren't really a thing yet. We didn't have any money. And so we're like, what could we do for free? Let's start a Facebook page. And that was our budget. Free.

And we started a Facebook page, just called it Marriage because we couldn't think of a more creative title. We're like, well, let's just make it clear what it's about. And slowly it started to grow and it became really a large audience of people from all over the world that just wanted marriage encouragement and help.

And God used that as some kind of on-the-job training for us as people would message us, asking for advice, prayer requests, and we got to see what folks were really dealing with. And yeah, God just grew a passion in us to help married couples inside and outside the church, but to do it all with the Christian message, because God's the only way that we're going to have good marriages. We can't do it without him.

And we've loved getting to do it together. We've loved how it's impacted our own marriage. We've loved the partners we've gotten to meet along the way, like you two. And yeah, it's been fun. So we've been doing marriage ministry in one form or another, I guess about 12 years.

Speaker 3

What about your podcast?

Speaker 4

Yes, that was Naked Marriage podcast. We did for about six years, right, sweetie?

Speaker 1

Yeah. And then we've. We've done some other podcasts as well.

Speaker 4

Yes. We just finished our first season of the Marriage on the Line podcast, which is a call-in podcast.

We really love the podcast forum, as you guys well know. It's a great way to get to know people and share stories and good content.

It's been a journey, and we love that we get to do it together.

Speaker 2

One of my questions is, you said it first started being called marriage. Now you're known as Naked Marriage.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

How did we get from marriage to naked marriage? And what does that mean? Because it's obviously a provocative title. That's not always what you think. It doesn't just mean take your clothes off.

Speaker 4

Right.

Speaker 1

But it doesn't. Yeah, we're not nudists. If you're listening and not watching this, we are all fully clothed right now.

But when you look at that first picture of marriage in the Bible, the very first picture, God's perfect plan for marriage, it says the man and his wife were naked and unashamed. Naked and unashamed, meaning not only were they not wearing clothes, there was the physical intimacy, but there was also emotional intimacy. Nakedness is saying, I've got nothing to hide from you. You've got nothing to hide from me. I see your scars, you see mine. We accept each other as we are. There's nothing hidden between us.

And how God still desires that level of intimacy for every married couple, even though our sin nature wants us to hide and wants us to pull back. The naked marriage was born out of that one because it is fun and provocative and people remember it. And so there's a little bit of, I guess, just kind of a marketing element.

But more than that, it's the spiritual part. It's like, no. God created marriage to be a naked marriage where there's nothing between you, nothing holding you back. And so that's been kind of the core of our message from the start.

Speaker 3

Ashley, have you guys seen that? That is something that couples struggle with?

Speaker 4

Absolutely, yes. I think we live in a world that really shies away from trusting anyone. I think trust is essential, but everybody's skeptical. We hear all these horror stories on true crime podcasts, which I'm a fan of, too, but they're the most popular. It kind of breeds this skepticism and makes you feel like you really never know anybody.

As a result, you can't really fully be vulnerable, even with your own spouse, because you feel the need to have something kind of up your sleeve just in case things fall apart. There's this expectation that they will, because you don't really know them, and you can't really trust them.

I think we've seen, in current society, more people not fully engaging with their spouse, not fully trusting them, and not going all in. When you don't fully go all in, you can't really experience that naked marriage.

Speaker 3

And I don't know about you guys, but we have seen, too, that people have a lot more secrets.

It feels like today, maybe it's because of social media, because of pornography, but there's so much more shame in marriages.

We're afraid to share who we really are or what we've done.

Speaker 2

You guys seeing that?

Speaker 4

Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah, there's a lot. And secrets are heavy. You know, they weigh people down. We're not meant to carry them, especially in marriage.

And so helping people find the courage to confess first to God, who already knows by the way, he sees he knows what's going on, but to say it out loud to him, and then we confess. The Bible says in the book of James, confess to one another for healing. So we confess to God for forgiveness. But the healing part can only happen when we bring our secrets out to people in relationships, and that starts in marriage.

For those of us who are married, the marriage relationship, by God's design, is a place where there should be no secrets between a husband and a wife. And once it becomes a safe place for both of you to be able to express all your hurts, all your hangups, all your fears, all your secrets, man, the intimacy that you can experience is just incredible.

Speaker 2

Okay, let's get real. You got any secrets? No, I'm kidding. But in your marriage, though, you're the naked married couple.

Have you had to walk through a season? Or maybe it was 20 years ago, maybe it was recently, where, yeah, I'm carrying a secret. I'm scared, because that's the thing. We're scared to death to ever let anybody know, even our spouse.

So how have you navigated that in your own marriage? I'm like, I'm gonna go there. Let's talk.

Speaker 4

Yeah, let's do it.

Speaker 1

Let's do it.

Speaker 4

We've had multiple times, obviously, being married. We've been married 23 years. We've had multiple times where we've had to do that. And we've gotten much better at it as time has gone on, and just being vulnerable, really all the time and coming out with it.

But I would say for me, personally, pretty early on in our marriage, I started having a really bad bout with anxiety attacks and even depression, too. And I didn't understand what I was really dealing with at the time, because now that I've done all this work and now that I do this also for a living, I didn't realize, like, I come from an environment. I have a wonderful family, and I'm so grateful for them.

But really, a lot of the women in my family had dealt with anxiety and depression, and it was seen as normal. It was kind of like, if you're not worrying about it, do you even care?

Speaker 3

And it probably wasn't talked about as much back then.

Speaker 4

Oh, no, no, you don't. And it was kind of. Yeah, it was like, you keep that a secret, you deal with it. Certainly don't talk about it with anybody. Cause it's almost like there's shame on it, you know? And I'm not blaming my family, but that's just kind of. I understood it because that's what I was around.

I remember, too, as a Christian woman, when I started having doubts and kind of scary thoughts in my mind, and just horrible sadness and really bad, debilitating anxiety attacks, usually in the middle of the night. I really thought, oh, I must have done something terribly wrong, or there's something terribly wrong with me. I'm not really being a good Christian woman. Something's wrong. I'm not believing God enough. I'm not trying enough. I really felt just riddled with accusations, really, from the enemy.

And, you know, one thing in particular. I remember one night, I was literally getting physically ill from the anxiety inside my body. And this happened. It was happening more and more frequently. And it would be in the middle of the night. And let me just say as a side note, Dave is like a very sound sleeper, and I'm so glad. So, like, he doesn't know this is all going on.

Speaker 3

He had no idea.

Speaker 4

He had no idea.

Speaker 3

You're like, tormented.

Speaker 4

I'm totally. That's a great word for it. I was tormented.

Speaker 2

I mean, did he know you were struggling with anxiety?

Speaker 4

No, I didn't even know that. I locked it down. Like, I was like, put on this.

Speaker 2

World, I love her.

Speaker 1

I don't pick up up on subtle cues or even very obvious cues. Like you have to wear a sign that says, I'm feeling anxious right now.

Speaker 3

But it's so sad that you were carrying that all by yourself.

Speaker 2

Were you afraid to tell Dave?

Speaker 4

I was so afraid, really, because I was. Honestly, I was afraid of myself. Like, I got to a point where I couldn't even trust my own decision making. And I'd wake up, I'd go to work, I'd put on a smile. Like no one in my life knew. No one. There was not one person I talked to about it. And I just kept on trying to will myself out of it, you know?

And I remember that one night in particular, I had just gotten kind of sick to my stomach. And I'm in the bathroom and I'm a mess, and I'm crying, and I'm just riddled with all these worries. And I was just praying like, "Lord, help me." Like, just literally just like, "Lord, help me."

And it was like that still, small voice. It wasn't audible, but just that still, small voice of the Holy Spirit really convicted me and was like, "I've given you Dave as a helper. You need to go and tell your husband. That's one of the steps you need to take. Go and tell your husband."

You know, I just really thought that, you know. And I remember. I think I had to wait another day, and it happened another night. And I guess God just had, you know, thank God he's patient with us and now.

Speaker 2

Why didn't you tell him?

Speaker 4

I just was scared. I really. There was. One of the lies I was believing was, you know, he just needs to leave you. You need to give him permission to leave you because you're not the woman he married. And if he knew he couldn't take it, he couldn't handle it, he'd want to leave anyway. So that's how riddled I was with this.

And I just finally. It was like multiple nights of just feeling that, like, you need to tell Dave. And I finally, like, literally three in the morning, he is dead asleep. I wake him up, and I am a mess, you know. And I mean, literally, I'm shaking him. I'm like, are you up? And he's just totally over there snoring or whatever.

And finally, he wakes up and he's disoriented, and I just start just letting it all out. I'm just like, I feel convicted. I need to tell you what's really been going on with me. I've been having these anxiety attacks. I've been feeling sick, and I can't believe these scary thoughts I have, and I'm just not. And you should probably leave me. And, you know, I'm just so sorry that this is who I am now. Like, very much taking on that identity, like, anxiety was my identity.

Speaker 2

This is who I am.

Speaker 4

This is who I am. And I know you won't love this. You couldn't possibly love this, because I don't love it, you know? And he just looked me in the eyes, and that was the first step that really helped me, was him not looking away, you know, and then he just listened intently. And when I finally took a breath and gave him a moment to speak, he just was like, "I'm so sorry. I'm just so sorry you're going through this. And I had no idea. And I'm so glad you told me. And I just want you to know I'm not going anywhere. Like, I'm not going anywhere and this isn't who you are. I don't pretend to understand all this, but I know that we're going to get through this because we have each other, but most of all because God will help us get through this."

And it was like really just exactly what I needed to hear because I felt like I can't bear this burden on my own, right? In the days and weeks and months to come, Dave just walked alongside me with this. He was like, "Let's get you a counselor." And he was like, "I don't care how much it costs." And he's like, "Here's this book that can help you and let me pray with you." You know, maybe there's this. Like, I remember during that time, sometimes if I was feeling it in the middle of the night, sometimes I would watch programs that had encouraging messages, like Christian television, you know, where I would hear testimonies and I would just try to fill my mind with the things of God and not focus on this anxiety and really try to understand my anxiety.

Little by little, over time, and it took time, it wasn't a poof, it's gone. But little by little it lifted. It was a very gradual lifting. But one day, I remember I didn't have that sinking, sick feeling today. Like I had one day without that sinking, sick feeling. And he celebrated with me and it felt like freedom, probably. Yeah, the freedom. Mine was a four-year battle. It was a long journey. I know there's other people, it's much longer. But that was a secret.

Cause I think sometimes we keep secrets that aren't necessarily like sin, but just struggles that we're afraid our spouse can't deal with. And I guess in that season I just learned, man, one of the greatest gifts we have in marriage is to be burden bearers together and to have each other's back and to be in each other's corner. And Dave was certainly that for me. And I'm just so grateful.

Speaker 2

I mean, what do you say? I mean, it's a beautiful story. Dave, you're like husband of the devil.

Speaker 1

No, she's not remembering it completely correctly. I was so ill equipped to know how to help. So I didn't say wise things, really. I mean, she's giving me a lot of credit there.

Speaker 3

But you looked her in the eye.

Speaker 1

I looked her in the eye.

Speaker 4

He looked me. Yeah, he didn't look Away.

Speaker 1

That's what I try to tell husbands and just people in general in marriage. It's like, you don't always have to have the answer.

You just have to be there, be present, let your spouse know, we're gonna figure this out together.

And I'm not going anywhere.

Speaker 2

And you didn't try and fix it.

Speaker 1

I didn't try to fix it because I didn't know how to fix it. I was like, I'm not gonna try to fix this, but we're gonna figure this out together, and God's gonna help.

And I was just there, just. The ministry of presence sometimes is what your spouse needs. Sometimes your spouse just needs a hug more than your advice.

Speaker 3

Let me ask you this, because this feels beautiful in terms of, like, when you expose, like, I'm feeling these things about myself.

And your spouse can say, no, that's not who you are.

But then when you have a spouse reveal secrets of, let's say, pornography.

Speaker 1

Sure. Which I had.

Speaker 3

And so let's go. You talk about that pretty. I feel like you guys are more real than even we are, and we feel like we will go there. But you are incredibly honest and forthcoming in all the things you've been through.

So this one to me, because Dave had this secret too, and when he exposed it, I was not like, let me look you in the eyes and tell you I'm here. I was mad and I felt like, I don't know if I want it. Like, this is so hard.

Let's go there with those spouses.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

I mean, I'd love to hear your journey, because when that happened, it was first couple years of our marriage. We're in our 45th, so a long time ago. But she got so angry, it made me think, I'll never tell her again.

Speaker 3

Because it just stirred up the whole thing.

Speaker 2

If I struggle again, I'm just going to keep it a secret because this is hurt that's killing her. And again, that changed over time. But that was their initial response. It made me.

Speaker 1

Which is an understandable response to that kind of stand and betrayal.

Speaker 4

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1

And we talk a lot about pornography. Not because it's a comfortable topic, but because it is everywhere and people aren't talking about it. The stats, even within the church, aren't much different than the stats outside the church. The majority of men in America right now have a current porn habit. Not just part of the past testimony.

Even within the church, more than half have a current habit. It's not just part of your past testimony; it's something that you do regularly. You've maybe bought into that cultural lie that it's not a sin, it's no big deal. It's just entertainment. It's not hurting anybody. And of course, those are all lies.

We could give you plenty of Bible verses and examples. In fact, we do in the free ebook that's available with this broadcast.

Speaker 2

Yeah, there is a free e book about this topic called Nine Days to Great Sex.

Speaker 1

That's right. Yeah.

Speaker 2

That can happen in nine days.

Speaker 3

And you guys, it's free.

Speaker 2

Go to our show notes. There'll be a link there.

Speaker 1

That's right. We believe in this message so much, and we're thrilled to be able to offer it for free because we want there not to be any hindrance in people getting it. But we talk in that book a lot about our testimony as it relates to pornography, because this is, I'm convinced, the issue, the main issue that is keeping people right now in the world from experiencing the fullness of God's plan for their life, for their marriage. It is the glass ceiling that's holding you back from breaking through to that next level of intimacy and connection. It's weighing you down.

And I know what that feels like because I was there. I was exposed to it, born as an adolescent. And those images just sort of locked themselves in my mind. When you're young, it's like there's wet cement in your mind and heart. The images and experiences you have in those formative years leave impressions that harden over time. It's hard to break free from those impressions, even if they're wrong.

My early impressions about sex weren't healthy. They were this very toxic counterfeit that the world puts out. I tried to break free from it, but I didn't do it God's way. I didn't break free from it through confessing it to people, through getting accountability, or any of those things. I tried to break free from it just by willpower, which almost never works in any part of life.

So early in our relationship, in the dating phase, I didn't tell Ashley that this had been a struggle, that this had been kind of like an on-again, off-again struggle. I thought, well, I can overcome this on my own. She doesn't need to know. I don't want her to know that I struggled with this.

Speaker 2

That is so typical, by the way. Yeah. So many Christian couples do the same thing.

Speaker 3

And I think a lot of times the person thinks, when I get married, I won't have to struggle.

Speaker 1

Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 4

That's why one of the big lies.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Satan has so many very effective lies related to porn. You know, one on one extreme is that it's not a sin, it's no big deal, keep doing it. The other extreme is, this is unforgivable. You're gonna be riddled with shame your whole life. No one will ever love you.

And then the one you just mentioned, Ann. Well, once I'm married, I won't be tempted because I'm gonna have.

Speaker 4

I'll never have a temptation again.

Speaker 1

And I believe that because I married the woman in my dreams. And I thought, all right, well, now there's no temptation. But what pornography does is it doesn't train your mind or your body ever, ever to be fulfilled in a healthy, monogamous marriage. It warps your mind to always need some stimulus. That's different. I mean, it's self-sabotaging in every way.

So about a year into our marriage, I just found myself tempted again. Out of nowhere. The temptation took me by surprise. I fell back into that same pit of sin. Now I was riddled with guilt because I knew Jesus had said, hey, to look with lust is to commit adultery in your heart.

Now, as a married man, I'm like, well, this is basically an act of adultery. I don't know what to do with this. I can't confess and break the heart of my wife, who I love so much. And she ended up finding on our old clunky computer. This was long before the days of smartphones and tablets and all that. But on our big desktop computer, where I'd been looking, and I wasn't looking.

Speaker 4

For it, just so you know, I had no inkling.

Speaker 3

So you weren't looking at the history or anything?

Speaker 4

I had no idea. I was in school at the time and just trying to get on a website. And I think I had lost track of the website and went, that's why I went to the history. Not at all. I mean, it was nowhere on my radar. Like, it just was nowhere.

I mean, literally my first thought, just to show you how much it was not on my radar, I first couldn't understand what I was looking at. Like, just the names of these sites, you know? And then, is that what I think it is? Is that pornography? I'm like, oh, it is.

And then I thought it wasn't Dave. I thought, who broke into our house and went into our basement and got in our clunky computer and looked at porn?

Speaker 3

Clearly he thought it.

Speaker 4

I really thought so.

Speaker 3

Did you confront him or say anything?

Speaker 4

Porn was Nowhere on my radar. But I had sensed for a little bit of time that there was something he wasn't telling me.

Speaker 3

That's what. I sensed it, too. You can feel it.

Speaker 4

You can feel it. It was a distance between us. And one thing I used to always say to Dave in our dating days, engagement days, and early marriage days is, I just love your honest eyes. And it was like the honest eyes weren't there. And so I knew something. There was something up. And he'd be like, I'm fine. I'm fine. You know? Cause I would say, what's going on? You know?

I mean, I realized real quick, I'm like, oh, this is it. This is the thing. I was upset. I mean, I was so angry, too. And I was sad, and I was, like, just shocked and disgusted and all the things, you know, a lot of different feelings. And so I had to hear it from him.

So I called him at work, and literally, he answered the phone. And all I said was, do you have something you need to tell me? And I said it just like that. And there was a long pause.

Speaker 3

Did you know she knew?

Speaker 4

Yeah, I did.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So I just.

And, guys, if you're listening, if your wife ever says, "Do you have something you need to tell me?" Just. Just go back as early as you can remember and just start confessing.

Like in second grade, I stole the candy bar. In third grade, like, she already knows. So I was. I said, "You found it."

Speaker 4

Yeah, you found it.

Speaker 1

And I said, I'm so sorry. And it was the worst and the best day. I wish I'd had the courage to confess before being caught, but I'm still glad that it was out, because now, once something's in light, however it got there, it immediately has less power over you than it did when it was in the darkness. And so we started the messy process of working through that and trying to get healthy.

And it was a messy process because by that point, I do feel like that in my mind, it was an addictive behavior by that point. And any addiction is difficult to break free from. And I just found myself there. Even though I hated myself for doing it or for being tempted, there were still one or two relapses, which made me hate myself even more, and then hit the reset button, of course, on the trust process. But over time, I was able to get free once and for all.

Ashley was amazing in that, even though she was wounded, even though rightly so, she was angry and demanded that there should be accountability, which every marriage needs. But she was so full of grace, too. And I'm so thankful for that. And so we walked through that together. Thankfully, it's been many years I've been on the other side.

But if you're listening to this and you're caught up in it right now, and you feel like, I just don't think I can break free, listen, I know what that feels like. I remember what that feels like. That this is just who I am. I'm stuck with this forever. You're not stuck. There is help, there's hope. I believe it's not even an accident that you're listening to this right now. God wants to remind you that he has the power through you to do anything.

We can do all things through Christ. We can't do all things just in our own strength, but through Christ. Once you invite him into the picture and say, "Lord, give me the strength," and we do what we're able to do to get the accountability, to confess, to get filtering software on our devices, to do those things that just are going to help keep us on the right path.

I promise, you can get free. And once you start living a naked marriage without secrets, the freedom, man, you just never want to go back. It's like you can breathe, and that's what God wants for you. He wants freedom for you.

Speaker 3

And I'm thinking of the listeners that have secrets, that have things that they've never confessed.

And I love the words bringing it into the light, because that's where we find that freedom in Christ.

He's already given us grace. He's already forgiven us.

But to bring it to each other, that's when intimacy, true intimacy, begins.

Speaker 2

Well, like, I knew this was gonna happen. We ran out of time and we have a lot more to talk about.

No, you know something I wanna talk about tomorrow. I want to ask Ashley and Ann, when you're the wife and this confession happens in your marriage, how to respond.

We've heard Dave's story, which is awesome, and men need to do what Dave just said, but we don't have time to hear it now.

So I'm just going to tell our listeners, our watchers go to familylifetoday.com; you can get a copy of your book, Nine Days to Great Sex.

Speaker 1

Yes. Totally free. It's your excuses and it's, you can have it.

Speaker 2

And this is all in there. And more. Much, much more.

Speaker 3

So much good stuff.

Speaker 2

In fact, we're going to talk about that tomorrow.

But I want you to coach women if this happens in their marriage.

And it could go the other way when you're this innocent or whatever, not struggling with this spouse.

How do you love? How do you forgive? How do you give grace?

That's tomorrow.

Speaker 3

And if you need more, we've put together some really of our best material in one place. It's free. And you can go to familylife.com marriage help and check it out because we'll probably have something there that will meet your needs.

Speaker 2

Family Life today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.