Family Talk

Dr. James Dobson: Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute, supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.

Roger Marsh: Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh and today we have an important topic to discuss on the program. This is one that if you have young children who are listening along with or watching along with on our YouTube channel, I encourage you to pause for just a moment and use parental discretion because this is a topic that is sensitive, but it's one that is becoming more of a concern even in the church. And the topic is of parents grieving the loss of a child to suicide.

It's a very very sensitive matter, of course, and I please know that if this is something that is impacted your family here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, our our thoughts and prayers are with you. And and perhaps if you know someone who has gone through this situation, we encourage you to listen to what you're about to hear on today's program because we have someone who has become sort of an unwilling expert in this whole area. Jackie Ann Baker is my guest. Nobody wants to be knowledgeable in this area. We haven't Let's just face it.

There are so many ministries that start. And Jackie, welcome to Dr. James Dobson Family Talk. It's good to have you on the program today.

Jackie Ann Baker: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah.

Roger Marsh: And and I know that you don't want to be talking about this. I mean, quite frankly, no no parent brings a child into the world and then says, boy, what am I going to do with? It's the same way with marriages that end in divorce or whatever. I mean, that's not God's plan A. But Jackie has written a book called Messy Morning, and that's m o u r n i n g, Hope for Mothers Grieving the Loss of a Child by Suicide. It's a faith-forward companion that offers hope and practical support to mothers. And this is something that like I said, Jackie wishes she didn't have to write.

But Jackie, let's talk about your family before we get into the reason for the book first and foremost. I mean, you basically had the typical all-American family, mom, dad, son, daughter. I mean, faith in Christ. I mean, things were going very very well for you. Talk about how you and your husband met and how that family came together.

Jackie Ann Baker: Oh, yeah. So we met actually we met through friends from our church. I was a Navy nurse. My husband was a Navy physician. And people people thought the Navy nurse would meet the Navy doctor, and I didn't want to meet him because as a Navy nurse, I worked with a lot of doctors. And so I avoided him for about 3 months. And and then we we met. And I was like, oh, he's not bad, you know. And so we corresponded. He was going out to see. He was doing his they call them WestPacs. We were We met in Long Beach, California, at our church there.

And so he was going WestPacs for 6 months. So he was the junior medical officer on the ship. And he asked if he could write me. And I always love to tell people it was these thin pieces of paper, you know, they cut from a tree, use a pen, and have an envelope because kids don't know what those are. And so we started like we were like pen pals. But

Roger Marsh: Oh, that's sweet.

Jackie Ann Baker: So we wrote for 6 months. And he told people He had asked for my picture. And he told people we were going to get married. And even though we hadn't been dating at the time, so but he was telling everybody he was going to marry me. And then he came home after 6 months. And we had a we he came back. It was March of 1990. And then the Persian Gulf War broke out. And so by this time, I had made a decision to already leave the military because I didn't want to be a I didn't want to be a mom in the military.

I wanted to be able to stay home with my kids. And at that time, the Navy was not very supportive of that. And so so I had gotten out before we had made a decision to get married. And then 2 weeks after we were married, he shipped off to the Persian Gulf War. And so we spent the first 6 months writing letters again and wondering, you know, we didn't know how long it was going to be. Fortunately, he was only gone, you know, 5 and 1/2 months at that time. And then he came back. So we always said we had to learn how to date by you know, we did premarital counseling by mail, you know.

And so yeah, so that's how we met. And so that's We're coming on 36 years of marriage. Yeah. And so the Lord brought us to the Pacific Northwest where he did his residency. And then that's when we had our first son Sebastian. He was born in 1994 in April. And then our daughter Isabelle joined him like 2 years later in in in August of '96. Yeah, so two kids. And I was a said nurse, but I stayed home with my kids until about they were in eighth grade. And then I was able to be the school nurse at that their school.

So that was a lot of fun.

Roger Marsh: Wonderful. Right. And then And because you're a glutton for punishment, you went back and finished the doctorate nurse practitioner.

Jackie Ann Baker: I did. After my youngest graduated from high school, I was like, okay, Lord. I actually I remember I asked the Lord. I'm like, well, what should I do something else or whatever? And I I literally heard nurse practitioner. And I was like looking around like, you're kidding, right? I'm in my 50s. And so I went to U Dub. It was a Oh, that I that's another story about how God got me into the University of Washington. So I got into U Dub, did my doctorate there. Yeah, as a pediatric nurse. Yeah, so 10 years now for doing that.

Yeah.

Roger Marsh: So everything what I'm hearing, Jackie, is that everything in your world you could expect it to just be going so swimmingly. I mean, you and your husband meet. You have this wonderful courtship. You get married. You have a son in '94. You have another daughter comes along a couple of years later. You're listening to James Dobson on the radio and reading his books. And everything is going just perfectly. And I don't mean to make light of that. But what what were the first signs that there was a situation with Sebastian where you 're thinking, okay, no parent wakes up in the morning and says, you know, I wonder if this is the day.

Jackie Ann Baker: Yeah.

Roger Marsh: And yet even even in the best homes, I think of Rick and Kay Warren. I mean, that there are there are there are so many prominent people that we all could mention who have wrestled with this. What were the some of the early signs that Sebastian might be leaning in this direction?

Jackie Ann Baker: Well, you know, it's interesting because he he was always a very precocious child. And we just you know, he was smarter beyond his own, you know, life. I I was just amazed at the things that he would come up with when he was a young child. And he was a a national chess champion. He had like the golden glove, you know. Anything he touched, he did well at. It It came easy to him. Always did well in school. I mean, I was had to tell him they go, why don't I have to tell them the why?

This is the answer. But they want to know how to do it. Like I don't need to tell. I just know you know, so we always argue about that. But he had Yeah, he was a national chess champion like when he was nine. And then in and then in eighth grade again. So just his little brain that I was always trying to keep him busy. I thought if I didn't keep him busy, he was going to keep me busy, you know. So that was I thought it was one of my mantras I tell patients, you know, you got to keep your boys busy because they're boys, right?

And so boys are active and they climb things and they And so I allowed him to be, you know, let him do all these fun things. But it was about middle school. You know, very typical. You know, chess wasn't cool anymore. So he stopped. I'm like, that's fine. I was like, darn, there goes those scholarships I thought about, you know.

Roger Marsh: Yeah. Yeah.

Jackie Ann Baker: It's not about me.

Roger Marsh: Good at something.

Jackie Ann Baker: Right. Yeah, but it wasn't cool anymore. And he was a soccer player and was a keeper, played a club, you know, ball, got accepted to a D 2 school in Idaho to play Division 2 soccer. And so you know, he was struggling. And we we always sent our kids to if they wanted to see a counselor, you know, to talk about normal things and you know, because I'm like, it's hard being in middle school. It's hard being in high school, you know. And so we tried to encourage all that. And but then when he left for college, we he came back and he just said, I'm not going back anymore.

And we he wouldn't tell us why. You know, at this time he was 18, you know. And we're trying to treat him as an adult. And he So he what I found out is that, you know, he just got involved with not the right people. And it was a Christian school, but that doesn't guarantee a lot of, you know, you know, who you hang out with. And and the soccer team at that time wasn't you know, I I just don't think they were cared for. They It changed afterwards. I had other friends whose sons went and they had a great spiritual emphasis and everything.

But I don't know if he just got lost in the shuffle or whatever. And he was pretty much kept to himself a lot of times, too. So when he came home, when we told him you got to get a job, get to work, you know, why you figure out what's going on. And it was that time we noticed more manicky phases, depression. He had gotten himself I think he got himself diagnosed with ADHD so he could get medication. And he was using overusing stimulants. And then marijuana became legal in Washington State, which I I think contributed greatly to you know, just changing the mechanisms in his brain because they you can find that the research shows that you know, early use of marijuana, especially in young boys, can change the wiring in the brain and especially excessive use.

And he was using all the time. And by this time, then he was stealing from us and just making really you know, making really poor choices. And so you know, we we sought help in all the places. We tried to do all the things. And then we we had friends that were going to take him, family members. And even there he was stealing from them and just making poor choices. And then it got to the point where they said, well, I think we're going to have to arrest him. And I'm like, well, you have to do what you need to do if he's you know, at this time he was like 20, you know.

And so so they arrested him. He got arrested. And he was in New Mexico at the time. And then so he was facing jail time or rehab. And so we you know, we encouraged rehab. And so he went with Team Challenge, which was a great place for him. I

Roger Marsh: Excellent program.

Jackie Ann Baker: I I really loved what they did with for him. And it was there that he had his first suicide attempt. He just walked off the campus. And he was missing for 24 hours. And I just remember that was one of the longest 24 hours of my life not knowing where he was. And you know, just get praying to the Lord, you know, that you know, all you can do is pray because you can't do anything. And just waiting because I'm like, do we fly out? Do we not? And then they found him. And he was taken to a hospital where he was admitted to a psychiatric hospital and then diagnosed with bipolar and you know, Chris suicidal ideation.

And so we started him on medications. But the in New Mexico where or he was in Arizona at that time, excuse me. He went to Arizona. They couldn't do medication at the Team Challenge. But there was a place in Bend, Oregon, that their Team Challenge also did medication. And he could follow up with a psychiatrist. And it was 5 months later then then he had a successful Then he died by suicide in in South Bend when he was at 23. And it was 2 weeks ago was the 9 year anniversary.

Roger Marsh: Oh, Jackie, I'm so sorry. You know, it's interesting today here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk talking with Jackie Ann Baker. She's the author of a book called Messy Morning. And it's a Hope for Moms who are grieving the self-inflicted ending of a life for them one of their children. And in this case, it was her son Sebastian. As you were describing this account, I was thinking about another story I've read from a couple who were involved in a similar situation almost to the letter in terms of the the ages. But the way it started, it started with an ADHD diagnosis.

And there were some meds that were prescribed in this young man. He was probably 13 or so going to a Christian school in Colorado. He didn't like being on the meds. And so when friends introduced him to marijuana, he preferred that to the ADHD meds because as they put it later in a book that they wrote about his story, they said he he felt like he had a certain measure of control, like, okay, well, I'm I'm doing this and I'm controlling what I'm doing to kind of help regulate myself. And it spiraled out of control, all the things about the arrest, the changing of the locks, the calling the police in your own kid.

I mean, it just it's As you were describing this whole thing with Sebastian and everything you went through, what was it like for you and your husband if you're watching this escalate from gosh, he was kind of a moody kid to because you don't want to jump to conclusions, obviously. You don't want to sit there and say, oh my gosh, there's all these We have to really put the hammer medical professionals are crying out loud. We should know this. Exactly. And we're Christians. You have a degree in in in theology, too. So I mean, it's not like you've got the perfect home.

You've got James Dobson tapes. You've got books and I mean, you all of that. And it's not it's not working. But when was there a point where you kind of looked at each other and said, hey, this is a lot bigger than maybe we thought it was?

Jackie Ann Baker: Right. Oh, yeah. And it was interesting because of course like you said, we knew all those things. And we decided we needed to get counseling to help with this because as with any type of when you have children and you know, there's triangulation and there's always I always call it the weak link. And I was the weak link, not the weak link, but you know, Sebastian knew if I couldn't get it from dad, I could get it from mom because I'm always I think the moms are we're going to hold out because you know, we love our our sons.

We love our children so much. And as my husband said, you know it's bad when mom says enough is enough, you know. And I was like, yeah. And it came to the point where I had to ask Sebastian to leave home. Broke my heart. Cuz he had I noticed my credit cards were I was overdrawn. And I confronted him. And you know, I was like, Sebastian, did you do that? And he goes, maybe you should just change your your pin number. And that's what he I'm like, oh, I don't know this boy anymore. Who is this young man, you know?

Oh, it just broke my heart. And then I said, all right, I'm done. I'm done. And the book you know, even though you know, we had to evict him from our home and then you know, all the things, he always knew we loved him. And even the night he died, you know, the last words to were he asked to come home because at that time he had gotten kicked out of Team Challenge. He wasn't following the rules. He wasn't you know. And so they were going to put him in a He was going to go to a homeless shelter.

And the idea was 30 days. It tough love, you know. And some people might object to you know, what we the choice. And he was a you know, an adult young man. And he's like, can I come home? And I'm like, you you can't come home. And he goes, I know. I And he understood. And you know, and I said, you know, but you know, I love you. And he was, I love you too, mom. You know, and those were our last words before he died. But we At least I know, you know, he knew I loved him and I wanted the best for him.

And I just kept saying, just got to get through this program. And then we can you know, and then then you because he was worrying about jail time at that time if he didn't finish. And so he had some real concerns and anxiety. And I And I think in the end, he just my husband Steve would say that Sebastian just had these voices in his head telling him to kill himself all the time. And he said they just couldn't stop, you know. So you know, how do you compete with that, you know? And then he was on lithium at the very end.

So just really really really strong antipsychotics and you know, nothing was working for him at this time.

Roger Marsh: Very very interesting as you talk about this, Jackie, because I know there are some parents who are listening to us right now maybe who've experienced this and they're saying, oh my gosh, you you know, you you were living in our house for a while because we know exactly what that's like. And for others, they're probably saying, well now what about the faith component? What about God? I mean, God is all-knowing. God is all-powerful. And wasn't there something I mean, and again, I don't mean to sound rude by saying this or any suggestion of that. But the implication, I'm sure from some people is, well, where were you guys in your faith journey?

I mean, honestly, what was it like for you, Jackie, when you're on your face before God and saying, look, Sebastian is throwing his life away and we don't feel like we have any answers. God either, why don't you do something or what can we do? Why are you not showing us that? How did you I know you have a chapter in your book called The Lament of If Only. Talk about that because I mean that I 'm sure there are a lot of people who can relate to that and say, man, I wish I could help my grown child from making these stupid mistakes.

But they keep making them. Yeah.

Jackie Ann Baker: Oh. I know. I know. I always said I I wish my kids my thing was like I wanted them not to have free will till they were 35 and married and had their own kids. We always were very intentional about raising our children. You know, we the the deuteronomy about when you passage when you walk along the path. So we were always like everything was bringing in Jesus. Everything was you know, we're going to live our lives intentionally. And we knew that we before our kids were born, that was our prayer that this is going to be you know, how we're going to raise our kids knowing Jesus.

And everything was about Jesus. You know, it was more than just the we pray before meals. But like when we watch television shows like, okay, what's the good? Where's the biblical worldview? So we were really intentional about you know, engaging the world, not isolating them from the world, but you know, but keeping but walking alongside them in the world because the world is not an easy place to live. It is without I mean, it's hard enough with Jesus. I can't imagine without Jesus. But during those times that's when I you know, just clung to the scriptures.

Of course, in the Psalms, the Psalms were just so filled with laments and start. We forget about those, you know, because there is anger and weeping and you know, and madness and you know, and why are you doing this, God? But it was always to God. And so I realized, you know, it's okay for us to lament. And people think they have to look pretty before they come before the Lord. And it's like, no, we are all messes. And we He accepts us right where we're at. And so I clung to that. And I just remember one of my favorite books is by Tim Keller is Walking with God Through Pain and Suffering.

And I started reading that during this time with Sebastian. And one of the key things I remember Tim Keller was saying was, you know, why are we surprised why when things when we have suffering? We should be surprised when things are good because we you know, I'm like, wow, I never thought about it that way, you know, because we're either going to be in suffering or post-suffering or in suffering is about to come, you know, because we live in this broken world. And so I just knew you know, I I you know, grew up in a very broken home as well.

So I wasn't surprised that things were going to happen. Yeah, you always hope it never does. But eventually things are going to happen to you. And so just had to cling to the Lord. And And my husband would say, you know, the scripture we're quoting Peter is like, where else, Lord, are we going to go? You know, we can only you know. And so we that was one of our key verses like, we just can't go anywhere else but you. People used to ask me if I was mad at God. I said, no, I was never mad at God.

You know, I never was. I was mad at my son for what he did to me. I was so mad at him. And for a couple of years and I remember people were like, you can't be mad at your boy. And I remember because I would tell people when I get to heaven, I'm going to push Jesus aside and I'm going to slug my son for what he did to me. And they're like, you can't do that. I'm like, oh yes, I said Jesus understand. No. So

Roger Marsh: What parent has not felt that about their child? I mean, regardless of what they've done. And And of course obviously we're not talking about finding them and having them tackling them and you know, that by then we're we're we're over it. But But Jackie, I really appreciate the candor with which you have been able to articulate this up to this point with the fact that your son took his life, that you had not a contentious conversation the night before he did. I mean, literally it sounds like it was a hey, could you do this? No, I can't do that.

Okay. I love you, mom. I love you. Whatever. And it wasn't like a big old I hate you, slam the phone, slam the door, we're never going to talk again. It seemed like it was just part of where that rhythm where you were in that moment. And so Jackie, I want to ask you what And don't put anybody on the spot here or at least of all you. What was the best piece of advice, comfort that you got from someone during this season? And what was the absolute worst thing? Was the if you prayed more kind of on the bottom of the barrel there, you know, in terms of dealing with that?

Jackie Ann Baker: Well, I I think the best advice, the best thing I I got was actually just from I want to say Tim Keller. It was funny. It was from the books I read, you know. The idea of just people sitting beside me and just being present. I that was the best thing people could do. The best advice was from my husband. You know, and he's in the middle of this. And I'm a very self You know, I do everything. I'm self-sufficient. And he's like, if someone asks you to do something, you're going to say yes. And I realized so I learned to use my yes muscle when someone said, can I bring you groceries?

I'm going to say yes. That's not the time to worry about what you're eating, right? And they're going to say, can I mow your lawn? They're not going to do it perfect, but you're going to say yes. So I learned to say yes about a lot of things. And that was that was so helpful because otherwise I would have just been in a tailspin.

Roger Marsh: I was going to say, and you write about in your book Messy Morning, you also write about the fact that there were some things like with the church and stuff like that that you had been involved in. And your pastor kind of you know, challenged you a little bit and said, no, you're going to keep doing this. You need to Talk about why isolation is not the solution when you want to just say make the world go away. I'm just going to put a big blanket on and watch sad movies all day long because I'm missing him.

And yet your pastor said, no, you you've you're called to some things. Keep doing those things.

Jackie Ann Baker: You know, that was a shocker for me. Yeah, because it was easy. I didn't want to go to church. And you know, again, shame, the guilt, you don't want the pity from people because they're all looking at you or you think they're all looking at you. And maybe they are, too.

Roger Marsh: Sure. That's what it feels like.

Jackie Ann Baker: That's what it feels like. And if it's irrational or not, but it's your feelings. But I remember I was leading a girls group. I was mentoring some high school girls. And the idea was I was going to go with them for 4 years, you know. And they were sophomores. And so we met every week at my house, pizza, Bible study, you know, just chatting. And I loved them. But after my son died, I couldn't I couldn't do it, of course. And so it was like 3 months. And I I was feeling guilty because I wasn't meeting with my girls.

And And I I went to my the youth pastor Scotty. And I'm like, Scotty, I can't do this. And I just assumed he would say, oh, totally understand. And he challenged me and he just said, I said, I haven't even done a Bible study. I can't do this. He goes, that's okay. He goes, you need to let them see you grieve. And he said just so he challenged me just to let them see my life and not avoid my life. And so I did that. And so we did not do Bible study for 2 years.

We didn't. I mean, we talk about Sunday and stuff, but they just come they just came and hung out with me. You know, we ate pizza. We cried because they knew I was I mean, I was hurting, you know. And you know, they were 15 and 16 going through their own stuff. But I think it gave them you know, it gave them permission to grieve and talk. And And I still meet with those girls.

Roger Marsh: That's wonderful. Yeah, well, I love the fact, too, that you became a Bible that they could read. We've run out of time for this first segment, so I have to ask you if you can come back again next time and continue the story because you're leaving us on a bit of a cliffhanger, Jackie Ann Baker. But would you be able to join us again for the next edition of Family Talk so we can conclude the story?

Jackie Ann Baker: I sure will. Thank you.

Roger Marsh: Jackie Baker is the author of the book Messy Morning, Hope for Mothers Grieving the Loss of a Child by Suicide. We have that link up at drjamesdobson.org. And Jackie, we look forward to continuing the conversation next time. Well, you've been listening to my conversation with Jackie Ann Baker here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. Jackie is the author of the book called Messy Morning, Hope for Mothers Grieving the Loss of a Child by Suicide. You'll find today's program along with the link for the book up at drjamesdobson.org. And if today's conversation struck a chord with you, maybe because you're walking through a hardship of your own right now, something so painful that it's difficult to understand how a loving God could allow it.

Well, if that's where you find yourself, I want to share with you about a free resource from the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. It's our 10-day email series based on Dr. Dobson's book When God Doesn't Make Sense. Over those 10 days, these honest and encouraging messages walk straight into life's most difficult questions. And they show how even our deepest valleys can become the place where we meet God most closely. To sign up for the free 10-day email series, go to drjamesdobson.org and search for that title When God Doesn't Make Sense. Again, you'll find that at drjamesdobson.org or jdfi.org.

They are one in the same website. Conversations like the one you heard on today's Family Talk broadcast reach families all across the country because friends like you keep them on the air. The Dr. James Dobson Family Institute is here to strengthen marriages, to equip parents, defend the sanctity of human life, and to introduce as many people as possible to the gospel of Jesus Christ. When you partner with us, you join a mission that reaches millions, bringing biblical hope and encouragement to families who need a voice they can trust. Your donation of any amount helps us carry that message to listeners all across America.

And you can donate today through our secure website at drjamesdobson.org or if it's easier, just type in those initials jdfi.org. That'll take you right to our homepage. You can also speak with a member of our constituent care team. That number is 877-732-6825. That's 877-732-6825. Well, I'm Roger Marsh. And on behalf of all of us here at Family Talk and the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, thank you so much for joining us today. Be sure to tune in again next time when Jackie Ann Baker continues her story sharing of how God carried her family through the long years of grief that followed, a story that she chronicles in her new book called Messy Morning, Hope for Mothers Grieving the Loss of a Child by Suicide.

That's coming up right here on the next edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.