Family Talk

Dr. James Dobson: You're listening to Family Talk, the radio broadcasting division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I am that James Dobson and I'm so pleased that you've joined us today.

Roger Marsh: Well, welcome to another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. Roger Marsh here once again, and our program today features a continuing conversation with Judy Henderson and her daughter Angel McDonald. At Judy at 1982, she was sentenced to prison for a crime she did not commit. She spent 36 years of unwavering faith and persistence while she was locked up. Eventually granted clemency in 2017 and was pardoned in 2018. And this really was more of a matter of vindication than just giving her freedom. Judy was running a successful business at the time when she was wrongfully convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison, but while she was behind bars, she earned her GED.

She earned a paralegal certification. She pioneered programs connecting incarcerated mothers with their children and also has become a powerful voice for women's rights and prison reform, including some landmark legislation recognizing battered women's syndrome as a legal defense in the state of Missouri. She has written a book about her experience, which we've been discussing for the past couple of programs here on Family Talk. The book is called When the Light Finds Us from a sentenced life to a transformed one. Judy Henderson and her daughter Angel McDonald, welcome back to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk for part two of our conversation.

Judy Henderson: Thank you. Thank you so much, Roger. It's good to be back with you.

Angel McDonald: Yes, thank you.

Roger Marsh: Well, it's definitely good to be back, especially because now we're picking up the story where you found faith in Christ. You how how long had you been in prison, Judy, before you you went to that 3-day retreat where all of a sudden God just really turned things around for you?

Judy Henderson: It was probably within 2 to 3 years of me being incarcerated.

Roger Marsh: Okay.

Judy Henderson: And that's whenever I realized in order to endure this situation, they have a saying in prison, either you do the time or the time does you.

Roger Marsh: Mm. Mm.

Judy Henderson: And I saw so much anger and so much pain and it was it was just heart-wrenching seeing mothers that didn't know how to mother behind bars.

Roger Marsh: Mm.

Judy Henderson: And seeing that generational curse at the enemy had over these families that made them all career criminals and just passing it down generation after generation. And so that's whenever I started my work into helping others, which is I think that's why God created us

Roger Marsh: Mm.

Judy Henderson: is I was able to find my purpose in this whole situation and I started while I was incarcerated.

Roger Marsh: That's so interesting to hear. I when you mentioned in our last conversation that your co-defendant, who was still awaiting trial when you had been sentenced, had actually ordered a hit on you, which is and I'm using, you know, that terminology. I don't know if that's even accurate, but I mean and and that forced you to go from smiling, happy, just get along to go along, go along to get along, Judy, to becoming someone who realized someone was trying to take your life behind bars. What was it like for you I mean eventually people referred to you in prison according to your book for you were Miss Judy.

You were the governor. You you were a mentor. You know, you kind of you had a you had a prominent place in that system, but starting out it wasn't always that way. What did you do to kind of fight that off as you were kind of stealing yourself to be a prisoner who was potentially going to be spending the rest of her life in jail?

Judy Henderson: Well, I like I said, I became a certified paralegal like you said in the introduction. And I used that that knowledge in order to help other lifers also for those that were wrongly convicted. And or maybe they're too long, the sentence didn't fit the crime. And so I was able to help them put their clemencies together and a lot of them made parole long before I did.

Roger Marsh: Interesting.

Judy Henderson: Yes, but you know what God did? He saved the best for last because everyone of them, of course, always wanted their sentence commuted to life time served and a pardon. They they were were released on parole. And they had to go before the parole board, then they were on parole. However, God, he just really gave me double for my trouble. And he gave me that day time served. The governor said, I'm commuting your sentence to time served, immediate release. And then he gave me a pardon.

Roger Marsh: Wow.

Judy Henderson: So I got the whole gift.

Roger Marsh: Yes, you got the whole package. I mean people don't realize when you hear someone being quote unquote out on parole, that's supervised basically it's supervised release, but you're still part of the system. I mean it's you're not behind bars, but you're still basically having to to deal with that. So for you to get a full pardon was was remarkable. Now, Angel, when did you first get a chance to when did you want to see your mom behind what was that like for you? I mean you're a teenager when she got arrested, convicted, and then sentenced.

And there you're thinking, gosh, I may never see her outside of prison again. What was it like the first couple of times you visited her?

Angel McDonald: It was really different. I went with my grandma. My dad actually took me a couple of times too, but it was hard to to go in. It was scary, you know, first of all, very scary. And then there were so many rules and now they have a lot more rules than they did even back then, that many years ago. We could you know, do a lot more, but and then it was just hard to to leave her, you know. I think that was probably it was scary to go in and it was hard to leave knowing that I got to leave and go home, but she wasn't going to.

And then you know, it's crazy because then it becomes a part of your life. You know, it becomes the new normal. And then I went to visit prisons for 36 years. And you know, it didn't ever get easy though. I can honestly say like I mean it became normal, but not easy if that makes sense.

Roger Marsh: Oh yeah, it it makes perfect sense because sometimes the simple is not easy. You know, there's there's only two steps to it, but it's not easy to actually do. And and the fact that we read about in Judy in your book when the light finds us that that whole process that you just mentioned, you were trying to get parole and it could they kept shooting it down, but eventually the pardon kept through. What's interesting about this is that you write about in your book that there was an inmate, a fellow inmate that was helpful. There was a woman named Shannon and and you developed a friendship with her and and then Angel even, you know, get how did that you know, how did you stay strong and focused and you know, keep that going so that you finally did get the traction for your case to be reviewed after it had been turned down time and time and time again?

Angel McDonald: You know, I believe that God just kept bringing people into my life. One door would close and another one would open and somebody new would come in until I started putting together a big team. I had to understand not only the law, but how politics worked.

Roger Marsh: Please say that again louder for the people in the back. There are so many people who look at the criminal justice system and they say, well, it's very fair and it's tit for tat and you know, you do this, then you get this. And they don't realize how highly politicized it's become and especially in cases where they might look at you and say, hey, we have this woman here and she was part of this crime and this that and the other thing. So we're going to keep her in longer because quite frankly, we're not interested in letting her go.

I mean it and I don't mean to sound crass, but I mean just my experience in working with families that have had this happen, that is the norm.

Angel McDonald: That is the norm. He was running for chief prosecutor, so politics played a big part in my sentence and my conviction and he used my case as tough on crime. And it made him look bad. But I do want to say that after 20 years he became one of my biggest advocates.

Roger Marsh: Really?

Angel McDonald: Because he said it was no other cases ever given him nightmares like mine did. And he let the governor know that he wanted me to come home. He wanted this to end. So yeah, so it ended up he even turned himself around. God did.

Judy Henderson: Yeah.

Angel McDonald: Yeah, God did. Yes, you're right, Angel. You're right. Yeah. And so he did become one of my advocates and we met afterwards and he you know, apologized of course and but I wrote him every year. After about 20 years I wrote him to let him know that I had forgiven him. I felt like he was doing a job that he was elected to do and he did it very well. And regardless of what his motive was, he got his conviction. But I said, I want to let you know what I've been doing all these years and what my family has been doing.

And every year I would send a new update on what I was doing.

Roger Marsh: I love the fact that you stayed present with him and just kept checking in with him saying you just as a reminder because I think of the in scripture the prayer of the persistent widow, you know, and and thinking, okay, we keep coming and we keep coming and and sometimes it's not so much a question of did I pray the perfect prayer? Sometimes it literally is just that that's the straw that broke the camel's proverbial back and and I might

Angel McDonald: I'm tired of her.

Roger Marsh: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's that's scriptural. So I think that's wonderful. Judy Henderson's book When the Light Finds Us from a Sentence Life to a Transformed One is up at drjamesdobson.org. And as we're talking about the moment of her release, take us back, Judy, if you would, to December 20th, 2017. What was that visit like? What was that document like? I mean that literally was a game changer for you. Take us through that day.

Angel McDonald: Yes. Well, Roger, one thing I do want to point out to the audience is, you know, God works in numbers also. So I had went through six governors and it was finally the seventh governor, God's number of completion that I was released. And even though two other three parole boards had made their recommendation to other governors to release me and they did not do so. So for the seventh governor to come in his first not even at the end of his term, which is normal politically because they do not want anything to jeopardize their political career.

Roger Marsh: Oh sure, they do it on the way out the door by all means. Yeah.

Angel McDonald: Yes. He did it his first year of his first term. So for him to do that, that was a miracle in itself. And for a governor to even come to a prison to release a lifer is a miracle. I mean my my case is just full of miracles. Full of God saving my life hit after hit or you know, so many different things that transpired in my in my case and a hit put on us before I ever came to prison and my mom had something to do with that miracle years prior and I mean there's just so many ways that you can see how God worked in my life.

And I always tell people I'm the cat of nine lives. Because God was not done with me yet. He had a purpose in all of this. And so the day that they told me to go to visiting room, I actually refused to go because I said no my attorney it wasn't even a visiting day. And I said, my attorney is not going to come and see me without letting me know first. And they said, if you don't go, you're going to the hole. And I said, okay, I think I'm going. I am going.

Roger Marsh: That's that's a very persuasive argument right there. Yeah.

Angel McDonald: Yeah, am I there yet? And so then whenever I got there it's I still waited an hour and a half and I thought this is really strange. You know, this is really bad news evidently for my attorney to just show up out of the blue. And so finally after an hour and a half they said, okay, you you can you can go in now, Judy. So I went in and the governor's attorney had been there to see me like 3 weeks prior, but he said, I just have a couple questions to ask you while I'm you know, while I am here that the governor wants me to get an answer for him on.

And but he said, this doesn't mean anything's going to happen. We just are looking at your case and that's all we can tell you. So whenever I saw him in the visiting room I saw it was him, not my attorney, but my attorney was there. I just didn't know she was there. She was in hiding with my family. And he said, well, actually, Judy, he said there's somebody that has been waiting to see you and I'm wanting to meet you. And I said, well, who would want to meet me, an inmate? And because they always make you feel like that you're worthless whenever you're in that setting.

So I thought, who you know, who would want to see me anyways? So he said, turn around. And so I turned around and there was a governor standing right there. Wow. Yeah, right behind me. And how he got through those metal doors that are so heavy without me hearing him, that was that was a miracle in itself.

Roger Marsh: Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness. I mean that that moment I'm sure the reunion was just incredible. And Angel, why don't you pick up some of the the the gap here in terms of you and your mom and your brother Chip and everyone getting together? What was it like for you guys realizing after 36 years, hey, this is happening. It's really happening.

Angel McDonald: It was So it was so amazing. I mean when I got the call the night before to ask me or 2 days before to ask if I could meet them at the prison and keep a secret, I said, absolutely. And they didn't they still didn't tell me she was coming home, but we knew, you know. And and my aunt flew in from Arizona and rented a limo to go pick her up in. And so we had everybody and we couldn't tell anybody outside, you know, because they didn't want it to be released before they told her.

And and just getting there and the governor coming in and meeting us and he went to each and every one of us and apologized for what we had gone through for 36 years. Yeah. And I mean we were so over the moon that we were going to get to bring her home that, you know, it was like all that time had just erased and God had restored 36 years in one moment, you know. And then just walking through those doors and hugging her and being able to walk out with her was I mean it was a dream come true.

I know like for 36 years we had prayed and believed and had faith. And you get those looks on people's face where they're like, yeah, okay. You know, that's sweet that you're going to believe that your mom's going to come home, but not really believe it. And then to see that no, I am serious like God answers prayers. They might take a while, but he does answer.

Roger Marsh: It's incredible. Judy Henderson's book is called When the Light Finds Us from a sentenced life to a transformed one. The link is up at drjamesdobson.org. And Angel, before I ask your mom another question, you and I were talking before our time together here about the fact that when the book came out you really were kind of hesitant to to even take a look and and read that. What was it like for you to read this story?

Angel McDonald: You know, I was afraid to face what was said in it and didn't know like our perspectives are different. And and so whenever I got the courage to actually read it before it was right before it was released, um I I thought, what a miracle, what a gift that God has given me and my family because so many people go their whole lives and they don't get to understand their family from that perspective of why we do the things we do, why we make the decisions we make, why what happened to our family. And so it is such such a gift, but it was one that the enemy tried to keep me afraid of and scared of because of the pain that I, you know, associated with the story, but it was actually a gift and an inspiration.

Roger Marsh: Judy, what's it like been like for you? I mean this happened in 2017. We're about a decade removed from this now. What were those few first few weeks and months like where you've been working for this for such a long time and now you really are free physically, but emotionally, spiritually. How did that transformation take place?

Angel McDonald: Well, I I knew that I wanted to write a book at one point during my incarceration and then I kind of just kind of let it go until everybody started hearing about my situation and said, Judy, you have no choice here. You have to write a book because what happened to you and the miracles that you received throughout your your incarceration and your life is something that people need to hear. They need to know that God is alive and well and he's working his miracles even today. And so I did. And whenever I first come home, yeah, it was it was took a lot of getting used to because I knew nothing about technology.

Yeah, the cars look like the inside of a cockpit. And the cell phone

Roger Marsh: The computers on the dashboards and everything. What a trip. Yeah.

Angel McDonald: And I think I'll never be able to drive again in my life. You know, and then the phone

Judy Henderson: She might run over a few curbs every now and then.

Roger Marsh: Give her a little grace. Come on.

Angel McDonald: That's right. That's right. But you know what? I was really blessed, Roger, because I got to come home, which was a God gift because everybody in that I was in prison with, all the staff, even the wardens tell me, Judy, quit packing your your boxes. You're not going home. You're going to die here. And we want you to just accept that. And I said, no, I'm not. I'm going home. I am going home. They asked me to start honor dorms for help them set up honor dorms or start programs. And I said, okay, but I'm not going to be here to you know, to see them through.

And they said, yes, you will, you you, Judy. You know, they always try to convince me that I wasn't going to

Roger Marsh: And they thought they were helping, I would imagine.

Angel McDonald: Yeah. Yeah, I think they wanted me to just adjust. And I had adjusted to my my thinking, but I'm I'm adjusting to the fact I'm going to be free.

Roger Marsh: That's right. That's right. Yeah. And and what a blessing for you now to enjoy your two children. Is it nine grandchildren, nine great grandchildren on top of that too? Oh my goodness. What a

Angel McDonald: Nine and nine.

Roger Marsh: What a blessing. What a blessing. What's it as we're getting ready to wrap up our time together, Judy, what's something that when it comes to incarcerated mothers that that that we don't necessarily understand and and what where's the advocacy? Where's the opportunity for us in in the body of Christ to say, look, there are people who wind up getting sentenced and convicted convicted and sentenced all the time for crimes they did commit, but there's probably a lot of other people who are in your situation who were innocent bystanders kind of if I may collateral damage in certain areas that wind up too.

What do you see a lot of moms who fit that second category?

Angel McDonald: I do. And I I it's sad because I think the the people forget that these children are victims also. It's just not the person that maybe was harmed or killed or that that are victims. The families of incarcerated people are victims too. And the children are the ones that suffer the most. And people just kind of put them in the background and I I can I feel there's more that there's more programs that need to be created to help these children with scholarships to college. You know, send them that way instead of sending them to the street where they learn more career you know, we create more career criminals.

Take them and nourish you know, nourish them and nurture them and love on them because that's if when you don't do that, you're creating more criminals. And that's where the curses keep happening. And I think more children like my daughter, of course, she has a perfect name according to me. And you know, letting letting people hear the children of incarcerated parents listen to what they're saying, listen to the pain that they had to suffer themselves. And I think that sometimes where our citizens and our organizations and our churches, they forget about those kids. And they need lifted up.

They need prayer. They need loved on.

Judy Henderson: They also need to know that their parents, even though they're incarcerated that they're important.

Roger Marsh: Yeah.

Judy Henderson: You know, as a daughter that walked through that, I would say that you know, sometimes they're like, oh poor you, your mom's bad. But that's not what we want to hear. We want to hear, you know what? God has a plan for her and it's a good plan, you know. And and there is hope.

Angel McDonald: Right. Right.

Roger Marsh: What a powerful testimony from Judy Henderson today here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. A brand new book, which I can't recommend highly enough, is called When the Light Finds Us from a sentenced life to a transformed one. We have a link for it up at drjamesdobson.org. And it's been an honor to feature Judy and her daughter Angel McDonald over the past couple of days here on the Family Talk broadcast. Judy, thank you for your testimony. Thank you for sharing it with so many people and and the work that you continue to do. And Judy and Angel, thank you so much for being a part of Dr.

James Dobson's Family Talk today.

Angel McDonald: Thank you, Roger, for having us.

Roger Marsh: You know, there are seasons in life when nothing seems to make any sense. We pray for answers. We wait for circumstances to change. And yet sometimes the waiting lasts far longer than we ever imagined. Judy Henderson's story reminds us that even in those darkest places God has not abandoned us. You've been listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk and the conclusion of my conversation with Judy Henderson along with her daughter Angel McDonald. Judy has been sharing her remarkable testimony about being locked up for 36 years for a crime she did not commit. And you can read more about her story in her book called When the Light Finds Us from a sentenced life to a transformed one.

We have a link for the book as well as for our conversation up at drjamesdobson.org. You know, maybe Judy McDonald's story connected with something that you're walking through right now. You've experienced a loss or disappointment, maybe heartache you simply cannot explain. And you've wondered, where is God in the middle of all this? Well, if so, I want to share with you about a free resource from the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. It's simply called When God Doesn't Make Sense. This is a 10-day email series based on Dr. Dobson's best-selling book and it explores what happens when we encounter trials so painful that we struggle to understand why would God ever allow them?

The truth is we may never completely understand some of the circumstances that we'll face in this life, but these daily messages can help strengthen your faith and remind you that even the darkest valleys can lead us into a deeper relationship with the Lord. You can sign up for the 10-day email series called When God Doesn't Make Sense. It's absolutely free. Simply go to drjamesdobson.org and search for that title. Again, drjamesdobson.org or just use those initials jdfi.org. Those websites are one and the same. Remember that programs like today's are possible because friends like you believe in the mission of the Dr.

James Dobson Family Institute. For more than 15 years now we've been bringing you trusted voices and timeless wisdom to help strengthen your family. And your financial support helps us continue sharing biblical truth and encouragement with marriages, families, and individuals all around the world. To make a donation today you can go to our secure website drjamesdobson.org. Or if you prefer, you can speak with a member of our constituent care team. That number is 877-732-6825. That's 877-732-6825. Well, I'm Roger Marsh and on behalf of all of us here at Family Talk and the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, thanks so much for joining us today.

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