Family Talk

Dr. James Dobson: You're listening to Family Talk, the Radio Broadcasting Division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I am that James Dobson and I'm so pleased that you've joined us today.

Roger Marsh: Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh and the program you're about to hear deals with some very difficult subject matter, so listener discretion is advised, especially if you have little ones listening along with you right now. There's a quote from the philosopher George Santayana that is echoed across the decades. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. Santayana lived through the years of the Holocaust and his warning still speaks to us even today. During the next half hour, we're going to be sharing part two of a memorable conversation Dr.

Dobson had with Deet Ayman. Deet was a Holocaust survivor who was imprisoned by the Nazis for helping Jewish families to escape to safety. As a young woman in the Netherlands, she joined the resistance and even after her release from a concentration camp, she returned to fight to save more lives. Her powerful testimony is captured in the book called Things We Couldn't Say. Deet Ayman went home to be with the Lord in 2019. She was 99 years of age, but her story continues to stir hearts even today. As Christians, we know that even in the darkest chapters of history, the Lord is still at work.

The psalmist David put it this way. Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I will fear no evil, for you are with me. God never leaves us. He never forsakes us and even in our most desperate hours, he is always with us. Today, we're bringing you this conversation because we should never forget the sacrifices made by those who suffered during the Holocaust. We must not forget the history of evil and religious persecution, but we must also never forget the history of the liberators like Deet Ayman and the courageous men and women who laid down their lives so that others could live free.

Now, here is Dr. James Dobson and his guest Deet Ayman as we remember the courage it takes to stand for what is right even in the face of unthinkable evil on today's edition of Family Talk.

Deet Ayman: Your fiance, Hein, was shot or was he starved to death? If you couldn't work anymore and they told that he was very weak man at that time because he had survived those two horrible camps with nearly nobody came out and then he was dragged to Dachau and they told me that he was taken out of the barrack on a Sunday evening and never came back. And it was January 20 45 and you know what happened? This is so strange. I was at a farm and that farmer had to take six people from Arnhem. Arnhem was bombarded, had to evacuate I don't know how many 150,000 people and the Germans just marched in the houses there in that area and say you farm you take six people, you take four and we had Jews at that farm.

But this farmer where I was often took six people in and that was on the beautiful room that it's a big room and they only use it with weddings and funerals and they put a big double bed and the daughter of that family was two years older than I was, so she had to sleep in that bed and I that was my address for if I was in that area. So if I was there, I always had to hop with Annie in the same bed. We slept in a double bed. And I remember it was bitter cold because there was no heating anymore and it was January 20 and I came there and I had such an unquiet feeling.

There is something with him. I feel it. And I did not know the date. I said what date is it? She said January 20. I said when he comes back, I'll ask him if he was very sick. That was the night he died.

Dr. James Dobson: Oh my.

Deet Ayman: Can you believe it?

Dr. James Dobson: How long had it been since you had seen him?

Roger Marsh: I had seen him the last and that was he was just before he was arrested. I had seen him the last April 23 and he went from where I saw him. We went It was a Sunday and we hadn't seen each other maybe in six weeks because he was the leader and he was always traveling. And I had a section where I had to take care and he wrote me a note. He said it's not good that we don't see each other. Be Saturday night on that in that farm and he had inquired because we could never go where people knew us, of course, because we So he said I've checked and in Amersfoort and there in that church they have communion and I'll pick you up Sunday morning on my bike and we go to communion and then we have dinner with the other leader.

There were only two leaders and he was six years older. He was married and they had a little baby. And he said then we have dinner there. So that happened and it was April 23 and we had dinner and after dinner the farmers always take a nap. And we went on our bikes and just it was the first day that the flowers from the fruit trees came out. And it was like he had a feeling that it was the last time. He told me everything about the work that he had never done and I didn't really even want to know it.

And then he pulled out his Bible and he read for me John 14 in my father's home are many mansions. And then we prayed together. And it was so strange and people maybe think that I'm nuts. But we were on our bikes all alone in that country road and the trees blooming. And I clearly heard a voice say and you don't know Dutch. It said That means have a good look at him. And it was like a voice and I And I thought this is crazy. So I went on. I heard it again. And then I he was very tall, over 6 ft, and I looked up because this was so strange and he started laughing at that he staring at me and I did not dare to tell him.

And he brought me to the farm and it was the last time I saw him.

Dr. James Dobson: The last time you saw him? And you had wedding plans?

Roger Marsh: My wedding

Dr. James Dobson: How soon you were going to get married as soon as the war was over?

Roger Marsh: We should already have been married, but we we took our wedding license out just before that they came to arrest us.

Dr. James Dobson: Well, those days are long gone, Deet, and the Lord is sure using you now. You speak seven languages, I understand.

Roger Marsh: I studied seven languages. I started studying Russian in the war. I thought the next war will be against Russia. I can at least And And I didn't tell anybody. I thought if there is a war, then they don't know it, but I can hear what the enemy says.

Dr. James Dobson: Are you serious?

Roger Marsh: I was serious. That's why

Deet Ayman: Well, honest, I did. And I took I think a year and a half and then our teacher, Hein, also first And after And then I took it, but our teacher was a and he was arrested and he was also killed in the camp. And then I later found another lady and I had more classes and so I studied it three years and at that time I could read and write it, but if you don't keep it up, you forget it. Do you know?

Dr. James Dobson: Did Do you still love the Lord?

Deet Ayman: Oh yes. He had He does so much and

Dr. James Dobson: You have a personal relationship with him?

Deet Ayman: Oh, I wouldn't know what to do without him. No, and I I find every time that he is apart from love that God has a sense of humor. Do you find that?

Dr. James Dobson: Oh, I certainly do. I do.

Roger Marsh: I hate to say this, but sometime ago I had to be I follow with the navigators one year through the Bible and I think I want to do that. I need the discipline, but I had to be early. I had a physical, so I had to be at 7:30 at the doctor. And if I don't do it right in the morning, my days are so busy, then So that day flew and the day got busy. I didn't do it. So the doctor tomorrow morning without breakfast to the lab. That day I didn't do it and I hate to say it.

Before you know it I think about eight or nine days had passed and I hadn't And I felt so guilty. But this was crazy. I was had to go very far and I was 79 and I was sitting in my car and I was griping to God have you forgotten that I'm supposed to be retired and I have no time to read the book and I've canceled the paper and I have this and that and that and I was griping and all of a sudden it stopped. I think idiot, it's you. You don't know your priorities.

So I thought when I come home, I'm taking where I'm supposed to be today and read that. It's always 40 45 minutes. And then I'll take also one of where I'm behind. I come home. I'd been sitting and griping that I was 79 and so busy and I've got it forgotten I was retired. And I open the Bible where I'm supposed to be. Guess what? Moses was 80 when he led the Israelites out of Now, did I

Dr. James Dobson: That's the Lord's answer to you.

Roger Marsh: Yeah, but did I start laughing? I think Lord, you're telling me something. I haven't even started yet. But isn't that Do you find those things

Dr. James Dobson: Oh, I do and and he he always surprises me. I never know exactly where he's taking us, but uh he is the sovereign Lord and he knows what he's doing and I've learned to yield to him.

Deet Ayman: Now, she there were 175 women in that barrack and many needed There were Jewish girls in the beginning and they were evangelizing and when they were speaking, there was always a large crowd around them if they were the guides weren't watching. But I had my God and also I had found that they everywhere had spies to find out who I was. So I had to act a role. I became a loner. And there were two you know a lone person. And I didn't want anything because in the barrack were two people who had been in Paramaribo in Suriname where on my false papers I was supposed to be born and I didn't know a thing about it.

And then they Hein was a very famous film star or actress Annie Manger. And I said why is Annie? She was and through the whole world on her, you know, trips and I advise Annie here and then they said she was she's engaged to a German and I anything with German stay away. So I didn't trust her. And then Annie Manger here is from Billy Laiman was born in Suriname where I'd never been. And she comes up to me and she says Billy, I hear you were in Suriname. I said yes. He says did you see me when we I said no.

My dad had long leave and we were away, but I didn't know. And then she said no, where did you live? I didn't know a street name in that city. So I said sorry sorry, I have diarrhea, so I stormed to the bathroom and I was Lord, what am I going to do? She'll come back, you know. And then the Lord was very good. There was an lady in her early 40s and the woman was she radiated sadness. So I kept my eye on her and she they lived in Paramaribo and I thought you are safe because you saw the suffering.

And that lady got diarrhea and she ran to the bathroom and there were 10 toilets right on a row. So I pretended that I had it too and I sat next to her and I said don't ask any questions. Will you please tell me everything about Paramaribo? And she told me I said street names and everything. So she told me. So after that I was ready for Annie Manger. But I think how God takes care

Dr. James Dobson: Yeah. Mm.

Deet Ayman: Isn't it amazing?

Dr. James Dobson: Mm.

Deet Ayman: And then they she came back to and I always dreaded it, but then at least I knew some stuff.

Dr. James Dobson: Mm. The name of the book is Things We Couldn't Say by Deet Eyman. Uh what's behind the title?

Roger Marsh: James Kap chose that and he said at that time you couldn't talk about it, so we couldn't say it. And he said for afterwards for many years you didn't want to speak it, so you couldn't say it. So that's how he felt. But you know the book was translated in Dutch and into German. And then in 96 I was asked to come to Germany, speak for churches, colleges and when they found out my German was good, I was asked to speak for the biggest radio station in Stuttgart that covered half Germany. And then they told me speak clear because Berlin wants to buy it.

And on Kristallnacht, November 9, we want to send it out over whole Germany. And they did and after that I got so many letters from Germans. They asked me forgiveness and men wrote uh God says he will punish till in the third and fourth generation and he said that's true. My grandfather was the boss of all the railroads. He sent those millions to the to the camps and the ovens and my wife's father was your top guy from the SS in in Holland, Rauten, and she's he said we can't sleep. My we sometimes wake up screaming in the night, but it was his grandfather.

And then I wrote him back. I said but you didn't finish the sentence. It says God will punish in the third and fourth generation of those who hate me. And this man was suffering. He didn't hate God. And we have had some correspondence.

Dr. James Dobson: So German people when they hear your message, ask you to forgive them? And you think they bear a sense of guilt even today for what they place?

Roger Marsh: Oh, they do. I You know this was for me a test when I went to Germany and be surrounded by them with the hatred bubble up again. I spoke in a church and a lady came up to me. She was 51. This was in 96, so she was a baby or hardly born. And the tears streamed down her cheek and she says to me there is not a day in my life that I don't have to think of the suffering we caused in the whole world. And I thought I said you were a baby. And you know I met so many of those people and I I ended up with having deep deep pity because it's really it's better that it's done to you than that you have done it and they hadn't even done it.

Dr. James Dobson: Well, I want to say to our listeners I read this book. It is a page turner. You know what that is? You can't stop reading and uh it just pulls you in. It's a fascinating book. There's there's uh a great application to what we're going through today. We don't have that kind of oppression, but sin is sin and it's still represented here and we're still killing babies. And uh And we're moving even more and more in the direction of devaluing human life, which is really what was at the base of of what occurred there in Holland.

Uh one last question. Does it hurt you to see how your native country of Holland has forgotten God?

Roger Marsh: Terrible. Terrible. And really we thought the resistance people and I found later out from somebody in the government that the real resistance and I thought there were so many were only about 22,000 people. And we really thought that after this war was over that the world would be a better place. And it didn't work that way. And it's deeply saddening that they have totally At that time the churches were crowded. If you didn't go early, they stood. They sat on the floors. They were hanging. They stood in the portals and they were

Dr. James Dobson: And now it's one of the most godless places on the face of the earth. Amsterdam is a just an evil city.

Roger Marsh: And Oh, anything And it's it's so because, you know, my friends uh they say don't you want to come back? I would never want to live there again. No. I I'm happy to visit my friends, but

Dr. James Dobson: There still are strong Christians there.

Roger Marsh: The farmers who know where the rain and the sunshine comes from, but the suburbs of the the luxurious suburbs churches are empty. Empty. We had always morning and evening services. Long ago the evening services were were closed. And what happens now they are so empty, so that is the only good thing. You know the Dutch we are very um You know it you have only two political parties and you are a big Well, the third one. But we have I think 16 parties. If a Dutch person doesn't agree and they believe strong like they start a new party, but they do that also with the churches.

So we have so many denominations, but now because of this denomination I always felt Jesus last prayer was that they be one. So I don't agree with that it's wrong. But now because of out of need they can't pay the heating anymore for 20 people in the big church. So they are getting together for that.

Dr. James Dobson: And they're selling those wonderful old cathedrals to Muslims.

Roger Marsh: To Now, not the old cathedrals, but the regular churches that were made be be built.

Dr. James Dobson: Churches Because they're empty.

Roger Marsh: They filled them in They They sell them to The Muslims want to buy them.

Dr. James Dobson: Are you praying for revival in your country?

Roger Marsh: I hope so much. I hope so much. Well, there's so much to pray for in the Netherlands and abortion is nothing. Euthanasia is now official. They did it already without, but now it's official.

Dr. James Dobson: And at the time that the Nazis came in, the Germans came in to your country Christianity was almost universal, wasn't it?

Roger Marsh: Oh, absolutely. And the difference between the the Catholics and the Protestants we were all one.

Dr. James Dobson: Yeah.

Roger Marsh: And we all believed in the same God and we all want

Dr. James Dobson: You You write in this book about the fact that that uh people didn't even know if it was right before God to resist the German army because they didn't want to displease God.

Roger Marsh: No, that was one very small group who felt uh Jesus said give Caesar what is Caesar's. So they felt when God gives us Hitler, we have to obey. But in our royal family we have them since 1533 and they were always crowned by the grace of God. They have all been Christians. They fought with us and they financed the war that Spain wanted to bring the Catholic faith by the sword. And then in the Netherlands we are such free people that the Catholics sided with the Protestants against power. You can't bring faith by the sword.

So we had 80 years war with Spain. And a Protestant prince from Germany financed it all and they made him the first prince of Orange.

Dr. James Dobson: Oh.

Roger Marsh: And then now the descendants are still descendants from this wonderful man. And uh we love them.

Dr. James Dobson: When Queen Wilhelmina left Holland, you felt betrayed by her, didn't you?

Roger Marsh: Oh, so many. But see the Belgian king stayed and we said we considered her. You say the father of this fatherlands. That was the title of the first And we felt she was our mother. When there was need, she was always there. And we loved her, even the Communist and the people who would like a Republic loved her. But Leopold in Belgium stayed and he had many palaces and the Germans told him you go in that palace. It had a high wall and he could never speak to his people. But our Queen and the whole government and we were a wealthy country.

We had the East Indies and the national treasury. They all And the Queen didn't want to leave and the government said you have to go. You have to go. So she left for England. And then our government was there and that was the government God given to us because we had to struggle who do we obey. But to us it was so clear our government, our ministers, everybody was And the ministers did did not It was not a flight for fear. They left their wives and children in the Netherlands. They really did it to represent our country.

So we obeyed them and over the radio they gave us instructions and we did it.

Dr. James Dobson: Deet, having seen so much history as it unfold, what advice do you have for Americans and Canadians, younger people who haven't been through difficulty and haven't been through oppression? You have anything to say to them?

Roger Marsh: Well, I would say we don't know what will happen. We don't know the future. But if we have faith God will show it when the time is there. You don't know it beforehand because during my lunchtime somebody asked uh you know about I three times faced death. I did I really thought this is going to be my last minute. And you know something very special when that comes God gives you a special grace.

Dr. James Dobson: You were prepared to accept it?

Roger Marsh: 23 and when it had happened then okay God, if that's your will, it's okay. But when the dangerous pass that's taken away And then later I had this my hearing again. Would they believe me? And there was a third time that I thought this is the end. And every time when you need it, you get that grace. And I think with the use young people to when you face it you feel what God's will is. And if you do that, then you get his strength and his blessing. But we don't know beforehand what's going to happen.

Dr. James Dobson: Despair is a sin. Do you agree?

Roger Marsh: Yeah. But it's understandable. I mean And I think God knows that. Jesus in Gethsemane he He was suffering and he said Father, let the cup pass. And But he was not in despair, but he was suffering so much. But you know suffering causes despair.

Dr. James Dobson: Sure. And you suffered Deet, I appreciate you coming and spending these two days with us and for talking to me here. Thank you for being with us.

Roger Marsh: It was good to be here. Thank you.

Dr. James Dobson: Deet Ayman walked out of a concentration camp with nothing but a raincoat and her faith, singing that God is faithful and spent the rest of her life proving that she meant it. You've been listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk and the conclusion of a two-part conversation featuring Dr. Dobson and Holocaust survivor Deet Ayman. Now, if you missed any part of this remarkable interview, you'll find parts one and two online at jdfi.org. And while you're there, you can also learn more about Deet Ayman's book called Things We Couldn't Say, which tells her full story in her own words.

Well, Deet spoke again and again about the mothers and fathers who never stopped praying for their children even through those dark years. And if you're a mom carrying the weight of raising kids in a culture that feels harder every day, we would love to walk alongside you in that journey. We put together a series called Empowering Moms, practical parenting encouragement rooted in Scripture with a prayer to renew and inspire you along the way. You can sign up for this free email series when you go to drjamesdobson.org and search for that title Empowering Moms. Again, that's drjamesdobson.org.

Deet Ayman spent her life convinced that ordinary people in ordinary moments are called to stand for what's right. That same conviction is what drives us here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute each and every day. We exist to preserve and promote the family and the biblical principles upon which it's built to introduce as many people as possible to the gospel of Jesus Christ and to defend the sanctity of human life and righteousness in our culture. When you donate to the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, you become a part of that work. You help carry Dr.

Dobson's dynamic legacy forward to a new generation, one broadcast, one family, one changed heart at a time. So we invite you to partner with us today. Your gift of any amount helps keep programs like this one on the air and within reach of families all across the country. To send your donation through the U.S. Postal Service, remember our ministry mailing address is the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, P.O. Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Once again, our ministry mailing address is the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute or just use those initials jdfi for short, P.O.

Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, 80949. You can also make a secure gift online through our website. That's drjamesdobson.org drjamesdobson.org or you can speak with a member of our constituent care team when you call 877-732-6825. That's 877-732-6825. Well, I'm Roger Marsh and from all of us here at Family Talk and the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, thanks so much for joining us today. Be sure to tune in again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr.

James Dobson Family Institute.

Dr. James Dobson: What typically happens when mothers and fathers disagree on how to raise and especially how to discipline the children?

Dr. James Dobson: Here's today's Dr. Dobson Minute with Dr. James Dobson.

Dr. James Dobson: Here's a familiar scenario. Dad is more harsh and stern with the kids and he sometimes punishes in anger. Mom is more permissive. She lets them get away with behavior that should never be permitted and she becomes a pushover for those who tend to be rebellious. What happens in this situation is that the youngster typically respects neither parent because the authority of each is assassinated by the other. It's been my observation that the most hostile, aggressive teenagers I've known have emerged from this anesthetical combination. If parents love their children and want the best for them, they'll get together out of their hearing and come to a compromise on how the kids will be raised.

Anything less is asking for trouble during the adolescent years to come.

Dr. James Dobson: For more information, visit drdobsonminute.org.