Family Talk

Dr. James Dobson: You're listening the Family Talk, the radio broadcasting division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I am that James Dobson, and I'm so pleased that you've joined us today.

Roger Marsh: Well, welcome once again to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and our guest once again is Jackie M. Baker. Jackie is a nurse practitioner. She and her husband Steve is a doctor. They have medical practice. She has a degree in theology. Everything in her life was perfect until her son Sebastian got involved in some activities that ultimately led to him taking his own life. And Jackie is now the author of a book called Messy Morning, Hope for Mothers Graving the Loss of a Child by Suicide.

We have a link for that book up at drjamesdobson.org. And Jackie, welcome back to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk for round two of this conversation about Sebastian and Steve and you and Isabella and what you guys have been through in the time leading up to Sebastian taking his own life, but then in these nine years after he did so. Thanks for being with us on the program again today.

Jackie M. Baker: Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure to be here.

Roger Marsh: I think it's been helpful. And again, we mentioned this at the start of our last program. If you have young children watching along with you on YouTube or listening here on the broadcast side of the equation, please use discretion because we're having a very candid conversation about suicide and how it impacts a family. In this case, Sebastian was he was 23 when he took his life and had had psychotic episodes, been involved in drug use and abuse, and all the things that you never think when your son is born that you would ever be saying about your child, you detailed in part one of the program.

The book that we are talking about kind of started as a journal of sorts for you, did it not? I mean, is this you kind of writing and processing and how do I deal with all of that? I mean, talk about what that process is like cuz I 'm sure initially you're writing this and you're thinking I just have to put this down somewhere. But now you realize that potentially thousands of people are going to be reading this and saying wow, you're really helping me process my grief as well. What's that like What's that like for you?

Jackie M. Baker: Yeah. Well, that's fine. I never wanted to write this book. I always said I wanted to write the next Jane Austen novel. Uh you know, that was my that was my forte, you know. I love Jane. Um but so you know, I started writing I'd always been a writer, but you know, academically cuz I said you know, I have a master's in biblical studies and a doctorate in nursing practice. But so I started writing just to to deal with what was going on with me. I felt like I had you know, I had lost everything all of a sudden.

So my my daughter got married um six months after. That's how she dealt with her grief. I I And we talked about this and cuz she was just lost, too, of course. And my husband had just started a new job, so my daughter got married and left and I'm like I have just empty nested like in six months and I don't know what to do. It was it was pretty traumatic.

Roger Marsh: Was your daughter's relationship a new one that kind of grew out of Sebastian's situation or had she been with this guy for a while and they just decided to

Jackie M. Baker: She had. Yeah, she had been. And she was bringing him home. In fact, she brought Brandon home to meet Sebastian, actually, and then he died that night. So Brandon

Roger Marsh: Oh wow.

Jackie M. Baker: Yeah, I mean, that's talk about trial by fire for Brandon. I was like, what do I do with this kid? It's like he cuz he was just going to go meet he was going to meet Sebastian a couple days later cuz Isabelle really wanted him to meet you know, her brother. And she and Sebastian are so close. So just they were just best buds and you know, they she adored him. He loved her and just typical big brother, little sister scenario. So yeah, so I started writing in the journal and then I I joined like an online writing class.

And so I took 16 creative non-fiction classes and just started writing and writing. And so so I first I had written a memoir. I had nothing to do with Sebastian cuz I I needed something to do, you know. And so I thought I'll just write my story. And so I had written my manuscript, got it, and I was like shopping it around as you do. And I had a writing coach and my writing coach was like well, this was good and you know, you could definitely publish it. And she just bought I think this just prepared you to write Messy Morning.

Roger Marsh: Mm.

Jackie M. Baker: And I just I knew that was from the Lord and I was like you're right. You know, part of me is like here I got to write another book. I just finished writing the first book.

Roger Marsh: Yeah.

Jackie M. Baker: But then I I listened to her and I'm like okay, I'm going to write it. And so then I started write And I had already had I said I had my journals, but I had also been doing essays on Substack already talking about grief and what I was going through. And just And people resonated with it. It was interesting because you know, when I was shopping around books, you know, they're like well, what's your platform? How many followers do you have? And I'm like people do not people do not like when you write about grief.

It's not you're like you know, it's not like you're going to have followers about that, you know. And it's And so but people would come up to me and say I love what you wrote. And I'm like oh, okay. So then I started keep writing it. And then I started really when I wanted to write, I didn't want to just write all about me, but I you know, the things that I started seeing like how the church was dealing with suicide. And then some my research brain started kicking in um you know, my research background.

And so I'm like I really wanted to bring more to the table than just these are all the things you should do.

Roger Marsh: Now I'm so glad Well, I'm so glad you brought up the church aspect of this because in my last pastoral call, I remember a long time member of our congregation, she and her husband and their two daughters, their girls played soccer against my girls. I mean, we were all we all knew each other. And then they just kind of vanished. And about a year later, she showed up in church by herself one and she sat in the very back. And so I I saw her and after service, I came over and gave her a hug and said gosh, it's really good to see you again.

Hadn't seen you in a while. You know, what's happening? What's going on? And she told me about that she and her husband had separated and they were getting a divorce and and I said oh, I 'm so sorry. I mean, have we have we been able Did we know, you know, basically? And she said no. She said I I just when I mentioned to people that we were getting divorced, they just started kind of ghosting us.

Jackie M. Baker: Mm.

Roger Marsh: And you know, and I thought well, when you end your chapter when suicide comes to church, you talk about that there's a stigma where if you got a child that's fighting cancer or something like that or some kind of addiction, everybody rallies around you. But if they're dealing with a mental health issue that leads down the road that Sebastian's was, they look at you like what's wrong? You know, what happened here? Talk about that how the church can do a better job of coming alongside families that are wrestling with mental illness knowing that this is the kind of thing that could potentially take a life.

Jackie M. Baker: It's funny. We talk about suicide all the time. I mean, you know, like in the media, but when it comes to having conversations with it, people just they don't know what to say because it makes them feel uncomfortable. And of course it does. It makes me feel uncomfortable. After Sebastian died, people would just say in their awkwardness and their uncomfortable ness that things that were not helpful or you know, you always hear about you know, Sebastian going to hell or did divorce rate is really high when you're And I'm just like that is not helpful.

And so I'm like And these are well meaning Christian friends and I'm just like where is this coming from? But you know, now I can look back and say oh, they just didn't know what to say. They didn't know how to handle cuz the church We we don't have a training program about how do you help someone in this way. Now our pastor did an awesome job talking about you know, suicide in the church. And And I when we had the sermon, I was like memorial service, I'm like let's not sugar coat this. And And he did an awesome job.

And And I had heard him do We had another person in our church die by suicide and I I was the first time I had heard him talk and I was just like wow, he's not hiding it, but he is not condemning it. He's not saying it's the worst sin, you know. He's not saying that someone's going to go to hell or you know, or is it a sin, you know. He But it was just you know, love and compassion for this person and they're more than who they are. And so I even though you know, people were really good at our church, but there's this undercurrent I always say it's like that stigma.

And I think it's generational, you know, or even you know, historically, you know, the early church was so against suicide, Catholic, Protestant, or you know, wherever the early church fathers. And I I think there was a lot of misinterpretation or misunderstanding on what it was at that time. And you know, and then we didn't know the mental health issue at that time and we didn't understand that. So I think being more aware, you know, the biblical counseling that's becoming much more common place in churches can be a great resource if they're you know, and helping out you know, about de-stigmatizing those that are suffering from mental illnesses and knowing it's it's not a sin.

It's it's not a that there's more to it than just a writer wrong. I mean, I remember someone would tell me once well, if you just prayed enough, you know, it's like yeah, you know. It's like it's yeah.

Roger Marsh: Right. Oh yeah. I wonder Jackie, I wonder to ask you don't put anybody on the spot here or at least of all you. What was the best piece of advice, comfort that you got from someone during this season? And what was the absolute worst thing? Was the if you'd prayed more kind of on the bottom of the you know, in terms of dealing with that?

Jackie M. Baker: Well, I I think the best advice is from my husband. You know, and he's in the middle of this. And I'm a very self You know, I do everything. I'm self-sufficient. And he's like if someone asks you to do something, you're going to say yes.

Roger Marsh: Mm.

Jackie M. Baker: And And I realized so I learned to use my yes muscle when someone's like can I bring you groceries? I'm going to say yes. That's not the time to worry about what you're eating, right? And they're going to say can I mow your lawn? They're not going to do it perfect, but you're going to say yes. So I learned to say yes about a lot of things. And that was that was so helpful because otherwise I would have just been in a tail spin.

Roger Marsh: You also write about the fact that there were some things like with the church and stuff like that that you had been involved in. And your pastor kind of challenged you a little bit and said no, you're going to keep doing this. You need to Talk about why isolation is not the solution when you wanted to say make the world go away. I am just going to put a big blanket on and watch sad movies all day long because I'm missing him. And yet your pastor said no, you you've you're called to some things. Keep doing those things.

Jackie M. Baker: You know, that was a shocker for me. Yeah, because it was easy. I didn't want to go to church. You know, again, shame, the guilt. You don't want the pity from people cuz they're all looking at you or you think they're all looking at you. And they may be right, too.

Roger Marsh: Sure, that's what it feels like, yeah.

Jackie M. Baker: But that's what it feels like. And if it's irrational or not, but it's your feelings. But I remember I was leading a girls group. Um I was mentoring some high school girls and the idea was I was going to go with them for four years, you know. And they were sophomores. And so we met every week at my house, pizza, Bible study, you know, just chatting. And I loved them. But after my son died, um I couldn't I couldn't do it, of course. And so it was like three months and I I was feeling guilty cuz I wasn't meeting with my girls and And I I went to my the youth pastor Scotty and I'm like Scotty, I can't do this.

And I just assumed he would say oh, totally understand. I said I haven't even done a Bible study. I can't do this. He goes that's okay. He goes you need to let them see you grieve. And he said just So he challenged me just to let them live see my life and not avoid my life. And so I did that. And so we did not do Bible study for two years. We didn't. I mean, we talk about Sunday and stuff, but they just come they just came and hung out with me. You know, we ate pizza, we cried cuz they knew I was I mean, I was hurting, you know.

And you know, they were 15 and 16 going through their own stuff. But I think it gave them you know, it gave them permission to grieve and talk and um And I still meet with those girls. It's just very sweet, you know, all these years later for Yeah. Mm.

Roger Marsh: Yeah. Well, I love the fact, too, that you became a Bible that they could read in terms of not necessarily one that you all got together and read, you know, verses and memorized and what is Jesus saying here and that, which is all very important. You're in a It seems like in a good place to help others go through this, too. Was there a turning point where you said hey, this doesn't have to be just kind of a dark cloud hanging over our home, but we can be filled with hope in spite of what we went through?

Jackie M. Baker: Right. And yeah, and that is so true cuz I just keep clinging to Jesus. And I kept saying you know, we're just going through the motions, going through the You know, you fake it till you make it. I didn't want to read my Bible, but I listened to my Bible every day. I I would walk. And I'm I'm like did I hear it? I'm like I just hoped that the Holy Spirit would permeate through you know, my foggy brain and just bathe You know, I just bathed myself in the word every day. Um And so I would take my dog for a walk and um I just kept exercising.

I just kept the same routine. You know, I said I would go to church, but I would hide in the corner cuz I needed to go to church, you know. I didn't want to So I'd go to the early service where all the elderly people are, you know, and no one knew me and And I I'd hide out and cry cuz I knew I needed to be in the presence of the Lord. So I It was a work. It was a work, you know. And And one thing in my research that that I I I knew it intuitively, it's like suicidal grief lasts a lot longer.

It's not a one year and done like some people think. You're like oh, I should be good. It can be five, seven, nine years. It's you know, my daughter is still struggling, you know. And you know, nine years later I mean, she she misses her brother, you know. I mean, I miss my son, but it was probably year seven, you know. We we said year seven I went oh, I kind of feel normal again or whatever that new normal is. It's a new normal. Right. But I I felt like I had had year of jubilee.

It was kind of like the 70 year, you know. And I I felt that was from the Lord, too, for me. It's like wow. I felt a peace about me that I hadn't felt in a long time. So that gave me started giving me hope and I could see it. But I also had to learn that grief is not linear. It It can come. That's why I call it messy morning because it's messy. You know, one day you're fine and then things happen on it. We call them triggers, you know, unexpectedly and like But year two, it's like you come out of the fog.

You start and you're like I I think it it For me, it was worse because I think that numbness went away and you start feeling the things that I think God protected me from. I think a lot of us in that fog. And then then you have to start dealing with the that grief in a different way cuz you're you know, people go away, the you know, the meals aren't coming. People are living their lives.

Roger Marsh: Right. Right.

Jackie M. Baker: And And it's not that they've forgotten and maybe they have, but that's not their responsibility, is it? To You know, it's we want them to remember. But that's why I just keep talking about my boy. You know, I want other people to talk about my boy cuz he's more than just I always say I wrote a chapter you know, more than a statistic. He's more than what he what he did, you know. And so I I want people to remember that about him.

Roger Marsh: Yeah. Jackie M. Baker is my guest today here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. The book is called Messy Morning, Hope for Mothers Grieving the Loss of a Child by Suicide. The link for the book is up at drjamesdobson.org. Let's talk about that faith component because that is probably become one of the most hotly debated issues in the last four or five years in the church is there are more people who are feeling this way. There are more young people who are thinking maybe I'd be better off any number of reasons why they're thinking that being unalive as they say is better than being alive.

But then there's the faith component and a lot of people How have you and Steve and Isabella kind of worked your way through that in terms of Well, Sebastian loved the Lord. Okay. So what did that mean for you guys then when you're saying yeah, he loved the Lord, but he called his own number at that point?

Jackie M. Baker: Mm. It's a very complex topic.

Roger Marsh: Yeah, how how have you guys worked How have you guys worked through that because I'm sure there are a lot of people are saying well, he said he was a Christian, but there 's no way because this is what I believe. And we know it's way more nuanced than that.

Jackie M. Baker: Right. It's It is way more nuanced. In fact, I had someone that where they're like well, suicide is a sin. Don't you believe that? And I'm like I go but but is that the point right now? Does that mean anything in in this whole scenario? You know, you That is not going to help a person who's struggling with mental illness that by telling them that suicide is sin, that is not going to keep someone from not taking their life. In fact, they feel more guilt and more shame because they're thinking those things and they have no sense of forgiveness or hope from a well meaning person who who they themselves either one of them never struggled with that, so they don't understand.

And so we yeah, we struggled with that a lot. I remember after Sebastian died, you know, we all grieve in different ways. You know, I mean, I was I have a chapter is called grief would be easier if it was just me. You know, just in a selfish kind of Yeah, cuz cuz you know, me I wanted to clean out his room and get rid of everything and just put it all away. My husband didn't want to He wanted to close the door and pretend it wasn't there. And my daughter wanted to wear all of her brother's clothes.

And she still does. And But in it, you know, he had his diaries and he wrote a lot about his mental health and grief. I I cannot look at those. But my daughter freely can look at those. And she's like mom, I just want you to know that he loved Jesus so much. She said you know, but he was broken like we're all broken. And sometimes in our brokenness, we do things, you know, we lose sight of the hope that's in us because we we can't see it. And it's nothing Is that a sin? I just think no, that's a brokenness, isn't it?

But there is nothing that can separate us from God's love. And so clinging to that has been so helpful for us that we just know that Sebastian is healed and whole and in the presence of Jesus. And so that's what I'd love to tell people. They're like well, don't you miss your son? Of course I miss my son. And they go don't you want him back? And I would hear this from moms. I'm like yeah, but I don't want him back the way he was. Yeah. I want him back the way he is now. And of course he doesn't want me cuz I'm I'm broken still.

You know, he's good, you know. You know. So I have to cling to that. I mean, one day yeah, I'm going to you know, be in God's presence. And I remember before that I can't wait to see Jesus. No, I would say oh, I just want to see Sebastian. I'm like wait a minute. No, I want to see Jesus. And Sebastian will be there. But I had a shift. There had to be a that shift in there cuz I had lost sight of that. And now it's like you know what? When it's my time and you know, I remember cuz that was my husband's thing I just want to be with the Lord.

And I I felt guilty cuz I was like you know what? But it's not my time. God wants me here to do the work he has put before me. And I I need to cling to that that I'm like this is where I am right now. So but yeah, but everything again, we just had to keep clinging to Jesus and just being in his word and so I lived in the Psalms for like seven years. That was the only scripture I could read.

Roger Marsh: It's powerful to have that kind of reminder that yes, obviously Sebastian lived here. He is part of our family. He's with the Lord now, but his life took a very unfortunate turn that got him to where he is. Jackie, talk now if you would for the mom who's listening to us who says okay, um this was my story and you're giving me a lot of help. And trust me when you were talking about being the woman who went to the early service where the elderly people were and sat in the back corner and cried, trust me in my pastoral ministry days, I saw you every single Sunday because you think you're just kind of hiding out.

It's like wait, why is why is she here at this service and why is she sitting in the Okay, there's something there's something going on. But that's okay because your pastor saw you, too, and God saw you obviously. And And that's the case. But as you when you were moving forward, there was a point where you needed to grieve. Obviously in the grieving process is a process. But what does a mom do in those days, in those weeks, those months, even in the first couple of years after suicide impacts a home? What do you recommend that she do?

Jackie M. Baker: Well, um the uh the big thing is I want to say you know, isolation is good, but you you need your people. You've got to have your safe people. And I say safe people, the ones that I mean, I had some girlfriends. We've been prayer partners for years. So I for like two or three years, I would cry every time we got together. So you need those safe people to lament with and who who are walking alongside you. I always think of you know, it's like Job's friends before they opened up their mouth because they sat beside him, right?

And I think it provided a comfort for him. Then they changed. But uh but I always just like yeah, be present. You need You need safe people. And if it's with a support group, a grief group, um I'm a member of Grief Share. I'm a Grief Share leader. Um it can be really really helpful. It's really hard to find suicide grief groups. A lot of people won't go to them. And then if you're that person like me, I didn't want to come alongside other moms, but I remember a few months after I'd lost Sebastian, a friend of mine had lost her husband and son in a tragic accident and she wanted me to meet with her.

And I'm like I can't do this, Lord. And then I I did. Again, I was being obedient. And we cried together for at least two or three years. And we're really really good friends still. You know, we we get together. We We help lead a Grief Share group. But that was years of that doing that together, you know, um sharing our losses. Other things mom know that there is hope that you are not alone. A lot of moms thinking nobody understands what they're going through. And I just want to say that is not true. That's I call these are the the lies that moms believe.

49,000 um people died by suicide in 2024 in the United States. So there's a 49,000 moms. You're not alone. And so finding those safe people You know, calling the church. If the church isn't helpful, go to another church. I can't control my child. I mean, you can do all those things and put all those safeguards in place, but but they have a free will of their own and they're going to make choices, you know, whether we like it or not. We can't always control our kids, especially when they're We have to let them go. It's hard to let go and to let God, you know, uh you know, be in control.

And so that's the other thing is you just have to learn you've got to let it go and cuz otherwise it's just going to hold you hostage, you know. And And then there is hope in in in Christ and in just claiming on those scriptures and I said just reading and listening to the Bible you you know, there is hope.

Roger Marsh: Jackie M. Baker, the book is called Messy Morning, Hope for Mothers Grieving the Loss of a Child by Suicide. Uh it's a book that we highly recommend here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. And we have it linked up at drjamesdobson.org. Jackie, thank you for your vulnerability and sharing with moms and dads um who might have gone through this or who may be potentially needing this resource at some point and they don't realize it yet. Thank you for putting this together and for having such a great spirit about helping people who've gone through this.

We appreciate your ministry and grateful to get to know you here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk today. Thanks for being with us.

Jackie M. Baker: Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Roger Marsh: Well, we hope you appreciated the thoughts and sentiments that Jackie M. Baker shared today on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. Our conversation based on her book called Messy Morning, Hope for Mothers Grieving the Loss of a Child by Suicide. I'm Roger Marsh. And if you miss part one of this broadcast or if you'd like to share today's program with someone who would really be encouraged by it, you'll find parts one and two at drjamesdobson.org. And if it's easier, just type in jdfi.org. It's the same website. One thing that really stood out to me during today's broadcast is how Jackie and her husband Steve came through this together instead of letting their grief drive a wedge between them.

They kept praying together every day. They kept a standing date night and they kept their marriage a priority. And if you want to work on developing that same closeness in your own marriage here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, we've created a free 10 day marriage series grounded in a simple, time tested truth, the husband and wife who pray together, stay together. Over 10 days, you'll receive practical faith filled encouragement delivered right to your inbox to help you and your spouse grow closer to God and to each other. Now to get started, simply go to drjamesdobson.org and search for that title, the 10 day marriage series.

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Be sure to tune in again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.