Family Talk

Dr. James Dobson: Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It’s a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute, supported by listeners just like you. I’m Dr. James Dobson, and I’m thrilled that you’ve joined us.

Roger Marsh: Welcome back to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. Have you ever wondered what it's like to be a Christian in Washington, DC, to work in the corridors of power while staying true to your faith?

On the last edition of Family Talk, we met Mark Johansen, whose decades in military service took him from the Air Force Academy to the Pentagon. But his real story isn't about his impressive career. It's about bringing Jesus into every room he entered, even when that meant standing alone.

On today's edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, Gary Bauer, our Senior Vice President of Public Policy here at the JDFI, will continue his conversation with Mark Johansen. Mark's going to share about meeting his wife, Sherry, at a wedding reception with possibly the worst opening line you've ever heard. This is going to be great.

And yet, God used that awkward moment to launch what became a 45-year marriage that would inspire everyone around them. You'll also hear how they navigated seasons of heartbreak together, always keeping their faith at the center. Mark and Sherry's story is a beautiful reminder of God's faithfulness through every season of life. Now let's rejoin Gary Bauer and Mark Johansen on today's edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.

Gary Bauer: So, Mark, here we are for day two of telling your great story of service in government in incredible positions, but also your service to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. We're glad you could be here again today.

Mark Johansen: I'm glad to be here as well, and especially to talk about the pleasure and privilege of serving the Lord within government. I think we've got some interesting stories to talk about.

Gary Bauer: No question about it. So let's get right into it. Is my recollection correct that at the Air Force Academy, is that when you first met your lovely wife?

Mark Johansen: No, actually not. I am glad I didn't meet her while I was going to the Academy because one of the things she told me later, after we got engaged, was that she had no interest in cadets. She wanted nothing to do with the military. Love and marriage snuck up on us because we both thought we were dating, and she's not interested in a military person, and I'm not sure I want to get married yet. The Lord had other plans for us.

Gary Bauer: Tell us about that because it was at a wedding reception, right?

Mark Johansen: Yes, it was something else. I had returned from Thule, Greenland, spending a year up there on remote. Another miracle that the Lord provided was that I ran into a retired Colonel who had flown for my dad, Joe Gines. He was a wonderful person. I just happened to run into him there in Colorado Springs, and he said, "Why don't you come to my wedding reception?"

I said, "What?" And he said, "Yeah, I'm getting married again because I lost my wife probably five or six years before." He said, "I'm marrying a lady who lost her husband." I said, "Okay, fine." And then he went on to say, "Oh yeah, there's going to be some lovely ladies there." I said, "Well, I'll be there."

Gary Bauer: He knew exactly what to tell you to get you to that wedding reception.

Mark Johansen: If you think about it, where do you meet people that tend to be somebody decent to meet? A wedding reception would be one of those normally.

I went to the wedding reception, and I'm hanging with Joe. We're talking, and I'm standing by him. I'm looking around the room, and I saw this just gorgeous blonde angel with a blue dress on, blue eyes. I'm thinking, "Oh my gosh, how do I get to meet her? How do I get to meet her?"

As I told you, I was a bit of an introvert. The next thing I know, she's coming straight across the room, heading towards Joe and myself because I'm maybe five or six feet from him. She comes right up to Joe, and she says, "Joe, who does this man belong to?"

Fortunately, my brain worked quickly, and I said, "Well, it could be you if you play your cards right."

Gary Bauer: Mark, if you would have run that by me before you said it, I could have told you that was not the right approach.

Mark Johansen: Well, you knew Sherry. She looked at me with a withering glance, and I'm thinking, "Oh, I blew this." I was trying to be cute or funny.

Gary Bauer: How long was it from that rather unusual first exchange to when you were having your own wedding reception?

Mark Johansen: It was about a year. We dated a year because she was kind of standoffish at first. The first thing that we did after she said yes was that we both got down on our knees and we prayed to the Lord. We said, "God, we don't know what we're doing. This marriage is in Your hands. Our lives are in Your hands. We want to follow You. Please guide us in everything that we do."

Gary Bauer: You know, Mark, so many marriages today, God is nowhere in the ceremony. In every wedding that is really a wedding, there are three entities involved: a man, a woman, and God that is overlooking this covenant between them and that their marriage ought to depend on. The fact that that doesn't happen these days is, I think, another indication of how deep the trouble is that the country has.

Mark Johansen: Amen. That's what you and Dr. Dobson have focused on for years. The strength of the family is the underlying strength of our nation, of the world.

Gary Bauer: So you're starting out. Isn't this around the time then that Dr. Dobson comes into your lives?

Mark Johansen: Absolutely. In 1979, we were just married, and then we got our roots ripped up because we were sent to Omaha, Nebraska. Especially for Sherry because she had her mom and her sisters in Colorado, and here she was important in the courthouse. Now she's a military wife, and we're going out into the midst of Nebraska. Nothing against Nebraska, but she wasn't prepared for that.

It turned out to be a great blessing. Once again, the Lord provided. It was the time that we were refined in the fire as a young married couple. I was thrown into a new job. I was put on the Inspector General team. We were traveling every other week for maybe two weeks.

I was gone two-thirds of the time. I'd be in Turkey, in Greece. You name it, we were going all over the place. It was the Strategic Air Command Inspector General. We were doing the northern tier of the missile folks in North Dakota, etc., and then overseas with the space folks.

The first thing I found out was these men, when we get on this C-141 and fly overseas, they don't seem to have the same perspective I do on marriage or a walk with the Lord. They're taking their wedding rings off. The first thing they want to do is find the nearest bar and where they can chase women when we land.

I decided right there and then I needed to be careful because I didn't want to be cocooned off as this radical Christian goody-two-shoes. I always tried to walk with them. We'd go to the bar, and I'd spend maybe 30 or 45 minutes, and then when they started losing it, I'd get out of there.

For example, in Athens, I loved it because I went up to the Parthenon, and then I went on Paul's trail to Mars Hill and the Areopagus. It was interesting because slowly but surely, some of these other men started following me and saying, "Oh, you seem to know your history. Could you take us along, too?"

I could preach to them, and they didn't even know it. I'd say, "You know, the Apostle Paul stood right here. He's talking about the unknown God, and he's talking to these folks that knew Socrates and Aristotle and all of this great philosophy, and then he's telling them, 'Hey, you're a bit wrong here. Let me tell you about the true God, the one true God. There's one, and it ain't Zeus.'"

Gary Bauer: Often, the best presentation of the Gospel is just letting people see us live our lives. That's what you were doing.

Mark Johansen: But I tried, like I said, it was a balance because I knew that if I went too far in rejecting them, pointing the finger, and saying what they did was wrong. If they asked me, I would tell them why I didn't think it was a good idea.

Slowly but surely, these folks started coming to me and asking me advice, and they're sharing situations with their marriages and their kids. I became the traveling chaplain for that group. Sherry was in the same situation. The men would leave, and the women would all get together and say, "Oh, let's go to this bar, let's go dancing, let's do this or that." They took their wedding rings off.

Sherry, like I did, tried to hang in for a little bit, and then she would leave when it started getting a little untoward. But the women started coming to her because they admired the marriage we had. They started talking to her, and she got to bring them to the chapel and just feed into their lives. It was a time of growth for us, for our marriage, and for us to stand strong with the challenge.

Gary Bauer: Did Sherry start listening to Dr. Dobson on the radio?

Mark Johansen: Yes, absolutely. Let me get back to Dr. Dobson. Our founder and Gary Bauer's longtime friend. I'm sorry, I went down a little bit down the rabbit hole, but that certainly feeds back into Dr. Dobson because we didn't have this wisdom naturally. What we're talking to these wives and husbands are things that we're hearing from Dr. Dobson. We're applying it to our lives together as married, and then we're sharing it with these other men and women.

Gary Bauer: There's so much more we could talk about regarding your government service and you've served a number of presidents and so forth. I want to be sure we have time to deal with the fact that you and Sherry found each other. You were each the love of your lives, and you were together for 45 years. But an event happens fairly early on—her illness. Tell us what happened.

Mark Johansen: The last 20 years before she passed, she got breast cancer. It would go into remission and then it would move and pop out again after about five years. So we went through four bouts of five years, and we had three chemos and four radiations. She had stuff cut off of her, losing body parts as we're going through this.

Through it all, she was focused. She taught this class for 25-plus years at our church. It became the largest women's class there, 85 women usually as an average. She's putting her life into that. Every day I'd get up, she would be already in the Word. She worked really hard on teaching. She wanted to impart the Word the best way she could, and she was very talented at that.

This class was tremendous. She would pick out ladies, and I got all kinds of cards from ladies all over the world, actually, because there were a lot of military families, and they'd gone through her class at some point. They remembered her, and then they heard about her passing.

I got the sweetest notes saying, "Sherry didn't just teach. She was a wonderful teacher, but she put into our lives, and this is what she did for me and my husband, and me and my kids. She would come over, and I felt like her focus was on me. She'd find out what's going on, and she'd pour her life into mine."

Gary Bauer: That's amazing that she's having this struggle in her own life, and yet she's pouring herself out to help the lowest of the low.

Mark Johansen: That was number one. I actually was number two there because it was: Serve God and these ladies. That's the number one thing I want to do, and then I get to my family. And you know, I agree that God's first. She felt that the way she was serving God was with those ladies, that flock.

Another lady wrote and said she was so good at figuring out our capabilities and our talents and pulling them out of us. This lady said, "I was always scared to speak, and I was always scared to tell people what to do." Sherry came over one day and said, "I want you to be the table leader for these 10 people."

The lady said back to Sherry, "I can't do that. I can't do that." Sherry said, "Yes, you can, and we're going to work together, and you're going to do it." Then the lady turned into a great leader, and she said, "I'm so grateful because I didn't see that in myself, and she did."

Gary Bauer: So, Mark, I know obviously she was being treated, and of course you all are faithfully praying. During these periods of remission, did you have a reasonable expectation that maybe the battle had been won?

Mark Johansen: Yes. In fact, I believed until the last minute that she passed that the Lord was going to provide a miracle. I prayed that way. I said, "Lord, I know we're going through this, but I also know that You provide miraculous healing, and I'm praying that that's what You'll decide to do."

She was that way, too. It was kind of a sine wave. We'd go up, and she was better, and then all of a sudden we'd come down in the valley, and she could hardly walk, and then we'd go up again.

Michelle was a great blessing because as a doctor, she really helped. She was right there with her mom, and she helped me a lot in the hospital. It's amazing how quickly they're ready to say, "Go home and die." We were at a good hospital, but it seems like they're ready to give up. As a Christian, you don't give up until the Lord says, "Okay, it's your time," and you go, "Yes, sir. We're ready." But they're ready to throw you under the bus in some ways.

Gary Bauer: So you had the one daughter, and now you've got a granddaughter. Does she share part of your wife's name?

Mark Johansen: Yes, absolutely. It's Eve Sherry. So Sherry is her middle name. I lost Sherry, and of course, the first part of that, I still cry. I think I cry every day at some point. I think of something, I see something, I watch a romantic movie, and then I think of when we had a situation similar.

Gary Bauer: Of course, our president, Bart Brock, lost his wife and tells of that.

Mark Johansen: I read his pamphlet, and actually, it was very helpful. His situation definitely was a bit different, but there were a lot of gems in there that really applied to me. It helped me come to the point where I started saying, "God, thank you for 45 wonderful years."

Reading Bart's pamphlet, as you brought up, and what he went through, I saw a lot of things in there, and it turned me around. Every morning I get up, as soon as my feet hit the floor, I thank God. I thank God for the 45 years. I thank God for Sherry. I thank God for the marriage that we had in being man and wife and also parents to Michelle, and what a wonderful, wonderful situation it was.

It wasn't perfect. Yeah, we had some pretty good knockdown arguments occasionally. Anybody that says they don't, they're lying because we're human beings. But I usually realized that she was right when we had the arguments, and later I'd have to come back and say, "Um, you were right. I was wrong."

Gary Bauer: As we're getting close to the end of our two days together, was there something else you wanted to share? You mentioned a detail that you wanted to share.

Mark Johansen: The Lord has spoken to me directly three times in my life. Maybe speaking is not the right word because I know that some pastors would say, "What are you talking about? This doesn't happen." But I've got to share it from my heart.

He showed me. He gave me a dream. Something rolled across the road which was a certain color, which indicated you need to go to this school because it was the school colors. Can you believe that? We're trying to decide on a school, and this ball comes rolling across the road, and it's the school colors, and they're unusual. I said, "Oh, well, I guess you're supposed to go to that school, hon."

The Lord gave me this dream that was incredible. This feeds into how I came to the point of saying, "God, thank you. Thank you for Sherry. Thank you for the 45 years. I'm grateful for that," and move a bit on from my "Why? Why did I lose her?"

It was clear as a bell. I remember every stitch of it. It was like watching a high-definition movie. I'm on a train. I'm on a steam engine, one of those old coal-fired trains. Beautiful train, and I'm in this beautiful car as if a high-class person would own this car from the railroad baron type days.

I'm alone. I'm all alone. Nobody else is in there, but I feel peace. I don't know why, because I have this unusual situation where I'm feeling what I feel in the car, and I'm up above watching this. I've got two minds at the same time. It's hard to explain.

I have a bunch of luggage in the overhead. The train's going on. I'm looking out the window. It's gorgeous. It's Rocky Mountains, essentially, streams, and just beautiful Colorado-type scenery. It slows down, and I have no clue where I'm at or where I'm going.

I gather my luggage, and it's kind of unwieldy. I step down through the door of the car, and then I'm down on the ground, and I'm still looking down because I'm trying not to drop my luggage. I really haven't looked up or around. I'm looking down, and I see two feet, and they're just brilliant. They're shiny. It's just unbelievably brilliant.

I drop my luggage, and I look up, and I'm looking at this person that the face is just unbelievable. That's the Lord. He says, in this voice which is just peaceful, authoritative, it's the most beautiful voice you've ever heard. It just gives me absolute peace. I'm not worried at all.

He says, "You don't really need that stuff here." I'm looking down at my luggage and thinking, "Oh." And then I look around, and here's this beautiful crystal clear lake, and I look across to the other shore, and there's people as far as the eye can see.

Right in the front is Sherry. She's jumping up and down. She's got this huge smile, and she's saying, "Oh, hon. Oh, hon. It's so good to see you." And then that was the end of the dream. After that, I just said, "Thank you, God. You gave me a good input on that."

Gary Bauer: That's a beautiful story, Mark. Thank you for sharing that with us. You know, that's what we've been promised. You were at Dr. Dobson's memorial service, and a number of us pointed out to Dr. Dobson's family, "You'll see him again." And we will see our loved ones again. The Scripture is very clear about that.

Well, Mark, you have fought the good fight. You've finished the race in many ways. You've never abandoned your faith.

Mark Johansen: I wouldn't say I've finished the race. I'm still running.

Gary Bauer: What I mean is we're near the end of two shows, Mark. But God has put you in a number of very important places, and you've always brought the cross of Jesus with you when you've been in those places. We deeply appreciate your partnership and support for the James Dobson Family Institute over the years. You've supported my work with the groups I have here in Washington, DC. You are to us definitely an everyday hero, although we don't run across people like you every day.

We're so glad to be able to spend some time these last two days for you to share your story with us and to tell us about your lovely wife so that I think people will feel like they know her. So thank you, Mark. We appreciate all that you've done.

Mark Johansen: Thank you, Gary. Thank you for all that you've done in the same place. You've always stood for integrity and for the Lord. Thank you so much for your leadership.

Roger Marsh: On today's edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, we heard part two of Gary Bauer's conversation with Mark Johansen, an everyday hero in every sense of the word, who's been sharing his testimony about seeing God in space and serving Him on Capitol Hill. If you'd like to hear today's program again or go back and listen to part one as well, you'll find parts one and two at JDFI.net.

During the past half hour, we've heard about Mark and Sherry Johansen's 45-year marriage. It didn't just happen by accident. It took commitment, faith, and understanding. That's why I want to share with you about a free resource that Dr. Dobson prepared for couples to help them strengthen marriages. It's called "The Undeniable Differences Between Husbands and Wives."

Drawing from Dr. Dobson's decades of research and counseling, this digital guide explores why men and women approach life so differently. You'll discover practical insights about communication, expectations, and what makes your spouse tick. Best of all, understanding these differences can help you appreciate each other rather than simply tolerating the differences. You can download this free resource when you go to JDFI.net and search for that title, "The Undeniable Differences Between Husbands and Wives." Again, it's a free download available to you exclusively at JDFI.net.

Every day at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, we're reaching families who need biblical wisdom for their marriages, their parenting, and their faith. Your gift of any amount directly supports these broadcasts and helps us continue sharing life-changing biblical truth with families who need it most. To make a secure donation, go to JDFI.net. That's JDFI.net.

I'm Roger Marsh and from all of us here at Family Talk and the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you can still trust for the family you love.

This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.