Family Talk

Dr. James Dobson: Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute, supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson, and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.

Roger Marsh: Well, welcome to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. Every January, Christians all over the country celebrate something known as Sanctity of Human Life Month. We celebrate it here at the James Dobson Family Institute. We dedicate this month to defending and protecting the most vulnerable among us.

On today's edition of Family Talk, we're going to share a powerful conversation from our broadcast archives that goes all the way back to featuring Dr. Dobson having a conversation with three women who were on the front lines of the pro-life movement in its infancy: Dr. Julie Parton, a pregnancy resource ministry director, along with Darlene Norberg, former director of the Dallas Pregnancy Resource Center—she would later become a consultant for the Option Ultrasound Program—and Tammy Shafer, who served as director of patient care at Choices Medical Clinic in Wichita, Kansas.

The discussion is going to center on the power of ultrasound technology, not just for tracking the health and growth of babies in the womb, but also as a life-saving tool. Statistics show that a high percentage of women, between 80 and 90 percent, once they see the ultrasound of their pre-born child, make the decision to carry that pregnancy to term. They know that if an expectant mother sees a picture, that ultrasound sonogram picture of her child in the womb, as much as 90 percent of the time, that woman will choose life for her child.

The second reason why this program is so important to us is that Dr. James Dobson was the driving force behind recognizing Sanctity of Life Month in the first place, all the way back in the 1980s. And so now when you see what happens with ultrasound technology and see the way the abortion industry fights against it, we know that Dr. Dobson was a catalyst for bringing that change to the public square.

During the next half hour, you're also going to hear Dr. Dobson's former co-host, John Fuller, as part of this conversation as well. The stories you're about to hear remind us why this battle for life matters so deeply to all of us, but especially to our founder and chairman. And without further ado now, let's hear Dr. James Dobson.

Dr. James Dobson: This outreach to babies and to mothers on behalf of their babies concerns all of us a great deal. Tammy, tell us what it is.

Tammy Shafer: Sure. Choices Medical Clinic is right next door to Dr. George Tiller, the internationally known late-term abortionist. We're divided by a fence only, and we see people from all over the country coming into Wichita to abort their babies.

Dr. James Dobson: And many of them in late term.

Tammy Shafer: He starts his late-term procedures on Tuesdays, so on Tuesdays, we see license plates from all over the country and women with protruding bellies walking in.

Dr. James Dobson: That must break your heart. And some of them walk across that parking lot and come to Choices. Why do they do that?

Tammy Shafer: Well, probably several reasons. One probably being that we have a banner that faces his parking lot that says "Free Ultrasounds Today." That brings a lot of them over. They have to pay for an ultrasound there. Plus the fact that we've had a couple that have come over just because they paid him for one, but his sonographer would not show them the screen. See, they have it figured out over there; they won't show them the screen because then they'll see it's a baby and they may walk out.

We had one particularly that stands out in my mind that came in from out of town to go have an abortion at his clinic. She decided to come to us first because she saw us when she was driving around trying to figure out where the clinic was. She came to Choices and I counseled her and then we did a sonogram.

She left Choices Medical Clinic 15 minutes before her scheduled appointment time with Dr. Tiller. She still had not made a decision for life, and I came out just dragging and just about bawling. One of the counselors, Diane, said, "Well, Tammy, you did everything you could short of laying on the floor and holding on to her ankles." I said, "Well, is that legal?"

But the next morning, she called me. I said, "Well, how did everything go yesterday?" She said, "Well, actually, it went well." I said, "Well, how are you doing?" She said, "Well, I know this sounds really silly, but I was over there and I was in the lab having some blood drawn, and there was a poster of a koala bear hanging on a tree. She said, "And it reminded me of the sonogram you had shown me and that my baby was holding on for dear life, so I got up and walked out."

And we were so excited. I thought, "You know, God can use a koala bear poster."

Dr. James Dobson: How many sonograms have you done?

Tammy Shafer: Approximately 3,000.

Dr. James Dobson: My goodness. You're a nurse, aren't you?

Tammy Shafer: Yes.

Dr. James Dobson: Does it still give you a thrill to see that baby?

Tammy Shafer: Oh, yeah. It does. They're amazing. They do funny things. They all have their own personalities and everything already in utero. You can tell who they look like. Not all babies look alike in utero, and I look at some of the pictures and you can tell exactly who they're going to look like. It's amazing. But they suck their thumbs, they swallow, I even see them empty their bladders, and that always freaks us out. They kick around and move around and scrunch their eyebrows and smile and do all kinds of things in there that just—it's amazing every time.

Dr. James Dobson: It's meaningless protoplasm, right? Isn't that what they told us? In the beginning, that's what they said. Every child a wanted child. Once those babies are born, they're wanted.

Tammy Shafer: Oh yeah, definitely. I think that when you couple the ultrasound with materials that you share with them in the counseling room, it just drives home what they just learned in the counseling room a few minutes before and it puts it all together and they're like, "Wow."

Dr. James Dobson: Darlene, I mentioned earlier that this is not an easy assignment. There's a lot of stress associated with it, a lot of disappointment, a lot of exhilaration too. What has been your experience in those 10 years?

Darlene Norberg: It has been the most life-changing 10 years and—not my own life—watching other lives change. Probably the most exciting thing is when we added ultrasound. We did that back in '98. We were actually the sixth full-time medical clinic in a pregnancy resource center in the nation.

Watching how that changed the dynamics of our services and the dynamics of women coming in and what we were able to offer. When these women would see their babies on the screen, you would see an automatic almost a bond where they wanted to bond but sometimes they wouldn't because they were concerned about "If I bond, then do I abort?" But the personal stories, that's what really touches your heart. You come to really, in just an hour's time, 30 minutes' time, just really love these women and their partners who come in.

Dr. James Dobson: And many of them fall in love with those babies too, don't they? Isn't it amazing that you can see the temperament and the personality of a baby through a sonogram? Can you really do that?

Darlene Norberg: It is so exciting. The nurses who do this all the time are able to clue in. It's so funny if the baby's asleep and they'll take the transducer and just kind of jiggle the mom's tummy and say, "Come on, wake up, wake up." It's amazing how women who have a positive test and know that they're pregnant can actually put aside realizing—and a client story to share with you is my own personal involvement with a client was a young woman who was a sophomore in college and knew that she was pregnant but just totally put it out of her mind. Didn't share it with anybody other than the young man, the father of the baby, and waited nearly five months before she told her mom and dad.

Dr. James Dobson: Was she scared?

Darlene Norberg: She was scared. But what she told her parents later was that she could make her mom and dad angry about different things, but to disappoint them was one of the hardest things for her to face. She finally, after about five months and completely no medical care, nothing, and at that point would have been feeling the baby move, and just felt that she just had to finally call and tell Mom. She called her mother one night and her mom just sensed that there was something going on, that there was something wrong. She said, "You know, things are real quiet here in the house and I'm just going to sit here and tell me what's going on." And that's when my daughter—my daughter.

Dr. James Dobson: You are now the grandmother of that child?

Darlene Norberg: I am. My daughter called me that night and she said, "I knew something was going on." And I said, "Sweetheart, there's nothing going on at the house. Dad's gone; Dad's at Bible study. And I'm just going to sit here and I am going to be still because I know there's something that you need to tell me." And two very, very long minutes went by. And Amanda, my daughter, she said, "Mom." And I said, "What?" She said, "Mom, I'm pregnant." And I said, "I know. I know. I want you to come home. We're going to work through this. We're going to be fine. Come on home."

She was at her apartment, so she came home. That night, we promptly took her to our medical clinic and had an ultrasound. But it was a very different experience for me because I had always stood there as that innocent bystander wanting that mom to bond with that baby, and all of a sudden, I'm seeing a baby within my baby. It was the most unusual experience in my life.

But the ultrasound, what it did for my daughter personally was up until that time, Amanda should have been feeling Kinsey, our little granddaughter, move within her womb, but she had put it so out of her mind that she didn't feel any movement. She said, "Mom, the night that you did the ultrasound, when I went back to my bed that night and lay down, I felt her move for the first time." And it's just amazing what our minds can do.

Dr. James Dobson: Were the tears flowing?

Darlene Norberg: Oh my goodness, gracious. It was just a mixture of emotions that you just can't begin to imagine until you walk through it. Ended up that Amanda had hypertension and we had a very early little girl who was born. Amanda was on bed rest, had to quit her job because she was a sophomore in college and decided not to go back to school, got a job, had to quit her job, came home, moved back in with us, was on bed rest, and soon was in the hospital on bed rest.

And at 32 weeks, Kinsey was born, three pounds, 13 ounces. Precious, precious little girl. And they gave me the privilege of being there, watching my granddaughter be born. And the wonderful redeeming part—so many redeeming parts to this story—but Chris, our son-in-law now, was incredible support to her. We watched him come over at night where we hadn't really known him very much at all. He'd come over at night after Amanda had been in bed or lying on the couch all day long; he would rub her ankles. We got to see him love her and support her and encourage her.

Dr. James Dobson: Julie, I want you to elaborate on what we're up to here. We came to our Board of Directors, and especially Don Hodel, our president here—I'm now Chairman of the Board and I'm no longer President, but we together came to the Board and we said, "We have an opportunity now to save babies, lots of babies, if we can put these ultrasound machines in the various clinics, as many as we possibly can."

This will be a very expensive project and it's one that involves not only machines, but training, and you're going from a non-medical to a medical setting. It involves physicians, and it involves maintenance and insurance and all kinds of things associated with that. We presented that to our Board. We can sometimes talk for four hours about something new. I mean to tell you, it was lightning and they said, "Let's do it." And we're off and running, right Julie?

Julie Parton: Well, it truly is exciting. I know we overuse that word, but that's just how everyone feels about it. What's been really neat is to see the centers that have said, "Oh my goodness, we've been wanting to do this for a long time and we just didn't have the money," or "We've been wanting to do this and our Board was reluctant but now realizing that we're ready to go back and look at that again."

So I think there are a lot of ramifications of this that, besides just helping centers purchase machines, there are roughly 2,300 pregnancy centers in the United States, and our best estimate is 350 are medical. So what we want to see is those who want to add medical services, we want to be able to empower them to do that.

Darlene Norberg: By "medical facility," you mean they are equipped with an ultrasound machine so that they can provide sonograms as you and Tammy have shared, that can make all the difference.

Julie Parton: Exactly. You know how all of these years, men have been told, "It's a woman's body, it's a woman's choice, men you're supposed to just stay out of it and say things like, 'Well, whatever you want, dear, I'll support you in this.'" And I have seen so many, just in the phone calls that I've had along the lines that you were talking about, so many men that see this as something that they can do, a way that they can get involved because they can give money, or they can help in some other way to make this a reality.

I think it is going to help—I hate to use the word "liberate," but "empower" maybe is a better word—to help empower men to understand, "I may not can counsel at a pregnancy resource center because it's women clients, you need women counselors and so on and so forth, but I can sure help make that ultrasound capability come about."

Dr. James Dobson: Do you find that it has an emotional impact on men as well as women to see that baby? I've got to tell you, you all did a demonstration for 1,500 people in our chapeteria—we have a chapel service once a month. Sequestered behind a screen was a young woman who participated in an ultrasound. She is pregnant. Her baby was how far along, Julie?

Julie Parton: 17 weeks.

Dr. James Dobson: 17 weeks and quite active at that. We all saw that baby live right there on the screen, cavorting and turning, twisting and turning, and sucking his thumb. It got to me, John.

John Fuller: It was an emotional moment. We had a lot of folks that went online and heard some of the audio that we shared from that chapel. Ladies, as I'm sitting here, I'm thinking I'm not sure that we've said statistically what difference an ultrasound makes. This is much more than a pregnancy test that comes out positive. There is a statistical difference that an ultrasound can make in a woman's decision.

Julie Parton: The percentage of abortion-minded women who change their mind after seeing their child on ultrasound is about double. It about doubles the percentage of young women that change their mind.

Tammy Shafer: Twice as many babies saved. We had 636 that were abortion-vulnerable or undecided or abortion-minded, and 29 aborted. That's a 95 percent carry rate.

John Fuller: To what do you attribute that, Tammy? Besides good counseling and the Lord's intervention?

Tammy Shafer: Definitely the ultrasound.

John Fuller: And without that, the numbers are much smaller.

Julie Parton: One of the things that I saw when I was counseling as an executive director at the pregnancy center is we have been equipped with some of the best materials, the pictures. But when you're showing a woman a picture of a baby in utero, you're educating her. But when you show her a picture of her baby, it's all of a sudden her reality. And that's very different than it being an educational reality. It's her reality now.

Tammy Shafer: Marilyn, one of our board members, I often hear her say God hardwires women to have a bond with their baby whether it's an unwanted pregnancy or not.

Dr. James Dobson: And the only way to keep that from happening is not tell her, not let her know. You know, there are times—and this is one of them with this project—that I can just feel the Spirit of the Lord hovering over this place and smiling and saying, "You did well." That is the greatest thrill of all, is to feel like you have cooperated with Him in one of His purposes.

Way back, 1977, I knew there was something close to the heart of the Lord about this issue because I couldn't talk about it without crying. And I would speak...

Julie Parton: Still can't.

Dr. James Dobson: I still can't. I'm fighting it today. I would speak to thousands of people across the United States at that time. And when I would bring up this issue, which didn't have a lot of support in those days—it wasn't like the Sanctity of Life movement that's out there today—and I would try to describe it, it would just come over me. I knew that the Lord was saying, "This is what I want you to do."

I am thankful for all those that are doing what they can to save those babies. It is a worthy cause. John, I don't think a radio program has ever gone by faster than this one.

John Fuller: I was amazed when I saw the clock over your shoulder.

Dr. James Dobson: I looked up at that clock and said, "No, I don't want it to stop," because you all have so many stories to tell and there's so much passion around this table today. You know what, John? I'm not going to stop. There is too much to tell. I think we need to do another program. I had planned for it to only be one day, but how can I not reach for what's here around this table? All the experience, all the love for babies, all the love for women and the heart. So if you all will be so kind, we will pick it up next time. I deeply appreciate you being here. Tammy, Darlene, and Julie, it's a pleasure to have you here. Julie, thanks for all you're doing to make this conference possible.

Julie Parton: Oh, it's totally my pleasure.

Dr. James Dobson: We'll talk again next time.

Tammy Shafer: Thank you.

Roger Marsh: Seeing the light come on in a mother's eyes when she realizes that there's actually a precious life growing inside of her—well, that's what this work in the pro-life community is all about. Friend, you're listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. We're featuring a classic conversation that Dr. Dobson had with his guests, Dr. Julie Parton, Darlene Norberg, and Tammy Shafer.

Now, the broadcast you're listening to today, which is simply titled "Saving Babies Through Ultrasound," is a classic that we've never aired before here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk. So I hope you've appreciated this. And if you want to hear more of this conversation, you'll want to go to our website at JDFI.net. You can hear this program again, share it with someone you love, and get ready to hear part two of this broadcast as well.

The conversation you heard today represents something deeply personal to Dr. Dobson's legacy and to our mission here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. For decades, Dr. Dobson championed the cause of the unborn, speaking up when few others would and crying out for those who had no voice. That calling didn't end with his passing. Every day, the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute works to defend the most vulnerable among us, advocating for every baby's right to be born and standing firm on the biblical truth that every human life bears the image of God from the moment of conception.

Your partnership allows us to continue this mission. When you support the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, you're ensuring these conversations reach mothers and fathers wrestling with difficult decisions. You're helping us share biblical truth with a culture that desperately needs to hear that truth. In fact, the number of women who don't realize that abortion is ending a human life is staggering. And yet, as Dr. Dobson and his colleague, the pro-life doctor, Dr. Bill Lyle, used to say, a person is a person no matter how small, with a nod to Dr. Seuss, of course.

As we look forward to this new year of ministry and impact, we are counting on friends like you to pray with us and stand with us. You can make a secure donation online when you go to JDFI.net. That's a new website for us, same classic material, just an easier handle to get a hold of. The URL is JDFI, James Dobson Family Institute, .net. Keep in mind you can also call a member of our constituent care team. That number is 877-732-6825. That's 877-732-6825.

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From all of us here at Family Talk and the JDFI, thanks for listening. Be sure to tune in again next time for part two of this powerful conversation about saving babies through ultrasound technology. It's coming up right here on the next edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you can still trust for the family you love. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.

Hi, this is Roger Marsh. In our digital age, technology can both connect us and challenge us. That's why the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute is here to help you navigate those complex times with wisdom from God's word. When you're feeling overwhelmed by parenting challenges or seeking biblical guidance for your marriage, our resources provide the practical help you need right when you need it most. Through our daily broadcasts, timeless books, and digital resources, we're here with you every step of the way. Thank you so much for partnering with us. Together, we're building a legacy of faith, family, and freedom that will endure for generations to come.

Dr. James Dobson: Is there any way to avoid the blues during and after the Christmas season? It's a good question. Holiday blues are rooted in a natural rhythm common in human beings. It occurs following a busy holiday or a new baby or a job promotion or even after a fast-paced vacation. You see, anything that produces an emotional high will set the stage for a later low. The bottom line is that we can and should brace ourselves for the blahs or the blues or whatever we call mild depression. It helps to be forewarned that we're likely to feel depleted for a few days when the excitement of the holidays is over. It also helps to know that when the depression has run its course, another high will take its place. Such is the rhythm of the human experience. For more information on this topic, visit DrDobsonMinute.org.