Family Talk

Dr. James Dobson: You're listening to Family Talk, the radio broadcasting division of the James Dobson Family Institute. I am that James Dobson, and I'm so pleased that you've joined us today.

Roger Marsh: Well, welcome to Family Talk, the broadcast ministry of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh, and on today's edition of Family Talk, we have a very special program for you. Last time here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, we shared part one of a powerful conversation featuring three men whose teenage years were marked by rebellion, anger, and pain.

Now, these names are all very familiar to most of us: Franklin Graham, Pastor Raul Ries, Pastor Mike MacIntosh. Each walked through very different circumstances, and yet all three of these men found themselves on a collision course with destruction before the Lord intervened. And what powerful ministries each of them established in those years after their rebellious season was over.

On today's edition of Family Talk, we're going to hear part two of Dr. Dobson's interview with these men, who went on to become respected leaders in ministry. Their stories offer both warning and hope to parents who are watching their own children struggle. Maybe this is the season that you and your spouse are going through right now with your own kids, or maybe as grandparents, you're watching your grandchildren make questionable decisions and you're wondering when on earth they are ever going to turn back around.

As we're about to hear, rebellion doesn't always stem from parental failure. Sometimes it's just simply the sinful nature of the human heart. Put another way, sometimes smart kids make dumb decisions. But in every case, prayer and the faithful proclamation of God's word can make a difference. Now, Dr. Dobson has written extensively about this subject. He wrote an entire book on the topic called *When God Doesn't Make Sense*, how to deal with difficult seasons in life.

And we've recently published a new booklet called *Faith Must Be Tough: Daily Insights to Renew Your Trust in God's Goodness*, even in today's uncertain world. It's a perfect resource to utilize to take advantage of these 10 daily devotional entries that all have links to additional material from us here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute that you can access online. Go to jdfi.net for more information about the brand-new booklet called *Faith Must Be Tough* by Dr. James Dobson. You'll find that information at jdfi.net.

Well, the men that we are about to hear from today—Franklin Graham, Mike MacIntosh, and Pastor Raul Ries—did in fact go on to have remarkable ministries. But as we think back to this conversation that was recorded in 1986, here we are 40 years later realizing that the work that God started in these men did take them through a season of rebellion, kind of a crucible, if you will, before they actually launched their ministries. And what ministries they had. So teenage rebellion is one of those subjects that does hit close to home, doesn't it, Dr. Dobson?

Dr. James Dobson: Well, it hits Christian parents especially hard, and that's why we come back to this subject often, trying to give encouragement and advice to parents. This program that we're going to hear now—this is the second part of a two-part program—was recorded in 1986. I had an idea for a program that I described where I invited three well-known ministers to come into the studio with me—men who are winning people to Christ, men whose lives are dedicated to ministry—but they were rebellious teens.

All three of them were really tough to deal with. They have not only come through that, but they are being used mightily by the Lord today. It was true in 1986 when I invited them here, and it's even more true today.

Roger Marsh: Well, it certainly is. And now let's get into this classic edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.

Dr. James Dobson: When you look at adolescents today who are going through rebellion, when you see teenagers who are angry at the world and they're breaking all the rules and they're getting kicked out of school and they're on marijuana and their parents are having all this trouble with them, do you see them differently than we see them, those of us who did not come through that kind of rebellion? Can you give us some insight into what those teenagers are feeling and thinking? Why are they fighting the world in this way?

Mike MacIntosh: I'll take a shot at it. Sandy and I have five beautiful children. Two of them are teenagers and we have a third one in a couple months will enter her teen years. I look back at my teenage years and as we mentioned on the last program, there was a death of my oldest brother, who I thought was going to be our great white hope. He was the only one in college and he was going to get us all into a nice house and out of poverty.

I had a lot of unanswered questions. I was struggling with becoming a man from a boy physically. I was just finding out what girls were all about. I was an athlete; I was trying to keep in shape for that. And then there was the party scene, and then there's this Christian thing. So I was fighting battles on several fronts and I had questions about life and questions about who am I and questions about hurt and pain. And since my mother was a single parent and working, I didn't have anybody answer those questions for me.

So I struggled without the questions being answered. And when you couldn't get the answers, then frustration builds up. So you go to your peer group. And in the peer group, you find those that like you and accept you and those that don't like you and reject you, so you gravitate towards those that like and accept you. And they may not be the most desirable people for you to gravitate towards.

So I think that there's a lot going on that the parent doesn't see. This sounds strange, that the person that loves them the most is the hardest one for them to talk to. And I think the parent needs to realize that that child is an individual. God made them an individual, and they're not responsible for everything. But we're so domineering as parents. Like you said, we want to give them the best, we want them to have the best. And when we see them make a falter, we take the negative upon ourselves.

Dr. James Dobson: You know, in the third film of our film series, *Turn Your Heart Toward Home*, I deal with adolescence and I describe the adolescent journey as being like a river and you come to a time of turbulence. You come to the rapids there. And the water's boiling all up and the little boat is bouncing all over the place.

Parents at a time like that are inclined to fear that the falls are right around a bend. But in most cases, that doesn't happen. In most cases, they come through this turbulence and lo and behold, they get into the early 20s and the river smooths out again. And I have offered the advice in that film that what you want to do when their boat is bouncing all over the river is get them through it. That is the advice: get them through it. And if you press too hard at that time, you'll turn that boat over. You don't want to rock the boat when it's already bouncing all over the river.

Franklin Graham: You know, I'm here today because of prayer. And my parents prayed me through that turbulent period in my life. And maybe that is simplistic prayer, but my parents loved me enough to pray for me. And my grandfather and my grandmother. So I'm here today because of prayer and the grace of God. I don't deserve anything but death, but yet Christ—for some reason, God has allowed me to be raised in a Christian home and exposed to the gospel and age 22 giving me that opportunity to receive him as my Lord and Savior. And I thank God for parents that prayed for me.

Dr. James Dobson: My daughter was two when I realized that there isn't enough knowledge in the books. There isn't enough wisdom in what I write or anybody else to get them through those years without divine help. And that's why I began praying for her and later Ryan, because I knew I had to have help. I don't care what your training is, what your experience is. Satan is too vicious and you've got to have the Lord's help at a time like that.

Raul, you're a pastor of a large church now and you've got a lot of teenagers in that church. I visited you one night and I couldn't believe the number of young people you have there. So you see a lot of adolescent rebellion, don't you?

Raul Ries: Yes, I was thinking about Franklin, what he had said concerning his childhood. And I have a son that has grown up in the Lord, but at the same time, in between 15 and 17, he's become rebellious in his own way. And one of the things is the anger, that what he wants to identify himself individually. They don't want any rules and regulations. And it's come to the point that even one time where he got so angry that he kicked the wall in his room.

And I was at work and my wife called me, and so what I did is I called the police. Because I said I will not stand for that. And so when I got home, I start sharing with him and I made him pay for the wall. And I sat him down, I said, "Raul, I don't want you to go to hell." Deep inside in my life, I was sharing, "Raul, I want you to know that Jesus Christ loves you," but it doesn't seem to penetrate. They have to learn for themselves. And I know that a lot of times in my own nature as I become angry toward him, that he's rebelled more against me. And so they want to get tough, and it's hard.

Dr. James Dobson: Franklin, did your mom or dad—I don't want to get too personal because they're so visible—but did they ever say, "Now Franklin, you know we're in the ministry and you know there's a lot of people watching us and you're really undermining the whole ministry"? Did you ever get that approach?

Franklin Graham: No, sir. Never, not one time. I think they knew that wouldn't have made any difference to me.

Dr. James Dobson: What were you like in junior high school?

Franklin Graham: Junior high school, I was rebellious, but again, I was at home and I had very much respect for my mother and father. And it was right at high school I went to New York, this private school, and that's where I learned really I think a lot of disrespect. And that's where I got an appetite for the world.

And I think that's important. You're going to lose your children one day anyhow, they're going to pack up and move on and leave the house. I think it's important that we have as much contact with our children as long as we can. And I hope and pray that I'll have my children all the way through high school. But I was 13 when I left home to go to the boarding school, but not by my own choice.

Dr. James Dobson: That's a very risky move, because if there ever is a time in a child's life when he needs stability, it's that 13, 14, early adolescent phase.

Raul Ries: Well, one of the things too that I feel as we're dealing with the kids today, like you said, is that their main complaint to me is that my parents both work and they want me out of the way. They don't want nothing to do with me. We have fellowship on Monday nights for kids in my area where I live in La Verne.

And most of the kids that were coming over were kids that their parents don't want—they buy them off with money. Nothing to do. And they're in drugs, they're in sex, the whole thing. And so somebody starts paying attention to them, and my house is always full with kids, which they can't get that in their homes. And so we have become like parents to these kids through my kids coming and bringing their friends.

Dr. James Dobson: You see a real problem with latchkey kids then?

Raul Ries: Yes, a lot.

Dr. James Dobson: What advice do you have to parents? They have to work, at least those in your context do.

Raul Ries: But I would advise them at least spend some—it's not really the quantity time, but the quality time with them. That they want to be touched, they want to be loved. They want to be able to see that you really care for me and I can talk to you. The child comes, "Dad, I want to talk to you." "I'm too busy," or "I'm watching football or baseball," or "I'm going down to the gym." Well, the child already feels rejected, so what's the next thing? Drugs, alcohol, or go see my girlfriend and get into sex and escape.

Dr. James Dobson: You've been there, you've experienced it. What do you say to them? Any advice to them? To the kid right now who if he sat down and talked to you he'd say, "I got a right to be angry. I haven't been done right. Nobody's loved me, nobody cares about me. I don't like the way I'm built. I don't like my face. I can't learn as well as other people. I don't do well in football, it hits me in the face. I got a right to be angry." What do you say to him?

Raul Ries: I would sit down with them and I would share my life with them first of all, and then share the word of God how Jesus Christ loves them so much. And just going through the scripture showing them that anything apart from the word will be rebellion and it could even be hell for them. And I'm just trying to say them that time so they don't have to go through what I had to go through or Mike or Franklin. They respond to that message because they know that you care for them. You open your heart to them, and sometimes we cry together, we laugh together, and they see that trueness in your heart.

Dr. James Dobson: Would you agree, Mike, that sometimes the parent is not the one to do that? Sometimes it needs to be the youth minister or it needs to be the pastor, needs to be a neighbor or friend or a church member. Why is it the pastor and youth minister are afraid of the youth?

Mike MacIntosh: That's a good question. You think they are? Yeah, I really do. When I started in San Diego with those 12 people, we grew to about 75 in three months and then we grew to 500 in six months. It was a lot of the teenagers and young college students. But youth ministers would come say, "Well, we brought our kids here," and so on and so forth.

But I found out and I found in my own life while I was in high school that it was charades, it was games. And sometimes when I'm asked to speak at a youth camp, they're missing the point. Here are these teenagers that are going to movies that are PG or PG-13 that show sex between unmarried people. There's swearing left and right. They're snorting cocaine. They got all the role models that are wrong for them and they're hearing it at school, they're talking it themselves, they're doing it.

And they go to a "youth minister" who's talking syrupy things that aren't even relating to them. But they're acting like they're nice kids in front of them, so as soon as they leave, they say, "Gosh," and they go do their own thing. So I feel that the youth minister really—he needs an experience with the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus said to whom much is forgiven, there's much love, but to whom little is forgiven, there's little love.

And I've found in helping people with the Lord and with the word that the Lord uses my past a lot like with Raul too and Franklin to really share from our heart and not to be afraid of them. They don't like it when you're afraid of them, and they know if you're afraid of them and you're afraid to confront them say, "Hey, are you and your girlfriend getting it on after the meeting here?" Because I used to go out and have sex after our meeting and nobody ever stopped me and said, "Now, you're a senior in high school here, Mike, are you and what's-her-name going out? What are you going up there on Rocky Butte for and sitting there?" Well, nobody ever challenged me. And if they would have told me it was in the Bible and it's fornication, I would have stopped.

Dr. James Dobson: Jesus was confrontational. You know, he had some pretty strong things to say to the rich young ruler who walked away from him and he let him go. I think we are afraid of them. We're afraid to preach the truth. We're so afraid we won't build a program.

Mike MacIntosh: You'd know better than us though, but hasn't that been the cycle from generation to generation, that teenage year? See, that's what got the hippies with Chuck Smith. He was fearless with the word of God. I mean, he would just preach the word of God. We'd come out of Laguna Beach flying high on LSD, and this wasn't the Maharishi, this wasn't a guru. This was a man that was speaking from the Bible that everybody knew was some sort of a special book. And he would say, "This is what God's standard of living is, and are you living this? And then this is how Jesus will help you live that standard." And when somebody would just clearly tell us what the Bible said, you better believe we'll throw everything away for Jesus if he died for us.

Dr. James Dobson: It's worth these broadcasts just to get across that message, that the Bible will speak if we give it half a chance, even to the rebellious youngster who looks like he couldn't care less. The truth of that word will come through if we don't edit it. It'll never return void. It bothers me that that's not only done to teenagers, but to adults as well. Preachers today are afraid to lay it down straight. And yet in the first century, why were Christians willing to face the lions? Why were they willing to die for their faith? It was not just some bland something. I mean, this is worth giving their lives to. And it's the whole gospel that carries that kind of power.

Mike MacIntosh: That's what Paul told Timothy, "From your youth up, you've known the scriptures able to save you." And that his grandmother and mother had such an influence with the scriptures; they didn't pull the Bible back from little Timothy. And had somebody stop me at 16 and said, "Here, we're going to help you," it would have saved me 10 years of hell.

Dr. James Dobson: Would you have listened?

Mike MacIntosh: Yes, I would have. I was trying when my brother died to find somebody to talk to. There was a man that was a stockbroker that lived in our apartment building. I dropped out of high school my senior year, I got so frustrated, wanted to join the army. Well, he had said, "If you won't marry this high school sweetheart when you get out of the National Guard for six months, I'll give you the money to go to Portland State College." And I said, "Okay, that's a fair deal. I won't marry her."

So I didn't get married, but when I came back, I remember I got a job and I called him up. I said, "I'm back and I've been working for three months and fall season's coming. I need $75 for tuition and books. Could you help me out and I'll pay?" He says, "I'm really strapped for cash. I can't help you. Thank you very much," and hung up. He had had an opportunity to have me further my education at that time for 75 bucks. For a stockbroker, it was nothing. He had made a promise to me and then broke the promise.

I can think of other times when I looked for help from people. If they would have just given me the time of day, they could have pointed me towards the Bible. The guy in charge of the youth group, I cannot remember him telling me you need to be born again. Mike, put your faith in Jesus Christ. And at 19 years old or 18 at that time, had he just told me that, I would have stopped right there and just said, "Jesus, I surrender to you."

And so I went on all those years till the drinking and the cigarette smoking—well, some people could pooh-pooh that, but that was to me too, because as an athlete, I knew I could hurt myself. And some of the kids that are listening right now are only doing the things that they're doing to hurt themselves because nobody's given them the love they really want. And it went from beer to when marijuana nobody heard of, that then I was on my own. I'm going to smoke some marijuana. This will show everybody.

Then it went to LSD. And then it went on and I said, "Well, I'm maybe going too far," until one trip when I thought a man stuck a 45 to my head and blew my brains out. And it took me two years of psychotherapy to believe that I didn't have a hole in the side of my head. But all that time under LSD and my mind gone and thinking the left side of my head was missing, I knew I had damaged myself because the chip on my shoulder of bitterness and anger. I didn't have a good family. I never had a dad that loved me. I didn't finish school. Nobody would give me a helping hand. And I would encourage anybody that's listening, if they're in a position of authority or a position to help a young man or young woman, help them. Just reach out right now and help them. If it means pay their tuition, don't hang on to those stupid dollars.

Dr. James Dobson: That story explains your passion to reach out to young people, doesn't it, Mike?

Mike MacIntosh: Oh yeah. Nobody reached out to me. Now I don't hope that's not a selfish motive, but I think the Lord's purified my motives in that area. But I realize that just one life—I should be dead today in hell. And when Christ Jesus stepped into my life and said, "Hey, you didn't get your head blown off. You were on drugs and you're messed up. I'm going to heal you," and I was healed of brain damage that doctors say. I mean, when they prayed for me and I just came back into my senses after two years of thinking I was gone, that was it. And now I look at these young men and women, our whole nation is wiped out with one of the stupidest things, an entire generation brainwashed through drugs.

Dr. James Dobson: Raul, we need a revival, don't we?

Raul Ries: Yes, we do. And that's the only thing that's going to save our nation completely. That's the answer to teen rebellion and about every other problem we think of. And I think God is going to bring revival because I've been seeing it. I think me and Mike with the kids and we travel, all of us—Franklin—the kids, they want to do right, but they need guidance. They need godly people to guide them.

Dr. James Dobson: Well, you gentlemen have provided a lot of that guidance. I know you love the Lord, you're working for him, and I feel a real sense of camaraderie with you. I share your burden for young people. We have got to do something to help them. That whole generation, Raul, that you're talking about, those little kids—it breaks my heart what we're doing to kids. We have got to do something about that. And the Lord still has the answer.

Roger Marsh: If you're a parent who's been praying for what seems like years for your wayward child, the testimonies we heard today here on Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk are proof that God is still in the business of transforming rebellious hearts. On today's edition of Family Talk, you heard a classic conversation featuring Franklin Graham, Pastor Mike MacIntosh, and Pastor Raul Ries.

The words and wisdom that were shared on these past couple of programs still ring true. And if you missed any part of this two-day broadcast or you know a mom or dad or a grandpa or grandma who needs this encouragement, I encourage you to go to jdfi.net.

As we discuss the topic of dealing with rebellious teenagers, there are many times during that season when a lot of parents come before the Lord, arms extended, tears in their eyes, and asking the question, "God, this doesn't make any sense. Why are we going through this season right now?" Let's face it: there are times when we struggle with heartaches and trials that are so severe, we really can't understand how God could let them happen in the first place. But fortunately, in those situations, he seems not to make any sense at all, but he is working behind the scenes far beyond what we could ever ask or imagine for.

Many years ago, Dr. Dobson wrote a powerful book called *When God Doesn't Make Sense*, and gleaned from the wisdom of that text, we've created a free 10-day email series where these insightful messages can strengthen your faith and show you how dark valleys can bring life's greatest blessing, which is a closer walk with Jesus. Now, to start receiving the 10-day email series called *When God Doesn't Make Sense*, simply go to jdfi.net and search for that title, *When God Doesn't Make Sense*. Again, the email series is absolutely free. All you have to do to sign up is go to jdfi.net and search for that title.

Every day, you know, we hear from listeners who feel like they're at the end of their rope. We're hearing from parents who are watching their children make destructive choices, grandparents who are grieving over prodigals who have walked away from their faith. They wonder if their prayers are really making any difference at all. And programs like the one you heard today remind them that no one is beyond God's reach.

For more than 15 years, the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute has been a trusted resource for families navigating life's toughest seasons, offering biblical truth, practical wisdom, and the reminder that God's grace is sufficient for every struggle. And we are committed to promoting marriage, strengthening families, and pointing people to the gospel of Jesus Christ now like never before. But we can only continue this work because of friends like you who believe in this mission and believe that we have been entrusted to carry on the legacy of Dr. Dobson, taking this message to new generations and geographies.

So if today's program has encouraged you, we encourage you to partner with us. You can make a secure donation when you go to jdfi.net. You can also call a member of our constituent care team at 877-732-6825. That's 877-732-6825. Now, if you'd prefer to write to us, our ministry mailing address is: Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, PO Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado, the zip code 80949. Once again, our ministry mailing address is: Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, or just use those initials JDFI for short, PO Box 39000, Colorado Springs, Colorado 80949.

Well, I'm Roger Marsh, and on behalf of all of us here at Family Talk and the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you can still trust for the family you love.

Dr. James Dobson: Here's today's Dobson Minute with Dr. James Dobson. Since there's no such creature as a perfect parent, we subject ourselves to a constant cross-examination in the courtroom of parental acceptability. "Was I fair in my discipline? Did I overreact out of frustration and anger?" Round and round go the self-doubts and recriminations, and guilt becomes a constant companion.

The best way to handle guilt is to face it squarely, using it as a source of motivation for change where warranted. I would suggest that parents sit down together and discuss their feelings. Then ask yourselves: "Is my guilt valid? Can I do anything about it? If so, how? If not, isn't it appropriate that I lay the matter to rest?"

Remember that none of us can be perfect parents. Fortunately, we're permitted to make many mistakes through the years, provided the overall tone is somewhere near the right note. For more information, visit dobsonminute.org.

Roger Marsh: This is Roger Marsh from Family Talk. The freedoms we enjoy today were hard-won by those who came before us, and it's up to all of us to protect them. Here at the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, we're committed to defending religious liberty and the timeless values that shaped our nation. Through our broadcasts, articles, and resources, we equip you to stand for godly principles in your own community. So thank you for partnering with us to protect faith, family, and freedom for future generations. For more information, visit jdfi.net. This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.