Family Talk

Dr. James Dobson: Welcome everyone to Family Talk. It's a ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute, supported by listeners just like you. I'm Dr. James Dobson and I'm thrilled that you've joined us.

Roger Marsh: Well, welcome once again to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the broadcast division of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute. I'm Roger Marsh. It was October 3rd, 1993, in the streets of Mogadishu, Somalia. A small group of elite American soldiers found themselves pinned down, taking fire, and by their own estimation, completely outmatched.

Many of them believed that they would not survive the night. But one of those men was Staff Sergeant Jeff Struecker. He led a squad of Rangers that day, lost men under his command, and returned to fight anyway. But what carried him through though wasn't just training or toughness, it was faith. And what he discovered in those desperate hours changed the entire direction of his life.

On today's edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, we'll hear Dr. Dobson continue his conversation with Jeff Struecker, decorated Army veteran, chaplain, and author of the book, The Road to Unafraid. On the last Family Talk broadcast, the two men covered the battle itself. Today, Dr. Struecker will share what came afterwards and why he believes God left him standing when so many others were unable to do so. So let's get into today's edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk.

Dr. James Dobson: I really think that Americans owe all the people who have fought for this country the understanding of the price that was paid. I am an amateur military historian. I haven't had any academic training in that area, but I'm fascinated by the price people paid to protect us.

It's one of the things that frustrates me greatly today where the American people are whining and groaning and complaining and dividing this country and hating each other. I don't understand all that because of the price that somebody paid to make this stability this greatest country in history of the world.

I mean, it is. The founding fathers gave us a Constitution like none other and we're about to destroy it. Civil war is even a possibility out there. So that is one of the things I'm interested in hearing from you. On that occasion where you said there's no way out, we're all going to die, what was occurring then?

Jeff Struecker: Well, I was a combat leader at this point. I had a squad of men, about ten men, on two Humvees that I was responsible for. Immediately, my next thought was I'd already lost one of my men, several of them have already been wounded, and my vehicles were already shot to pieces at this moment where I just basically surrendered my life.

The intelligence was kind of sketchy that day. It's not that we didn't know this was going to be bad, we just didn't know how bad this was going to be. So we put on the ground about 200 guys and in the air about another 100 in helicopters. And somewhere between 10,000 and 20,000 armed Somalis were who we were fighting against.

That math doesn't matter who your military is and what your technology is, you're not going to win. About 45 minutes into this battle, all of us realized how bad the math was. We were all saying none of us are going to see the light of day. I had the unfortunate experience of losing the first man in that battle on my Humvee sitting in the seat right behind me when Dominic Pilla was shot and killed instantly.

I had to make this radio broadcast telling everybody that one guy has just been killed. Everybody on the radio when they heard that broadcast understood it could be me next. In fact, it could be my buddy standing next to me. It's this bad.

When the moments came that I really surrendered eternity, I didn't surrender my faith, but I really surrendered my life here on earth. It no longer belongs to me. If I survive, it's going to take a miracle from God. From that moment forward, I was absolutely convinced that I was going to die. But all I could think about was the rest of my men.

I'm ashamed to say I didn't share my faith with Dominic Pilla like I should have. Immediately, the Lord started to give me this desire to want to be able to share one more time my faith in Jesus with my men.

Dr. James Dobson: Are the seeds of your later chaplaincy training and commitment found in that moment?

Jeff Struecker: I think it all comes to that very moment where I felt like, Jeff, it may be because of you that Dominic Pilla is not in heaven right now. Now I don't know his faith. So maybe he is, maybe he's not. I hope if his parents are listening today that he is, but I don't know that.

It's embarrassing to say because I didn't share my faith with him like I should. I started to feel like all of my men are going to get killed tonight. So my prayer for the rest of that night was, God, give me one more chance. One more chance to tell them about my faith. And if we all die in Mogadishu after that, so be it. But just give me one more shot at sharing my faith in Jesus with these guys.

We went through a lot of battle that night. I don't have time to tell you about all of it today, but the next morning, my men were shot to pieces but none of them were killed. Most of us should be dead. All of us really should be dead. I think if you were to ask any of us that survived, we would all say there is no explanation for why I'm still here other than God supernaturally protected me.

Dr. James Dobson: Is that moment depicted in the movie Black Hawk Down?

Jeff Struecker: A very brief scene of it is between me and one of my soldiers. When I come back from the battle the first time and I'm dropping Dominic Pilla off, one of my soldiers who came back with me understood that we may be killed in the next few moments.

We're about to get on the vehicles and to go back out in the city streets again. He walks up to me and he says, "Hey Sergeant, I can't go back out in those city streets. I know I'm going to die if I do this." It took a lot of courage for him to be able to say that to his boss. Rangers generally don't say that to each other, definitely not to their boss.

I looked him in the eyes and the movie Black Hawk Down depicts this scene pretty well. I looked him in the eyes and I said, "I'm scared too, man. I know you are, and I am, and all of us are. But those men that are stuck out in the city streets are fighting for their life and if we don't go back out there, there's no chance of survival."

I told him I need you to get on those Humvees. He got back on those vehicles absolutely certain he was going to die and spent the rest of that night on those vehicles with me. For the rest of that night, I was thinking that guy essentially said I'm going to go out there and die tonight so that somebody who's out there has a chance of coming back alive.

He was married and had a lot on the line. I can tell you to this day, I don't think I've ever been more proud of a soldier than that guy who was on the back of those Humvees with me in Somalia. He stayed in the army, by the way, and became an incredible warrior for many years after that.

Dr. James Dobson: You know, I was not in that kind of a combat situation, but there was a man that I went to see in the hospital who was going to have open heart surgery that night. I was quite sure he did not know the Lord, at least he didn't profess it.

I spent some time with him. He was in the process of dying. He was throwing up. It's really hard to share your faith when you're talking to people who are looking eternity in the face. I didn't do a good job of it and he died that night. I've thought about him ever since. Did I miss the last opportunity to keep him out of hell? I'm sure you've felt some of that.

Jeff Struecker: I feel that way. I think that sense of urgency should be on the heart of every Christian in the world. We should feel like is that person in my neighborhood or that guy that I work with, is he going to be in eternity tomorrow? And if he is, is he going to be in heaven? And if not, is it going to be because of me?

I don't know that I've ever read the story, but you may be familiar with Dietrich Bonhoeffer's famous dream right before his death in the concentration camp in Germany. Dietrich Bonhoeffer knows that he's going to die. He's been in prison for quite some time. He has a dream that he's about to stand before the Lord.

Bonhoeffer, when he was a pastor, had the opportunity to meet with Adolf Hitler for five minutes. Bonhoeffer was terrified that the question that the Lord was going to ask him as soon as he stood in his presence was, "Were you with Adolf Hitler for five minutes and did not tell him about my son Jesus?"

Bonhoeffer said he would feel like he would have to hang his head in shame and say, "I didn't. I didn't talk to the Fuhrer about Christ when I could have. I had five minutes with him." I don't know if that event really happened in his past, but as much as I understand Dietrich Bonhoeffer's life, that was a dream shortly before his death.

Dr. James Dobson: He would have been one who would worry about that. What a man he was.

Jeff Struecker: He is one of my heroes in the faith, Dietrich Bonhoeffer. His story is just unbelievable. It's another of the great heroes. I've been told this many times, read it many times, that men particularly who are involved in combat do it for one another. It may not even be primarily for country. It is love of one another. Can you describe that to me?

Jeff Struecker: Young men and women sign up to serve our country for a whole lot of reasons and most of them are very noble reasons. But they run through bullets and gunfire knowing that they're going to die for only one reason and everybody does it for the same reason. It's love.

They love the people that they're running through bullets for more than they love their own life. On Memorial Day, I think our country needs to remember our freedom is very cheap if it wasn't for that kind of love. America, God forbid we ever become a country that has a very cheap, very narrow view of our freedom.

Dr. James Dobson: Did you feel that love?

Jeff Struecker: Those men would do anything for me and they proved it repeatedly. Not just in one combat tour but more than one combat tour. That they would do anything to include give their life if that's what it took for me. And they knew I would do the same thing for them, happily do it for them.

I appreciate what you shared with us and what it cost you to serve your country. Because the American people have not been on the scene, they've seen it in Hollywood, which is irrelevant almost. What would you say about that price that we've been talking about?

Jeff Struecker: Well, I will tell you a quick story, a true story. We came back from Somalia, just a handful of us, in October of 1993. In November, we were invited by the mayor of New York City, me and five other men, to go there and to officially represent the US Army and to march in the Veterans Day Parade down Lower Manhattan.

So we were carrying America's colors, we were carrying our unit colors, we were in full dress uniform and we were going through the subway to the start point of the Veterans Day Parade and we were accosted in the subway in New York City. Spit on and yelled at.

The media portrayed in a very ugly light about Somalia. One of them was that there were a number of women and young children that were killed in this big battle in October 3rd and 4th. So this young ignorant, for lack of a better word, guy that's accosting us in the subway in New York City starts calling us baby killers.

The guy that's standing to my right, I literally watched the switch flip in his mind and realized this man, this Ranger who's standing next to me, is about to kill him for what he's saying to him. We had to basically drag him away and he kept screaming at this guy, "You don't know because you weren't there."

When we finally got alone before the Veterans Day Parade started in 1993 in New York City, all of us looked at him and we said, "He doesn't know. He will never understand what you did. And there's no amount of explaining it or trying to describe it that will help him understand. He'll never get it."

This is one of the things that you did for our country that our country will never understand. Now I don't believe any warrior should be treated the way that we were treated in the subways of New York City, but I learned something from his response. He doesn't know and they will never really understand. Probably it's good that America's sons and daughters will never know what a lot of warriors went through.

Dr. James Dobson: What would you say to America on this Memorial Day? It's actually yesterday now, but what will you say to them that'll give them a little more understanding of those who paid that price?

Jeff Struecker: It represents a handful of real men that I will never forget for the rest of my life. They're no longer with us, but I made a vow to God until my dying day, I will not forget them and I'll try to not let my children or my children's children forget.

These are men that died for my freedom. I don't want America to have this cheap view of freedom. We are one generation, every generation of Americans are one generation from losing this gift of freedom that was paid for with a lot of blood.

All it will take is one generation rising up and saying I'm not willing to fight and to die for it. Thank God that for more than 230 years, there have been Americans who said if it costs me my life, this thing called freedom in America is worth dying for. And many good men and women have died for it.

Dr. James Dobson: Do you worry about the millennial generation that's coming?

Jeff Struecker: I shared a lot of criticism and a lot of concern about future generations until September 12th, 2001. I saw a lot of men and women show up and sign up for no reason other than I am so angry at what happened to my country and I love my country so much.

I just literally, I sold my company of a very, very lucrative business and I am now a private in the US Army because of my love of country. America, I want us to remember something. The longest declared war before Afghanistan was the Revolutionary War. We have far surpassed that, doubled it.

We've not had to draft anybody because there's always been a handful of young men and women, this millennial generation that everybody likes to criticize, who show up and say sign me up. Yes, I understand the fine print means I may die.

Dr. James Dobson: So you believe when push comes to shove, they'll be there.

Jeff Struecker: I believe that America's parents today need to raise the next generation to be willing to do the same thing.

Dr. James Dobson: Did this generation of parents fail at that point?

Jeff Struecker: No. In fact, Dr. Dobson, I think what you're seeing among the 20 and 30-year-olds of America's warrior class, I hate to use this term but the warrior class of America, you're seeing the second greatest generation in our country's history.

I think Tom Brokaw was right. The World War II generation is hands down the greatest generation in our country. But the fact that these men and women have signed up after 9/11 says I know you're going to send me to war and I know I might die and I'm signing up in droves.

Never have we had to even consider a draft because this second greatest generation of Americans have said sign me up and if it costs me my life, so be it.

Dr. James Dobson: You're telling America to be proud.

Jeff Struecker: That's right. You have in your midst a lot of great warriors. But you have at Arlington National Cemetery and in national cemeteries all over our country a lot more who have given the ultimate sacrifice. Don't forget them.

Let's turn a corner now and talk about your personal situation. Because after being a warrior for a long time and serving in many of the battles and not just battles but combat operations, you decided to leave the military because God was talking to you. Let's make this very personal. Tell us about that experience.

Jeff Struecker: Well, early in the morning of October 4th, 1993, so the battle is almost over with and I for the first time in this all night battle realize I might survive. I'm driving out of the city and I had this very vivid memory of seeing the road in front of me littered like a ticker tape parade, littered with brass bullet casings from all of the bullets that we've shot that night.

I was thinking to myself how could anybody still be alive in this city? How could any of us or any of the Somali militia still be alive? As I was driving away, I got this overwhelming sense. God, I walked away from this without a scratch. That can't be explained. This is supernatural.

As soon as I got back to our base that morning, I started processing, okay, that also means it wasn't a coincidence that I walked away without a scratch. Obviously, you preserved my life. Why did you preserve my life? I don't understand it. I am no better of a warrior. In fact, some of those men that are dead were better warriors than I am and I'll be the first to admit it. I should be in Arlington National Cemetery. They should still be alive.

This was a very vivid experience that happened to me the day after the battle. It's actually a moment in time where it was an overwhelming sense of God's call to ministry. Guys just randomly started showing up and asking me questions about heaven and hell and about their faith.

They were asking me questions like why did this happen to us? I thought we were the best military in the world. How could this happen to us? They asked me questions about what happened to my friend who just died on a helicopter or a Humvee.

More than a couple of them said, "Jeff, there was something very different about you than me last night. I listened to your voice over the radio and I heard a sense of peace and calm that I didn't have." And they said you have something that I don't have. I want to know what it is.

They saw it, they could hear it. They woke me up in the middle of a dead sleep saying I have to talk to you right now about your faith because I could tell there's something different about you. And it was as if the Lord was saying, Jeff, this is what I want you to do with the rest of your life.

You see, you were ready for eternity. These guys aren't. And what happens inside a man's soul, that goes on forever in eternity. Jeff, I want you to spend the rest of your life helping men get ready for eternity.

Came back from Somalia and I asked the two people that I trusted with this question. I asked my chaplain and my pastor. I said I feel like God is calling me into the ministry. What do I do next? Without hesitation, very first words out of their mouth is you need to go to school and you need to get an education so that you can minister and do whatever it is that the Lord is calling you to do next.

I really feel like God left me on planet earth so that I could impact men, but specifically the tough manly men who feel like church ain't for me, that maybe okay for my wife but I don't need that stuff. I want to be able to say to them, "Look, I've been where you are. I've got the T-shirt. I can run with the toughest men in the world and I can tell you the Jesus that I serve is much tougher than you may realize."

I'm privileged to be able to serve right outside of Fort Benning, Georgia in one of the best communities in America.

Dr. James Dobson: So you did in fact resign from the military?

Jeff Struecker: Yes, sir. I spent ten years, I was a sergeant at that point. I went to college, I finished seminary, I came back on active duty and spent ten years as an army chaplain. I went many times to Afghanistan and Iraq during those ten years.

As a chaplain now with all of this combat experience, having competed in and won the best Ranger competition, the notoriety of being one of those soldiers that actually survived Black Hawk Down in Mark Bowden's book and the movie Black Hawk Down made those of us who survived a bit of a celebrity in the army.

When I was a chaplain and I showed up, my soldiers gave me unprecedented respect. In fact, they trusted me with questions that I think some chaplains would spend months developing the kind of rapport that they would be able to hear those kind of questions in counseling.

Dr. James Dobson: Because you had experience.

Jeff Struecker: Because of all of this experience. Many of my soldiers said, "Chaplain, because of what you did as a soldier, I have to ask you this question now." I'm proud to say the leaders in my unit said, "Chaplain, will you come with us on this combat mission because we are afraid that it's going to get really bad and I would like to have you along? Not as a lucky rabbit's foot, but if it gets really bad and soldiers are being wounded or killed around us, I want you to be there."

I took that responsibility very seriously and as often as I could, I went with my men out on missions so that I could be with them.

Dr. James Dobson: Did you lead a lot of them to Jesus?

Jeff Struecker: I had the privilege of baptizing a lot of guys and seeing a number of men come to faith in Christ. Generally, the way my conversation started is I know exactly what you're going through because I've been there.

Roger Marsh: Jeff Struecker went back into those city streets fully expecting to die, but he came out on the other side with a calling he could not ignore. On today's edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, we've heard the conclusion of a remarkable two-day conversation featuring Dr. James Dobson and his guest, retired Army major and chaplain, Jeff Struecker.

To listen to either part one or part two of this broadcast again, or to share both of them with a friend, visit JDFI.net. While you're there, be sure to also look for Jeff's autobiographical book called The Road to Unafraid. You'll find both the book and the audio when you go to DrJamesDobson.org or JDFI.net.

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Well, I'm Roger Marsh and on behalf of all of us here at Family Talk and the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute, thanks so much for spending part of your day with us today and thank you for standing with this ministry. Be sure to join us again next time right here for another edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love.

This has been a presentation of the Dr. James Dobson Family Institute.