Family Talk

Dr. James Dobson: Hello everyone, you’re listening to Family Talk, the radio broadcasting ministry of the James Dobson Family Institute. I’m Dr. James Dobson, and thank you for joining us for this program.

Roger Marsh: Welcome to Family Talk. I'm Roger Marsh. What were the last words Jesus spoke before he died on the cross? Most of us could probably name one or two, but how about all seven?

On today's edition of Family Talk, Dr. James Dobson sits down with Stu Epperson Jr., founder of the Truth Network, to explore what Jesus was communicating in those final sacred moments. Stu Epperson Jr. comes from a remarkable legacy of Christian broadcasting.

His father, Stuart Epperson Sr., co-founded Salem Communications and was named one of America's 25 most influential evangelicals by Time magazine. Following in those footsteps, Stu Jr. founded the Truth Network in 2000, which now broadcasts Bible-based teaching across North Carolina, Virginia, Iowa, and Utah.

He's also the author of the book, The Last Words of Jesus: First Steps to a Richer Life. On today's Family Talk broadcast, he and Dr. Dobson will dig into the profound meaning behind what Jesus said from the cross.

Dr. James Dobson: Stu Epperson, who’s the founder and president of the Truth Network. He has 12 radio stations in four states and growing, just trying to reach folks with the good news. Several of them are in central Iowa, Salt Lake City, and of course in North Carolina.

Stu also is a coach and mentor for others playing the game of basketball. You're about six-four, aren't you?

Stu Epperson Jr.: I'm six-six, same height as my dad. I tell everyone I'm six-six, 240 pounds, mostly muscle. Then everyone smiles at that part.

Dr. James Dobson: I’ve known your dad for a long time too. He is one of the founders of the Salem Network, Salem Communications, I believe they call themselves. That’s the largest Christian conglomerate in the world. I have worked with them for many years.

I watched that network grow. I remember telling Ed Atsinger one time, "Don’t bet the farm. We need you." They were buying all these additional stations. Anyway, you’ve got good stock. You come out of a fine family. I love your mom too. She is a Bible scholar. She has memorized most of the Bible, hasn't she?

Stu Epperson Jr.: She's been quoting the verses from the Bible for years. It's really had an impact on my life and an impact on my ministry to this day.

Dr. James Dobson: Stu is married to Julie, and they have four kids: Hope, Grace, Joy, and Faith—all four girls. I've got a book for you. I don't think you need it, but I need all your books at this point.

I’m really glad to have you here. In addition to everything else you’re doing, including basketball, you’ve written a book called The Last Words of Jesus. It was published by Worthy. The subtitle is First Steps to a Richer Life.

This book will inspire and be a blessing to our listeners. I'm so glad to have you talk about this because you actually have built the entire book around the last seven things that Jesus said on the cross and what the meaning is. What a great topic. How did you come up with that?

Stu Epperson Jr.: I was studying it myself and I discovered that I knew very little about the topic. It was right about Easter time and I was leading a men’s Bible study called Wednesdays in the Word. I thought, "What did Jesus say as he died on the cross? Where are those sayings found? What did he mean by those sayings? How many are found in each gospel?"

All those questions were popping up in my mind and my heart, so I started studying it. I couldn't believe how little I knew about that. I probably got a C-minus if you tested me then. I just started to really pour my heart into it and I started to share it with our men. These words of Christ started working on me very personally and deeply in my heart.

Dr. James Dobson: When a person is dying, every word he says is significant because he doesn't waste words. When you're in the final hours of your life, what you say is very significant. That's true, certainly, for the last seven things that Christ said on the cross. It's all through the Old Testament, isn't it? The things he says are listed practically in Psalms 22, Psalms 31, and Isaiah has a lot of them.

They’re all throughout the Old Testament, the prophecies going way back. What was fascinating for me, at the end of each chapter, I wanted to find all these scriptures that related to what Jesus said in both the Old and the New Testament prophetically.

I tried to find every last one of them and I put them at the end of each chapter. A pastor or anyone leading a small group could study and go to exactly what he said, each saying, and then find every cross-reference. Where did this come from? Jesus Christ quoted the Word of God, and that didn't change when he went to that cross to bear the sins of the world.

To our listeners who are new to Christianity, you may not understand that the entire Old Testament makes one statement: "He's coming." The entire New Testament says, "He's here." These words link the two together because what he was telling us on the cross there goes back to what the prophets and King David and others have said through 2,000 years of time.

I think it's really neat, Stu, that this book has a foreword written by Dr. David Jeremiah. That’s really quite an honor that a man like that, who's obviously asked to write many forewords, wrote for you. I read it this morning; it's really good.

Stu Epperson Jr.: He was very gracious. All the endorsers—as you and I talked even before the show, Dr. Dobson—these words of Christ have had an impact on a lot of people. Dr. Jeremiah’s foreword goes a little bit in-depth. It's not just, "Hey, my friend Stu wrote a book, go get it." He starts going into the words. I was actually instructed and encouraged by his foreword. That’s where I was going to ask you, of those words from Christ from the cross, which one has touched you or blessed your life as you think about it?

Dr. James Dobson: That's a tough question because all of them have significance for us and for me. But I think maybe the one that stands out for me, of course, the most important is at the end where he says, "It is finished," because what he really meant there is that he provided a remedy for the disease of sin.

It was like a doctor writing a prescription. When he was in his last moments on the cross, he said, "It is finished," meaning the prescription's finished. All you have to do is receive it; all you have to do is take it. If you don't, there is no cure for the disease.

Going back to one of his earlier phrases that has great meaning for me, I talk to a lot of people who are in trouble, who are going through real difficulties. Some of them are dying; some of them are very ill. Some of their kids are ill. Some of them are widows who've lost their husbands. Some of them are men whose businesses have gone bankrupt. There's almost no one who doesn't have a whole string of stuff in their life. That's just the way life is. What do they all say?

Almost every one of them, if they're honest with you, will ask a question: "Why? Why? Why did you do this, Lord? Why would you take my three-year-old daughter to heaven? We loved her, we needed her, you put your blessings on her, we prayed for her before she was born. She came down with this disease and went through all this trauma and is now in heaven and has been taken away. Why?"

Why indeed. There is no answer for that question. God will not be accountable to man. Job asked that question, and I'm telling you, you read that book of Job and you realize how eloquent his questions were. They were beautiful. When he was all finished, the Lord Jehovah said to him, "Who are you to ask me those questions?" He will not answer those questions on this earth. He will on the other side. You may or may not begin to understand what he's doing. But what I appreciate about Jesus' words was that he asked the "why" question too.

Imagine that. The Christ who spoke a word and the whole universe was spun into space, and he is asking God, "Why? Why hast thou forsaken me?" That speaks to me.

Stu Epperson Jr.: This moment Christ is in—we deal with it in the book—it's pitch black in the middle of day and he's hanging there in the darkness. He comes out of that darkness with that question. This question has theologians with tons more degrees than I've ever seen stupefied at why God is asking God "why."

As you mentioned the book of Job, if the book of Job didn't have "why" questions, it would be like two chapters because it's not just Job. It's his wife, all of his buddies asking, "Why did this? Why did you not honor God enough? Why did you not do this? What was wrong with you?"

Why, why, why? Yet here you have at the pinnacle moment in history, the redemption of lost souls. You have the Lamb of God going into the darkness. The cross is an altar and he is laying his life down and he is bearing the ultimate father wound. I've heard you for years, Dr. Dobson, minister to me on the radio about father wounds and dealing with those father wounds that only God the Father can deal with.

Here Jesus Christ, his family by and large has rejected him and forsaken him. So many of his followers that said, "Hosanna, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord," on Palm Sunday, they're wheels up, gone. Everyone's forsaken him except for a very few. Now he says, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Dr. James Dobson: For those listening to us who've had reason to pray that agonizing prayer, "Why, God, why?" remember one of the last conversations between Jesus and God himself involved that question.

Accept it, open your hands. You will not probably figure it out. But it's okay because he's in control and he is blessing you even when you don't realize it.

Stu Epperson Jr.: When he's bearing the pain in that moment, it's almost like all of the evil, the darkness, the pain, the shame of people that have come on this program and talked about their pain and God's healing—all of that bottled up into one nuclear warhead. The wrath of God upon sinners aimed at the friend of sinners.

Jesus Christ is bearing that sin, that darkness, stuff I'd never even say personally to someone or even on the radio. Even close friends wouldn't even share some of this stuff. Jesus Christ can honestly look through us with the tears and the blood flowing down his eyes and say, "I feel your pain." He's bearing that pain and that shame to set us free, to heal us, to bring us out of the bondage of sin.

Dr. James Dobson: Stu, that's why I appreciate your book. Let me share another example of it. After Jesus had died, the next day or two, the disciples were absolutely bewildered. It made no sense to them at all. They had followed this one that they thought was the Messiah and that he was coming in power and glory, and they expected great things from him.

Then they see him hanging on a cross in agony saying, "My God, my God, why?" You know that their heads were spinning. Two of them were walking along on the road to Emmaus and they were trying to make sense out of it all. They were saying, in my words, "What happened here? We followed this man, we saw him heal people, we saw him talk to us about God and about life after death and sin and all the things he said."

"Now all of a sudden he's humiliated, hanging naked on a cross. What has happened? Why?" You know they ask why. Jesus was walking about three feet beside them. He was right there at the time that they were most confused, and their eyes were opened and their hearts burned within them.

Stu Epperson Jr.: That really is what makes Christianity so real. It's the only place, the only context, the only reality where our "why" questions are dealt with head-on by Almighty God on that cross. The Son of God hanging there in our place and he's dealing with those. He takes that pain if we're willing to go there, if we're willing to encounter and if we're willing to allow him in to heal us, to love us, to cover us.

Dr. James Dobson: You mentioned theologians talking about the meaning of that moment when Jesus said, "My God, my God, why?" What have you read?

Stu Epperson Jr.: I've read a lot of these guys. I tell you what, I've had debates with people. Some of these endorsers—we kind of went toe-to-toe because they're saying, "Wait a second, are you saying Jesus stopped being God at that moment? What about the Trinity and all of this?"

I really treaded carefully in the language in here, and I really hope that chapter four is the hardest chapter I've ever written. It opens with a harrowing story about a young man with a perceived debt from his own father. But I quote a lot of theologians and I really had to get some wisdom from a lot smarter guys than me.

Martin Luther came upon that phrase in his study of the New Testament. He came upon those words, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" He stopped and he went into a private room, locked the door, and refused bread and water for a long time. No one's totally clear on how long.

He was prostrate before the scriptures, before Almighty God, wrestling with that verse. He came out of that silence and that isolation and all he could say was, "God forsaken by God, how can this be?" I just kind of let the Word of God speak in that chapter. Fundamentally, theologically, there's some depth and there's some profound things. It's the glory of God to conceal a matter.

But this is kind of cool: Jesus Christ was forsaken at whatever level so that we could be adopted, we could be united, we could be received. He was in darkness so we could be in the light. This was the great exchange, and the height of it and the embodiment and the depth of the atonement was experienced and really reflected in those words.

Dr. James Dobson: Stu, it would be very foolish for me, a mortal man who is not a theologian and doesn't claim to be, to say that that conversation or that statement by Jesus, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" does not bother me now.

The reason is because the way I understand it—and this came from others—the sin of the entire world, from the beginning of Adam and Eve to the final day and the resurrection and everything that will come after, was all laid on Christ and God could not look on it.

He had to turn away because the penalty for sin was being paid in that moment and there was a separation between Jesus and God because of the job that he was doing to prepare the final prescription and be able to say, "It is finished." I don't know if that's the way you understand it, but that's my understanding of it.

Stu Epperson Jr.: Isn't it fascinating that this great mystery, this Christ bearing the curse of our sin, is shrouded from our eyes? It's pitch black in the middle of day. As one author says, it's midnight at midday. There's no astronomical explanation; there's no eclipse going on. It's the full moon because it's the height of Passover, and yet it's lights out.

I believe that it's so mysterious and so profound what the high priest who went in behind the veil to lay down the sacrifice for our sin did, that God shrouded it from our eyes so we couldn't see because it is so profound and so deep what was going on there. Amazing love, how can it be, that thou, my God, shouldst die for me? He never ceased to be God, but he bore the curse of sin and it pleased the Father to bruise him. Isaiah 53.

And the veil was rent. Imagine being there that day. There you are with your mom and dad, your lads and your little girls and boys, and they're pulling their little lambs. They're passing by and what is this awful, ghastly scene? These men—they're unrecognizable. They're hamburger up on this cross and they're hearing all this stuff. They're taking their sacrifice Passover and they're walking right by the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Praise the Lord.

In that next chapter, chapter five, is a blow-by-blow account of Christ's execution. I call it a word of passion. It's graphic. In fact, they had to take a few things out before it went to final proof of your book because they're like, "This is just too over the top." But when you read it, what convicted me is I couldn't remember the last time someone took me through a blow-by-blow account of the physical, the pain, the torture Christ experienced from his betrayal to his final breath.

Dr. James Dobson: Did you see The Passion of the Christ?

Stu Epperson Jr.: Yes, sir. I wanted to do a blow-by-blow account. I go into some real detail. R.C. Sproul says in his commentary on John that those spikes in his head, the crown of thorns, some of those were 12 inches long. Imagine that thrust into the Savior's head. What's fascinating is that is laid open. It's daylight when that stuff's going on for all of us to see the Son of God laid bare in full daylight for the physical suffering.

Dr. James Dobson: And then three hours in the dark.

Stu Epperson Jr.: Three hours in pitch black. None of us can see or could even fathom what was going on in the pitch black. Think about the emotional suffering of the Son of God. Think about how many times, Dr. Dobson, you said, "I would all day long take that injury that Ryan suffered. I would—how many parents have said—all day long, I would take my kid's cancer. All day long, I would step on that IED so that my son over in Iraq wouldn't have to go through that painful thing."

Because there's an emotional—and that's the depth, the gravity of that. But we do know that there is a depth of pain, and that's why I called it a word of pain.

Dr. James Dobson: Is it your understanding that that conversation or that statement by Jesus, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" occurred in the darkness?

Stu Epperson Jr.: It occurred as he's coming out of that darkness.

Dr. James Dobson: He's been there for three hours alone in that agony. Oh, my. He paid that price for me.

Stu Epperson Jr.: It’s an exclamation. It's the only words we have to describe that darkness and to describe the price paid, which was far greater. You look at how he was just brutally tortured. These executioners were well-oiled, trained machines to extract the maximum amount of pain. They knew what veins not to cut. They knew what not to get so that this crucifixion victim would suffer to the nth degree. And yet the pain Christ suffered, the deep spiritual pain, is far greater, with no comparison.

Dr. James Dobson: We’re out of time. We’re just going to have to pick this up next time. But there are seven phrases, seven things that Jesus said on the cross. We dealt with one of them today, but let’s pick up with number one next time.

Roger Marsh: The last words of a dying man do carry extraordinary weight. And when that final man is the Son of God, every syllable changes everything. You're listening to Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk and a rich conversation Dr. Dobson had with Stu Epperson Jr. about the profound meaning behind Christ's final words from the cross.

If you'd like to hear today's program again or to share it with someone preparing their heart for Easter this coming Sunday, visit JDFI.net. Once there, you'll also find information about Stu Epperson's book, The Last Words of Jesus: First Steps to a Richer Life.

Speaking of Easter, this Sunday is one of the most significant days on the Christian calendar. We want to help you and your family make the most of it. So we've gathered a collection of Easter resources right here on our website to help you reflect on the resurrection and what it means for your life today.

Whether you're preparing for a family gathering, leading a discussion at church, or simply looking for a way to go deeper in your own faith this week, these resources are designed to meet you right where you are. To access them, just visit JDFI.net.

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I'm Roger Marsh. From all of us here at Family Talk and the James Dobson Family Institute, thanks so much for listening today. On our next broadcast, Dr. Dobson and Stu Epperson Jr. will pick up right where they left off, working through the remaining words Jesus spoke from the cross. They'll explore his tender words to his mother Mary and the cry that reveals just how fully human and fully divine our Savior truly was. You will not want to miss it, so be sure to join us right here for the next edition of Dr. James Dobson's Family Talk, the voice you trust for the family you love.

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