Today's Word Radio

Brett Meador: The thing I love about Zechariah is he's giving clarity through these strange dreams, but he's giving clarity by what's going to happen. Instead of without vision, the people have vision because Zechariah's sharing it with them.

Guest (Male): Pastor Brett Meador with the lesson of Zechariah to let God's Word be your guide.

Brett Meador: And so they can say, "Here's why we're in captivity for 70 years in Babylon. Here's why we're told to go and rebuild the wall in Jerusalem and the temple. Here's why we're supposed to do this," and the prophets gave them clear direction.

Guest (Male): The Book of Zechariah begins with a series of unusual visions or dreams God gave the prophet Zechariah. But as Pastor Brett Meador has shared, when the prophet's visions are reconciled with the rest of Scripture, we can begin to make sense of them and glean information about Jesus, God's plan for Jerusalem, and the coming millennial kingdom found in today's word.

Brett Meador: Zechariah chapter 1, so why don't you turn there at this time? One of the things that we should remember is the value and importance of vision. But one of the things I've noticed is people get all weirded out when it comes to things about vision and dreams. I know that the Bible talks about that, but one of the scriptures we probably know most when it comes to the idea of vision is Proverbs 29:18, "Where there is no vision, the people," as it says, "they perish, but he that keepeth the law, happy is he."

You might say, "Brett, what does keeping the law have to do with vision? Why are those two things put together in this Proverbs text?" Well, it's funny because I think there are a couple of words there: perish and also the word vision. These are kind of important words when it comes to this whole idea. The word perish, by the way, in the Hebrew text is parah, which means to let go, to let loose. Like if you had a wild animal and you finally let it go, you let it loose. That's what this word perish means.

Now, there is a little bit of a connotation in the Hebrew word of it letting something go to its own demise. It's like when you were on the old farm if you ever saw a chicken with its head cut off. I actually saw that. Did you guys see that? That's a real thing. If you grew up on a farm and you let it go, it just goes, but it's to its own demise. That's kind of the idea. A chicken with its head cut off? Yeah, the Hebrew word to perish through wild, wandering paths. That sounds like a chicken with its head cut off.

Now you say, "Well, what path is the idea of vision?" Well, for many years, this proverb has been misinterpreted, I think, largely in the sense that people think that the translation means that a wise person must have a five, ten, or twenty-year plan with vision and clarity of where they're going, what they're going to do, their future, or their organization. And that's how they take the meaning of this text. You've got to have vision. And I get that, and I guess you could make that argument.

But the idea is more not one's ability to formulate goals or have plans for your business's vision and future. That's not as much the idea as the word vision is a synonym for the prophetic word itself. In other words, without vision, the word from the prophetic, the prophecy of the Word of God is the idea there. I say that because we're talking about the prophets. We're talking about Zechariah the prophet, and he's giving visions that are actually the Word of God. We understand that because they made the canon of Scripture.

And so these visions of Zechariah are actually the Word of God, and it gives direction. You can almost say it like this: without the blueprint of the Bible to show us how to go, how to act, and where to go, we'd be like chickens with our heads cut off. It's not as much the vision, like a five-year or ten-year plan, or that you have some vision while you're dreaming at night. It's not as much that as the Word of God is the main thing. Now, it just so happens Zechariah has these visions while he's asleep, and these become the Word of God.

But one thing I want to say about that is you can always trust the Word of God as vision and direction. You can't always trust your personal dreams and visions. I've had people come up to me, "Pastor Brett, I had a dream." "Well, what was your dream?" "I'm supposed to be the pastor at Athey Creek." I've actually had a guy tell me that. He wanted me to hand the keys to the church over. I was like, "Well, that's not going to happen. Get out of my face."

That was about 20 years ago when that happened. So I'm thankful that that didn't happen and his vision was just the pizza that he had the night before that he saw. But as it turns out, there are legitimate people who have real visions and what have you. But the idea of the Word of God being the vision, the prophetic word for you and me, I love the safety of that. I'll always let the Word be the standard and not somebody's dream.

Now, how do you test a dream that somebody has? With the Word of God. And if it goes outside of the Word of God, then that dream is not of the Lord. If it's a question mark and you're not sure if the dream is with the Word or not, then you have to wait and let the Lord confirm. I've always been troubled by some of these people, and there are even denominations in churches that really go heavy on visions and dreams, and they get kind of weird. I've seen it when I was younger. There were a lot of people in our church that used to do this as a kid.

I remember there was a trend in the '70s where these brand-new Christians, "I had a dream and a vision," and they'd walk up to the prettiest girl in church, "The Lord told me you're supposed to marry me." And I always would tell the young girls, "Make sure and tell them, 'Well, the Lord hasn't told me that yet, so I'll wait till I have my vision and dream to confirm.'" But people get weird about this stuff, so watch out for that.

But the thing I love about Zechariah is he's giving clarity through these strange dreams, but he's giving clarity about what's going to happen. And instead of without vision or knowing, the people have vision because Zechariah is sharing it with them. And so they're not running around like chickens with their heads cut off. They can say, "Here's why we're in captivity for 70 years in Babylon. Here's why we're told to go and rebuild the wall in Jerusalem and the temple. Here's why we're supposed to do this and that," and the prophets gave them clear direction.

I think it's important for us to always let the Word, let the Word be your guide. What a great compass. The Bible says in Psalm 119, "Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path." And if you feel like you're wandering, watch out. If you feel like you're running around with a chicken with its head cut off, maybe it's time to get a little clear vision from the Word of God. It starts with just a little wandering, and then it turns out to a lot of wandering, and then it turns out to a bunch of wondering, "Where am I? Who am I? Why am I even here?" And people lack that kind of vision.

So it's a good thing to examine yourself, especially after reading the Word. When we read the Word, I hope we're not like that guy that's in James chapter 1. Remember the person in James 1:23 that looks in the mirror? The Word is compared to like a mirror. When you read the Word, it's like looking in a mirror. He says, "For if any man be a hearer of the Word and not a doer, he's like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass or a mirror. For he beholdeth himself and goes his way and straightway forgets what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty," that's the Word of God that brings liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed."

Do you want to be blessed in your deeds, the things you do? Then be a doer of the Word and getting direction, vision, clarity, and for the future, knowing what's going to happen. This is great stuff. So basically, here in Zechariah, we saw Zechariah fell into a deep sleep, and he's having eight visions in one night. And that's something that we're going to see. These visions, as we've looked at two of them even a little bit out of order, so we've got to do some repackaging.

But question before we go on: does the Lord still speak through dreams? I don't want to totally diminish that idea. And the answer is yes, he does. So don't always dismiss dreams. I do think that when the Lord uses a dream, it is different than perhaps the typical dreams that you have. Maybe there's a sense of more meaning behind it. Maybe there's a sense of weightiness to it. I can't really articulate that. But we do know what the Bible says in Acts chapter 2. Peter gave that sermon. He said it'll come to pass in the last days, which I believe we're living in the last days.

It says, "In the last days, saith God, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions and your old men shall dream dreams." Prophecy, which is a word of edification, exhortation, and comfort, that's prophecy. Visions, the Lord's giving a vision of what is to come. And dreams speak of things with meaning that they're meant to be seen, but also we should always test them to see if they're of the Lord or not. Confirmation from the Lord, confirmation from the Word.

Now, in Zechariah's dreams, one of the things we showed you, just as a quick review, I mentioned before that some people say there are ten visions instead of eight. And some people would argue with me on that one. Here's my single argument that I'm going to... do you remember the pattern that I showed of each one of these visions that Zechariah has? There's sort of a pattern of what we see in each one. And this is where I think the confusion lies.

And there were four patterns. It always starts with the introductory words of each vision. Then there's a description of what he saw. And then there was a question always asked, and then there was an explanation or answer to that question and an explanation of what the vision was. And we see this as a pattern. This is why I count those as eight instead of ten. There are a couple I can see why they might be tempted to split up two visions. Perhaps even the second one some people might even say is two, and I'll show you in a second why.

But we saw the first vision, verses 7 all the way through 17. We called that the rider in the myrtle trees. And the operative thing there was we had the one who was in the myrtle trees, that was Jesus watching the Jews, the people of Israel. And there were angels riding around on horses. And they were seeing the nations were at rest or living in peace. And you think, "Oh, that's so wonderful," but it wasn't.

The question was raised: how much longer will the enemies of Israel live in peace while Israel's under their oppression? That was the question and the answer that we found was the Lord was saying not much longer, that he's going to come and comfort them and deliver them and protect them. That was the first vision, which is actually a really good thing for Israel, the Lord's protection upon them. And we saw that vision number one: the rider in the myrtle trees.

Vision number two, and we'll call this one the vision of the four horns. If you want, you can call it the vision of the four horns and the carpenters, the four carpenters, if you want. This is why some people call this two visions, but I see them as one, and I'll show you in a second why. So the vision of the four horns or the vision of the four horns and the four carpenters, you make the choice on your notes. But all that to say, let's read verse 18.

It says, "Then I lifted up mine eyes and saw, and behold four horns. And I said unto the angel that talked with me, 'What be these?' And he answered me, 'These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.' And the Lord showed me four carpenters. Then said I, 'What come these to do?' And he spake saying, 'These are the horns which have scattered Judah, so that no man did lift up his head. But these,' the carpenters, 'are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of the Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to scatter it.'"

So you've got some horns and some carpenters. You say, "Brett, I'm totally lost. That's whack-o. What in the world is the Bible talking about?" Well, there are some things we've got to remember. And if you've been through Bible study with me for very long, one of the things you start to see is biblical typology, and there are symbols that you start to recognize. So let's see if you guys remember. What is the horn in these visions and prophecies? When we say, "What does it mean?" Power, authority, and often specifically of two main things: nations or even the leaders of those nations.

So like if you remember in the book of Daniel, you've got the ten horns, but then you've got a little horn that rises up. Remember that? And even in the book of Revelation, it talks about... and we know the little horn is, if you read through the story, it's the Antichrist. So there are these world leaders that are the authority or the powers. The horn was the speaking of that authority. It's a weird image for us because unless you grew up on a farm with horned goats or a ram with horns, it doesn't seem that powerful.

But if you've ever been butted by a ram with horns, you know what in Bible times you're like, "That's a good symbol of power." Has anybody ever been butted hard by a goat or a ram with horns? I saw a few hands like, "Yep, that was me." It's not a pleasant experience. I'd almost rather get kicked by a horse. Some of these rams and stuff, these things have some power. And so in biblical times, that was the symbol, like a ram's horn smashing with power and the authority. So it speaks of the nations or world leaders.

Okay, so we can kind of already zoom in. We're talking about probably four nations or four leaders of those nations. And then we'll talk about the carpenters in a second. Let's first identify or at least attempt to identify the four nations that are being referred to here by Zechariah. There are three main interpretations I'm going to give you, and I'm not going to land on one particular one. Maybe all of them are right because if you recall in prophecy, sometimes there are dual fulfillments of prophecy. Maybe that's part of the deal.

In fact, one of the three actually fits in with the other one as a dual fulfillment. I'll show you what I mean. But let me just kind of go over this a little bit. Historically, some people take a more historical view. When Zechariah says these four horns or nations, they follow kind of what happened. You had the Assyrians. Remember when Rab-shakeh did the trashtalking and all those guys, Sennacherib as we call him? Remember that whole thing? The Assyrians, that might be horn number one. And then you had the Medo-Persians, and then the Babylonians, and then the Egyptians.

So historically, in Zechariah's time, you might even be able to say these were the ones who are the four horns. And that's more of a historical view. But if you look at it more in a prophetic light, prophetically speaking, you might tie it in better to the Daniel chapter 2 nations that are talked about. Remember the statue that Nebuchadnezzar dreamed? And there were really the Babylonians, the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greeks, and the Romans. Remember the head of gold was Babylon, shoulders and arms of silver were the Medo-Persian Empire, and the belly of brass would be Alexander the Great, the Greeks, and then the legs, the iron legs would be Rome, the Roman Empire.

And so this could be following those four horns, prophetically speaking, following Daniel chapter 2. That could be, too. So one's more historical from Zechariah's point of view, but one's more prophetic, speaking of those coming nations that the prophecies of the Bible speak of. But there's a third one that's also prophetic, but some say it's way off in the future, more like in our time. And this might be that dual fulfillment if the Daniel 2 four nations are mentioned.

What if we're talking about four nations that are mentioned in a future role where they're going to cause Israel trouble? And some will say that this next chapter actually starts to speak of the prophecy of Ezekiel 38 and 39, which is the great prophecy of the Gog Magog invasion. And there's a confederation of nations. Boy, it sure is interesting to watch what's going on, by the way, in the world right now. You know, people are so focused on Russia and Ukraine, and understandably so, and we pray for them daily. And it's a horrible situation, the whole thing is horrible.

But as a Bible prophecy person, we don't really see the Ukrainian-Russian conflict as something that's significant prophetically as much as what is Gog Magog going to do in the future, the leader of Russia and the country of Russia? And then its confederation of nations, and it includes Iran and Turkey and even Sudan, and there's a list of nations there that we could talk about. But why is Russia putting more troops in Syria at the northern border of Israel? And if you know the Gog Magog scenario, Russia, the Bible says at some point in the future, will attack Israel.

And right now, you kind of say, "Well, there's no reason for them to attack Israel," but it's almost like he's looking for a reason to go and be enemies with Israel, which is kind of interesting. But I digress and I'm way off course, I probably shouldn't even have gone there. Okay, so it's possible that those four nations could be futuristic Gog Magog nations that go against Israel, that will then raise up these four carpenters. Now, let's talk about the carpenters. This word could be somewhat deceiving to us.

The Hebrew word here is charash for the word carpenter, which there's several different meanings. One is a fabricator, an artificer, skilled craftsman, blacksmith even is used that word. Someone who's good with their hands making stuff. But if you look up in the Strong's Dictionary, there's a second meaning. There's an interesting word that is a second definition: this word charash, which means skillful to destroy. Skillful to destroy. That actually fits. Well, who's skillful to destroy? Well, as it turns out, don't you love watching these things? Like there's people that are really good at demolition, like making buildings fall and that's a skill.

I could watch this all day long, watching these huge buildings go down and stuff like that. So the carpenters could be several things here, possibilities. They could be the Medo-Persian Empire, the craftsman number one who would eventually destroy the nations that cause Israel trouble. Let's go back to our text and I'll show you why I'm saying this. Verse 21: "The Lord showed me four carpenters. Then said I, 'What come these to do?'" I like the King James there. What come these to do? And he spake saying, "These are the horns which have scattered Judah."

So any nation that caused the Jews to scatter, which we could talk about those four horns... remember, the Babylonians, the Medo-Persians, any of those groups that caused Jews to scatter, those are the four horns which have scattered Judah. "But these," the carpenters, middle of verse 21, "are those that come to fray them," or to defeat them, "to cast out the horns of the Gentiles," the non-Jewish nations that have caused the Jews trouble, these carpenters are coming to destroy them or take them out of commission, "which lifted up their horn," that is their power, their authority, "over the land of Judah," specifically Judah around Jerusalem.

Some people say the Lord used the Medo-Persians, craftsman number one, to destroy the Babylonians, which they did. Remember Belshazzar and the handwriting on the wall? Maybe that's craftsman number one. Some say craftsman number two would be the Greeks who then destroyed the Medo-Persians. And then craftsman number three, the Roman, who came in and ultimately wiped out the Greeks. So then what about craftsman number four? Who is that? Don't know for sure.

But do you remember if we are following some of Daniel's prophecies, which Zechariah seems to be doing as we're reading this, there's an interesting thing about the Roman Empire. Who conquered the Roman Empire? Anybody? No one conquered the Roman Empire. In fact, they never were really defeated. The Roman Empire is still active in a way. That's why it's interesting in Daniel's statue of Daniel chapter 2, or I should call it Nebuchadnezzar's statue... do you remember the old Roman Empire went to iron legs and then what happened?

It went to feet of part iron, part clay, and it didn't mix very well. Remember that whole thing? And it says in the days of those ten toes of those feet of iron and clay, it talks about the last days of the end of the world. So it's still the old Roman Empire, which is still active today. You might even call Europe the old Roman Empire, or maybe even look at it like the European Union is somewhat of the Roman Empire. But in the days of those ten toes or kings, the prophecy goes, the Lord would cut a stone without hands.

You say, "Brett, what are you talking about?" Well, this is Daniel 2 and let me just quickly review this. "In the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Forasmuch as thou sawest the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands." Who's the stone there? Jesus, not cut with hands, not a man-made kingdom.

This is Jesus, a stone cut without hands comes down the mountain, it says, and broke in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver. That's all those empires. And the gold. And the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter. The dream is certain, the interpretation thereof is sure. Could it be that carpenter number four is actually Jesus? That's an interesting thing to ask because Jesus is the one who's going to ultimately destroy the Roman Empire, that mixture of iron and clay in the ten toes in the last days, the Bible says, and set up his kingdom.

So that's just something to think about. I wouldn't die on this battlefield of this, but this is an interesting possibility of the fourth carpenter. If that doesn't work, then you might have to try to figure out, well, who are the carpenters? Aren't they a singing group from the '70s? Yes, but that's probably not part of this vision. So there you have it, the carpenters and the horns. That's the vision number two that we've looked at. So interesting. By the way, vision one was to protect Israel. Vision number two: who will protect Israel? The craftsman or the carpenters with the hammer is the idea there. They're going to destroy or demolition. Demolition day is the idea with these carpenters.

Guest (Male): Pastor Brett Meador pausing in Today's Word Radio, having drawn important insights of the second dream of the prophet Zechariah, the vision of the four horns and the four carpenters. And I invite you to stay right there as Pastor Brett will join me here in a moment. If you've missed any portion of our time today, you'll find all of his messages online at todayswordradio.com. That's todayswordradio.com. Our vision on Today's Word is to proclaim the hope of salvation and help people know Jesus through careful study of the Bible. We invite you to find out more by going to todayswordradio.com. I also want to mention that Brett Meador is the senior pastor of Athey Creek Church, just outside of Portland, Oregon. And in addition to the main Athey Creek campus in West Linn, we also have locations in Hillsboro and McMinnville, Oregon. For more information, just go to todayswordradio.com and click on the link "Locations." All right, I have Pastor Brett with me now.

Brett, as we've been studying the book of Zechariah, it really amazes me how this prophet, who lived about 500 years before the Apostle John had his revelation, revealing many things that would be written about by John in the book of Revelation.

Brett Meador: Don't you love it, how the Bible... one of the best commentaries on the Bible is the Bible. And I think that happens with this book. In Zechariah, we see visions of horns and lampstands, olive trees, craftsmen, all the stuff that a lot of people think, "Well, that's kind of strange stuff." But right in the middle of it, we see one of the most beautiful pictures in the Old Testament: Joshua the High Priest standing there before the Lord in filthy garments.

And that really is us. That's humanity in our sin. And I love how the Lord removes our filthy garments, clothes us, and replaces them with clean ones. Like Isaiah says, we're robed in His righteousness. And that's salvation. That's justification. That's where we get that famous line, "Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts." And Zechariah really shows us God's full plan of redemption through Christ. It's always been about grace, always about the Messiah, and Zechariah points us right in that direction, and it really lines up with the Book of Revelation in that way.

Guest (Male): Thank you, Brett, for giving us that summary of the prophet in the book that shares his name, Zechariah. Well, if you'd like more information about this Today's Word Radio program or Pastor Brett Meador, just go to todayswordradio.com. And that's all the time we have. Next time, Pastor Brett will look at a promise from a vision given to the prophet Zechariah from God.

Today's Word with Pastor Brett Meador is an outreach of Athey Creek Church in West Linn, Oregon.