The Voice of the Martyrs

Päivi Räsänen: In Finland, we have long roots in Christianity in these countries. Our legislation, our culture, it has the foundation of Christian values. Now we are living in that kind of breakdown of this view of man. I think that it is some kind of rebellion against Christianity. The churches and the Christians have been too silent. They have been afraid.

Todd Nettleton: Welcome again to The Voice of the Martyrs Radio. My name is Todd Nettleton, and we are on the road this week in Finland. We are going to have a very fascinating conversation about persecution in a Western democracy. Maybe that sounds like a foreign story or a crazy story, but it is a true story.

We are here this week with Päivi Räsänen. She has been a member of Parliament in Finland since 1995, so over 30 years in Parliament. She is the former Minister of the Interior. She is also a medical doctor, a mother of five, and a grandmother of 12. She is now a convicted criminal under Finland's law dealing with war crimes and crimes against humanity. If that sounds unbelievable, it is. But it is true.

Päivi, welcome to The Voice of the Martyrs Radio. It is such an honor to meet you. Your story is going out around the world. This has to do with some of the things you've written, some of the things you posted about homosexuality. It seems like that's sort of a line in the sand in this battle for truth in our world right now. If we go back to when you first learned you were being criminally charged, did you think it was a joke? Did you feel like someone was playing a prank on you? What was your response?

Päivi Räsänen: In fact, it was so unbelievable. I thought that it was a joke when I read it from the main newspaper. This whole legal case, this process, started over seven years ago. I have been open about my faith, about my Christian convictions, also about marriage and gender and family, human dignity, during all my public career. I could never believe that these views would be criminal some day in Finland.

We had in Finland that kind of situation that the Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Church, which is the main church in Finland—over 60% of Finnish people belong to that church—the leadership of the church, the bishops, decided to support Pride Parade seven years ago. It was shocking. I was so worried that if bishops take that kind of stand, they are undermining people's trust in the Bible. Then it is not only a question about marriage or gender, but it is also about the way to salvation. If people can't believe in the Bible, what God speaks there, how can they believe in the atonement of Jesus, what he has done for us? Especially I thought that also especially to these sexual and gender minorities, it is important that they can hear also the truth of the Bible.

I was praying on my knees that what should I do now? Should I resign the church or what is it now? Many of my friends left the church. I got a very clear vision that it is not my time now to jump out of the sinking boat of the church, but to speak aloud so that some who are there in danger would wake up. I took a photo from the Bible, from the book of Romans. It was there in front of me and the Apostle Paul teaches about these issues, first chapter, verses 24 to 27, and made a Twitter update, a Twitter message. After that, some citizen made a criminal complaint about this and police started to investigate the case. I read about it in our newspaper and I thought that it can't be true that they are now suspecting me of a crime.

Todd Nettleton: I want to emphasize you posted the scripture. It wasn't you saying, "Here's what I think." You simply posted a picture of those verses from Romans, and that was seen as a criminal act.

Päivi Räsänen: Yes. I made there a question to the bishops. I targeted it to the leadership of the church: how does this passage of the Bible fit to your support to Pride event, to lift up something that the Bible calls sin and shame to a matter of pride? This was my question there with that photo from the Bible. I thought that it must be some mistake. There is on the summertime working some summer journalist.

I phoned the police and asked what is it going on? They said, "Yes, we have started to investigate you." After that, when it came to public because I'm a public figure in Finland, then there came more and more criminal complaints. Someone had found this old booklet, *Male and Female He Created Them*, that I had written already in 2004. It is a church booklet. It has not been in sale. I have never put it, for example, to my social media or some web pages. Then there were all together five of my writings and interviews that the police started to investigate, so many criminal complaints.

Todd Nettleton: It is important to say this booklet was written before the law was passed that you are accused under. The booklet was published in 2004, and it was for your church. It wasn't like for everyone; it wasn't out in bookstores. It was like a Sunday school curriculum, as I understand it.

Päivi Räsänen: Yes. We have a small Lutheran confessional church in Finland, and they asked me to write for their educational purposes just for small parishes. The law was passed just in 2011, and this was written in 2004. I could never imagine that there would be something against that law. I have been in Parliament during that time, and it never came to my mind that I have written something that would be against that law that was accepted in Parliament.

I was interrogated all together for 13 hours, three times in a small interrogation room in a police station. It was a very odd situation because there was the Bible on the table and the police was asking me very biblical questions. He asked what is the message of the first chapter of the book of Romans? What is the message of these verses? How do you explain the word of sin?

Todd Nettleton: It's like a Bible study in the interrogation room.

Päivi Räsänen: In fact, there was a joke in social media that Päivi Räsänen is once again going to have a Bible study at the police station. It was a nice policeman. We had very nice hours, and I could explain all the message of the gospel to him because he asked also what is the message of the book of Romans? In fact, in my youth, it was the most important book where I found the message of the gospel, where I found what Jesus has really done for me. It was so wonderful to explain it also to that policeman.

He didn't find any crime. He wrote a big statement, all together 11 pages and sentence by sentence, he explained and said there was no criminal, no illegal. He said this is a legal booklet.

Todd Nettleton: So you're thinking, "Okay, great. We're done."

Päivi Räsänen: Yes. But then the Prosecutor General ordered the police to continue, and the Prosecutor General filed up charges against me in this booklet case, in the case of that Twitter update, and also there was a radio interview: "What would Jesus think?" That was that kind of the title.

Todd Nettleton: Was that on a secular radio outlet or a church one?

Päivi Räsänen: It was secular. But it was about Christianity, so the interviewer wanted to hear what I think. It was a nice interview. He is not a believer; he's a very secular man, the interviewer. But he said that because the Christmas is coming, he wanted to interview me and hear what I think about Jesus. But he also asked about gender issues. It was almost one hour interview, and there was two minutes that the prosecutor thought that they are illegal.

Todd Nettleton: When the police were questioning you, were they saying, "Do you hate gay people?" Or were they saying, "Did you say this? Did you really say this?" Where does it cross over into being a crime?

Päivi Räsänen: It was mainly about sin, because I have said that it is sin to have same-sex relationships. They wanted to prove, and the prosecutor wanted to prove, that if I say that the homosexual acts, sexual acts, are sinful, then it means that I think that these people are inferior to other people. This was during all these seven years; it was the main point.

Even though I said, and I have said it in that booklet and I have said it many times and it is my deep conviction that I explained to the police and in court, that I believe—and it is my conviction—that God has created all people equal. We are all created as the image of God, and we are equal. We are also all sinners in front of God. That's also in Romans. I have read it many times in court that we are sinners and we are not allowed to condemn anyone because we also are.

When we speak about sin, it is something between God and man. It is not we think some people are inferior to other people because of some certain sin. But I said also that if we believe in God, if we speak about God, it is God who says what is sin. It is not us humans. We do not decide.

Todd Nettleton: So the policeman interviews you and he says there's no criminal act here. The prosecutor decides, "We're going to charge you anyway." They take you to court. You get found innocent. Then the prosecutor decides, "We're still going to go." They take you to the appeals court. You get found innocent again. The prosecutor won't give up. They appeal to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court earlier this year decided, "Oh, actually you're guilty." At what point do you start to feel like, "Is this ever going to end?" Did you become discouraged at any point along all those stops?

Päivi Räsänen: At every step, I have thought that now this is the end. "Now we're done." I'm so happy that I didn't know that it takes so long time when this started. But now it continues, because I have appealed to the European Court of Human Rights and I don't know how many years it will take. The first step is that they decide do they take this case or not? The answer may come any day. I don't know. But if they take the case, then it may take half a year, one year, even seven years. Nobody knows. We started this process in 2019, and we don't know when it's going to end. I just hope that I'm alive because I'm not so young anymore.

Todd Nettleton: It seems like in a lot of Western countries, this issue of human sexuality and gender identity, that's where this battle is happening. That's where people are having to decide: do I stand on scriptural truth, or do I go along with society? Why do you think that's the issue so much where this is happening? Why won't the other side—in your case, the prosecutor—why won't they compromise on that? Why is it that issue that's so dividing us?

Päivi Räsänen: It is really dividing in Finland and also in other post-Christian Western countries. I think that because we have in Finland and, for example, in European countries, we have long roots in Christianity in these countries. Our legislation, our culture, it has the foundation of Christian values and Christian view of man. Now we are living in that kind of breakdown of this worldview and view of man. I think that it is some kind of rebellion against Christianity.

We are living in a time of this woke ideology, or whatever we want to call it, feminist and LGBT ideology that wants to create a different kind of picture and view of man that not God-created, not created as male and female, and so on. Now we are living in that kind of time when these Christian views of man are challenged. In fact, this booklet, this says it quite exactly. There is said that homosexual relationships challenge the Christian concept of humanity. It is not only homosexual relationships; it is all this new ideology that is challenging. Now they are not only happy to have these new ideas; they would like to silence the Christian voice. They would like to ban these biblical ideas. So it is some kind of totalitarian ideology, a new religion, I think from my point of view.

We can see, for example, Finland, if we think about the Pride events, the church leadership is there. Most of our parties and businesses and also in many ways the ministries and so on. As Christians, we have to understand that. We are in a post-Christian society. We need to be ready to articulate what we believe and why we believe it and what the scripture says. One of the challenges of so-called hate speech laws is that they're often based on people's feelings. "Someone felt offended, so therefore you broke the law," rather than what you said was not true or based on some objective standard. You're obviously a member of Parliament. You think about laws and legal things. Why is that so dangerous to base a law on somebody's feelings as opposed to some objective baseline that we can all agree on?

Päivi Räsänen: It is really dangerous because when we have these kinds of laws that are so vague, they are so difficult to know beforehand that what is legal and what is illegal. What is the line between what is criminal and what is legal? For example, in my case, if we think about these high authorities in Finland, there have been altogether 12 judges deciding this case, and nine of them didn't find any crime. Three of them did, because in Supreme Court it was a close vote. It was three to two. Also the presenting judge, who was not allowed to vote, she was in favor of me.

If our judges even in Supreme Court and in courts they can't agree what is legal and what is illegal, how could an ordinary citizen know where is the line? Now this ruling of Supreme Court, it has created in Finland some kind of fear. I have got messages even from pastors who ask that "What can we say now? Where is the line?" I just encourage that speak just what the word of God says. The more we are silent about these biblical doctrines and biblical teachings, the narrower becomes the space for these freedoms.

I think that in Finland we are now in that point where we are because the churches and the Christians have been too silent. They have been afraid to teach about these contradictory issues that are attacked nowadays. Because we don't know where the law is, we self-censor. We don't say anything that might even be close to the line because we don't know where the line is. So we're even more quiet when we really should be more bold.

I want to remind that I also won in Supreme Court because my Twitter case, that was what I won. So it is now it is legal to post Romans. It's okay to post the scripture. But it was the booklet that the Supreme Court—and I would say that in booklet in fact I can read the passage what is the core point because the Supreme Court said so—this is a citing: "In the text, homosexuals are not treated as equal in value to heterosexuals because homosexuality is not regarded as a natural variation of sexuality and is described as sexually deviant." This is the point that they try to show. They said again, and this is so false, this is not true, because I have not treated homosexuals as inferior. I have said it very clearly here that they are equal.

That is also the point why I think that it is so important now to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights, because this is about the Christian view of man. If you read the Bible, in the beginning when God created human beings, he created them male and female and he intended the marriage between one man and one wife. He didn't create homosexual relationships. That's why it is a deviation; it is not a normal variation. I said this again, even though the Supreme Court said that it is illegal to say so that it is deviation. I should say, they said that I should say, that homosexuality is a normal variation of God-created sexuality. But it is not what the Bible teaches. It is not what Apostle Paul teaches in the book of Romans.

Todd Nettleton: I'm curious to know—and you mentioned you're glad you didn't know at the beginning how long this would drag on—but how did you prepare to be willing to stand strong? "This is what the Bible says. This is true. I don't care what the court says. I don't care what the police say." How did you get yourself ready for that spiritually and mentally and emotionally?

Päivi Räsänen: I have to say that I was so convinced what is the teaching of the Bible. In fact, it was also in this police interrogation when the police each time, three times, he asked me three times that "Would you take off these writings and apologize what you have said?" He gave me two weeks' time to apologize. But I said to him that I do not need the time. I will stand behind these teachings because they are not only my opinions; they are what the word of God says, and that's why I will stand behind these teachings. If I had said, "Sure, I'm sorry I said that," this all would have gone away instantly. He offered it. I was there three times interrogated, and in the end of each interrogation, he gave me this option. Just apologize and say you didn't mean it, and this will all go away.

I have felt all the time very, very clearly and very deeply that this has been in God's hands. This has been my calling to fight for these important freedoms in democracy: freedom of speech, freedom of faith, not only because of me but because of all Christians in Finland and as well as in Europe now because this is now a Europe-wide case. Also, I have been so amazed, so surprised how good care God has kept me during these years. When I was young and I read the Bible and I read when Jesus talked about, for example, these occasions when you have to go to court and so on, I could never imagine that it could happen in my time, in my country, in this society.

But I have seen how concrete the promises of Jesus are. He has given every time me the possibility to bear witness to Jesus. In front of police, in courts, I have had the possibility to tell the message of gospel, what is the solution in the Bible to the problem of sin, because I have been asked it. Then also from press conferences which have been live broadcast from courthouse and houses and so on. I have been so encouraged that I have got many messages from people, especially from young people, that I was praying there seven years ago, praying for them and their faith. When they have followed this case, it has encouraged them to read the Bible, to pray, and also some have told that they have found Christ.

I have had possibilities in podcasts, in radio programs, in TV programs, also to say that "If you do not yet know Jesus, you can pray him and ask him to your life." I have got phone calls from young people who have told that they prayed after the program and "Now I have been Christian since that." Also some people from LGBT background. It has been so encouraging, so I have thought that it has not been in vain to be in this process. This has some purpose in God's hands, and he is so awesome to turn evil things to good things so that many people could be saved.

Todd Nettleton: What's been the most discouraging time, or have there been times where you've really been discouraged and felt like, "Lord, this is too much, I don't want this"?

Päivi Räsänen: Yes, there have been also dark moments during these years. For example, I was very nervous before the first district court trial. I had headache; I couldn't sleep in the night before that trial. And it should be said that your punishment was a fine, but potentially you could have been sent to prison. Potentially, but the prosecutor was not demanding me to prison. But it would be possible according to our law.

When I came to the courthouse, in front of the courthouse, there was a demonstration there in front of that, and Christian friends were there singing powerful hymns and so on. It took my migraine away, and I just could thank that "Thank Lord that I can be here just here and now." Of course, I have to say that especially after the conviction from the Supreme Court, it was a deep disappointment. I was expecting victory. I had written just a speech of victory. So I couldn't use my speech. I had to go there without speech, and I have to say that I was disappointed, really, that why? Because it would have been so easy for God to turn it three to two in favor of me. But it was not.

But then I thought it is your will, not mine. I think that this is still in God's hands. Many of Jesus's promises have become to me—I have so now during these years that they are more concrete than I imagined beforehand. For example, when Jesus promised that if you lose something, you will get 100 times more. I have got at least 100 times more because of this process. I have got so many wonderful friends all around the world, as well as you now here. I would not have met you without this. I have many times said to my husband that I should be thankful to the prosecutor because it has given so many good things to my life and also to many people. I'm grateful for God.

I want to encourage people in Finland and in Europe that you should not be afraid of these little adversaries that we have here. That's why I want to encourage that now it is time to speak openly about Jesus and about what the Bible teaches.

Todd Nettleton: We listeners like to pray. We've talked about the fact you've filed an appeal with the European Court of Human Rights, so we can pray about that process and pray for justice there. How can we pray for you? How can we pray for your family as you continue on this road?

Päivi Räsänen: Thank you. I'm so, so grateful for prayers because I have experienced how concretely God answers these prayers. So thank you so much. I pray that I would get victory from the European Court of Human Rights, and I'm happy if you pray for that because I think that it would be important for European Christians, for Christians in Finland, as well as for me personally. But then, what is still more important, I pray and I ask also prayers that this process in European Court of Human Rights and its publicity would open up chances to testify about Jesus to so many audiences as possible. Because it is the most important just in this time and to encourage people to follow Jesus, to follow the teachings of the Bible, and to rely on them.

My family, I'm so happy and thankful that my children, my five children, grandchildren, and my dear husband, they have supported all the way. In fact, there are three more grandchildren on their way. Congratulations. Thank you. In a big family, there are at any time there are some problems also, so I'm so happy if you also pray for my big family because they are on my heart all the time.

Todd Nettleton: What has this done to your political career? Are you seen as an outsider? Are you seen as a hero?

Päivi Räsänen: Perhaps there are both views because this gender marriage issues, they are dividing also the Finnish society and also politicians are—some of them disagree with me very strongly. But yes, I'm happy that we had last elections three years ago, and I got even a little bit more votes even after I'd been accused. I'm going to run again next year. We have parliamentary elections. Now the situation is quite difficult. It would need a little miracle to get the seat again. It is also a prayer request.

Todd Nettleton: We serve a miracle-working God, so we know that he can do that. Päivi, thank you so much for your stand for truth. We American Christians are watching what's happening here. We're aware, and we're praying for you. Thanks for being our guest this week on The Voice of the Martyrs Radio.

Päivi Räsänen: Thank you so much.

Todd Nettleton: You've been listening to The Voice of the Martyrs Radio, coming to you this week from Finland. As always, if you're just joining us, you'll want to tune in at vomradio.net or find The Voice of the Martyrs Radio wherever you listen to podcasts. Make sure you're back with us next week. Every week, we talk about what God is doing around the world, even in Western countries where Christians are being asked to pay a price. Join us again next week right here on The Voice of the Martyrs Radio Network.