Save America Ministries

Chuck Crismier: We're hearing about our military every single day, whether it's in Iran or wherever it happens to be across the world. Just yesterday, our president attended the receiving of four bodies of our military who had been serving across the sea, unwittingly not knowing that the next day their lives would be snuffed out.

But how about the lives of those whose lives are not snuffed out? That is, through bombs, through shrapnel, through any of those other kinds of things coming upon them, or drones? But how about those whose lives are being snuffed out at home? How about those who are going through terrifying problems with regard to their families? We want to take a look at that here today on Viewpoint, and I'm glad that you've joined us. This conversation is always with ever-increasing conviction talk that transforms.

Now, how do you bulletproof a family? Are our families here outside the military bulletproofed? Well, not so much, friends. If you go to our website, saveus.org, and you look under fact sheets, you will find many different fact sheets that are showing how non-bulletproof our families really are. Maybe part of the reason is we're not putting on the whole armor of God every day. Maybe it's the problem that we're not lifting up the shield of faith and the sword of the spirit and walking in the truth of God's word, but maybe we're walking under the dominion of the culture. Maybe we've come under a different authority, even as professing Christians.

Well, today on Viewpoint, we're going to have a fascinating conversation with a new friend, Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman from St. Louis. He says he's protected by the great arch that's going over St. Louis. I thought it was protected by the arches from heaven, but he says he's in St. Louis, so maybe the arches there in St. Louis are helping to protect. We'll find out more from him in just a moment. But before we go on, 45% of American civilian respondents say they appreciate military family sacrifices, but only 19% of military families agree with that assessment. In other words, they don't feel appreciated. Why? Well, what about everyone who shows up on TV or in any other situation and you find out they were in the military and somebody says, "Thank you for your service"?

What does that mean, anyway? Is that just some sort of a ritual, "Thank you for your service"? What does it mean in practicality? What does it mean in true honor and respect and true value? Maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe, just maybe, that's part of the problem with regard to what's going on in military families. And yes, indeed, there are still military families, even though family is under attack here in our country as a whole. So we're going to talk about those things on the program, and I'm glad that you joined us.

It’s perhaps you have a friend, you have a relative, maybe a spouse, maybe a son, a daughter who is in the military or has been in, and you can understand much more deeply the visceral situations that take place there in those families. How about the kids? How do they feel when their daddy or their mom is gone? How many of these families have mothers who are in the military, dads at home and doing their civilian jobs, but mothers in the military? That's a fascinating problem.

So today on the program, Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman is joining us to talk about how to bulletproof the family, how to bulletproof military families, but also our families who are not in the military. So Dave, it's good to have you on the program.

Dave Grossman: It's my pleasure, Chuck. This is actually a sequel. Our first book was "Bulletproof Marriage," a Christian Book Award finalist. It’s useful to go to Amazon, it's got like 800 five-star reviews on it. And when we wrote the book, we thought 90 days, 15 minutes a day, sheepdog and spouse. Now, we talk about the book being about sheepdogs.

Chuck Crismier: Sheepdogs? I thought it was about humans.

Dave Grossman: Well, it's about those who are serving, those who are protecting the flock. I've got the US government trademark for the term sheepdog. It took off from one of my books. And the sheepdog—you're a sheepdog. You're dedicated to protecting the flock, getting the word out. You're that alarm dog who's at the front door. The burglars fear that alarm dog more than they do that attack dog.

Chuck Crismier: Well, you know, my wife believes that. We were having a conversation as we do every single morning over the word and prayer and so on, and she is acknowledging that she didn't use the term sheepdog, but she considers me to be her covering, to be the one who will protect her against enemies foreign and domestic, including spiritual enemies. And isn't that the way God ordained it to be?

Dave Grossman: Yes. So anybody who is the sheepdog, who's accepted responsibility, and spouse. So we talk about sheepdog and spouse, and we acknowledge there can be two sheepdogs together. At one level, that's military and first responders, but at another level, it's all of us who are under the Great Shepherd. And we talk about being a bulletproof family. And we said 90 days, 15 minutes a day, would anybody do this? Boom. It was just astounding. People said, we went through all 90 days, we did it again.

I'm a retired since '98 Lieutenant Colonel, prior service buck sergeant, but a first sergeant is still kind of a scary guy. I'm training a military unit about two years ago, and one of the first sergeants comes up and he throws a copy of "Bulletproof Marriage" in front of me and he says, "Sir, I want you personally responsible for all the arguments my wife and I had over this book." And then he had me, he old first sergeant was yanking my chain. He said, "Now I go to Amazon, I buy them five at a time, I give a copy to all my married troops." So the sequel now is "Bulletproof Family," and it's about establishing the covenant under the Great Shepherd.

And here's the thing. You and I understand that nothing in this world is truly bulletproof. Ultimately, everybody will die physically. Ultimately, every nation falls over my dead body. Ultimately, the sun will go out, but eternity continues. So the only way to be truly bulletproof, to be truly eternal, immortal, is through God and through salvation, eternity in heaven. And wrap your mind around this, this is the most important thing in the universe. What happens in eternity is literally infinitely more important than what happens on this world.

Chuck Crismier: Well, things are happening on our world, and that's the problem. That's our reality as we understand it, and we have to gain an understanding of a greater reality. And that's part of what you're talking about in your new book, "The Bulletproof Family," and we're going to make that available to our listeners here in just a moment. But before we go further, as a former trial lawyer of 20 years in California, I'm pleading the cause of a lifetime now to a jury of my peers, professing Christians, the church in America, and so on. And in order to have you speak as an expert witness, then I've got to qualify you as an expert. So you carry a title, Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman. From what area of service do you come, my friend?

Dave Grossman: Well, I enlisted as a paratrooper in the US army in 1974 and then went to officer candidate school and became an officer. As a West Point psychology professor, I wrote many successful books, testified for the Senate and the House.

Chuck Crismier: All right. Well, you've satisfied our need to know who you are, and now we get to hear what you have to say based upon who you are and the experiences that you have. Friends, the book "Bulletproof Family," you're going to want to get a copy in just a moment.

Chuck Crismier: Welcome back to Viewpoint, friends. We're confronting the deepest issues of America's heart and home from God's eternal perspective. And today, as we talk about our military families, we talk about our families because in a sense, we're all in a spiritual warfare. We're all in a battle together. So we need to understand that. But we're also focusing with specificity on our military brothers and sisters out there who are standing in the gap for you and for me.

Now, the interesting thing is, Dave, and I think I mentioned to you just before the program, I personally have never been in the military. I know of only two relatives who were, and one was a Lieutenant Colonel in the air force. He was a very tall, very commanding kind of a guy, good-natured, but very commanding in personality, and he could talk you around and never stop for an hour. Now, I don't know if that's what you have to—that ability you have to have to be a Lieutenant Colonel, but you seem to have that gift yourself.

Dave Grossman: Well, may it be so, Lord, and it is a gift. And you talk about our military families. You talked earlier about saying thank you for your service. Now here's the thing. I've got a grandson in now, I've got a son who retired after nine combat tours. Nobody's being drafted into the armed forces today. They're there because they want to be. They believe in what they're doing and they like what they're doing.

Frankly, being deployed is sometimes some of the most rewarding and fulfilling times of our lives. The ones who sacrifice are the families. And the ones who we need to thank—and when you get a chance, you thank them for their service, that's fine. It kind of gets old. A better line is "welcome home." If you want to say something a little fresh, a little new.

Chuck Crismier: Well, that's what was missing after Vietnam, isn't it? That was what was missing. They weren't welcomed.

Dave Grossman: You know, I wrote a book called "On Killing." Million copies sold, translated in nine languages. And I proved, definitively proved, that the Vietnam veterans were spit on, they were attacked, they were condemned. It's one of the greatest abominations in our history. And so we're doing a better job, but we've really whiplashed in the opposite direction to say they're all broken. They all have PTSD and they're all suicidal.

Just to give you an idea—you've heard that 22 veterans a day take their life. But a veteran is anybody who ever served. And during the late '40s, '50s, '60s, early '70s, everybody was drafted, and virtually every 18-year-old kid, the majority of 18-year-old kids in those times served. So these guys are 70-, 80-, 90-year-old men who served for two years in the cold war who take their lives. As suicide among the elderly is a total different story.

But of those 22 veterans a day, only two are from the global war on terror and only one of them deployed. Now, one is one too many, but this abomination that they're all suicidal, PTSD, full 100% disabled PTSD, runs about 5%. And so the idea that of those who are deployed—so the idea they all have PTSD and they're all suicidal is in a way kind of the same attack on the Vietnam veterans, just going in a different direction. Instead of them all being evil baby killers, now they're all suicidal, and it's all part of the anti-war rhetoric.

And the truth is the majority of the returning veterans are stronger for their service, that they're better human beings. But it's a hard road, it's a hard life, and it's hardest for the family. And that brings us back to the need for God and the need for a covenant in their family. Our book "Bulletproof Marriage" talks about bringing your family together, establishing a covenant, starting your day in prayer and for guiding your life through God's word, and that's the only true way to be bulletproof.

Chuck Crismier: Well, that's true, and you're talking here about a bulletproof family. That goes beyond the marriage. It starts with the marriage. The marriage is the very heart set. In fact, marriage is the smallest microcosm of the church: a husband, a father, a husband, a wife, and the Holy Spirit. You've got three there bound together and a threefold cord is not supposed to be easily broken. So you've got that, but then after that you've got the kiddos.

And when you have—generally speaking, it would be a man, a husband, a father who has been deployed, he's out there, who knows where, around the world, and you've lost a bit of contact with him. The children are wondering, you know, where's my daddy? And especially if they're really young. And then the wife is trying to fill in the gap being father and mother at the same time. That's a tough calling, isn't it?

Dave Grossman: It really is. And again, all things are possible through Christ who lives within me. But it's a hard road and it's almost impossible without the Lord. And so we keep kind of bringing the family back around, chapter after chapter, section after section, of guiding that and understanding that. You talk about something terribly important. We are in the middle of spiritual warfare.

I wrote the book "On Combat" and "On Killing," both of which are on Marine Corps Commandant's required reading list. I also wrote the book "On Spiritual Combat" and then the sequel "On Spiritual Warfare." And the thing to understand: this is not our home, Chuck. We are soldiers deployed to a war zone. When we die, we get to go home.

Chuck Crismier: Well, Dave, what you didn't know is that my 12th book just came off the press. It's right in front of me here, "The Power to Overcome." "The Power to Overcome." And we're in this war, and the war is not out there against nebulous figures out there in the wild blue yonder. The war is deeply in our minds, deeply in our hearts, deeply in our families, and that's where the overcoming has to take place, isn't it?

Dave Grossman: Amen, may it be so. And and again, I had a group of young Christians, we do a Christian camp, some Tier One Spec Ops retired guys, and they've got me on board. And I told all these magnificent young Christian boys, I said, "Listen to me, your parents are going to die, and seldom a good death. You're going to die. Don't think the Christian life means everything is going to be all wonderful and peachy keen. But understand this, that our reward is not on this earth. Good things will happen, we'll be blessed, God will be there for us, but in the end, I can tell you the end of the book, you're going to die."

But if we have eternity to understand that you see this tragic loss of life. One question that the cops ask and every first responder asks, and I tell all my classes, it's an existential question: how could a loving God allow this terrible thing to happen? But you understand that that child that died goes straight to heaven. Not everybody goes to heaven, you understand that? But those innocent ones who die, boom, go straight to heaven, and eternity in heaven is infinitely more important than the suffering on this earth. But as we reach the age of accountability, then we have to embrace salvation through Christ. And that's infinitely more important than anything else that'll happen in this world. Just keep your eyes on the big picture and the things in this world come into focus. Keep your eyes on Christ.

Chuck Crismier: Well, that's a little bit hard to do when you've got drones coming in from all over the place and you don't know where they're coming from and the shrapnel is falling and who knows what else is coming along. And then at home, wife and kids have no clue, and they hear, they see on the television the storms taking place and the attacks and the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air and all of that, and they say, "Oh man, is my husband safe? Are my children going to have a father?" And that's a very hard thing because we live in the here and now.

Dave Grossman: Yes. And then embrace the reality that they may not be safe. They may be dead. And give them to the Lord now and trust them to the Lord.

Chuck Crismier: All right. And that is a sense—the sacrifice that every spouse staying stateside has to come to grips with. And that's a very, very difficult thing. On the other hand, on the other hand, I have one of my wife's relatives, a very dear friend of mine, who's been involved in my life now for many, many years. He was involved in ministry. And his wife said, "I don't want any part of this. I don't want to have to sacrifice like this. I don't want any part of this." So she divorced him.

Well, to a certain extent, we have the same kind of problems stateside in other venues that we find in the military itself. So none of us is protected absolutely from the variegations of life out there, and we want as best we can to have bulletproof families. So friends, here's the book I want to make available to you right here on the program: "Bulletproof Family." It's a 90-day devotional to help us to be strong in the Lord and particularly those in the military would be even more blessed by this book.

$13 will put it in your hands. It's on our website, saveus.org. You can give us a call at 1-800-SAVE-USA, that's 1-800-SAVE-USA, or write to us at Save America Ministries, PO Box 70879, Richmond, Virginia, 23255, writing a check at $6 for postage and handling. Bulletproof your family.

Now, I want to provide some statistics here to help us to get our minds around what really happens, where the military really is here. Here's a guy who says most of the guys in my unit are either twice divorced or on their third marriage. There are a couple of two-timers and one newbie with a decent relationship. Now, that's not a very pretty picture when we're talking about bulletproof families or bulletproof marriages.

On the other hand, today around 1 million military spouses and more than 11 million spouses of veterans—that's a lot of people. That's a lot of people. But here's a statistic that really—I don't quite understand. Military men are slightly more likely to be married than civilian men, and junior enlistees are nearly twice as likely to be married as civilian age 18ers. That is a very fascinating statistic. How do we explain that?

Dave Grossman: Well, you know, it represents the fact that our military are more conservative. You understand that marriage has almost gone out of style with liberals and that's an attack on marriage and they really view it from a negative standpoint.

Chuck Crismier: Right. So cohabitation now has become the name of the game among our youth, our young people. But here it says that even the newbies are much more likely to be married, not cohabiters but married, than civilian men.

Dave Grossman: And also, you understand that they're getting medical too. They're getting, you know, if you're married and you say, where, how am I going to deal with, you know, with my medical insurance, the military is a good place to be. And it provides stability, it provides—you know, obviously you're deployed, you're away, but it provides a lot of very positive things. It was a good thing for me and my family, and it was a good thing now for my son who's retired after nine combat tours.

Chuck Crismier: Wow. Nine combat tours. That's a pretty good expression of endurance.

Dave Grossman: And a lot of prayers, I tell you what. And you know, but we gave him to the Lord and we knew that he may not come home and we knew that we would meet him again in heaven and that we would have eternity in heaven. And so that's how you truly become bulletproof. To understand your child can die, but you know you're going to meet them again in heaven, and the things on this earth grow strangely dim when you focus on Jesus and on the eternal, the immortal.

The things in this earth are terribly important. Our nation, Chuck, is a gift that was given to us by God and has been empowered to us. Now here's something very important I want you and all your listeners to understand. Maybe one of the most important concepts I could communicate about here on earth and our responsibilities: we are the rulers in this nation through our votes. And as such, we are like the kings of the Old Testament. And the kings who did not use their authority to move their kingdom to righteousness were under a terrible curse. And I tell you, as the rulers of this nation, if you do not vote and do not vote for righteousness, you are like the evil kings of the Old Testament.

Chuck Crismier: That is a terrifying thought. And I think in this day and age, particularly for those under 40 or under 45, that concept doesn't resonate very well. It's almost as if we have lost sight of the country, of the purpose and meaning of the country, albeit imperfect because no person is perfect, including you and me and any of our families are not perfect. But we're living in a nation that is the most perfect ever in history, notwithstanding all of that. So what are we going to do? Is it valuable to protect that or just to tear it apart because I want what I want when I want it and no sacrifices required? We'll be right back after this, friends. Stay tuned.

Chuck Crismier: Again, I welcome you back to Viewpoint, friends. We say regularly on the program, as you know, viewpoint determines destiny. There are no neutral viewpoints. None of our viewpoints are neutral. They all have consequences. Every one of our viewpoints has consequences.

So when we think about our military, we think about those who are serving and the sacrifices that are being made by their families. It behooves us, I think, to take seriously a kind of prayerful responsibility that we might have to uphold them. I mean, the book of Isaiah tells us, "I am your God, I will strengthen you and help you. I will uphold you with my—the right—my righteous right hand." On the other hand, you and I are called to be his hand extended. And that's one of the things that my wife years ago said, "We're called to be Jesus with skin on." And don't you like that, Dave?

Dave Grossman: I love it. I love it.

Chuck Crismier: Jesus with skin on. Which means that wherever we have a situation where we know someone who is in the military, someone particularly a Christian brother or sister—that's where our primary responsibility would be—first to the body of Christ and then others. So if we know somebody like that, if we have somebody in our neighborhood, somebody in our congregation, somebody in our sphere of influence, somewhere, maybe a spouse that's in the job where you are, it may be a unique place that you have to serve and try to be Jesus with skin on, so to speak, to that individual. I think that's a powerful thing that we can do to encourage one another amid very difficult circumstances, Dave.

Dave Grossman: Amen, amen. And you know, our military out there, our first responders out there, they would die for you every day. Jesus said, "Greater love has no man than this, that they lay down the life for their friends." So what manner of love is this that they walk out the door and lay their life down for strangers? And the point of it is that what can we give back to them?

And I tell you that they're ready to die for our nation, to die for our communities. The least you can do is vote. A large portion of Christians—some researchers say majority or a third—but a huge portion of Christians do not vote. That is an irresponsible—I don't know how to put it in words how irresponsible that is.

But I tell you this: if you do not vote, then do not—do not—do not send a single email, do not do a single comment, do not get online, do not do anything because you have not got the right or the authority to say anything or do anything if you are not voting. You forfeited that. Yes, all of your talk online, all of your politics, all of your commentary are nothing, nothing, nothing if you don't vote because the voting is the only way you truly can influence events.

Chuck Crismier: The expression of your viewpoint from God's viewpoint. Now, if we don't have God's viewpoint and we have earthly viewpoints and cultural viewpoints and racial viewpoints and all of that—

Dave Grossman: And they're the ones voting. Yes.

Chuck Crismier: Yeah. So this is a very, very important thing. So if we're going to bulletproof our families though, we've got to do it from God's perspective. And that's what's missing. I grew up in the church, Dave, and as I said, my father was a pastor for 50 years. And there were five kids in our family. And every one of those kids had the same opportunity. Every one of those kids had the same choices to be made. Every one of those kids heard the same message. But they didn't all follow it. They didn't all make those choices, and two of them just abandoned the faith. Two of the five just abandoned the faith. One ultimately came back under threat of breast cancer and was just torn up that her husband refused to humble himself before God.

So when you look at families, families are under stress today. Even professing Christian families are under stress. And one of the things that bothered me about at least one member of our family is he was in the army. He was drafted into the army and they put him up there in the—what's it called there in San Francisco, to be indoctrinated into speaking Vietnamese. And he was sent over to Vietnam and rode in the helicopters to translate America's messages and the messages of the Viet Cong and so on. But he was so torn up internally by what he experienced, and he divorced his whole family. He divorced even his birth family, just completely torn up. How can we understand that kind of response?

Dave Grossman: Well, you know, it comes back to spiritual warfare. It does. It comes back to the fact that the mind is, you know, the battle's being fought and won in the individual spirit, in the individual mind. The devil attacks from every direction. But you know, I wonder, you know, I'm betting that probably when they were young, all of your siblings came to the Lord. They were probably baptized, they probably came to the Lord. And then during our walks and during our lives, we move away. But I think we have great hope that we will see them again on the other side.

Chuck Crismier: Well, not when they have openly rejected the Lord. Not when they have openly rejected the Lord. I would disagree with that.

Dave Grossman: Yeah. And then we'd have to say, well, they never were.

Chuck Crismier: Well, that's what some people would say. I think except in one instance, I think they were, but they walked away. They rejected the Lord because they had their own ideas, their own viewpoint.

Dave Grossman: It’s interesting the concept of eternal salvation, you know, that "neither life nor death, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come shall separate us from the love of God—"

Chuck Crismier: Except that you can. The Bible doesn't say you can't separate.

Dave Grossman: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point, that's a good point.

Chuck Crismier: That is a very good point. In fact, it's the most important point.

Dave Grossman: When we talk about that concept, I just tell you that the one thing you can control is to raise your kids in the church and have them baptized at a young age, and then to pray that when they go out into the world that you raise them up in righteousness, they'll go out in the world in righteousness and—

Chuck Crismier: And all you can do is trust the Lord because once they've grown up, they're outside of your control. You may try to encourage, you might pray and so on, but they're outside your control.

Dave Grossman: And what's even harder, Chuck, is grandkids. You know, in some ways you love the grandkids more and you have even less control.

Chuck Crismier: Absolutely. We've got 10 of them, my friend.

Dave Grossman: God bless you.

Chuck Crismier: Yeah. And we're experiencing the pain of spiritual warfare in every possible respect. You know, I was thinking about this with regard to my birth family. And my father was a pastor for 50 years, but during 14 of those years, he felt very strongly led to an evangelistic kind of work where he would travel around the country and teach and preach in various churches around the country in a revival effort.

Well, guess what? Those 14 years were after I turned 18. I was out of the house. I was going to a college, I was working, but my siblings all experienced a—in many respects, a fatherless environment while my father was out supposedly doing the work of the Lord. And their experience seems to have been very different. Now, my mother was a very strong person, a very strong godly woman, but I'll tell you, there's no substitute for a dad in the home.

Dave Grossman: Amen, amen. And then, of course, you know, you got military deployments. You know, my dad was a cop and there were many times, you know, he worked on Christmas and we had Christmas the next day, you know? We just knew that was a part of what happened. There were many, many holidays that he worked and many holidays that dad wasn't home. And of course, I've been deployed and my kids many times I wasn't home. But the Lord is the father to the fatherless, you know, and it keeps coming back around to the Lord and to raising them up and influence in what you can do. And that's really kind of the point of spiritual warfare.

Chuck Crismier: It is. I'm looking right now, I'm surrounded in my broadcast studio with certain plaques that keep my mind and my heart adjusted. Praise God. Here's one of those, right in front of my eyes: "Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid or discouraged, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go," right from the book of Joshua. Then across the broadcast studio is this famous quote: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things that I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." I tell you, brother, I need these words of encouragement because what we're doing right here on the air, even this very day, is spiritual warfare, even as we're talking with Christian brothers and sisters all across the country and around the world. It's spiritual warfare because they're involved and there are casualties that are taking place in our so-called Christian families everywhere.

Dave Grossman: And so, you know, when we talk about God and family and country, kind of in that order, we have this responsibility first and foremost to God, and then we have this responsibility to bring our family to God and then bring our nation to God. And that brings us back around to prayer, which is the single most powerful weapon we have. You know, when we go through the full armor of God, the last thing is the sword of the spirit, but then the next thing is the radio, because it says to pray ceaselessly in the spirit. And the most important piece of equipment, the most effective weapon that any cop carries, that any soldier carries, is the radio, because the radio calls the SWAT team, the radio calls artillery, the radio calls air strikes.

Chuck Crismier: So you're relating the radio to prayer.

Dave Grossman: Absolutely. With the full armor of God, and when you take Ephesians chapter 6 and the full armor of God, you know, the last thing is the sword of the spirit, but then the next is "pray ceaselessly in the spirit." And so we teach that that's the radio, the most effective tool, weapon anybody can carry. So the point of all that is that we must never cease in our prayer warrior relationship to our family and to our nation. And then we do the things we can do, which is to vote and which is to bring those kids to church every Sunday and to—

Chuck Crismier: And to disciple them in the word, will, and the ways of the Lord, which is missing terribly in our churches today. We'll be right back, friends, with Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, his book "Bulletproof Family." You want to get a copy of this encouraging book. $13 will put it in your hands. It's on our website, saveus.org, call us 1-800-SAVE-USA.

Chuck Crismier: Bulletproofing your family, that's what we're talking about here today on Viewpoint as we talk about the realities in military life with Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman. He's been there, done that, has a son went through nine combat tours. It's hard to fathom that.

And when I think about that, there's so much talk about PTSD, the effect. I'm remembering a gentleman—he's now in his 80s—and he was—I don't remember his exact rank, but he was in the air force. And during his sojourn there, he flew many, many, many combat flights. When he came back, he became extremely wealthy because of some investment decisions that he made. But the unfortunate thing is that he can't live in the same home with his spouse. He's still married, but the effect of what he experienced even to this day is so traumatic that he wakes in the middle of the night—he's in warfare. And it was a violence that his spouse was experiencing. And so they're still married, but they can't live together because of that.

Dave Grossman: You know, Chuck, I think something to understand here is that that is the great exception. About 5% contract 100% PTSD. Nietzsche stole it from the Bible: "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger." Romans chapter 5 says the same thing 2,000 years earlier: "we glory in tribulation, for tribulation worketh patience, patience experience, experience hope, and hope maketh not ashamed." 2,000 years before Nietzsche.

So the idea that everybody's going to be broken by combat—and there are those who are—but the vast majority are actually made stronger. There's a new "greatest generation" in the smear of our veterans that they all have PTSD. And so that's the tragic case that you outline there. And it needs our support. And the truth is that we're really, really good at treating PTSD. There's something called Post-Traumatic Growth. And that's what Romans chapter 5 is talking about, that's what Nietzsche meant and stealing it from the Bible: Post-Traumatic Growth.

When we talk about the World War II veterans, we talk about the "greatest generation." And they really were, they were empowered by the experience, and the majority of veterans are empowered by the experience.

Chuck Crismier: But not only that, but they had a reason to go into the military. They didn't go in to get military education. They went in to protect the country and their families. They had a reason to go in. Today, the reasons often are not quite the same.

Dave Grossman: And yet again, you know, we talk about that. These are a very, you know, there are liberals in the military, but they're rare. You know, it—"there are no atheists in the foxhole," it's been said. There are a few, actually, and it was actually Aristotle that first said something along the lines that very few men in the heat of battle that don't turn to God.

And the majority of our military represent conservative individuals who want to support our nation. The majority of our first responders represent conservative individuals. They're not doing this job for their money, they're not doing it to be famous. They truly are doing it to serve. So the majority of them are stronger from the experience, those Post-Traumatic Growth. Those who do have a problem, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, we're really, really good at treating it. And I want everybody to know, if you know someone with PTSD, tell them to get help and realize we can get it under control and it doesn't have to be this way. We're really, really good at treating it.

But the point of all of this is there are burdens upon those who serve. The lessons of the military can be applied to all of our families. That's why this book "Bulletproof Family" applies across the board. And what we want is Post-Traumatic Growth, Romans chapter 5: "we glory in tribulation." And that is only truly possible through the Lord. And that's where true salvation, a true strength lies, and that's where the only true bulletproof family is, through the Lord and eternity in heaven. That's what makes us bulletproof.

Chuck Crismier: All right. So when somebody gets a copy of your book "Bulletproof Family," what are they going to find?

Dave Grossman: Well, they're going to find a 90-day devotional. They're going to find 15 minutes a day. They're going to find a—let me just kind of pull a chapter out at random here, see where the Lord leads us. Here we are in Day 48, and that's defeating the 360-degree attack. It begins with John 10:10: "The thief does not come except to steal and to kill and to destroy. I have come that they may have life and they may have it more abundantly." John 10:10.

And it begins with an outline of a Staff Sergeant John Robert in Hickory Hill in North Vietnam from Hickory Hill in North Vietnam. And it gives a great case study of victory through the Lord. And then it's got a quick tip, and then it's got something for the sheepdog, and then it's got something for the family and discussions and then a prayer: "Heavenly Father, today we thank you for victory over the evil one. We thank you for victory in Jesus' name over spiritual onslaught. If we ever feel overwhelmed, remind us of the spirit of courage you've given us. Remind us of Deuteronomy 20. Dear Lord, grant us victory in these battles. In Jesus' mighty name, amen."

And so you begin with scripture, you end with scripture, you end with a prayer. You've got discussion questions. And that's where the old first sergeant said, "Sir, I hold you personally responsible for the arguments my wife and I had over this book. Now I go to Amazon, I buy them five at a time and give a copy to all my married troops." But these discussions, this is where the meat of it is, when we sit down and discuss things and we talk about these things. So just in one day—this is just one day, 15, 20 minutes—we've got a—we begin with the word of God. And the word of God is alive and powerful.

Chuck Crismier: Exactly.

Dave Grossman: We don't realize that the word of God is alive, the Holy Spirit indwells within it. When you say these words, they have power.

Chuck Crismier: You know what I think, Dave? The unfortunate thing is we live in a world that is not a friend of grace. We live in a culture that is seeking to capture every professing Christian, their minds, their hearts, and their families. And just very briefly here, I spent 20 years as a trial lawyer in California. 40% of my practice was in the area of family law in the largest family law court in the nation, the Los Angeles Superior Court system. 80% of my clientele came from the broader body of Christ. In other words, we're professing Christians.

Now, how can you explain that 40% of my practice came from professing Christians in the area of family law? How can you explain that? Well, it's exactly spiritual warfare. And even at that time, which was in from 1975 to 1994, those years, the situation was so grave and becoming graver by the year, and this is what I had to deal with. And they were looking specifically for a Christian lawyer. They knew from reputation and so on what they were going to expect. But what they didn't realize was they were going to receive some serious counsel and questions with regard to their motivations and what was causing them.

And here's what troubles me: during all of those years and every effort that was made to try to bring professing Christian couples to humble themselves under the word, will, and ways of God and to see things from his perspective, they refused to do it and inevitably chose divorce, inevitably chose divorce. So what was my job? My job then became to do the very best I could to represent my client in honesty and in truth, just as God gave Moses that responsibility in the Old Testament. But was that God's—?

Dave Grossman: Stop just a minute. Stop just a minute and savor this. I just—this my mind rocks with a divorce lawyer, at least in part, who's trying to godly guide people away from divorce. Do you understand what that is? My mind rocks with a divorce lawyer who's trying to talk people out of divorce. Praise God!

Chuck Crismier: I'm thinking, you know, here's what I did: I met with couples, my wife and I met with couples in the evening to try to encourage them out from under the very work that I was doing.

Dave Grossman: Praise God. Wow.

Chuck Crismier: And I remember—I remember a situation that was so desperately troubling. And a couple—I took them in for a preliminary hearing on their divorce case. I took them from that into the private conference room next door to the courtroom and did everything I could to persuade them to forsake the pattern that they were on and to help them to see, "You don't have to do this. There is a hope. Put your trust in the Lord and get on board with him." And they couldn't bring themselves to do it.

So you can pray, you can pray and pray and pray, but if you're not willing to obey, your prayers fall empty.

Dave Grossman: You know, it's a great example of a failure, but let me give you an example of a success because I think we should wrap up the hour on a godly, virtuous success story. It's just a little story, but I was at a law enforcement conference and they had me in their booth and people know me, I'm kind of a celebrity, and I'm selling my books there. And a law enforcement couple comes up and they said, "We were 11 days away from divorce when somebody gave me your book 'Bulletproof Marriage' and said 'just start going through it, just give it 15 minutes a day.'"

She said, "We were 11 days away from divorce and we started going through your book and in just the first couple of days we said let's put this off for a while." And she said, "We actually had a court date 11 days away and we started your book, somebody gave us a copy of your book 'Bulletproof Marriage' and it allowed us to turn our—" and today here we are, you know, a year later, our marriage is stronger than ever. So I tell you that that's a great example of kind of the risk and the power of evil, but there's that example of the power of good.

Chuck Crismier: That's wonderful. That's why we brought you on today, brother, because you've written the book "Bulletproof Family." You also have your book "Bulletproof Marriage." "Bulletproof Family" is on my desk here, in my hand. $13 will put it in your hands. It's on our website, saveus.org, 1-800-SAVE-USA, or PO Box 70879, Richmond, Virginia, 23255.

Also, Dave, your book on "Bulletproof Marriage," that's out there in shoppers land on Amazon or wherever else?

Dave Grossman: Or my website is grossmanontruth.com, www.grossmanontruth.com.

Chuck Crismier: All right, and Grossman is a double S, G-R-O-S-S-M-A-N on truth dot com. Hey, thanks so much for joining me here on the program. Hope you hold things together there in St. Louis. I doubt that the great archway is keeping things together, but it gives the illusion of that, doesn't it?

Dave Grossman: May it be so. Actually, it's the Lord that keeps us together and in God we trust, although you know that's not always the case between you and I and—as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. God bless you, God bless America, Chuck.

Chuck Crismier: Hey, thanks so much, Dave. And keep pressing on the upward way. God is using your experiences. I don't have that military experience. Although, Dave, just for whatever it's worth, even though I wasn't drafted to Vietnam like my fellow teacher was—I was a teacher at that time—they put me in teaching math in the lowest school district in California.

Dave Grossman: That sounds like a war zone to me.

Chuck Crismier: That was a war zone, I tell you. It was the district with the greatest concentration of ex-cons in California. That's where I taught school for nine years. So I was on the front line.

Dave Grossman: A teacher in the war zone of California, a Christian lawyer in California for 20 years, that's the front line too. Praise God. Thank you, Chuck.

Chuck Crismier: Thank you, Dave. God bless. Friends, become a partner with us, send your gifts by faith to Save America Ministries. Do it today, don't wait for the other guy to do it. This is a tremendous opportunity that we have to continue to confront the deepest issues of our hearts and home and to become ever closer to the Lord and to trust him with all of our hearts. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, don't lean to your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will direct your path. God bless and be a blessing.