Save America Ministries

Guest (Male): This is Viewpoint with attorney and author Chuck Crismier. Viewpoint is a one-hour talk show confronting the issues of America's heart and home. And now, with today's edition of Viewpoint, here is Chuck Crismier.

Chuck Crismier: Blessed is the man that fears the Lord, that delights greatly in his commandments. His seed shall be mighty upon the earth, and the generation of the upright shall be blessed. Wealth and riches shall be in his house, and his righteousness endures forever. Unto the upright there arises light in the darkness. This man is gracious and full of compassion and righteous.

A good man shows favor and lends. He will guide his affairs with discretion. Surely he shall not be moved forever. The righteous man shall be in everlasting remembrance. He shall not be afraid of evil tidings. His heart is fixed, trusting in the Lord. His heart is established; he shall not be afraid.

Is that you out there, my friend? Are you a good man? That's the question before us here today on Viewpoint. God is looking for a few good men. We used to hear that Uncle Sam was looking for a few good men, and these days, with the war against fatherhood, against masculinity, against men, against patriarchy, I have to tell you, it's hard to find a good man.

My grandchildren say it's very hard to find a good woman, but the women out there following Christ are saying it's hard to find a good man as well. These days, it's very hard to find that kind of good man or good woman because, quite frankly, we've lost the conviction that made us good men and good women.

So I welcome you to Viewpoint. I'm Chuck Crismier. It's a conversation with ever-increasing conviction, talk that transforms. In order to get wisdom on this matter, I went to the source of all wisdom: Google. I asked the question, "What is a good man?" You might be surprised by the answer that came from AI.

"He is trustworthy, accountable. Rather than being perfect, he works to overcome his own flaws while acting as a supportive, loving partner. Key traits include loyalty, empathy, and initiative. Integrity and honesty. He says what he means and he acts with strong morals. He's consistent, shows kindness and dependability to everyone, even when nobody is watching."

"He treats people with dignity and listens to understand, and handles anger without being frightening. He admits mistakes, takes responsibility for his actions, and works constantly on self-improvement. He acts as a cheerleader for others. He takes initiative, faces problems directly, and handles financial or household responsibilities. He is courageous and responsible, and he always keeps his word."

Well, that's an interesting observation from AI, and not that far off the truth. But what about from God's viewpoint? You see, God's viewpoint is the only viewpoint that really matters. We can have the cultural viewpoint, we can have even the best cultural viewpoints, but the only viewpoint that really matters is God's, isn't it?

So today on Viewpoint, we're joined by a pastor from North Carolina, Donnie Griggs. He's written a book called *Becoming Good Men*. The presumption of the title is we're not necessarily good men yet, but maybe we need to become what God would have us be. Donnie, it's good to have you on the program, brother.

Donnie Griggs: It's so great to be with you guys.

Chuck Crismier: This matter of men is a very difficult topic these days. Manhood is supremely repressed, suppressed, depressed, oppressed. It just seems like men have met very difficult times in the last years since the 1970s with the feminist revolution. In fact, one actress declared on national television, "Down with patriarchy! Down with manhood! Down with patriarchy!" What a symbol for our country.

The problem with that, as I see it, Donnie, as one who has been involved in the church from coast to coast for many years now in many denominations, it seems to me that that same spirit has in some ways prevailed and made its way like a virus into the church itself. What do you say, Pastor?

Donnie Griggs: I think it's a difficult time to be a man for sure. I think there's this hostility that we face culturally around all masculinity being deemed toxic, and many men feeling really unwanted, feeling unneeded. Then you add that to just a real lack of vision, a lack of compelling vision for the kinds of men we want to be. I mean, that's a tough recipe right there, not to mention so many of the men that I know, including myself, didn't have from our own fathers the kinds of examples that would have helped us to really navigate all of this. It's just tough all around. It's tough to know what to do, and even if you do it, it feels like there's so much pushback to it.

Chuck Crismier: Exactly. In fact, I said in my book, *Hearts of the Fathers*, that fathers and men now face an epic battle and fatherhood is under massive assault. The media perpetually characterizes men, and particularly fathers, as insignificant, bumbling boys, while our churches perhaps somewhat unwittingly demasculinize ministry.

Men and fathers are now struggling for meaningful identity, leaving our kids largely estranged from an environment of genuine manhood and fatherhood. We're living in very tough times. That is serious, not just for manhood in general, but when God says in Malachi chapter four that he is so concerned about manhood and fatherhood that he sends forth the spirit of Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord to call the hearts of the fathers and men to the children, children to the fathers. Apparently, God was aware that this condition would exist just before his son's second coming.

Donnie Griggs: Absolutely. I think another piece to this is the recent data that's come out of the University of Virginia that highlights, really alarmingly, that statistically some of the worst men in America are men who go to church occasionally, read their Bibles occasionally. So we've got that whole added dilemma of a lot of guys who every now and then read their Bible, every now and then go to church, but they end up having the worst numbers in the country for domestic violence. They tend to be the worst fathers, the worst husbands. It is very problematic.

Chuck Crismier: Well, especially in the Bible Belt of America, particularly the buckle of the Bible Belt. over the past year and a half, over 14 major ministries, the leaders of major, major, major ministries have fallen because they didn't conduct themselves like godly men. What do you make of this?

Donnie Griggs: Man, I think there are just so many layers. I think we have simultaneously exalted a celebrity culture in so many of those different streams in churches, which I think is obviously problematic and just creates the environment for men to not be who they say that they are. Then you've got the backdrop of feeling the feelings we've talked about, looking for validation in the wrong places. It just creates a scenario where men are going to fall if something doesn't change.

Chuck Crismier: Well, you say that to be a good man, you've got to stop being a boy. Maybe we need to start there when we come back from this break. Friends, you're listening to Viewpoint. Viewpoint determines destiny. Get a copy of the wonderful book, *Becoming Good Men*, $14 on our website, saveus.org.

Guest (Male): Once upon a time, children could pray and read their Bibles in school. Divorces were practically unknown, as was child abuse. In our once-great America, virginity and chastity were popular virtues and homosexuality was an abomination. So what happened in just one generation? Hi, I'm Chuck Crismier and I urge you to join me daily on Viewpoint where we discuss the most challenging issues touching our hearts and homes. Could America's moral slide relate to the Fourth Commandment? Listen to Viewpoint on this radio station or anytime at saveus.org.

Chuck Crismier: When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child, but when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. So what's happened to men today? Have we given up childish ways or have we embraced them as manful ways? Maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe we haven't given up childish ways, maybe we have never stopped being boys. What say you, my special friend, Donnie Griggs, pastor in North Carolina?

Donnie Griggs: I think this is a huge problem. I think men don't have in our culture what a lot of cultures around the world still have, which is these rites of passage. So there's no real marker, there's never a moment where men are told now you're required to be a man. We don't have this line in the sand. Our rites of passage are you have sex, you smoke, you can drink, maybe you join the military, maybe you get a job.

We have these false sort of lines in the sand that say now you're a man, but those are really a long way away from men feeling commissioned into masculinity. Then you get thrust out into life and all the responsibilities that follow. Maybe you get married, you have kids, and the consequences are massive to not being the kinds of men that we were really made to be. So men just blow up scenario after scenario. We've just as a society really catered to men staying boys. As you mentioned, we've got this cultural narrative that men are just bumbling idiots, and then men just play the part. They play the part in a variety of ways, but more and more we're finding men rejecting any kind of responsibility, which is a huge line in the sand to embracing masculinity.

Chuck Crismier: I'm so glad that you wrote this book, *Becoming Good Men*. Of course, the big question is, what is a good man? You could put the emphasis on good, but maybe before you put the emphasis on good, you've got to put the emphasis on man or men. That's where we're starting here. A man can no longer be one who entertains and lives according to the standards of boyhood, right?

Donnie Griggs: That's right. It really does start with owning responsibility. Owning responsibility for yourself, for your strength, for your actions. A boy has to be told what to do, has to be made to do the right thing. A man embraces responsibility. A man begins to own his place in the world, begins to own his own story, faces his own struggles and sin, and begins to chart a course toward leaving a legacy that can really be one of faithfulness, one that gets passed down to generations.

Chuck Crismier: Well, I'm glad that you mentioned that word "legacy." I had mentioned the book that I wrote a few years ago, *Hearts of the Fathers*. The subtitle was "Leaving a Legacy That Lasts." I think there's a problem with the whole idea of legacy because without a vision, you have no defined legacy. You're not even working towards something. You're just existing, right?

Donnie Griggs: That's right. Way too many of us, we wait so long to think about this. We just keep imagining that one day we'll face it, and then before we know it, it's almost too late. We've gotten so far down the road in our lives and we've just piled up immense regret. We've hurt so many people along the way, we've disappointed people. Not having a compelling vision for how you want to finish your life, how you want to finish your race, to use Paul's language, it really keeps men from stepping into the kinds of lives we were made for.

Chuck Crismier: You know, the Bible actually says that where there is no vision, the people perish. So where there is no vision, a man essentially perishes. He doesn't move from boyhood to manhood, and certainly doesn't move from manhood to patriarchy, in other words, a leader among men. So we're lacking a kind of vision, it seems to me. Do you see that as a pastor in your church?

Donnie Griggs: Absolutely. One of the driving reasons for me to care about this is how many meetings I've had with men in our church who could not answer a simple question, which is what kind of man do you want to be? They lacked a clear, compelling vision. The best they could come up with was some kind of occupation they wanted to do. That's obviously not a great way to define your masculinity. Your job can change, you can get injured. Best case scenario, you retire. I know a lot of men who, without knowing it, really put their identity as men in their occupation, and then when they retire, they feel lost because their whole life, that's what defined them. So I see this all the time. I think very few men would have a clear, compelling vision for the kinds of men they want to be.

Chuck Crismier: There's a French word or phrase, "raison d'être," which means a reason for being. It seems that what we're really saying is that men are lacking a raison d'être, a true reason for being. They think, well, I'm going to get married or I'm going to have sex or I'm going to have a kid or I'm going to do this or I'm going to have a job, but that is not a very far-reaching raison d'être, is it?

Donnie Griggs: No, it's not. What happens is you get to all of those points and they never really satisfy what you thought they would, and so you begin to look for something else.

Chuck Crismier: Okay. Sociologists, both in the Christian world and outside, are saying that one of the greatest blights upon our society right now is within Generation Z and the Millennial generation. They call it the "failure to launch." It's seen as kids who are still living at home when they're 30 years old. They can't seem to catch a vision for doing anything. They take no responsibility. They feel like they have a sense of entitlement, and so they just can't launch. They can't launch into marriage, they can't launch into anything that heretofore we would have defined as a man leading the way for his family. Why is that?

Donnie Griggs: I do think it comes back to they don't have a vision. They haven't been told this is what they've been made for. They lack that clear vision, they lack that mandate, they lack the moment where they step into that and they just kind of get stuck. Then you throw into that all of the online world. It's becoming more and more AI now, but it's been this way for years where there's a whole world in which men can exist that perpetuates boyhood. The studies are showing that less and less men are actually having actual sex because they don't need to. Less and less men are getting married because there's no cultural expectation on them to do that. We have normalized men basically staying boys.

Chuck Crismier: Wow. I've got tears kind of welling up in my eyes because it's a blight. It's a characteristic of our generation that is very serious if we're on the near edge of the second coming. Do you think that we're approaching the second coming of Christ rapidly?

Donnie Griggs: That's such a good question. You kind of wonder how much worse can things get.

Chuck Crismier: Well, it's only because of God's patience and mercy that he hasn't brought his wrath upon us yet. All right, you're a pastor. How do you communicate to men, young men, men in their 30s and 40s, men in their 60s and 70s? There's value in men at every age, isn't there?

Donnie Griggs: There is, absolutely.

Chuck Crismier: I really believe that grandparents, grandfathers, have a tremendous responsibility and capability if we truly had a kingdom vision. I sense that the problem is we just don't have a kingdom vision.

Donnie Griggs: Absolutely. For many older men, the vision that they've worked towards their whole life is retirement. I just know so many of these guys who what they look forward to then just disappoints them because at the end of the day, we were made to count to our very last breath.

The guys I know who all that they have to look forward to is golf or fishing are actually profoundly unhappy men. That's because we were made to count, we were made to give meaning. One of my favorite scriptures when I think about older men, but I think about even my own life, is in Zechariah 8. You get this picture where these older men are at the age in which the scripture says they need a staff to even stand up. They're well advanced in years, but it says that they sit in the center of the city and the children play safely. There's this picture of even at that stage in life, what they're doing is creating safety for those around them. If kids can play in the street, it's safe. I wish that older men listening to this program, certainly the older men in my church, I want them to see how wanted and how needed they are. There's such an opportunity right now to bring younger men through, to teach younger men, and to cast a vision for what it looks like to really finish well.

Chuck Crismier: You have said, by the way, I like that term "finishing well." It brings to mind what would you want people to say, what would you hope people would say about you at the end of your life? Have you thought about that, Donnie?

Donnie Griggs: I have. I've thought about it a lot. I've kind of lived in 2 Timothy 4 for the last couple of years. Paul's there towards the end of his life, and what he's able to say with conviction is he fought the fight, he kept the faith, he finished the race, and he's now looking forward to meeting Jesus and getting this crown of righteousness. That to me is such an incredible picture of what it looks like to finish well, to make it to the end of your race, to fight all the fights. You think of Caleb who wasn't backing down just because he was advanced in years, but still wanted to fight every fight that the Lord had given him to fight. He was 80 years old, and he wasn't going to let that stop him. I think there's so much power in that. I have been captivated by that image. I've thought more and more about being really clear. I want those who know me to be able to say I was a good man. So then what do I have to live like now for that to be the case?

Chuck Crismier: You mentioned Timothy and Paul's letter to Timothy about finishing the course. When my father, who was a pastor for 50 years and then 20 years after that was a chaplain in a hospital, finished his course after 70 years in ministry, I asked the Lord, "Who was my father?" That was the question I asked. "Who was my father from your viewpoint?" And the Lord responded to me instantly, "He was a soldier of the cross."

So at his memorial service, I shared that story with the people. I believe my father was not a perfect man, but he was a soldier of the cross. He had a vision and he laid that out, lived it out as best he understood in his years and in his timing and the experiences that he had. He was a soldier of the cross. He never gave up. He went through a lot of very difficult times, but he never gave up, kept pressing on for the kingdom of God. I think that's what the Apostle Paul wrote also to Timothy. He said, "You're called to be a good soldier." Where are the good spiritual soldiers of our day, Donnie?

Donnie Griggs: I think there's such opportunity in the church for us to lift men's heads and call them to this. While we are busy just staring at our phones and compromising in all kinds of ways, there is a real battle that's taking place and a lot of us are just asleep at the wheel. We're not actually stepping into the hardness, the sadness, the suffering around us in the way that God's made us to. God has made man, one of the things he's made us to do is to serve and protect. I just look around at so much suffering and I just think, where are the men who are moving toward this, who are willing to stand in the breach, who are willing to do something about it?

Chuck Crismier: Standing in the gap. You've got a list of traits as a template for what makes a good man: He embraces responsibility, he serves and protects, he blesses and encourages, he walks with other good men, and he follows the only perfect man who ever lived, that was Christ himself. If we don't have that vision straightly before us, we're going to end up in deep trouble anyway.

Friends, the book is a very encouraging book. Donnie, you can hear him speak. there's a passion in his voice as he speaks as a father to the men in his congregation, to you, to all of us. *Becoming Good Men*. $14 will put this $15 book in your hands. It's on our website saveus.org, saveus.org. Give us a call at 1-800-SAVE-USA, that's 1-800-SAVE-USA or write to us at Save America Ministries, P.O. Box 70879, Richmond, Virginia, 23255. Write a check and add $6 for postage and handling. What you're going to find here is encouragement. Please do not give up on men. Ladies, do not give up on your man. Don't be the shrew, but don't give up on him. Pray for him. Let the Holy Spirit bring conviction and empower him to become the man that you desire him to be and that God ordained him to be. We'll be right back.

Guest (Male): There is so much more about Chuck Crismier and Save America Ministries on our website saveus.org. For example, under the marriage section, God has marriage on his mind. Chuck has some great resources to strengthen your marriage. First off, a fact sheet on the state of the marital union, a fact sheet on the state of ministry, marriage, and morals. saveus.org. Marriage, divorce, and remarriage. What does the Bible really teach about this? Find all of this at saveus.org. Also, a letter to pastors, the Hosea Project, saveus.org, and many more resources to strengthen your marriage. It's all on Chuck's website saveus.org. Again, you can listen to Chuck's Viewpoint broadcasts live and archived on Save America Ministries website at saveus.org.

Chuck Crismier: Time to give up childish ways and become men, the men that God called us to be. To become a man is not to be born with the male chromosome, it's to become what that male chromosome was intended to produce for his kingdom. That's the difference. It's a vision, it's a greater vision that we have not embraced. We've had parents that did not convey that vision, many did not, and so it leaves a lot of young men in the lurch.

But we don't want young men to be in the lurch. Our special guest today, Donnie Griggs, pastor in North Carolina, has a passion for men in that regard, and that's why he wrote the book, *Becoming Good Men*. Donnie, I'm a few years older than you, I suspect, having practiced law for 20 years, before that taught school for nine years, having pastored for 35 years and having been on our broadcast now for 31 years. I'm almost as old as Moses, and I've been around a bit. From coast to coast, my greatest passion has been for men. When I was younger, practicing law, I was involved with CBMC, the Christian Businessmen's Committee in Pasadena, California. I served as the chairman for 10 years, spoke there once a month, and always trying to build up men. It's a tough calling. Have you found that to be tough?

Donnie Griggs: I have. First, let me just say thank you to you for a lifetime of that. I'm sure you have no idea how many people you've reached by all of that effort reaching men. So I just want to tell you what an inspiration that is to me to not give up. Thank you for all the ways in which you've been working to strengthen men and encourage men. Absolutely. For me, it has been a challenge. often you find yourself wanting for men more than they want for themselves, and the journey to help them catch a vision, the journey for them to actually embrace this. So many men struggle with shame, and it's like the air we breathe. It's that we're not enough, we never will be enough. I just find men so desperately need to be encouraged because we just walk with a limp, always, even some of those listening are feeling like, man, I know I should be better, I know I should be doing more. There's this sense in which we kind of live with this cloud over our heads. So often for me, the challenge is just to help men to begin to believe that actually they can be good men.

Chuck Crismier: You know what the word "encourage" means? It means to give courage. That's what it means: to give courage. The famous philosopher Goethe said, "Wealth lost, something lost. Courage lost, all lost." We desperately need courage. Here we are ready to celebrate our 250th anniversary of the political birth of our country, and those that were most courageous came earlier.

The ones that came over on those boats, John Winthrop, a godly attorney who brought over four boatloads of Puritans, a tremendous act of faith. He had a vision that was so immense. At 40 years of age, he brought over those people here and penned what some say is the greatest vision of the American vision ever penned, called "A Model of Christian Charity." He set the stage, he discipled. He was a man's man. Here he was an attorney that led the spiritual direction of the country that has never left the threads that made up America. We need men like that, don't we?

Donnie Griggs: We do. It is wild to think about that. It feels like so many of our really good examples that we would look to were so long ago. But that God-given ability to step up and to be the men that God made us to be has not changed. So that's what gets me excited, is how much opportunity there is.

Chuck Crismier: All right, I want to shift our focus a little bit right here. We're still talking about good and godly men, and I want to go back to Psalm 112, one of my favorites. "Blessed is the man that fears the Lord, that delights greatly in his commandments." Now, that doesn't ring very true for an awful lot of men. It just kind of goes right over the top of the head. "Well, yeah, I want to be blessed," but that's not the focus of this. The focus of this passage is fearing the Lord.

I've been concerned about this for a very long time. I have asked over the past five to seven years many a pastor and para-church leader on this program, when was the last time you heard anybody use the phrase "a God-fearing man"? Could you remember that in the last 30 years, ever hearing somebody use that phrase? As I recall, not one could remember such a thing. And yet it used to be the most characteristic phrase throughout entire history of this country to describe what was conceived to be a good man: one whose word was his bond, who could be trusted, who was responsible, who would take the responsibility and really had a vision for being a true man. But it all was rooted in the fear of the Lord. Whatever happened to that?

Donnie Griggs: Man, I don't know, but I wish we could go back.

Chuck Crismier: I've gone from preaching to meddling now, haven't I?

Donnie Griggs: Yeah, but you're right. That's where it starts is when you begin to see yourself through the lenses of who God made you to be. I think that's what we've got to go right back to the Garden. What did God make man to be? What was our original purpose? What God described there, what he laid out there, I think the world's craving men like this. Even if it doesn't want men, it needs men to be like that.

Chuck Crismier: You know, when my book *Hearts of the Fathers* came out, it was shocking in a sense that two-thirds of all those books were purchased by women. Why would you say that would be?

Donnie Griggs: Well, I've had a similar experience where a lot of wives, a lot of moms, a lot of single moms are interacting with this book. I think women really do want men to be men. I think a lot of women really do want that. You kind of wonder where we're at societally, if there's a tipping point that's coming with all the pushback we've had over the last several years around masculinity. It's left a void, and I think now that void is being really sensed. I wonder if we won't see something swing back toward at least the middle where there'll be a more overt public desire again for men to step up. It's just not working out, this idea of men just disappearing and us not having any kind of masculinity.

Chuck Crismier: I remember being invited to speak to a group of African American women. Now, that may seem strange for this white guy in the South to be asked to speak to a group of African American women, but there were about 100 of them. As I spoke concerning hearts of the fathers and the importance of being men and so on, it was as if they were totally captivated. It was like they became cheerleaders. It was like, this is what I've been craving for my man to be.

It causes me great pain, great lament, that it's not just African American men that aren't stepping up to the plate, but we know that 70 percent of their children are born out of wedlock. We also know from the testimony of black leaders in our country over the past 25 years that the black family is collapsing and there's no respect between black women and black men. Why? What's happened? There's no sense of patriarchy, no sense of genuine manhood, genuine fatherhood other than sperm donation.

Donnie Griggs: The data says that fatherlessness is the greatest predictor of fatherlessness. I think that's the world that we are living in. We are now suffering the consequences of now a couple of generations of men abandoning their posts as dads. What a lot of I've met so many men who say something along the lines of, "I'm not going to be like my dad." But that's not a vision for masculinity. That's a hopeful wish. Regrettably, what happens is they end up becoming just like their dads, that's what the data shows. At some point in time, men have got to obviously acknowledge the hurt and pain caused from their dad not being present in their story, not being present in their life, but then begin to plot a different course toward something better.

Chuck Crismier: If you follow the trajectory of the men in Scripture that are honored or dishonored, I ask you, what would be the premier connecting link? Those that are honored today and those that are looked upon with dishonor? Maybe that's part of the key. I think it is, because I think it's linked to the fear of the Lord. Obviously, Adam did not fear the Lord; he feared his wife. If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. So he feared his wife rather than fearing God. Look at the tyranny of Satan over human history since then. We don't look at Adam as honorable. He was not honorable. Why? Because he didn't honor God. He didn't fear God and therefore he didn't obey him. Maybe, just maybe, there's a reason why the word "obey" has become almost nothing but a four-letter word among Christians today. Let's talk about that after the break. Friends, we're talking about *Becoming Good Men*. What is a good man from God's viewpoint? That's the only viewpoint that counts, right, guys? Here's a great book to help get us in the stream of God's blessing to begin to bring about the change that we say we want. *Becoming Good Men*. $14 on the website saveus.org, 1-800-SAVE-USA. We'll be right back.

Guest (Male): Have you ever considered what the early church was like? Many people are developing a heart longing for a greater fulfillment in our practices as Christians. A recent study showed 53,000 people a week are leaving the back door of America's churches in frustration. What is going on? Why has there not been even a one percent gain among followers of Christ in the last 25 years? Could it be that God is seeking to restore first-century Christianity for the 21st century? Jesus said, "I'll build my church." Is Christ by His Spirit stirring to prepare the church for the 21st century? The early church prayed together and broke bread from house to house. They were family, and it was said by all who observed, "Behold how they love one another." Incredible, but the same can be found right now. Go to saveus.org and click Cell Church. We can revive first-century Christianity for the 21st century. It's about people, not programs. It's about a body, not a building. That's saveus.org, click Cell Church.

Chuck Crismier: *Becoming Good Men* from God's viewpoint. What does that take and why aren't we there? What is inhibiting that? What is standing in the way of becoming the men that God would have us be? That's what we're looking for in this final segment of the program here today with our special guest, Donnie Griggs, pastor in North Carolina. Pastor, tell me, do you have kids?

Donnie Griggs: I do. I've got two sons.

Chuck Crismier: And what are their ages?

Donnie Griggs: Jedd is 14 and Wyatt is 11.

Chuck Crismier: All right, you've got your challenges cut out for you. They're boys, though. So how are they going to become men?

Donnie Griggs: That is my number one priority. What I'm doing is being as intentional as I can be. That works itself out in a lot of different ways. We have breakfast on Saturdays at a diner where we talk about manhood. One of the things we do is for my 14-year-old, we had a rite of passage moment. I roped in other men who I wanted him to be able to look to as other examples. We had a whole moment where he even burned something that was significant from his childhood. Men wrote letters to him, we gave gifts, we prayed for him, and really welcomed him into an intentional journey toward becoming a man. My goal is by the time he's 18 and launches out, he's got a real clear sense of what it is that God's made him for and he's ready to do it.

Chuck Crismier: That is so wonderful. You've got your challenges because the spirit of this age is contrary in every way. The spirit of the so-called social media is contrary in every way.

Donnie Griggs: Right. Yeah, we're going to avoid that as long as we possibly can. So we spend a lot of energy thinking about that. How do we push back on what have been cultural norms for kids their age and really give them a chance to actually grow up and become good men?

Chuck Crismier: What would you say to a woman who for whatever reason has no man in the house, a father is not in the house? What would you say to her to encourage her as to how to somehow lead her sons into manhood?

Donnie Griggs: I know some women like this, and they read what they can get their hands on, they listen to whatever they can listen to. They know that there's a gap there and they're trying to fill it and learn whatever they can. But I think the best way to do this is if you can be part of a local church where there's a good men's ministry and you get your sons around other men. masculinity bestows masculinity. I think to get them around men who can be spiritual uncles, spiritual fathers to them, I'm that for several young men. I'm their like uncle, I serve in that role, and it's a privilege to get to do that. That's what I would say is to try to find good godly men who can get around your sons and impart to them the things that they need.

Chuck Crismier: All right, you desire for your sons to love you, right?

Donnie Griggs: I do.

Chuck Crismier: But what would be the greatest manifestation, measurable, observable manifestation that they love you?

Donnie Griggs: I think it goes back to obedience.

Chuck Crismier: Exactly. That's the key. And that's what's missing. That's what's missing in God's house. The word "obey," believe it or not, has fallen on extremely hard times. I cannot tell you how many pastors and para-church leaders I've had on this program over the last eight to ten years now who have admitted that the word "obey" is the most despised, hated word in the church. We don't want to be told what to do. That's human nature.

It's also American nature. We're rebels, and in the South even more so. Think about it. It's the spirit of rebellion. I tell you, we're dealing with something that is very great here. If the word "obey" is deemed to be a four-letter word in God's house so that pastors are afraid to teach about it, which they are, because the people don't want to hear it. "You're not going to control me, you're not going to tell me what to do. No, I want God to love me." Yes, Jesus said if you love me, you'll keep my commandments. Oh, well, that's not the Jesus I want to serve. I want to serve the Oprah Winfrey Jesus. So we've got a real tension even in our evangelical churches all across the country. Very big tension.

If you go back to the men in the Bible in the Old Testament, in fact in the New Testament too, all of the men that we revere going back are not the men who rebelled. They're the men who obeyed. To obey is God's key to manhood. If you can't learn to obey as a child, you're fixed in boyhood for the rest of your life. Does that make sense?

Donnie Griggs: Absolutely. I was recently going through the Old Testament again and I was struck by how many men their entire life was summed up with this same line, which is, "And he did what was evil in the sight of the Lord." Man after man, king after king, whose entire life was really summed up by this haunting statement. To your point, those are not good men. Those are not the men that we're looking to be good examples.

Chuck Crismier: I mean, you look at a guy like Eli, he was a high priest, and he had a couple of sons and they were involved in so-called church work, but they were perverting God's house. They were not obeying, they were not honoring the Lord, and therefore they were not honoring their father in his role and position. But neither was Eli because he refused to correct them. He was so afraid of them and being offensive because he might bring correction that he failed, and God says, "You're out of here. I'm not going to allow a single person to endure out of your DNA for the rest of history." That's horrible.

Donnie Griggs: This is a discipleship crisis. We have unfortunately only talked about Jesus being Savior and not talked about Him being Lord. That sets people up for failure when it comes to following God. So I think this is where every opportunity I get, certainly I'm trying to make sure I emphasize both of those things equally.

Chuck Crismier: How's your 11-year-old? How are you doing with him?

Donnie Griggs: He's awesome. He loves the Lord, he's passionate about the Lord. I see a lot of emerging really good traits with both of them. It gives me hope because I'm sure I'm not the only one who didn't have the dad that we really wished we had and needed to have. My dad in some senses did the best that he could, but he was imprisoned for a while. My childhood was not easy. I just look at the kindness of God to be able to help me despite that to raise boys who are getting a clear, compelling vision for manhood at such an early age and beginning to step into that and move toward that.

Chuck Crismier: In other words, your history doesn't have to define your future. That's a very important thing that you just shared with us, Donnie. Your past, your future, excuse me, your past and that which came before you doesn't have to define what comes after you. But that takes courage. That takes courage and it takes vision to move beyond that. I bless you in that regard.

You know, before we wrap up, one of the greatest I'm not a movie hog, believe me. I don't know hardly anything about movies except one: *Chariots of Fire*. Came out in what, 1982 or something like that, and so profound was the impact of that movie on me that I have made sure that my grandchildren saw it at least once and some several times. I've watched it numerous times.

Here's a guy who he had a goodly heritage, but he didn't have to live that out. Here he was a fast runner, in fact he was Scotland's fastest wing. He had all kinds of notoriety and all kinds of other calls on his life, but the thing that set him apart was God's purpose in his life. And even when he ran, he said, "When I run, I feel His pleasure." Gives me goosebumps just saying those words right now. How many men out there, how many men out there have this sense that when I do what I do, I feel His pleasure?

Donnie Griggs: That is the hope, to get men to understand that is possible. There is a way of being a man where you actually feel God's pleasure, where you feel like you were doing what you were made to do.

Chuck Crismier: You know, I'm proofreading my 12th book right now called *The Power to Overcome*. And as I proofread, there's labor in that, but when I do that, I feel His pleasure. When I'm sitting here with you, Donnie, and we're talking together as two men, using technology, yes, but not slaves to the technology, you and I feel His pleasure, don't we? It is so important. Pray for the men right now, will you?

Donnie Griggs: God, thank you for every single man listening to this. I know the way the enemy works, which is probably in the entire time has just heaped accusation after accusation, this voice of shame that they cannot be the man they were made to be and a host of reasons why and sins and excuses and the brokenness from their own family of origin. God, I just pray, Lord, that you would encourage men. Lord, that you would speak courage to them even now. Lord, that you would lift their heads, that you would fill their hearts. Lord, that you would speak to them and invite them into a journey of becoming the kinds of men they were made to be, the men that they need to be.

God, I pray that for those that are married or have kids, Lord, that their families would even feel and notice a difference. Lord, as they breathe their last breath, God, would you make it one where they don't have this pile of regret from a life that wasn't well lived, but they feel like they finished their race well and they've left a legacy, they've passed the baton on to the next generation in a way that will continue to give you glory. In Jesus' name, amen.

Chuck Crismier: Amen. And friend, here is my ultimate encouragement for you. The Apostle Paul was not a good man. He was not a good guy. He was a persecutor of the Christians, big time. And God had to knock him off his high horse to get his attention. Maybe, just maybe, this broadcast today serves that purpose for you. But here's what Paul said: forgetting those things that are behind now. I can't focus on them, they're things of the past. And pressing forward unto the things that are ahead, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. That, my friend, is your calling.

If that can happen to the Apostle Paul, who was Saul of Tarsus, a persecutor, a supreme persecutor of God and his son Christ and Christians, he can do it for you. Can't live in the past. The future begins today. Today is the day of salvation, today is the day of manhood, today is the day of picking up your cross and following Christ as a man. You can do it. You can do it because God's grace is there, it's His enabling power to enable you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Accept it and press on. By God's grace, be a blessing. Become a partner, friends. Send your gifts by faith to Save America Ministries. Do it today, don't delay. This is the way we stay on the air. Almost 31 years now. In a month and a half, 31 years. We're pressing toward the mark. You can help get the message out more broadly. Do you value it? Then help us get the message out. God bless, be a blessing, and men, "quit you like men," the Apostle Paul said. That means get with it. You're a man.

Guest (Male): You've been listening to Viewpoint with Chuck Crismier. Viewpoint is supported by the faithful gifts of our listeners. Let me urge you to become a partner with Chuck as a voice to the church declaring vision for the nation. Join us again next time on Viewpoint as we confront the issues of America's heart and home.