Running To Win 15 Minute Version

Narrator: Let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith. Two lives, two legacies, two worldviews still at battle today. Marxist ideas are infiltrating the most unlikely places in America. Karl Marx and D.L. Moody: the contrast between these men could not be greater.

Today, another interview about Marx and Moody, a book co-authored by Erwin Lutzer and Greg Quiggle. From the Moody Church in Chicago, this is Running to Win with Dr. Erwin Lutzer, whose clear teaching helps us make it across the finish line. Here now are Pastor Lutzer and co-author Greg Quiggle to give us more details on the stark differences between Karl Marx and D.L. Moody.

Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer: This is Pastor Lutzer. Thank you so much for joining us for a very special episode of Running to Win. I have an author with me here in the studio that I will introduce to you in just a moment. We have written a book together, and you might be surprised at the title.

So just a word of explanation. About a year ago, I gave a lecture at the tomb of Karl Marx in London, trying to help people to understand his continuing impact: who he was, what the Communist Manifesto taught. But as I was preparing the lecture, I realized that he was actually a contemporary of D.L. Moody for 46 years.

And as I mentioned in the last program, we have no evidence that Marx ever attended a meeting by D.L. Moody in England. Of course, Moody was preaching to large crowds every single night. Engels, who helped write the Communist Manifesto, did attend, and what he said about it is fascinating. I referred to it very briefly last time.

The title of the book is Marx and Moody: Two Contemporaries, Two Gospels, Two Tombstones, and One Choice. You may say, well, why do you include tombstones in the title? Well, actually at the end of the book, I write a chapter as we go to the tomb of Karl Marx, as we go to the tomb of Moody, and we talk about their legacies.

And one of the emphases we have in the book is this: we all want to ask ourselves how will we be remembered. And what this book does is it showcases two different approaches to the world, a contrast actually between Moody, who preached the gospel of Jesus Christ but also was very involved in social issues, and Karl Marx, who had his own atheistic explanation as to what was wrong, and the explanation that he gave ended up being terrifying.

Now before I introduce our guest, I do want to remind you that the Communist Manifesto, which I discuss in detail in the book, is actually one that has some terrifying statements. Let me give you the very last—there are many people who read the last comment in the Communist Manifesto and they skip the comment that comes just before it. I'm going to read it for you.

"The Communists disdain to conceal their views. They openly declare that their ends can only be attained by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling class tremble at the Communist revolution." And then in another quotation, Karl Marx says that he does not apologize for the violence. He indicates that there is going to be a great deal of violence.

Now this is something that's important for us to understand. I hope I have time to talk about how Marxism came to America without violence, but that's another story. Greg, I'm so glad to have you here and to be a co-author with you in this book, Marx and Moody. What is it that motivates you about D.L. Moody?

Greg Quiggle: Well, I think Mr. Moody has been misunderstood and misrepresented. And I think Mr. Moody has a lot to say to us today. One of the things that Mr. Moody teaches us is the importance of never separating evangelism and working to address the needs of the poor.

Moody certainly prioritizes them, as I believe the Bible does. Jesus prioritized them, but he never said we should do one and disregard the other. And his life and work is a beautiful illustration of a biblical model of how to do both gospel preaching and evangelism and at the same time practically address the needs of the poor.

Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer: The person that you hear speaking is Greg Quiggle, who used to teach at Moody Bible Institute. He wrote the section on D.L. Moody in the book, and I wrote the section on Karl Marx. And in a few moments, we're going to be giving you some contact info as to how this book can be yours.

But Greg, isn't it interesting? People may not realize how famous Moody was. He interacted with three presidents.

Greg Quiggle: Indeed. As a young man, he started a Sunday school in Chicago, and President-elect Abraham Lincoln stopped in the Sunday school in Chicago. It had become so famous that Lincoln said, "I've got to see this for myself." There were over a thousand street kids that were attending his Sunday school. So Lincoln came by.

Later on, President U.S. Grant and his cabinet attended one of Moody's revival meetings in 1876. And then we don't have an exact date, and he wasn't president yet, but Woodrow Wilson was one time getting a haircut, of all things, and Mr. Moody came in to get a haircut, sat right beside Wilson.

Wilson talked about listening to Moody talk to his barber and the other people, and he said it was like being in a church service. The way that Moody spoke to these men about their souls, the way he had regard for them as people, his interest in these other men in the room—he said it was an extraordinary thing to see how Moody interacted with human beings.

Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer: Of course, there's so much that we could talk about, but I can't help but go back to the Sunday school, because that actually was the beginning of Moody Church, wasn't it?

Greg Quiggle: Yes, it was. And it says something about Mr. Moody. We mentioned in the last program he grew up poor. He was also poorly educated; he only had five years of formal education. Moody had a burden for poor kids.

One time he came back from a meeting and they said, "How did it go?" and he said, "We had two and a half converts." And they said, "Oh, two adults and a kid?" He said, "No, two kids and an adult. The kids have their entire life to give to the Lord." So he concentrated on kids, especially poor kids. He had this burden for poor urban kids.

Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer: And he tried to take them to church, and they didn't want these kids because they were too rowdy. So Moody says, "I'm beginning my own Sunday school," but he's also beginning his own church. And that of course is dear to my heart, having been the senior pastor at the Moody Church for 36 years. And of course, after that came the Moody Bible Institute.

I love the fact that Moody was such a humble man that he refused to take any credit for the fact that he was famous. He was front-page news in England, especially when he had his tour through the British Isles and so forth. And so Moody's impact is ongoing, but so is the impact of Karl Marx.

I want to say a word about him, since the title of the book is Marx and Moody. At the end of this broadcast, I'll be giving you some contact info as to how this book can be yours. I want to discuss very briefly: how did Marxism come to the United States? That of course should interest us.

As a matter of fact, you parents know what it's like to send a child to college nowadays, and they come back and they are thinking differently than you are. Maybe it's based on some of the things that Karl Marx says about truth in the Communist Manifesto. That of course becomes very important: how you understand history and so forth.

But this is the point I want to make. There was in Italy a communist during the Mussolini era, and he was wondering how communism could come to America. He looked at what happened in Russia, and he knew that that was not a great advertisement for communism. So he said that in America, Marxism is exactly the philosophy that must kill Christianity.

He saw three roadblocks to Marxism. He saw, first of all, Christianity, the family, and capitalism. Now actually, Gramsci was sitting in prison. Why would a man like Mussolini want him in prison? People have to understand there is a distinction between fascism and communism. Fascism is very nationalistic; that's why Hitler and Mussolini were friends. Communism pays no attention really to those kinds of distinctions. It has to do with class warfare.

Now, Gramsci writes a paper on how it can come to the United States, and this is so relevant, I couldn't believe it. He says that Christianity can be used to bring in communism because the language of the New Testament, some of the sayings of Jesus, can be turned into political language. Statements like Jesus said, "Blessed are the poor" can be used to promote communism.

Now, this is what he says: "It is a question of translating the religious language into historical-political language, of showing how the same aspirations that Christianity places in the beyond can be realized here on earth through the collective action of men." I hope you don't miss it. What he is saying is: translate the language of the heaven above to a heaven below and use Christianity to promote the Marxist ideas.

Fascinating. And of course, that's exactly what some churches have done. As they've sunk into liberalism, they have seen that relationship. In the book, I have an entire chapter on democratic socialism, and there I show why it is so attractive. I also discuss issues like: in the Communist Manifesto, did Marx distinguish between communism and socialism? I answer that question.

Also, did Marx believe in democracy? Fascinating. Yes, after a fashion. For a gift of any amount, we're making this book available for you. It's entitled Marx and Moody: Two Contemporaries, Two Gospels, Two Tombstones, and One Choice. Thank you so much for joining hands with us because we have a goal in mind, and that is to please the Lord, to live for him all the way to the finish line.

Narrator: Two different belief systems, two different destinies. Eternity will reveal who was right and who was very wrong. Next time, more from our second discussion about Marx and Moody. Plan to join us.

Running to Win is all about helping you find God's roadmap for your race of life. Only a few days remain for you to ask for a copy of Marx and Moody. It's our gift to you when you give a gift of any amount to support Running to Win. This book clarifies the contrast between darkness and light, and it will be sent at your request.

For full information, call us toll-free at 1-800-215-5001. That's 1-800-215-5001. Online, go to offerrtw.com. That's offerrtw.com. Or write to us at Running to Win, Moody Church, 1635 North LaSalle Boulevard, Chicago, Illinois, 60614. This is Dave McAllister. Running to Win comes to you as a ministry of the Moody Church.