ReFOCUS with Jim Daly

Guest (Male): Pastors, if you are struggling to help couples in your church whose marriage is in trouble, we can help. Marriage 911 by Focus on the Family trains laypeople to mentor married couples. Each kit includes two training guides, four workbooks, and all the training necessary to meet with couples who need help. Go to Marriage911.com. That is Marriage, the numbers 9-1-1, .com.

Seetan Li: So I walked toward her, trembling, kneeled down, and she was shocked. She thought she was a dead meat. She knew who I was, and nobody, the rest of them, they didn’t know what was going on. So I said, "My dear sister, God had forgiven me, therefore he asked me to forgive you."

Guest (Male): That is Seetan Li with a brief portion of his amazing testimony. He is my guest today on ReFOCUS with Jim Daly, a podcast production of Focus on the Family. You are about to hear a story that is almost too incredible to believe. One that begins in the killing fields of Cambodia in the 1970s and leads to a life transformed by faith, forgiveness, and purpose.

Many of Seetan Li’s aspirations as a young man were shattered when the Khmer Rouge seized control of Cambodia. He was forced from his home, separated from his family, and endured unspeakable horrors of violence, starvation, torture, and the constant threat of death. Yet in the middle of that darkness, something remarkable happened. In a moment of desperation, Seetan cried out to a God he didn’t yet know, and that cry would change the trajectory of his life forever.

What followed is a story of redemption, and Seetan and his wife, Ronda, have gone on to create some incredible ministry outreaches in Cambodia. Seetan even shared Christ with some of his persecutors with remarkable results. He wrote about it in a book called Miracles in the Forgotten Land and Beyond. He lives in Aurora, Colorado, right near us, where he heads up a ministry called Transform Asia. He made the trip down to talk with us in studio. I hope you enjoy that you are inspired and encouraged with this episode of ReFOCUS with Jim Daly.

Jim Daly: Seetan, thank you so much for joining me on ReFOCUS. It is great to have you.

Seetan Li: It is my honor. It's a great pleasure to be here.

Jim Daly: You have such a powerful story of God’s faithfulness, and that’s why I wanted to have you on primarily, because it is so powerful to see God work through a person the way that he’s worked through you and the way that he’s changed your heart.

Before we get to the core of the story, though, I want to paint the picture, have you paint the picture for what was going on in the world when the Khmer Rouge was in power in Cambodia. Most of us here in America, because America was engaged in Vietnam, the Vietnam War—my brother was in the Navy. He was in Vietnam for several years during his four-year commitment in the Navy. So he participated in that way. But what was happening in Cambodia? Just talk to me as if you’re educating me on what Cambodia was about.

Seetan Li: Well Jim, this is a very emotional time of the year. So April 17th marked the 51st anniversary of the killing fields in Cambodia. It so happened in the time where the whole country is celebrating the Cambodian New Year.

Jim Daly: What year was that?

Seetan Li: That was 1975. So 51 years ago.

Jim Daly: So just after the end or near the end of the Vietnam War and the US withdrawal.

Seetan Li: Pretty much almost the same time. So we are kind of victims of the Vietnam War, basically.

Jim Daly: What was that relationship between the Viet Cong that we were fighting in Vietnam and the Cambodian government at that time? Were they allies, or were they at odds with each other?

Seetan Li: Cambodia was then an independent country. So somehow the former leader, the former king, the late king, was allowing the Viet Cong to kind of escape to Cambodia. So anywhere from 20,000 to 30,000 Viet Cong soldiers were hiding or taking a safe haven in Cambodia.

Jim Daly: I mean, it shared that border, and so you as a people were pretty engaged and impacted by the Vietnam War. What was being a boy like in Cambodia before the Khmer Rouge took power? What was life like?

Seetan Li: Well, Cambodia was changing a regime from a Kingdom of Cambodia in 1970. So I remember 18th of March 1970 when the former general of Cambodia would basically take over the country and change from the Kingdom of Cambodia to Republic Khmer, which was under the support of America, basically.

Jim Daly: Oh, it was?

Seetan Li: Yes. So 1970 to 1975.

Jim Daly: So this is Pol Pot?

Seetan Li: No, not yet. This is Lon Nol. General Lon Nol was then during the Kingdom of Cambodia, he was the military leader or Prime Minister or something.

Jim Daly: So how long did that go on before Pol Pot took over?

Seetan Li: Actually five years. So anyway, the communists were using that against the new government that was set up, which was the Lon Nol government. It only lasted for less than five years, actually. So on April 1975 when the Khmer Rouge basically took power, it's right in the middle of the celebration of the Cambodian New Year.

People of Cambodia know there is war going on from 1970 to 1975 because a lot of people believed in our previous leader, the king. They called him "God King." So he had a deep devotion.

Jim Daly: So he was popular?

Seetan Li: Popular, very popular. So people were very upset. They were not really appreciative, although young people, we were happy with that, but that older generation didn’t because they believed our previous king was not only king, but he was also God.

So because of that, he kind of teamed up with the Khmer Rouge and China. So then people kind of supported him more than supporting the new government. So because of that, in 1975, the country collapsed.

Jim Daly: But being that boy, you were hoping to become a doctor, if I remember correctly? So you had aspirations.

Seetan Li: I basically just thank God that I—although I didn't know God then—I was used to having a photographic memory. So I graduated from high school at 13 years old. So actually, I got to meet the president because he wanted to see the kid who graduated with straight A's.

Jim Daly: That’s right. And you graduated early, right? Like 14?

Seetan Li: I graduated and then I got a full scholarship to go to medical school at 13. I mean, that’s amazing. So you must have been an incredibly bright young man, obviously.

Jim Daly: But I mean in that context, that’s what is so amazing. Here’s a young man with great potential, great hope. The world was in front of you. Where were you at spiritually? I mean, a predominant religion there is Buddhism.

Seetan Li: Yes, my family is not only called Buddhism as our religion, we were devout Buddhists. Actually, my grandfather was basically teaching Buddhist philosophy or religion in the school in our province. And my father was just like one of the principal supporters of Buddhist temple building. Wherever they wanted to build a new temple, he would be there. He would get the money, and if he didn’t have it, he would get his friends to support it and build the temple.

So we were so committed. And as a children growing up, we had what we call our god, an idol in our house. So before I went to school, I had to say, "Have a good day. I'm going to go to school" to the idol. That was our god. And coming home, "Okay, I'm home now." So that’s how we were devoted to the belief that we had. As far as Jesus or Christianity, I never heard of it. All I had heard was the word "Catholic." I didn’t know what it meant.

Jim Daly: And we’re going to get to that because you eventually do hear it very profoundly. But in that regard, describe your dad. He sounded like a good man. What was your family environment like? You had a brother? Any other siblings?

Seetan Li: We had, actually, my mom was a busy lady. She had 14 children. Three sets of twins. So there were six of them that were twins.

Jim Daly: Where were you in the pecking order?

Seetan Li: I'm number six. Number six. We still have nine of us who survived and all live in Colorado.

Jim Daly: Oh, that’s amazing.

Seetan Li: So anyway, we lost five. But we had a very, very good family. My dad was a businessman growing up, surrounding us with a lot of love, a lot of support and stuff.

Jim Daly: And I think that commonality, that’s what makes humanity very unique, I think. And the Christian faith makes it even more engaging for people around the world because, as I experienced in Kenya, talking to a PhD, Dr. Lillian Wahome—one of my early trips doing the international work at Focus on the Family—and we sat on a park bench and I said, "Lillian, will what we have to share at Focus on the Family be relevant in Africa?"

And she went, "Oh, it's like an American to think you invented the family." I thought that was so funny. But she said, "You know, the family is the international language. We all want a good marriage. We all want our children to do better, and we want to see them succeed in life." And she said, "If you’re talking about those things, especially with the spiritual undertone of commitment to Christ, you’re going to be relevant everywhere in the world."

And that was like a prophecy. It was exactly true. And that’s where we have such commonality with each other in family particularly, because we all come from one and we all want to be loved within our family and to love. And it sounds like your family had that. Which I can't imagine the bond of that going through something like the killing fields of Cambodia. It had to rip your mom and dad apart to see your brother pass away and those kinds of things. Let’s move back to the Cambodian New Year celebration in 1975. What happened on that day and how did it change?

Seetan Li: Well, war was there. Civil war started from 1970 to 1975 when we changed the regime. So every year in April, we celebrated the New Year. So life went on. There was gunfire here, gunfire there. We had a bunker when we went to school. So it had become like a norm in our life. And our family still stayed together. Our family still supported one another. Mom and dad loved us and we loved them. Our grandparents were so loving.

So we came from a very loving family and devoted to Buddhism, like I said. So that particular year, 1975, everything was falling apart. All the bridges, every highway and byway had been destroyed by the war. So they had been bombed, either bombed or shelled or anything. It was destroyed. So transportation had become like almost nonexistent. You couldn’t travel from one province to the next just by walking.

If you were able, you would fly on a helicopter or plane and stuff. There were some domestic flights and planes and stuff like that. And actually, my dad was involved in those domestic businesses and stuff. Anyway, I was separated from the family. I was living in the capital, going to the medical school, while the rest of my family was in the western side of the country, right next to Thailand. That’s where my dad did business with Thailand and others.

So I managed to get on a helicopter to come to Battambang to celebrate New Year. And I was just enjoying it. You still thought that the Khmer Rouge were also Cambodian. So we are Cambodian, so we might as well enjoy New Year. That’s what we thought. Everybody was thinking the same way. So they were not even paying attention about somebody going to take over or take advantage.

And that’s how the Khmer Rouge took advantage. We were celebrating. We were doing whatever the Buddhists teach us to do and stuff like that. And while we were celebrating, playing traditional games and so on and so forth, the Khmer Rouge just came in with children. I mean, they were not even full-age men. They were like teenagers with guns, rifles, and Chinese-made guns.

They came over and just pointed—actually I was playing in the temple court with my friend, who was from a medical school. He was a lot older than me, of course, because I was young. But we went to the same school, sat at the same table. And we were playing together, and they shot and killed him right in front of my eyes. And it was like, they came out and those kids just pointed guns at us and called us "enemy of the revolution."

And my friend was a very charismatic type of character, and he just said, "Hey, I don’t even know you. Get lost!" Bam. So he got killed right in front of my eyes and I was like, "Uh-oh." Life was changing completely.

Jim Daly: After something like that, I mean, what happens on day two for you? What’s going on?

Seetan Li: Well, actually, there was no day two at that time. That was the same day. And then the Khmer Rouge made an announcement that we had to evacuate everybody out of the city, byway and highway, because America was going to come and drop bombs. Because there was B-52 bombing in Cambodia in 1973 to 1975. So they were using that propaganda.

They said, "America is going to bomb every town, every city, highway and byway. So you need to leave. And don’t worry about your possession. Don’t worry about your relative, your family. Just leave as far as 30, 40 kilometers away from any street, any city highway and byway." But of course, you didn’t want to go. But then you got at the gunpoint. For me, I got a bayonet right on my forehead. So I said, "I don’t want to go." "Oh, you want to die then?"

So at gunpoint, I had to leave. But that’s not it. When you got there, they kept pushing you to where they wanted you to be. So I ended up going toward west. I thought I was going to go to Thailand, but I didn't make it. So halfway, I discovered my dad's car. I saw it on a street while I was walking, exhausted all day long. I had lost my shoes. The Khmer Rouge soldier took my shoes away.

Jim Daly: So you’re barefoot?

Seetan Li: Barefoot and blistered and everything was hurting. And here was my dad. And then I recognized the guy who sat in the car was a general for our province and a good friend of my dad. They were buddies. This guy came out of the car. My dad knew, because he had already transported—I found out later, not at that time—he had already been transporting some military leader in his car and they shot and killed all of them.

So this guy was the last one he went and picked up. And the guy thought, "Hey, we’re going to go welcome the..." They used the propaganda that said, "We’re going to welcome Prince Sihanouk," the one who was the previous leader, the ousted leader. "And we postpone the New Year for now. We’re going to celebrate it later." And it was just all a sham, propaganda.

So then this guy was so excited, he got out of the car. But my dad knew that he was going to get killed because he had seen it just like a few hours before. So anyway, he got out. I saw both my dad and him come out and I thought, "Uh-oh." So they shot and killed the general. My dad was alive, so they used him again.

He was just, "Get out! Get out as soon as you can because I don’t want them to know that you belong to me." I mean, think of a father’s situation. Well, you lived it. You don’t need to think about it. But for all of us, think of a dad in that spot trying to save his son. So frightening.

And then all the students, they asked them to go home and put on their school uniform. And all the professionals were told to put on their professional uniform. And they said we would go welcome the king back. But actually, they took them out and killed them.

Jim Daly: Now, this is the term of the killing fields, correct?

Seetan Li: Yes, that’s because they were everywhere. It wasn't one location. So describe the term "killing fields" and why was that applied to the situation? Because the very first day, it’s estimated to be about over a million people were killed on that day that started with my friend at the temple on that afternoon. So the rest of the day, it's not many hours later, many got killed.

Because of the way they used it, they were pretty well-planned to do that. Really a purging. And people just didn’t know. You had no idea that was going to happen, especially your fellow countryman. You never thought they were going to be that cruel. And that’s what happened. And then if you were educated, you were like junior high and all above, you were considered educated. So then you were subject to be executed.

So they executed pretty much most. In this country, you’re talking about reunion. I don’t have anyone to do reunion with me. They all died. Because they had been fooled by them. They put on the uniform. I didn’t do it because I didn’t trust them from the time they killed my friend. Everyone else went home and put on uniforms. I didn’t. Actually, I found a rag that my brother—I lived with my brother—he had the rag where you clean the floor. I put it on.

Jim Daly: So you look like a peasant? Right. In fact, that’s how they processed you, right? They saw you as an unlearned person. And here you’re a 13-, 14-year-old in medical school, probably one of the brightest people in Cambodia. But what happened with that? It was like a labor camp?

Seetan Li: Yes, it was what they called a youth concentration camp. So I started with the children. They had a children's concentration camp because I looked very small. I'm not chunky like I am today. So I was very small. So I fit well with the children. But after like six, seven months, they found out my age, that I was 15 and 16. So they said, "No, you’re supposed to be in the youth camp." So they switched me from the children camp to the youth camp.

Jim Daly: It was just hard labor.

Seetan Li: 20 hours a day. 20 a day, start at 4:00 AM, go to midnight. Starvation diet. That’s crazy. There was a pivotal moment when your identity was discovered. I think you’re describing it right now, but you were sentenced to die. And you cried out to God. So this begins the spiritual opening. It sounds like. So describe what happened there.

Seetan Li: Well, like I said, day one, when the Khmer Rouge came, we were celebrating the New Year. And my grandfather was a leader of the temple. So he was leading people to wash, clean the image of God, the idol. Once a year, they do that. And actually, the priests and the people in the temple do it first, and then they allow the public to do it.

And I'm so proud to be my grandfather's grandson because people obeyed him. Whatever he told them to do, they did. And while he was doing that, the Khmer Rouge came in. And they got a piece of our god that we used to worship—he brought it there as well in the temple court to be washed. And they broke it into pieces, and they used that and hit and killed my grandfather.

So he died. And my grandmother died. In front of me. At that time, it changed my perspective of who I believe. I thought, "This is not my god. He can't even help himself. He’s dead." So in '77, when they discovered me in the killing field when I was doing the rice plantation, they found my student identification at the University of Medicine. So somewhere, somehow they got it.

And I tried to protest against it. I said, "It was not me. Somebody looks like me. It was not me. I don’t know how to read." Every time they brought me the paper to read, I put it upside down. Pretending to just outsmart them. That’s called survival. Right. But when they saw this, they said, "No, it's you." So that’s when they arrested me and five other kids, high school kids.

I was a university kid, and they were high school kids. They were bigger than me, but they got slaughtered. And I was the last in line, blindfolded, naked. And I just cried out to the Lord of the universe. "Whoever you are, please spare my life, and I promise to be your witness." That was basically a short prayer.

Jim Daly: And you don’t even know exactly what direction that prayer is going. You’re just saying, "God of the Universe."

Seetan Li: And I tell the world, I say I thank God that he knows his name. And he recognized it, so he saved my life. As soon as I finished prayers, the executioner was ready, using a bamboo rod about to kill me. So I don’t even want to talk about it. It was pretty close to my neck. And then all of a sudden, the scream from behind, "Stop! Stop! Stop!"

It was a Khmer Rouge leader who ordered the execution. So he said, "He’s in trouble. Need to save that guy. He’s a university student and we need to increase the rice yield to three tons per hectare." So he didn’t make it. So he said, "This guy probably is smart enough to help us do that."

Jim Daly: Oh, that’s crazy. And I know nothing about agriculture. Right. I know nothing about rice. I know a lot, not a lot, enough about medicine, but not—so what did they have you do?

Seetan Li: Draw an irrigation plan. That you have no experience in doing. No, I don’t know anything about an irrigation plan. And they asked me to basically increase the rice yield for them. And I would receive a death penalty as well if I didn't do it right. So actually, I told God since he spared my life—they took off my blindfold and they tied me around with the rope and they took it off and they made me draw it.

And I basically said, "God, thank you for sparing my life for a few minutes. I'm dead." Right, but it worked. Well, some invisible guy was basically grabbing ahold of my right hand and I couldn’t see it, but he was strong. So I just relaxed and started drawing something I had no idea what it was. It was on a paper, piece of paper, and I drew.

And it turned out to be an irrigation plan. And I showed it to the Khmer Rouge leader. I said, "Is this good enough, comrade?" He said, "Yes. Why don’t you oversee this? We’re going to bring 50,000 slaves to come, and you oversee the whole project." And it was still there today. That’s why all these—the Rocky Mountain News, CNN, BBC World, they went to see it, tried to prove me wrong. But it's still there.

Jim Daly: That’s a miracle. But if you asked me to do it again, I wouldn’t know. Yeah, I mean, that is a true miracle that the Lord answered your prayer to save your life.

Seetan Li: Save my life.

Jim Daly: So where in this did you escape from the camp? Is that right?

Seetan Li: Not during that time, but I did like a year later. How long were you in the camp and then when did you escape? 1979. This happened in '77. Right. So two years later. So you’re in this camp overseeing the irrigation project. Things are going, it sounds like, pretty well in a bad circumstance. People are being killed all around you. But they spare your life. So in '79, you escape. How do you escape and where do you go to?

Seetan Li: When I escaped, I was going toward the west, toward Thailand. I have no idea where I'm going and just going toward the west. Look at the sun where the sun set, that’s where you go. And try to—crawling most of the time. So I got a lot of scars on my chest, just crawling because you can't walk, made it visible, then you got killed. So I do that. It took a long trip to get to Thailand.

Jim Daly: How long? Do you recall?

Seetan Li: I'd say probably a month or so. About a month. Wow. But I got lost in the jungle. I don’t have anything to eat. I just—it was quite a journey. But until one day, I got into the middle of the jungle and I heard the soldiers coming. I didn’t care which soldiers. We don’t want to meet any soldiers. Right. What party, it doesn’t matter, because you don’t trust them anymore.

But in the meantime, there’s a ditch in front of me. There are a lot of dead people. There are a few still alive, screaming, moaning, but I wish I can help anybody, but I can barely help myself. I can barely walk because I didn’t have energy. I don’t have food. I didn’t have anything. Nevertheless, in the middle of all of that, there’s a guy who came out of the jungle.

He had long hair, looked like an animal. He just grabbed ahold of me and said, "Young man, do you know the Lord of the universe? His name is Jesus." It just knocked my head off. It was just like, "The Lord of the Universe? You said?" He said, "Yes, Jesus." I said, "Really?" "Do you want him? If one step forward, you and I may step on a landmine, it will blow off. I'm going to go to heaven. If you don’t have Jesus, you don’t go to heaven. You go to hell, like those people." So I said, "I want Jesus." That’s where I got Jesus. It's right in the middle of my critical moment making a decision where, which way I'm going to go. Because I heard the soldier coming. And at the same time, people were dying and there’s a landmine blow up everywhere. So I thought I'm going to go in that ditch.

Jim Daly: Seetan, let me ask you this question. For those that are listening, perhaps, that don’t have a relationship with Jesus. And here in the West, we’re so proud of our logic and the way we think of things, and we see ourselves as quite clever and bright. But they do say there’s no atheist in a foxhole. And you being in that jungle was the ultimate foxhole. In other words, you got danger on every side, so you were looking for a Savior. Which is what many military people in the middle of battle that don’t believe in God end up saying, "God, if you’re there, let me know." Right? And that was the frame of mind you were in.

So speak to that person who may never encounter the kind of cruelty and abuse that you had to encounter, yet you’re not bitter toward God, you’re calling out to God. Why?

Seetan Li: You know, it’s always since I'm growing up, it’s always that you can't compare yourself as human to God because God is God, human is human. Sometimes we as human thinking that God is created by another human being. That’s not—that’s impossible. It had to be the other way around. Is someone who is God, he’s the one who created everything. He’s the one who in charge of everything.

In my situation, first I believed that the idol in my home was my god. But when I saw the Khmer Rouge broke it in small pieces and killed my grandfather in front of me, so that was not really a true God. That was just an image that man made. It's all the product of man. Where I believe at that time, I begin to start believing that there must be someone greater and more powerful than this image that I worship. And that person, it cannot be comparable. It cannot be something I can see, can touch.

I believe God had to be more than just human nature. So even when I was in the middle of the jungle right there, the gunfire is coming, the soldier was walking toward me, and I'm trying to hide from them. And I know that invisible person. Because the reason I believe invisible person is because when they asked me to draw an irrigation plan, he was invisible, but he’s so strong. He got ahold of my right wrist to draw the irrigation.

That’s amazing. And he was there. If he’s not there, I won't be talking to you today. He was there to help me. And he was there to give me knowledge. I went to school to study medicine, but he taught me about irrigation and oversaw the job. And 20,000, Jim, it was not a small job. And I'm only like 16, 17 years old. Oh, it's amazing. And a city boy. I didn’t know anything about farming. And here I was able to manage that. If it's not for him, who is beyond our man ability, then I won't be alive.

Jim Daly: Seetan, let me ask you this question. I remember I was in China at one point and we were working on an office and we eventually established an office in China. And it did very well. I mean, family like I said, family’s universal, and it doesn’t matter the type of government that exists. Family, moms and dads want to have a healthy family, a good relationship and raise their kids. So we had good success introducing people to family themes in China.

I remember going to the airport. A young internal missionary couple took me to the airport. And what I mean by that, they were probably 30-ish and they were dropping me off at the airport. And they said, "Oh, Mr. Daly, we’ll be praying for you in America." And I turned and I said, "How do you pray for us?" And they looked at each other like, "Uh-oh, he asked that question." And he said something to me I'll never forget. He said, "Well, we pray for greater persecution because how we see America, the church, it feels weak to us."

And I went, "Whoa." And you know all the way home I'm saying, "Lord, don’t listen to that prayer." But that really is true. And here’s the connection scripturally that I wanted to get your thoughts on. You know that wonderful scripture in the Psalms where it says God is close to the brokenhearted and saves those crushed in spirit? You’re the poster child for that scripture. In the jungle, being crushed in spirit and every side suffering persecution. We didn’t even cover the fact that you were buried to your neck and tortured while they held you captive. Yet those were the things that gave you a heart and an openness to say yes to Jesus.

So is that part of the ingredient for us, that suffering leads us to Christ?

Seetan Li: Yes. You know, if people are not suffering, they don’t feel like they need God or any savior. But when you suffer, then you have a second thought. I even have my son, if—I hope he’s listening. Growing up as a Christian boy and have a father and a mother as a missionary to his own country, although he was born and raised here. Nevertheless, he wanted the father to be with him, help him, guide him every day, day in and day out and all that.

But when I came from Cambodia—you know, I was in prison many, many times—and I didn’t have a passport to come back. They took my passport and everything out. And there’s no US embassy in Cambodia at that time in the '90s. And so on and so forth. So I came home one time. I was coming home. My son, who was like 14 or 15, he was doing everything he knew how, using psychological language that he knew how.

"Daddy, you know, I know you do a good job. You bring a lot of kids to know Jesus and you train many pastors, many leaders." He said all the right things, and then I know where he’s going. He said, "You, they don’t need you anymore. You need to stay home." And I didn’t answer him. I had a hard time because I knew I was going to go back. I only came for one month. And then he somehow got into my room and found my return ticket. And he came out and screamed and cried and said, "I hate you. I don’t want you."

Well, first, before that, let me kind of rewind it. He asked me a day before, he said, "I want to be baptized. I don’t want any pastor to do it, I want you to do it for me." He’s all the good things. But then the next day, "I hate you," because he found my ticket going back. He felt abandoned. And then he said, "No, no, but I'm going to be baptized. No! I don’t want to have anything to do with God." Wow. It was like, all right.

So that, but then later, God reconciled. I went and I came back alive, and kind of pay back. Of course, you can never pay back. Try to do everything I know how to show love to my son. And more so that God loves him more than me. And he took care of him and all of that. But then he got graduated and didn’t have a job. And he said, "Dad, can you pray for me?" See, when you’re desperate, you want God.

Jim Daly: I was—and it’s a beautiful story. The thing I wanted to ask you about, though, this is true in Asia and in the West, because I’ve met Christian leaders in all phases around the globe. This is a common problem that we have is that, you know, this is God’s call for you to be reaching people in Cambodia, which requires travel.

I’ve had a Christian leader from Asia tell me, "I think it’s right to sacrifice my family for my ministry." That’s a big statement. I think the opposite. Your ministry starts with your family, and God will use the rest for you to reach your calling, right? But if you fail at home, you fail all around. I don’t care if you’re a pastor, a ministry leader, an evangelist like you. I think we need to be mindful of what destruction we’re doing at home if we’re ignoring our primary responsibility of as a good husband or a good father. How’s your relationship today with Seetan?

Seetan Li: Oh, it’s awesome. Awesome. It’s really incredible. But I say, you know, when you ask a question, I said, you know, do we have to go through suffering and persecution in order to find God? It’s sad to say yes. Because it's for me, I was growing up with a loving family. If I hadn't gone through the killing fields, I probably would have no desire to—I may believe in God, but I don’t have a desire to have him in my life all the time.

Jim Daly: That is such a big statement, though. And I had a Christian leader in the US—I shared that story about the comment from the missionary couple in China. And he said to me on the stage, "That’s hogwash theology." And we were in front of about 1,500 people. And they started—I didn’t know all of them—but people that knew me in the audience started texting me on stage saying, "Thank you for saying that. More Christians need to recognize that suffering is a part of spiritual growth."

But he was referring to it as hogwash theology. I was like, wow. Because I think at the core, we do want to avoid suffering. We want comfort. The West is full of comfort. That’s what we seek. That is our god, in a big way. That’s what our idol is. And yet Jesus is saying, "That’s not my way. You’re going to suffer like I suffered."

Seetan Li: Well, you know, Jesus didn’t make a mistake when he said to you, "Love me, carry the cross and follow me." And that’s not the cross that I wear. That’s not a beautiful cross or the cross probably in this building, very nice, smooth, and carving. That’s—he didn’t talk about that cross. He’s talking about a tree, a whole tree that you cut it, and it can be a thorn in there. It can be anything. And you had to carry that cross to kill yourself. That’s what—how they crucified him. He carried his own cross. And it was like, that involves suffering.

Jim Daly: Yeah. And few people are going to go through the experiences that you went through and your fellow countrymen in Cambodia. It was an experience that was unreal for a human being to go through that kind of suffering. I want to get back to the story. I think, you know, lifting up the Lord at this moment was the right thing to do. But you’re bellying out toward Thailand. You get there after about a month, you said, right? You got to a refugee camp. What happened after that?

Seetan Li: When I got to the refugee camp, I found this guy I recognized, that long-haired guy, like a jungle man. But he looked a little—a lot better. He got his hair cut. And yeah, he looked pretty ugly. I thought I looked better than him, but no, there was no mirror to look, and we didn’t have a shampoo or soap for four years. But what an amazing thing he did for you, sharing the gospel.

And you know what he said to me, Jim? I think I wanted to spank him at that day. He said, "I want you to go preach the gospel." I said, "Preach the gospel? What?" Because that’s all I know: "Jesus saves" when he told me in the jungle. He said, "Jesus saves. He’s the only name that can save you." I said, "What? But what do you want me to do?" He said, "You go tell people."

And I was like, "No." He said, "It's a critical moment, Seetan. You know, we can all—the Thai can send you back to the border." And he heard the news that the Thai had sent 30,000, 40,000 refugees back to the border, stepped on landmines and got killed at that time. And he said, "We may end up being there. And these people, there are a lot of refugees, there were like 50,000, 60,000 of them. We all escaped the killing field." He said, "It's critical. We need to go preach the gospel."

This man didn’t even know me long enough, then he just told me to go preach the gospel. I said, "What do I preach with? I don’t know what to tell them." This sounds like a first-century thing. And he said, "All you need to do is tell them 'Jesus saves.'" See, by that time I never seen the Bible. I never—don’t have any gospel tract, nothing. No four spiritual laws, nothing. And he said, "Go." And I was mad at him. I was like, "You’re crazy."

And then he said, "No, go tell people 'Jesus saves.'" I said, "If they nod their head, agree, what do you want me to do? Lead them to cry?" I said, "How do I lead them to cry?" And he said, "Okay, you just parade them to me. I'll lead them to cry." So the first day I lead 25 people to the Lord. They said yes. You know what, Jim? If one person out of those 25 asked me, "Explain a little bit about Jesus to me," I had no idea. Because all I know is Jesus saved. But I think the Holy Spirit just did—not I think, I know it. He did all the job.

I said, "You want to be saved?" I saw somebody on the street. "You want to be saved, Uncle?" "Yes." "Jesus saves. How about you, Grandma? You want to be saved?" "Yes." "Jesus saves." So that’s all. It’s kind of simple. That’s my message. "Do you want to be saved? Jesus saves." That’s all.

Jim Daly: And you did. You told me you have a radio program in Cambodia and today you did it live. You do a Q&A. You start like at 5:00 to get prep and the program goes and 109 people came to Christ today.

Seetan Li: Yesterday was 67. So over 200 in two days.

Jim Daly: So it’s happening. The Lord’s using you. He’s kind of obviously matured your approach from the early days. But man, that’s an amazing harvest as Jesus said, "The fields are white unto harvest." Sometimes I think we in the West can overcomplicate it. And we feel like we have to do it rather than just be faithful. Just go talk to somebody. "Do you want to be saved?" That’s a great question. Who doesn’t? Hopefully, we can find those people.

Let me continue with the story. There was a really extraordinary moment where you encountered the guard responsible for shooting your friend when this all started. How did that come about and what happened?

Seetan Li: Well, I was preaching. I had become like an instant preacher after that day that guy I was reunited with. So I let so many people to the Lord every day. And then he recited scripture. He didn’t even have the Bible, recited it, and I wrote it down and used that scripture to preach. So I let so many. And he said, "It's your responsibility. You let them to the Lord, you disciple them."

So that’s what I discipling with the piece of paper that I have. No Bible, never seen one. And because of that, one day—I have so many churches that I meet, every meeting I have anywhere from 100 to 200 people. These were all new believers, including myself. And then I teach the same thing I got from him, one scripture verse a day.

The first one came to me was Galatians chapter 5 verse 1. I'll never forget that. "It is for freedom that Christ come and set us free." And that was like, man, I was in being a slave for five years. And he’s willing to die for me. Actually, it took me about a week to accept that scripture. I was fighting with my pastor.

Jim Daly: Why was that? What was hard for you?

Seetan Li: It’s very hard because I said, "Pastor, you crazy. I didn’t have soap. I didn’t have shampoo." I'm talking about physical things. I didn’t have toothbrush, toothpaste. So I'm stinking. And I have one set of clothes for five years. I'm stinking. How can a God of heaven who is so perfect willing to come down just to die for me to set me free? I'm not worth of anything. I'm not worth anything that God Almighty to do that for me.

Jim Daly: And I smell horrible.

Seetan Li: I smell bad. And I would cry and I would fight. After a week, I go to him every day. I said, "I want to smash you on a face. I don’t like what you’re telling me. You must have quoted it wrong." I didn’t believe because he didn’t have a Bible to prove. He just recited. So finally, the last day—six, seven days later—I went and he just wept. He didn’t say anything. He tried not to and he just cried and prayed. And then the Holy Spirit just overwhelmed me and to accept that. I say, "Oh, Lord, I accept it. I'm worth more than what I thought."

Jim Daly: I think many of us struggle with that idea that he cares for us, that he loves us. That’s probably the biggest challenge a human being has: to feel lovable.

Seetan Li: So from that time onward, leading to what you asking question, I was boosted up like drinking an energy drink. I was like boosted up. And then I just take it serious and I go. And I just—I want the whole world to get saved. Every day I open my mouth, I want the whole world to get saved and believe in Jesus. That sounds like the heart of God.

And then that’s why I got all these people. And one day when I was preaching the 6:00 morning, which is not many men in that group because men like to sleep in. Just universal. Whether you’re a refugee or you’re American, I don’t care. Or living in Denver. Anyway, live on a street, even a beggar, they like to sleep in. But women like to get up.

So the first session I have about 200 women, some men, not a lot. And I was preaching from Romans chapter 8. And that was really a very sensitive message I just got from my pastor. "Who can separate us from the love of God? Can persecution? Can anything? No, in all things." When I said, "Who can separate us from the love of God? Can persecution?"—when I come to the word "persecution," I saw the women sitting there. This is a girl who buried me alive. This is a girl who killed many of my comrades. This is a girl who killed my father. She was sitting in the church.

So I can't even say the word "persecution." I was trembling. And then my flesh was telling me, "Seetan, this is your chance. Your opportunity, Seetan. Forget about God. Go get rid of her." So I hear that very loud and clear in my brain. Vengeance. Go get it. And I was ready to do it. I said, "You’re right. I agree with you." So I threw my Bible, the first Bible I have, I throw it on the ground. And when I do that, then I hear the voice come to me, "Seetan, you’re in trouble." And that’s too powerful for me to comprehend.

And that voice changed my entire life. And then I was full of fear of God, fear of that voice, and also I somehow he’s supernaturally changed from taking revenge, from going and taking care of that lady, get her life off. But rather, there’s spirit of love, spirit of compassion, spirit of forgiveness in my—just switch the anger and bitterness and everything switched with love, compassion, and forgiveness. So I walked toward her, trembling, kneeled down, and she was shocked. She saw she was a dead meat. She knew who I was, and nobody, the rest of them, they didn’t know what was going on. So I said, "My dear sister, God has forgiven me, therefore he asks me to forgive you."

Jim Daly: Wow. And it was from God. And at the moment I said that, I mean, my chest was kind of released. The bitterness was gone and the anger was gone, but I was set free. Actually, the first that got benefit from that was me, not her.

Jim Daly: Seetan, let me ask you this because there’s so many people with all different kinds of circumstances that struggle holding on to that bitterness, even though they may profess Christ. But when you talk about their bad relationship with their father, these are the ones—unlike your son and you—that it never was reconciled. And they come—I’ll speak—and they’ll come and stand in a line, men who are 40, 50, 60 years old and say to me, "How could you forgive your father? I’ve never been able to forgive my father for what he did to our family." That practical question is a hard one to answer, other than to say you’ve got to let it go, you’ve got to forgive them. But some people, many people, struggle doing that. Have you been able to find a good word for them?

Seetan Li: Well, all the good word is from the Bible. In Romans, God basically speak very clearly through the Apostle Paul: "Revenge is on me, I’ll take care of it." So he took care of it on the cross already. Everything else, it doesn’t mean that he have to do it all over again, it's all done, all at once for all. But he’s still reminding us through the Apostle Paul: "It's on me." Just like I take you to lunch and I said, "Okay, Jim, eat whatever you want, it's on me." Although I probably tell you, "Order the cheapest one," but Jesus didn't say that. "You eat whatever you want. The revenge, I take care of it."

Jim Daly: But there’s still that mechanism that so many people struggle with. They may know that in their head, but they can't translate that to their heart.

Seetan Li: I believe in my own experience—I'm not going to talk about someone else, but I'm talking about my own experience. Just in that moment I was telling you that God can transform your life in such a way where you can be—it’s beyond your imagination. But you have to choose the way of God. That’s the distinction.

Jeremiah 29:11, it gives us what I call a plan for our life. God said, "I know the plan I have for you," declares the Lord, "the plan to prosper you, not to harm you, the plan to give you hope and future." And how many people on earth that don’t want to be in that plan? I think they have to be dumb not to receive that plan. Because the plan to prosper you, not to harm you, the plan to give you hope and future. Everybody wants one. But they want it their way. So if you want that, you have to live within His way.

So in New Testament he says, "In Christ." In Christ, so then if you’re in Christ, that means you submitted to him. And when you submitted to him, the plan will fulfill your life.

Jim Daly: Well, and that’s the hard truth of it. If you’re not experiencing that release, probably you’re not submitted to him. If I could be that bold. There’s something preventing you from that full commitment. And that’s what you’ve got to look at.

Seetan Li: That’s why I believe that the 250 or 60 people yesterday and today come to the Lord because I focus on that. I say, "God is giving us a big plan, and He knew exactly what to do with us. All we need to do is just trust Him for that." And you live within the framework. There’s nothing free, I mean, there’s no free meal. So God had done everything for you and for me, and all he requires is to trust in him, to live within his framework, and everything will go according to the plan that he have. Jeremiah is telling us something that all men want to have.

Jim Daly: It’s so true, but you have to choose. He stands at the door and knocks. He doesn’t break the door down. And you’ve got to choose him, and that’s the distinction. And that’s quite, you know, loving and kind to give us that choice. Choose this day, life or death.

Seetan Li: Yeah, I know it's hard living in life and family and all that, but if you experience something like I experienced, it's not hard at all to trust God.

Jim Daly: Well, what’s so amazing with your story is it's so vibrant. I mean, the Lord—a guy comes out of the jungle and says you need to be saved. That doesn’t happen to a lot of people in your circumstances. In fact, you had a situation with, I think, 300 asylum seekers that were denied by the US government. You stuck your finger in the Bible and opened it to Mark and took it as a word from the Lord. What was the word?

Seetan Li: Well, it's basically in Mark chapter 16, verse 15 and on. It says, "Go out to the world and preach the gospel, and to baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, and there will be signs come after. And among those that you will speak in a new language." It's in my Cambodian translation. It's a Gideon Bible that I have, New Testament. It says, "You will speak a new language."

And then of course, at that time, these people were getting in trouble. They don’t know where to turn to. They came to me, "Young Teacher," that’s my nickname, "Young Teacher, can you help us? Because they’re going to send us to the Thai border and throw us into the landmines and we don’t want to die." And can you help us? And of course, the only way we can help is if I know English and talk to the US immigration officer about all of this in Thailand.

And they are the one who processed the refugee resettlement program and everything out. But then they have their own translator who is anti-Christian. And they come from America, Cambodian but they live in America and they’re Buddhist. And they say, "Well, a Cambodian has to be Buddhist." You know in any form of registration in America, you always say "religious preference." In any form. You apply for job, even you apply for refugee resettlement, they still have that form. Your name, your last name, your first name, date of birth and so on and so forth, religious preference.

So those people put "Christian." The 300-plus people put "Christian," and because of that, the cases went into the interpreter first. And the interpreter, as soon as they saw those that said "Christian," they put "null" on their application with the red ink. That means the immigration’s not going to see it.

Jim Daly: Wow, and how did you correct that? Or how did the Lord use you to correct that?

Seetan Li: Well, I don’t have the answer when they come to me for help. I had no clue. I said, "But I have someone to answer to us and that’s God. And it's in the Bible." And I don’t even know which chapter to work for because I'm brand new to the Bible. So I put my hand on that and brought me to Mark chapter 16. And it's talking about if you being baptized, if you saved basically in general, then you will, you know, there’s poison snakes and stuff like that, it's not going to bother you.

But the most part, I'm not interested about poison snakes or anything. But I'm interested in a new language there. I say, "I need to speak English or somebody among our congregation needs to speak English and protest against the US ambassador or US immigration officer." And they volunteer me. And I say, "How about someone else?" "No, it's you."

So that’s how we do. And I instruct them to pray. I say, "Pray until you hear me speak that crazy language." Because English is one of the most difficult languages on earth, because you spell one way, you say it the other way around. It’s not like French. So I do know French, but I don’t know English. So anyway, long story short, so people volunteer me and I instruct them.

And they said, "Well, the curfew at 8:00, Thai soldiers will not let us meet." I said, "Are you afraid of Thai soldiers or are you afraid of the Khmer Rouge? If they send you back, you’re going to die anyway." I said, "So why don’t we just trust God for it?" And we pray all night and the Thai soldier come and tell us to dismiss the meeting. We don’t. I said, "Don’t open the eye, keep close your eye, keep pray."

So they fire guns to the air. We’re not breaking up. And then we keep praying until I feel the sun come out. This is all day, all night long. And 300, 400 people pray. Thai, I think Thai soldiers got tired. They go take a nap. So they leave us alone. So we pray and I feel the big feet right in front of me. I feel it.

And it was getting hot. You know, it's not cold like here, it's hot over there. And it Cap—the sun kept coming out and started hot and I feel it. And I open my eye and somebody had big feet. It was a British missionary named Andrew Way. And Andrew was a huge guy. He’s a big guy. And I met him before, but I always escape from him because I don’t speak his language. He speak very little Khmer.

But I don’t speak any of his language and I try to avoid speaking anybody who speaks English because I'm embarrassed. I can't understand them. Not that I hate them, I just don’t understand. I don’t know how to communicate. But at this time he stood there and he said, "Hello, Seetan," and I talk English back to him.

And we carry on conversation and I start standing up, he pulled me up. And he’s a tall guy and I'm a short guy and we start talking. And then he have a good news Bible—I still own one—the Good News translation. He said, "I have a brand new Bible. You want to have it? But Seetan, you failed me all of these months. You always escaped from me. And you speak pretty good English. Why you do that?" I said, "I speak English?"

Jim Daly: You didn’t even know you were speaking it?

Seetan Li: No. So I carried on conversation and I was able to speak just like I do now. And thank God my wife had to go through ABC to learn, where I don’t. So that’s supernaturally given to me.

Jim Daly: That’s amazing. And in what did you do in the petitioning? You were able to get those asylum seekers—

Seetan Li: I went to the embassy. I went to a representative, they come to the camp every day. So I went to the official and I talked to one official from the US embassy. He speaks French and English. And I feel comfortable if my English is not going well, I will switch, but I didn’t have to talk French, so I talk English to him.

And he was, "Why you speak perfect English?" I said, "Really?" And then I reported to him about the case. And he said, "Well, let me see what I can do with the immigration officer. I'm not in immigration, but our volunteer..." So he talked to the immigration officer. So he took me to Bangkok, to the capital of Thailand—and we were in Thailand—and I met with the immigration officer with a lot of tattoos.

And I told him with passion—I was crying—I said, "You know, I don’t want to see my people die. And why America is—it's a big country. Why America is against Christianity?" He said, "Huh? Why you say that?" I said, "My people, 300-plus people, are being denied the case because they put in their application as Christian." "I didn’t know that. Who did that?" I said, "Your staff, your interpreter."

So he recalled all of them. Those guys got approved and got to come to America way ahead of me.

Jim Daly: That’s great. I mean, that’s the ending of the story I wanted to hear.

Seetan Li: It was like, yeah, it’s amazing.

Jim Daly: 1989, you and your wife go back to Cambodia.

Seetan Li: Yeah, we didn't make it. They not opened. So we went in 1990 again.

Jim Daly: So 1990 you get in. But you wanted to meet with—it ended up being the president of the Khmer Rouge, correct?

Seetan Li: Well, I went back, basically we’ve been under house arrest for three months because they’re not—we were the first ones coming back.

Jim Daly: So when you went back, they put you under house arrest? Boy, that had to be dangerous.

Seetan Li: Yeah, because under former Soviet Union at the time, so they don’t trust us. And I’ve been labeled as American CIA and so on and so forth. But nevertheless, I was able to lead so many to the Lord while I was in possession. And anyway, long story short, later I moved back to Cambodia. My wife coming back to the US and stayed with our two children, raised them. So she did by herself and I was there and continue to establish a ministry. I started a Bible college and so on and so forth, underground, above ground.

And then there’s opportunity arrive. And I sense that the Lord wanted me to go and reconcile the Khmer Rouge.

Jim Daly: Now, they’re in hiding, correct?

Seetan Li: Yeah, they’re in the jungle and along the Thai border. So I went and meet with the political leader first. I have all the pictures to prove. To meet with the political leader and they said, well, they’re not in charge anymore. They don’t have any power, but the military one on the other side of the country.

The former general. The guy who’s a militant who takes care of that 35,000-strong army, committed. But they say, well, we’ll do, but you take your own risk. See, I talked to the president, Mr. Khieu Samphan. He’s still alive. He’s almost 100 now. He’s the only one that’s still alive, the rest died. But I met a few others. But he was the one who I talked to and he said, "You know, I can arrange for you to meet with him, but those guys are very cruel. If they like you, you come back alive. If they don’t, you’re dead." "You still want to do it?" I said, "Yes."

And so I went and arranged. And it was a long story short, I was able to meet him. Get there on a motorcycle escorted by two Khmer Rouge soldiers and yeah, I don’t even know I come back. And I didn’t tell my wife. I didn’t tell my family. My mom and dad were still alive. I didn’t tell them because they won't let me go.

But I did. And so long story short, I let the general to the Lord, his wife and the two children. And then reconcile the civil war. He was the only one that left. There’s some other military leader of the Khmer Rouge who already kind of dissolved themselves and join with the government, surrender. This guy, no. He said, "No." He’s not educated, but he’s—he’s a militant. It’s General Tet.

So it was on BBC World did the article about him because of me doing that. And the Rocky Mountain News, I think they do some. Anyway, I let him to the Lord and the country come to an end, the civil war come to an end because of him. Because he was the last militant.

Jim Daly: So he laid his arms down after coming to Christ.

Seetan Li: Yeah, and then he still wanted to fight the war. You know what, I gave him the new weapon, this one. I said, "This weapon you didn’t need a tractor or anything to carry, just you." Scripture. He said, "What do I do with this?" I said, "This is more powerful than your missile or your gun or anything like that." So anyway, he became an elder of our church. He just passed away, as a matter of fact. He just passed away.

Jim Daly: But he became an elder of your church?

Seetan Li: Yeah, he became an elder of our church.

Jim Daly: That’s extraordinary. You also have helped many orphans in the jungles of Cambodia. What have you done?

Seetan Li: Well, this is the offspring of the Khmer Rouge soldier. Their parents died of the war. So they live all over in the jungle and General Tet introduced me to them. I told him I have nothing to do with this. My plan was to come and lead you to Christ and reconcile the differences. I don’t have room for anything else. But I was fighting with God for three days and three nights and I got malaria. So that, I have to pay the big price. I still have malaria.

Yeah, I had to pay the big price. It was in the jungle. I don’t want to do it. General Tet said, "You need to take care of them." In 78 of them. And these children are naked and stuff, their parents died. They’re just in the jungle. And the general believed that he is responsible to take care of them, but he doesn’t have anything to do with it. So he thinks I can do it.

So I end up being—you know, God just like supernaturally—there are no TV, no big screen in the middle of the jungle. No electricity. Right. And it come like a big screen coming down: James 1:27. You know where it goes. If you think you’re a religious people, go visit the widow and the orphan. Go to ask them how they’re doing.

And that was coming. I said, "Take it off! I don’t want it!" And I got bit by mosquito and—and it come back again all night long. I can't sleep. That thing coming like I'm in a big church, megachurch that have that screen. James 1:27. And then I said, "Lord, I surrender. You’re bigger than me. But you have to help me. I don’t have any resources. I don’t have any mean. I don’t have any manpower. Nobody’s going to come here to work."

So I become a caretaker for those 78 kids for almost a year by myself. There’s one baby that needs nursing. So I have to walk like three hours to the village to other Khmer Rouge lady who nursing their baby. So we ask them, "Please help my baby." And they have a little bit of milk. And then the rest I just boil the rice with water and just take the water and put in her mouth. She grows up now, but no teeth because—how old is she now? She’s right now about 24, 25 years old.

Anyway, she’s not with us anymore, she’s married and stuff, but she have no teeth. But that was the baby, but everyone else, you know, they bigger, they five, ten years old, fifteen.

Jim Daly: Seetan, it's just amazing what the Lord has done with your life when you look at it. The way that he reached out at just the right moment to make sure you survived and that you were able to get clear instruction about what to do, preaching the gospel, whatever it might be. When you look at the church today—we have a lot of head knowledge. We have so many resources available to us with our smartphones and Bibles and Greek interlinears and, you know, all the stuff that we have. We can gain great head knowledge about what it means to be a Christian. The challenge for us, I believe, in the church is how do we deploy that? How do we become action-oriented to show the gospel to people? And you’re doing it. What would you say to the churches around the world, not just the West, but where we’ve kind of concealed it now just to an idea? "Here’s a thought about Christ."

Seetan Li: You know, I even say this to Jim Singleton, Dr. Jim Singleton who came with me this morning, we shared a room this morning. And I said, "Jim, I, you know, after this 109 people come to the Lord this morning..." I forgot what Jim said, but anyway, whatever he said, I said back to him. I said, "You know, because every day when I come on the air or every day when I come in front of people telling them about Jesus, I have a thought in my mind: This is my last chance. My last day that I preach. That will be my last sermon. My last good news in the gospel that I have to share."

So every day is my last chance. Good way to look at it. So then I will give the very best. And I recommend and say that. And I say this is not—it's not a religious thing. It's real in my life. Every morning, because I told—he asked me, Jim, we never share a room together. This is the first time. And he said, "What time you waking up?" I said, "Typically my radio I have to prep from 5:00 and 6:00, I would start. But I usually get up at 3:00." And I did. You’re not a good roommate, you know.

No, I got up at 3:00 and then I couldn’t stay because I feel anxious that this is my last day to preach. This is my last day I'm going to tell—I have opportunity to tell anyone about Jesus. So when you do that, you give your best. And when you give your best, you don’t have to be a preacher. You don’t have to be a pastor. You don’t have to be an evangelist or anything. You can just be someone who loves Jesus, someone who’s saved by the blood of Christ. So anybody, you’re a housewife, you’re a father, you’re a mother, you’re a factory worker or office manager or security guard. It doesn’t matter. Just keep in your mind that this is your last day, your last chance, and your only opportunity to share Christ. If you do that, that will be the best.

Jim Daly: Yeah, Seetan, this is great. And that’s a life well lived. Thank you so much for being with us. This has been really good.

Seetan Li: Thank you, Jim. Thank you so much. This is incredible. It's an honor. Thank you.

Guest (Male): Well, that’s an amazing journey from Seetan Li, from the killing fields of Cambodia to decades of ministry, sharing the hope of the gospel of Christ with others. It's almost impossible to comprehend what he and his family have endured, and yet it's a clear testament of God’s power to redeem a very dark chapter in Seetan’s life. In His sovereignty, God rescued and transformed him and took injustice and turned it into forgiveness. What men meant for evil, God used for good. And now, countless lives have been impacted for Christ through Seetan’s life and testimony.

Here’s what you need to know: It was his integrity and consistent living witness for Christ that opened the doors with officials in Cambodia, not only to share with former military leaders, but also to have access to share the gospel on radio and TV in Cambodia to millions of people. Only God could do that. And that’s one of our key themes on ReFOCUS: How we live as Christians has a lasting impact on those who don’t yet know the Lord, yet their hearts are beginning to open up to him. So that’s the big takeaway for this conversation.

I hope this discussion has inspired you to be an overcomer in whatever difficult situation you might face. And I also hope it will embolden you to share Christ with grace and truth and without fear, trusting that God will go before you and accomplish those things He wishes to accomplish. I’ve been reminded through this story that all things are possible with God. So if you feel like you’re in an impossible situation, move forward in the confidence that His grace is more than sufficient.

All right, for the Inbox segment today, here’s a comment Christina wrote to us after she heard the podcast with Aaron Renn, a conversation on evangelism. She said: "Hi, I have been listening to Focus on the Family for many years. I'm so glad you’re doing this new podcast. At times, the Holy Spirit encourages me to say to a clerk or a grocery worker, 'God told me to let you know that Jesus loves you very much.' And then I say I'm going to pray for them and their family. I pray for them right away as I leave and ask God to show them His grace and glory by doing something good for them or a family member. I did this recently with a clerk at Walmart, and he put his face in his hands multiple times with a huge smile on his face and said, 'You’re the second person who’s said that to me today. I’ve been praying for God to tell me if He loves me.' It was amazing. Usually, people are polite and sometimes grateful. It's a way of journeying with the Holy Spirit in a stranger’s life."

Well, way to go! I mean, that’s something you could do every time you check out at a store or whatever. And what a wonderful way to remind people that God sees them, cares about them, and most importantly, loves them. Thanks for the comment, Christina. And since I shared it here on the podcast, I want to send you a copy of my book, ReFOCUS: Living a Life that Reflects God’s Heart, and you’re certainly doing just that.

Now, if you have a question or comment for me, please send me a voicemail or leave a comment in the contact form. Let me know what you thought about this conversation with Seetan Li. The links are there in the show notes. If you’re benefiting from these podcast discussions, would you consider supporting our efforts and helping us to bring you more of this great content? We’re listener-supported, so your gifts are what allow us to keep on going. Thank you so much for showing your appreciation by making a donation today to this ministry. The link is provided for you.

Thanks for listening again to ReFOCUS with Jim Daly. Be sure to like, listen, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Next time on ReFOCUS, J.R. Briggs will offer helpful advice on asking better questions to engage people with God’s grace and truth in conversations.

Guest (Female): And I think that’s really important as we think about how do we meet people where they are and journey with them to where God wants them to be. Part of figuring out and meeting them where they are is saying, "What questions are you currently asking?"

Guest (Male): That’s coming up on Monday, June 29th, on the next ReFOCUS with Jim Daly.

Guest (Female): Pastors, if you are struggling to help couples in your church whose marriage is in trouble, we can help. Marriage 911 by Focus on the Family trains laypeople to mentor married couples. Each kit includes two training guides, four workbooks, and all the training necessary to meet with couples who need help. Go to Marriage911.com. That is Marriage, the numbers 9-1-1, .com.