ReFOCUS with Jim Daly

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Granger Smith: So, what if we looked at every person like that as a captive slave that needed to hear the truth to be freed? And this is also why a recalibration of the Bible constantly, daily. I wouldn't dare go a day without an intake of the word, because I'm not strong enough.

Jim Daly: That's Granger Smith. He's a former country music star, and you're going to hear later about how he became convicted to stop pursuing the approval of people and start pursuing God's approval. Welcome to Refocus with Jim Daly, a podcast production of Focus on the Family. I talked with Granger about his faith journey and about fearing the Lord. His story is moving, and he has some great insights into representing Christ right where you're at. And the goal of this podcast is to inspire and equip you to engage those around you with the love of Christ, even when it's uncomfortable, maybe especially when it's uncomfortable. And today's episode has some key insights into how to do that, and how to begin by strengthening your own faith first. After a 24-year career as an award-winning country music artist, Granger stepped away to dedicate his life to ministry a few years ago. He's a bestselling author and speaker, and we discuss some of the thoughts he shared in his new book, Poison in the Well, 11 toxic beliefs that kept me from the living water of Jesus. So here's that conversation with Granger Smith on Refocus with Jim Daly.

Jim Daly: Granger, thanks for joining me on Refocus. It's great to have you.

Granger Smith: It's such an honor to be here. Thank you.

Jim Daly: Let me ask you first, so the whole music thing, how long have you been playing music?

Granger Smith: Uh, playing music, um, 32 years.

Jim Daly: And how old were you when you picked that up?

Granger Smith: 14.

Jim Daly: That's amazing. I I'm in awe of musicians and that talent. It's just something I do not possess. I I'm tone deaf, cannot sing, but I love music.

Granger Smith: I just I loved it from an early age.

Jim Daly: You want to work with me? I'll give you ten bucks for a voice lesson.

Granger Smith: You know what's so interesting about this is that that desire and we could make a theological argument with this as well, but that desire to play music, it it needs to start with a with a want to. Otherwise it just doesn't happen.

Jim Daly: You were raised in a Christian home, which is cool, that's great, but your faith wasn't as strong as now looking back, perhaps you thought it should be. What was going on and describe that spiritual development that you were lacking. Not to throw your mom and dad under the bus, of course.

Granger Smith: Well, um, you know, this this book, let me just say, because the the first acknowledgment says to my mom.

Jim Daly: Right.

Granger Smith: You and dad gave me love, care, and a home where the name of Jesus was known. If I missed him for many years, that wasn't your failure, it was my own blindness. Thank you for never stopping your prayers.

Jim Daly: Oh, you are the favorite son, your mom is saying.

Granger Smith: Well, I I I did, to your point, I did I do have to say that my parents didn't fail in that area. We we grew up in a faithful home.

Jim Daly: But they may have worn it as failure, not seeing you make good decisions, and you know, I'm I'm don't know your whole story, but I'm sure, you know, you did things as a teen and a 20-something that probably were not right. Most of us do.

Granger Smith: Sure.

Jim Daly: What was that like and what were you sensing was lacking? And when did that thought hit you like it's got to be deeper?

Granger Smith: Well, my my story as I look back, it's very difficult to look back on one's life and kind of reverse engineer your faith to see what what went wrong or where what's what was the the problem here. I have concluded with my story that I actually was unconverted. I was not saved.

Jim Daly: Huh.

Granger Smith: Although I uh, would say the prayer and and got baptized at 12 years old, um, although I professed Christ, and I think it's fair to say, I always believed in Jesus. And I could always articulate the gospel. But there's a difference between a head knowledge and and a heart possession of Christ. And so I believe in my story, as I've looked back, that I I wasn't saved. It wasn't a story that you sometimes hear of a long season of wondering. Instead, as I've now understand a better view of conversion, as Jesus talks about in John 3 to Nicodemus, you must be born again. And Paul says there's a moment, you know, that you were blind and now you see and and you were old and now you're made new. If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old is past, the new has come. So, as I come to understand that, I see it wasn't a bad faith or a weak faith, or it was a no faith. It was a dead faith.

Jim Daly: But you could parrot things and

Granger Smith: could parrot. I I never lived a life that was morally off the rails. You you wouldn't have ever looked at me and said, that guy just needs Jesus, you know. You wouldn't have thought that because I was living in a moral society with faithful parents and professing Jesus.

Jim Daly: You know, it's impossible to put a percentage on this, but I think that's true of many. I don't know the number, but many young people growing up in Christian homes today. You know, my wife and I, we could just talk about our own experience. We came to Christ in Christless homes. So we're like first-generation believers. There is that point, that demarcation. I know exactly when it happened. I was 15 at a Fellowship of Christian Athletes camp, and I was challenged about putting my trust in Christ. I went forward sobbing and, you know, it happened. To your point, there is a distinct moment where I said yes to the Lord. I still bobbled along. I was young, 15, but always with a sense of you could do better. You know, this is not who you are. Almost audibly, like this isn't who you are now. And that's that's a difference, right? Rather than just. But how many when you're out there? I mean, concerts that you have done and young people by the thousands there listening to you. Many of them may think they're in Christ, but they may not be.

Granger Smith: Yes, I think it's a far greater number than we could possibly imagine from what I've seen. And I believe you'd probably say the same thing. As as we look out and the faith that is uh, genuine with the parents, often times becomes assumed by the kids. And then the pattern is rejected by the grandkids.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Granger Smith: And then the pattern restarts as the rejected grandkids have kids, they look and they say, there's something, there's got to be something more in this world.

Jim Daly: Right.

Granger Smith: There's got to be more than this. There has to be a purpose. There has to be something. And then they go to Fellowship of Christian Athletes event like you did, and they hear the gospel and they believe.

Jim Daly: Right.

Granger Smith: And that's kind of the cycle and we don't like that cycle. We want every generation to believe. And so how do we now as Christian parents that are raising kids in the faith, how do we let them know that it it is a personal relationship with Christ you must have? You cannot assume my faith. You cannot assume your grandmother's faith. But but it it is it's rampant, especially in America.

Jim Daly: And you know what's hard too for the parents. It's the ability to kind of allow the Lord to work deeply in your child's heart. And it might I remember Alister Begg, Cleveland, Ohio, the Scottish pastor, Alister Begg. But he said that great scripture, you know, that he's close to the brokenhearted and saves those crushed in spirit. And Alister just said to the parents specifically, are you willing? Are you willing to let your kids be crushed? If that's what it's going to take to get them into the kingdom. And we have the right answer. We say, of course. But in the back of our minds we're going, I hope not. Because that's hard. It's hard for parents.

Granger Smith: So this is such a great topic and and I think part of this has to do with us resisting the urge to push our kids to make a decision too early.

Jim Daly: I agree.

Granger Smith: Because I I was hiking with my 12-year-old son this week in the mountains. And we would look at God's beauty and and and we would talk about his character. We would talk about Christ and and what he came to do and the gospel. And it would be so easy for me in that moment with my 12-year-old son to say, okay, so do you choose heaven or hell?

Jim Daly: Right.

Granger Smith: Which one is it? Heaven, daddy. Then repeat after me and let's say this prayer right here and now in the mountains. And now you're saved. Congratulations, you know, welcome to the kingdom. It's tempting to do that. But to your point and to Alister's point, we need to be willing to walk that out so that they make that decision out of their own heart. There's an interesting story about Charles Spurgeon when he was grown up. And his mother would pray at the dinner table and say, Lord, draw these kids to yourself. Make them know their need, their sin and their need for Christ and his atoning work on the cross. And God, I have told them this so many times that they don't come to you, then the blood is not on my hands. And the kids would look at each other like, what is she talking about me? What does that mean? Eventually uh, Spurgeon came to the Lord through one of those prayers. He said I'm I'm hearing I'm hearing my mother. Lord, I I need you.

Jim Daly: Right. That's so straightforward, right? Yes. Listen, Granger, we talk about calamity and difficulty and being crushed. You had the loss of your your child. Describe what happened. How long had you been married? How old was your child? Just give us the circumstances of that and then let's talk about the recovery.

Granger Smith: Yeah, um, we were married, my wife and I, uh, see that it was about about 10 years. We were married, three kids. Career was doing great. We were um, we were living a a life that we had dreamed of. We were happy. My testimony is not a story of laying on the streets of Portland, Oregon, you know, with with a needle in my arm needing Jesus, that's just not my testimony. We were happy. We didn't have a a missing piece in our hearts or anything like that. Which is an interesting it's an interesting way for the Lord to to break me. Probably the biggest part of my testimony is that I always believed I was a Christian. Although looking back, I was always relying on myself. I was doing everything myself. I wasn't consulting with the Lord in anything. I was thanking him for for the daily bread. But I wasn't living a life taking up a cross. That wouldn't have described me. You wouldn't have looked at me in a concert and said, that that man loves the Lord. That would not be something you said.

Jim Daly: Well, that's an interesting self-observation though. That's one of the difficulties all of us have is being able to look back at ourselves. Like from someone watching you at a concert and knowing what they would see. I I applaud that. That's really self-aware.

Granger Smith: It's taken a lot of years to look at that and like I said to kind of uh, reverse engineer what was going on. What happened to me? But on June 4th, 2019, during this bliss in our family, I found my little boy River in the swimming pool, face down. I was out there with all the kids playing gymnastics with my daughter. My boys were playing water gun fight. Somehow the boys got into the gated pool and River fell in, refilling a water gun. I was in such shock to see him there, to uh, it was so out of place for anything that I could have possibly imagined. In such shock, uh, pulled him out. Waited as I did CPR, the the emergency services arrived. About 10 minutes. We lived out in the country. Too long for a his little brain to go without oxygen. They were able to recover his heartbeat. But within 24 hours, the doctors came in to tell us there was no brain activity and he was he was not going to make it. My life was radically altered at this point. Everything changed. My relationship with my family, my relationship with work, everything began to feel meaningless. Work, jobs, country music, performing, everything lost its taste. Not not a taste for life at all. It just felt absolutely worthless. And all of this should have been a red flag as a Christian. As a man professing Christ, not to say we wouldn't grieve heavily, not to say that there wouldn't be heavy sorrow. But there's a difference between that and having no hope, having no identity, no purpose. That is a that is a check engine light on the dash of any anybody proclaiming to be a Christian. Uh, I I was in this state for about six months until one night in Boise, Idaho on tour, after um, a a bunch of circumstances leading up to this moment, I came to the conclusion that I didn't want to live anymore. And that the the world would be better off without me. I had failed in the the one thing that a father is supposed to do, as they say, keep your children alive until they're 18 and get them out of the house, you know.

Jim Daly: So the guilt was heavy?

Granger Smith: I had failed. The guilt was crushing. The shame was crushing. The worthlessness, the purposelessness of of everything that I did, um, was pressing hard. And that night, uh, upon realizing in the tour bus that night that something else was speaking into me, realizing that I was not alone, that there was an enemy that had been speaking to me, that had been influencing me for who knows how long. And when I realized this was when I finally let go and cried out to the Lord, Jesus, please, save me, save me. And there was just enough peace in that moment to stop what I was doing and to re-center and as I called out to the Lord over and over and I fell asleep on the floor of that tour bus that night, um, woke up the next morning, now not obsessed with the grief and the shame and the guilt anymore. But now there was a new idea that had surfaced. Who is Jesus really? What happened last night? Why why would he silence this enemy? Why would he come to me in this way? Um, maybe I have underestimated him my whole life. So now it was totally refocused into this idea of who is he? Who is he really? Now that that sounds very strange. I understand.

Jim Daly: I think it's interesting.

Granger Smith: But it is very interesting that I really became obsessed. I'd never thought in that moment, maybe I'm not saved. That didn't cross my mind. I just thought, maybe I've underestimated Jesus and I need there was a new growing desire to know more about him. So I just dove into, you know, where anyone goes when they need information these days, YouTube. I went to YouTube.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Granger Smith: To dive into ironically, not the Bible. I went to YouTube to know what happened to me. And this by the way, this obsession was also really suppressing the the guilt and the grief and the shame and the sorrow. It was really that took a back seat to this new passion.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Granger Smith: Three months later, I found my answer. I was driving, I'll never forget. It was March 1st the following year. And I was listening to yet another sermon. The pastor was preaching out of John 14, commentating, preaching, applying. And in verse 22, the disciple asked Jesus, Lord, why is it that you manifest yourself to us and not to the world? And I thought, really good question.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Granger Smith: Leaning I'm leaning in. Maybe, maybe what Jesus says is the answer. This is what I've been looking for. Why did he come to me on this tour bus when I was so undeserving? How did he silence the voice of this enemy? And then Jesus answered him in a way that was that reverse psychology to me. It really threw me off. Jesus said, if anyone loves me, he will keep my word. And my father will love him. And we will come to him and make our home with him. And I just thought I mean, that rocked my world. Because I knew in that moment, I was loved, redeemed, restored, forgiven, guilt washed away. I knew that he had visited me on that tour bus, that he had cleansed me of my desire to listen to an enemy, all the things. And yet, Jesus was saying in that moment, in this reverse psychology, you'll know the people that are loved and restored and forgiven and redeem. You'll know them because they are marked as a people that keep my word.

Jim Daly: Wow.

Granger Smith: And me, not really being a person that ever would have been a word keeper, or that I would even know my Bible, suddenly I wanted to.

Jim Daly: Yeah, hunger.

Granger Smith: I had the hunger now to be that person that he declared me that I already was, not because I was earning anything because I was it was already earned for me.

Jim Daly: That is so beautiful, the description of it. I could tell you're a creative mind. The way just the way you're talking about it is really good. Did you have though that fist toward the Lord because of because of River? I mean, many people, especially parents that go through that. This A, it could ruin your marriage.

Granger Smith: Yeah.

Jim Daly: Because it it's a something that the guilt becomes too heavy and you start fighting with one another as husband and wife. It just falls apart. Often times that fist at the Lord saying, why did you let this happen?

Granger Smith: It's it's it's a good question and I know that that is a common thing. I would say it sometimes people will tell me that that they're dealing with that.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Granger Smith: And I will say, in the gentlest way possible, when I hear that, you have a small view of God.

Jim Daly: Mm.

Granger Smith: Only someone with a small view of God would look at him and say, how could you do this to me?

Jim Daly: Hmm.

Granger Smith: And so, I look back on myself and I go, that one of the toxins in my life was a and in a nominal Christian life is thinking of God as being smaller than he is. Because we never see God in any of the scripture that appears to be aloof from any situation, including death. He's always there. He's always over it, always sovereign, always working through it, always purposing through it, always redirecting. You take Job as just a great example of Job and Elijah and all the times God speaks and says, I am here. Listen to me, trust me. So yes, of course you could ask those questions. I need to also say that there is a biblical way of saying this. You take the Psalms, and you see the Psalmist laments in such as Psalm 13 where he says, how long, oh Lord.

Jim Daly: Right.

Granger Smith: How long will you hide your face from me? So that's a godly way of looking to the Lord in sorrow, in grief, in depression and saying, where are you, God? How long? But I will trust in you. I know I know that you are good. And so we should use the Psalms for the godly lament. God wants us to bring his wrestling to him.

Jim Daly: Yeah. You know, so often people in that situation, both Christian and non-Christian. I would say Christian lite, can turn to self-help and, you know, self-care habits, which generally aren't bad. They're just incomplete, and it's kind of like falling short. There's so much more. We're we're composed of body, soul, and spirit. And so that might, you know, eating well and exercise, that's taking care of the body. And you can do some meditation and breathing and that's maybe taking care of the soul. But there's nothing in the spirit there that is getting you to where you need to be. Did you have some experience in that regard and, you know, where those things fell short?

Granger Smith: Sure. I was very addicted. I think that that would be a good word for it to self-help. It worked really well with me.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Granger Smith: And such a high-paced music business. You know, I needed my I needed my sleep. I needed to exercise. I needed to be eating right. There was a time in my life I was counting every calorie. Just wanting to be perfect for so my voice could be performing right. So, you know, I would avoid sugars and I would um, you know, I'd doing all the things.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Granger Smith: So that I could perform. But it was really always for the goal of me being the best that I could be. That was kind of the end of the goal, which is always the end of self-help, which is in the name itself, self-help. It's kind of self-defeating. Because ultimately we are dependent creatures. We are we think we are independent. We are dependent creatures and the more we go down that path, the more it hurts us.

Jim Daly: Yeah. No, that's so true. And I think, you know, I have met many non-believers that they are really given to those things.

Granger Smith: It's a religion.

Jim Daly: And I'm trying it is. And I'm trying to say, there's more to it than just that. You know, watching your sugar. There's a lot more to it. Reading the word would be good. In fact, reading the word became kind of a a dietary thing for you, meaning you're eating the meat of the word and really getting into the word. What was that experience like to, you know, go from being a nominal or veneer Christian if I can use that term, to then going, bam, okay, and you're into the word and it's making sense to you and you're seeing it play out day by day. You're feeling it and you're living it. That had to be awesome.

Granger Smith: Awesome. It's often the Bible talks about the word in a dietary sense. You know, Jesus says of it that man cannot live on bread alone, but from every word that comes from the mouth of God. Eat the word. We we wouldn't skip a meal. We surely shouldn't skip our daily intake of the word of God.

Jim Daly: And you begin to transform your life pretty quickly with the word, right?

Granger Smith: God did that through the word.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Granger Smith: Yes. And and so yes, going back to the the moment on March 1st, hearing the word of Christ, his exalting me to know the word and to be a doer of the word, you know. And I went home and I told my wife, I said, we we have to read the word. We are devotional junkies. We were devotional junkies, you know. Which is salad. When we need steak. We need potatoes. We need meat, you know.

Jim Daly: I like it.

Granger Smith: And and we had been eating salad for way too long. And so she said, great. And the Lord in in in the Lord's kindness, he brought us together spiritually. And she said, great, where do you want to start? And I said, Matthew 1. That sounds like a good place. That's where Jesus is born. Let's just start at the birth of Christ. That way we could know all the things he says. But by the time I get to the end of Revelation, I recognize that Jesus had been saying that Moses and the Prophets were talking about him. So I wanted to go to Genesis and then work my way back so that I wouldn't miss any of the word. And it just became, and it still is, a daily habit that I dare not break because I am too weak to go a day without his word.

Jim Daly: Well, that's true for all of us.

Granger Smith: I I I mean even as I mentioned this week we were in the mountains, my son and I, and I I want to start my day, even in the mountains, reading the word of God.

Jim Daly: Yeah. What a great place to do that. The Rockies, right? In the Rockies.

Granger Smith: It's it's a tremendous place.

Jim Daly: I mean, it is beautiful. Um, God calls us to be made new and stand out in the secular culture. I, you know, I think as you said, there there'll be marked. You will know the difference. And then God is so kind to give us what those differences will be in Galatians, right? If you're in me, here's the fruit that you will bear, basically, love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and all those good fruit of the spirit elements. Um, how are you balancing all that on stage? You've got a persona as a country music guy and then you've got this bubbling faith in you. Did you ever feel conflicted?

Granger Smith: I was a a clumsy season for me. I felt convicted every day.

Jim Daly: Well, and conflicted, like what who am I right now?

Granger Smith: Yeah. Yeah, I would I would uh, I would host little Bible studies on the on the tour bus with other people that were on tour. Um, so I was reading my word. That was the habit I started early on in those days. And then I would proceed throughout the day and go get on stage and just feel like I was doing nothing but promoting myself. So I started adding Amazing Grace to the set list. Maybe that'll help. Now tell them the, you know, tell them the people the gospel on the stage. Maybe that'll help. At the end of the day, I was still just trying to promote myself and needing needing selfishly uh, more attention because that's what that's what that business was built around is is self-exaltation. And that was the conflict within me. And the Lord would not leave me alone on that.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Granger Smith: And it was a slow process. It wasn't all of a sudden, I just said, I can't take this anymore. I just kept thinking, okay, well, I I need to make sure that I'm, you know, being a little more gentle with my with my words. I I was softening all the anything that was like PG-13 on the show. I was softening all of it. It would not go away. The Lord would not leave me alone in any of this.

Jim Daly: So you're in this environment, um, you know, you're playing country music, you've got a bus that you the band's on, I'm assuming. And partially the road crew and all that. What are they saying about this guy Granger? Like he was this way a few months ago, now he's acting differently. Did you get pushed back?

Granger Smith: It's funny you mentioned bus because we we had uh, two buses. I I I me and my tour manager and basically were on one. And then the other bus was all the crew and the rest of the band. And so we they it got to me knowing as this the sinin bus and the righteous bus.

Jim Daly: Okay.

Granger Smith: I did not name it that way. But they I think they thought I was going crazy. I think a lot of people in band included thought that this is the way that I was coping with the death of my son. And so they would say things like, hey, if that makes you happy, good for you.

Jim Daly: We'll roll with you.

Granger Smith: We'll roll with it. If if that's if this is your antidote to to the horrible situation you've been through, that's okay, man. I'm just glad you're I'm glad you're happy. You've found your thing that makes you happy. That's that that was the way my faith was looked at.

Jim Daly: It's kind of interesting to me as well. I I had the chance to play golf with Alice Cooper a little while back. He's actually an incredibly good golfer. And uh, it was fun. I mean, we had a good time and he's given his life to the Lord, you know, probably 40 years now. He was telling me a story that when he accepted Christ, he was dealing with bad alcoholism and he was backstage spitting up blood. And his wife was like, hey, you got to figure this out because this is killing you. And it was from drinking. And that's when he accepted Christ and and uh, started playing golf to replace the addiction of alcohol, which I thought that was really interesting. But in the course of playing golf with him that day, he he said, you know, I had a pastor friend who when I became a Christian, I said, I I got to get out of the industry. And the pastor friend said, I I'd think about that a little bit because why would God give you this incredible platform? Rip you out. Is there good you can do as a believer in that environment behind the scenes, on the stage, whatever. And that really paused that decision for him, and he stayed in it. And he went on to say, and I don't want to give away names, but everybody would know these names, both in music and acting. Because that credential, the street cred that he brought to the non-believers in the industry. Again, both music and acting. Uh, he started doing Bible studies with guys behind the scenes. And steering people toward the Lord and helping them answer questions that they haven't had answers to. And I thought, that's a beautiful expression of how to kind of stay in there. He's probably equally conflicted with, you know, the second band he has, the Vampires with Johnny Depp and others. But he sees it now as a calling. And I just find that really interesting that, you know, you got to think through what God is calling you to do.

Granger Smith: Yeah. Yeah, that I I I I that's encouraging to hear about Alice, and I would say that it's it is very dangerous for a man to stay in anything when he is worshipped and exalted and glorified.

Jim Daly: Yeah, that's interesting.

Granger Smith: And so I I I choose my words not to say that any man um, in in his walk with the Lord should be the same as mine. I I know that mine the Lord needed me out. And it's it's you know, the idea that we get as humans, it's such a human idea to think, I should stay in this because I've got a really big platform and a lot of people can come to Jesus by me telling them this. And in a way, God says, oh, did I ask for your help in this? Did I need did I need you for my kingdom to grow? Of course, he uses us as jars of clay. But in the same way, to what cost would we say, I want thousands of people to come to Christ. To what cost to ourselves losing ourselves in the danger of being worshipped. And and that is the same in any any celebrity field. It's it's it's a dangerous place to be.

Jim Daly: Anywhere you're known, politicians, actors, musicians.

Granger Smith: Pastors. Yes.

Jim Daly: Pastors. Mega pastors, Christian leaders. I mean, it's yeah, it's interesting because you become known and popular. And people connect to you and they want to be around you.

Granger Smith: That's right.

Jim Daly: And you got to be mindful that you're made just like them. You're nothing special. And that that's a hard thing for a lot of Christian leaders to be honest, you know. To keep that in perspective and don't let it go to your head and stay grounded and don't be prideful. I mean, the Lord's character is humility, right? One of his great characteristics. And he says to be like him.

Granger Smith: Yeah, Jesus spoke to thousands and they most of them walked away.

Jim Daly: Right.

Granger Smith: And he went back to his own and he said, will you leave me too?

Jim Daly: That is so such a good point. Um, so how do we stand out in secular culture? How do we project the right, you know, Refocus my goal here is to talk to people that are mixing it up with the world who can stand firmly, but still be true to those things like treating people respectfully and with grace, with honor, even though they don't think or believe the way we do. I think that's getting harder for us to do because we're filled with social media, cable news, and, you know, anger seems to be the thing that gets the most clicks. So we're being fed this all the time now is not to love your neighbor, to hate your neighbor.

Granger Smith: So first of all, stop eating it then if that's what you're being fed.

Jim Daly: Exactly.

Granger Smith: Yeah. No, that's good. Go on a diet.

Jim Daly: Yeah. Yeah, no kidding. No, that's true.

Granger Smith: Yeah. Yeah, and it it's so important. But even the courage to do that. Not going with the flow, to read the word and know the word well enough to know when you're not applying it correctly. First. That's kind of like getting the log out of your eye, right? Before you go after the speck in the other guy's eye for whatever it might be, a political position, a policy position, whatever it might be. But there is a danger right now where the church is at because we are being swept up into more political arguments. And I'm the first one to say, hey, register to vote, we need to protect the rights that we have. But not at the expense of God's witness through you. And that's hard.

Granger Smith: That's the key right there.

Jim Daly: That is the key.

Granger Smith: So a lot of this and in the a lot of this connects with good accountability from the local church. We need to surround ourselves with brothers, you and I, sisters, but surround ourselves with brothers that would be able to reach out and say, brother, can I talk to you about something? I saw that comment you made on the on that lady's Facebook page. The political thing. And I I just got to say, you know, you know, I love you, but I I don't think that was very Christlike the way you said that to her. It was personally attacking her. And a a a Christian would hear that rebuke and go, You're right, brother. Thank you for calling me out. Forgive me for that. I will go and delete that comment. That that's the place. That's the the desirable place to live. We want to live in that world. And so, um, accountability in the local church, and not from just a friend that's across the country, but in your local church that could see you face-to-face. They can go, if we got coffee on Wednesday, there's something I want to run by you.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Granger Smith: You know,

Jim Daly: It's interesting because that scripture where uh, Paul, I believe, is saying that the Father will take care of holding the world accountable.

Granger Smith: Yeah.

Jim Daly: But for us, we need to concentrate on holding one another accountable within the church. That's a paraphrase, but that's generally what he's saying. And it's like we've reversed that. We're willing and quick to hold the world accountable to a standard that they don't even understand or embrace.

Granger Smith: Yes.

Jim Daly: And we're very lax holding one another accountable to the standards we should know and behave like.

Granger Smith: That's right.

Jim Daly: Right? It's

Granger Smith: We've kind of flipped what Paul said and now we don't want to judge the church. We want to judge the world. And Paul said the exact the exact opposite.

Jim Daly: He did.

Granger Smith: He said, you judge your brothers and sisters.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Granger Smith: You know. To the measure that you would be judged. And but we we have flipped that and and we should look at the world and we should go, what they're saying is is so offensive. But it's because they don't know Jesus. I wish they knew Jesus.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Granger Smith: What if we looked at it that way?

Jim Daly: Yeah, I agree. You know, it is like a POW operation. In Second Timothy 2, uh again Paul's talking about in that context, when you encounter people that oppose us, first endure evil patiently. How do we do on that one? Let's give it a letter grade.

Granger Smith: Yeah, F.

Jim Daly: F.

Granger Smith: Yeah. Yeah, one to 10. How are we doing?

Jim Daly: And to be gracious to the outsider.

Granger Smith: Just generally.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Granger Smith: F. How are we doing? Yeah. Yeah, one to 10, great.

Jim Daly: But, you know, so the instruction is there, but the flesh, it's so quick to want to correct others. I don't know why our pride goes there.

Granger Smith: No, that's a great point, and I think you're saying it right. Um, the deeper question, when the brother rebukes the other brother about the comment on Facebook, that scenario, what it that conversation also needs to go to, why what is it in your heart that wants to lash out? What what evil in there needs to be rooted out? And I think you said it right. It's usually pride. What pride in you, brother, that wants to be right politically over this, that you need to lash out and to go to say something hateful to another image-bearer of God. What what could we do to to run to Christ again, to fall at the at the foot of the cross, begging him to root that sin of pride out? That is a good conversation to have.

Jim Daly: Now, it is, and unfortunately, too too few people do this. What does that accountability look like for a church to kind of move in that direction to be able to say, this is the structure. I love John Burke, who's a friend of mine, the original Gateway Church in Austin, Texas. And he has a banner over his church door. It says, come as you are, but you can't stay that way.

Granger Smith: Yeah.

Jim Daly: That's awesome. And that is the Christian life. It's the Christian walk. God will accept you where you're at. But you can't stay there. You can't continue to behave like the world when you claim Christ. You've got to begin to behave like Christ.

Granger Smith: Yeah.

Jim Daly: And in that context, what can a church do, a pastor listening to us, saying, wow, they're on it. That's the right thing. How do you create accountability like that that's healthy? It doesn't get into this division within the church where you end up with separate camps on doctrines and other things. All you're saying is, we need to hold each other accountable to how we behave and act and talk to other people. How do we do that?

Granger Smith: Start with for the pastor, start with preaching the word on Sunday mornings. Don't neglect to preach the word. May let the main diet of your preaching be expositional or line by line through books of the Bible, so that the people are getting a healthy diet of the word of God as they are sanctified by the word, which is truth, as it's poured over them. And that will changing from the main diet being topical, marriage, grief, parenting, all the things. And we're going to go through a seven-week series of this. There's nothing wrong with that, unless it's the main diet. And then the people are not hearing the word of God on the regular. And that will change the way the church loves each other and rebukes each other and corrects each other and encourages one another as they're being fed a healthy diet of the word.

Jim Daly: You know, it's interesting in the culture today because I think there's very little appetite for correction in the receptor's part, you know, the receiver's part. Um, hey, who are you to tell me what to do? This is what I believe. This is what I think. I mean, it the culture is like that. We're very me-focused, especially in the US. Very independent. And in that context, even in the church, that that seepage of culture gets in. And it mutes or dilutes our ability to be a a sharp sword for one another to help one another become better in Christ, which is good. But how do we recognize that attitude within us? Like, who are you to be telling me what to do? You know what I'm saying?

Granger Smith: Yeah. Yeah, so that goes back to a healthy intake of the word of God daily, a healthy church feeding you the word of God through the preaching, being known by your pastors, being known by other members of your church, so that you cannot disappear into the shadows, so that you can't disappear into the oblivion of of overcorrection or affindability. And so yeah, the the way to fight all of those things, which is very un-Christian what you just said. The person that lives in a world where he cannot take correction is a person that is not being, if they're a believer, they're not being sanctified.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Granger Smith: And and so, yeah.

Jim Daly: So you're stuck in the mud.

Granger Smith: This is just an an example of a sheep um in a flock that needs to be picked up by the pastor and the other sheep and brought back into the the middle of the fold where they're protected.

Jim Daly: Yeah. In the book you you mentioned a story about a friend uh who was a pilot, I think. And you use that analogy of being a pilot to kind of make a point with him. What was what's the circumstance? And why the pilot analogy?

Granger Smith: Yeah, you know, for so long I was stuck in this what I call nominal Christianity in name only. It's a uniquely American problem. It's all over the world, but it's uniquely American in the sense that we have churches on every corner. Uh it everyone could tell you that Jesus died on the cross. It's really not that big a deal to profess Christ. In fact, it might help you in life. It it it might align with your conservative values and it might uh, it might do you might do well for professing Christ. But uh, I I had a friend that was having trouble understanding this. He was saying, I mean, what's what's the big deal? I I'm a Christian. You're a Christian. We're both Christians. What's the big deal? And I knew that he was he was a pilot, he loved to hobby fly. And I said, what what would it mean to you if you went to a gas station and you're pumping gas in your truck, and the guy on the other pump had a pilot's cap on. And you said, ah, you're a pilot. And he said, I am. So am I. What do you fly? And he goes, well, I I'm really good at simulators. I don't actually fly planes, but I'm a I'm an ace at a simulator. And you would think, then you're not a pilot. You just say you are. And in the same way, a Christian that proclaims Christ, that could tell you the gospel, would also live a life that overflows from that that claim that he made. In the same way, you would you would say, well, tell me a little bit about your walk with Christ. And you would easily be able to spout off your church and the way you serve and the way the way you and your wife are walking through the book of Mark together and the you know, all the things that someone that is daily following Christ would do. But if you said, I don't really have a church. I don't really read the Bible. I I don't really do any of these things, then you'd say, brother, I don't think you're a Christian. You just say you are.

Jim Daly: Mm.

Granger Smith: But that is big for people to get a hold of.

Jim Daly: Another scenario that I say in the South a lot is the deer hunter. What if I told you I was a deer hunter? I love deer hunting. A lot of people would expect if they came to my house that I lived a life that backed up that claim. They would expect to see shoulder-mounted bucks on the wall and and a freezer full of venison and and a closet full of camo. And they would expect that I would live a life that was always planning on the next trip out in the woods. And I want to take you there to share in the joy with me. Otherwise, I wouldn't be a deer hunter. Not that any of those things make the deer hunter, but a true deer hunter always results in those outpourings.

Jim Daly: Yeah, that is so good that analogy. And it's a good another good way of measuring yourself and where you're at, which is what you're indicating.

Granger Smith: Yeah, testing test yourself. This is none of this is to earn faith or to to check off a box, but it is testing yourself.

Jim Daly: Yeah. Let me let me get into a couple of questions that I think are important for us. When we have a fear or we don't have a an ability. I've heard this said to me before, you know, it's great you could talk to people in the gay community or, you know, I just don't have that gift to talk to sinners. I mean, they they don't say it exactly like that. But it is what they're saying. And I'm so glad that there's people in the kingdom like you who can go and talk to people like that. I've actually had that said to me. And I'm sitting here going, I think we're we're all supposed to be doing this. But I and without chastising too much. I get it. You might have inhibitors, like you're an introvert. Being around people is a little uncomfortable. But all those things, I mean, proclaiming the good news of Christ is core to the Christian. And it doesn't mean you get every stop light, you got to look around and have somebody roll their window down and then go. It's just being in tune with people that are crossing your path that the Lord might be putting there for a conversation. But to that person specifically who's saying, brother, it's so good you've got that gift. When you get on stage, Granger, it's wonderful you get on stage and you can share the gospel and sing a song like Amazing Grace. I I'm just not wired like that. What do you say to them?

Granger Smith: Yeah, that's it's um, that sounds like another check engine light on the dash where you would have a you would need to be retuned on your urgency for the lost. And a right understanding of the urgency of the timing of the gospel that needs to go out. It's a wrong understanding of who God is and what he has declared and on top of all that, it's a misunderstanding of who we are as sinners ourselves. Right. And how undeserving we are of the grace of God that he would so graciously and and lovingly save us from the path that we were on. Yeah. That might be the same as the path we're looking at. So to look at someone and say, I just don't have a heart for that is to say, I'm better than them. And I I was deserving of knowing the gospel, you know, which is

Jim Daly: It does give that vibe.

Granger Smith: It gives that Luke 18 vibe of the Pharisee and the tax collector where he said, I thank God, I'm not like that tax collector down there. I I do all the right things. The tax collector who says, have mercy on me, God, a sinner. Jesus says, that's the one justified. So with with hearts like that, hearts in humility, a growing urgency for the lost, then we just can't help but tell the world about the one that saved us.

Jim Daly: And that's coming again, as you said, throughout our whole time together, that's coming from a cup that's running over from reading the word, knowing the word, applying the word, which is, you know, prayer and reading the word are the two most important ingredients because it draws you closer to the Lord.

Granger Smith: Let me say to imagine this thought. For that person, for the guy that you're talking about, imagine this thought. Imagine being in heaven and someone walking up to you and going, it was you.

Jim Daly: Oh, yeah, isn't that? Wow.

Granger Smith: You're the one that told me about this place. If that doesn't get to you. Yeah. In a in a in a in a profound way, then we need to recalibrate. Yeah. You know, I I've used an analogy of what it's going to be like to stand in front of the Lord. Now, we don't know. We're all reading the word and interpreting what that might look like. But two things have come to my mind, and I'll play these conversations for you. You give me your your response. One is, you're in front of the Lord. You're in an auto accident. John Burke's book on, imagine the God of heaven, right? Here we are. And it's in a moment. All this is happening. And you're standing there and you're saying, Lord, I did my best to hold those people accountable to your standard of righteousness. And he says, uh, that that was my job. Or the guy that's going to say, the person that's going to say, Lord, I did my best to love people that were really difficult. I hope I honored you. Which one sounds more like the the Lord's heart?

Granger Smith: Every time we see someone in the Bible meet the Lord, they fall on their face. Yeah. And they have no words. Give them that's fair. And so I think I I can only imagine when we would get to heaven, we would be on our face worshipping the God of the universe in such unbelievable awe of him that the the only thought that would be floating through our our meek hearts is gratitude.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Granger Smith: We fully know now that it was what it what it was. And it would be all him. You did this. And it wouldn't be a thought of, well, God, I I tried, you know, I tried to, you know, faithfully give the word out, right? And you know, it would just be like, how did I a sinner end up here? Only by the grace of Jesus.

Jim Daly: Why are you aware of me?

Granger Smith: How are you aware of me? Yeah. Yeah. That's my thought. That's great. That's my thought.

Jim Daly: That's my thought. You, you know, asking good questions is so important. And in the book you mentioned this idea of what if a mosque was being built next door? How would you respond? That one has some, you know, some cutting energy to it. And I give it to us and let us all feel that, what that could look like or what it would be like. Describe it.

Granger Smith: Yeah, that that is something that that is a hot topic right now. Yeah, it is. That is a hot topic right now. And I I think this really connects a lot of these things connect. It is, let me just make a statement here. I believe it's more difficult to be a Christian in America than it is in Iran.

Jim Daly: Interesting.

Granger Smith: And I'm not. There's miracles that are occurring there. People come to Christ. You hear about it. Yeah, and I'm not saying in the in in terms of we have endless resources and we could freely worship on a Sunday without without fear. That's a wonderful thing. That's a wonderful gift that we have. But I think that that with that gift comes also this um, kind of passivity where it doesn't really exactly. I think I think going with the kids to travel ball would be a little easier this weekend. I could make church next weekend. No one says that in Iran.

Jim Daly: They're dying.

Granger Smith: They're going to worship their hearts out. Anytime, they're desperate for the Lord. They're desperate for God. And so to that, here we are in America, with all the things, all the resources, and there's a a mosque being built and the first thing Christian says is, uh, get these people out of here. Not in my country.

Jim Daly: Right.

Granger Smith: Like, that's interesting. What if we what if that was a wonderful opportunity for evangelism? And we stopped thinking about our comfortable little lives all the time, and how perfect we want our grandchildren to grow up so they could play travel baseball. Instead we start thinking, I know for a fact, these people moving in here are not believers. They these people do not know Jesus. And so I will make it my life's goal now that they will know the gospel.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Granger Smith: And I will invite them to my house. You know, that is.

Jim Daly: It's great.

Granger Smith: That is so un-American. You know.

Jim Daly: I got to connect you with John Burke, because his part of his testimony as a pastor in Austin, is a lot of people in his neighborhood are immigrants from India because they're tech.

Granger Smith: Yeah.

Jim Daly: And he has been able to just like a Pied Piper, walk that neighborhood, show interest and concern for people. Dozens of people have come to Christ because of him being their neighbor. That's what it should look like.

Granger Smith: So what's more important, that dozens of people come to Christ, or we have comfortable lives and everyone in our neighborhood looks like us?

Jim Daly: Ouch. Laying the truth out a little hard.

Granger Smith: That's a real question.

Jim Daly: No, it's good.

Granger Smith: No, it's good.

Jim Daly: I mean, yeah, them coming to Christ is the most important thing. Yeah. Obviously. Let me let me give you a scripture that a friend gave to me years ago. And it really helped me better prioritize and understand the battles that we're in with the culture. But it's Second Timothy. People that listen to the podcast, no, I I go to this scripture often. It's Second Timothy right around 2:23, 2:24. But it says, have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies. You know that they breed quarrels. I'd say that's cable news and social media. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone. Not kind to most people, or kind to the people that are kind to you. Kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. So there to me is a a spiritual DNA tactical plan there. That's a playbook that the Lord's given Paul to give to us. He's wired our hearts. When you show that kindness and that gentleness, something in the opponent, if I could refer to that non-believer that way, somebody who's even hostile. And I've seen it happen. Their heart softens when you show them sincerity, kindness, love. It's irresistible. I can't be mad at this person. Look how kind they are to me. That's a rational response. And like the Lord is saying, here's the key to opening their heart. Doesn't take it all the way perhaps, but they will think differently. It goes on to say, God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will. It is a POW operation. Every human being is made in the image of God, each and every one. And we're here to let them know about the gospel and the saving nature of Christ, right?

Granger Smith: So what if we looked at people that were hostile to us, or uh, politically different than us, or sinful in whatever way that we could see. What if we looked at them as captives? Right. To an enemy, like you're saying, that needed to be freed. And what if we had a a right understanding of our own standing with the Lord in terms of our own our own ability to earn God's pleasure? You know, somehow as if we're somehow statistically better because we're we're heterosexual or whatever, whatever your argument could be. Name, name anything. We somehow start to think we're better in this situation and we completely have misunderstood our our place with God who saved us not because of anything we did, not because of works done by us in righteousness. But according to his own mercy, which he has poured out on us richly through Christ Jesus. So, what if we looked at every person like that as a captive slave that needed to hear the truth to be freed? And this is also why a recalibration of the Bible constantly, daily. I wouldn't dare go a day without an intake of the word, because I'm not strong enough. I would go right back to fleshly ways. I would start to think, uh, I'm better than those people, or they don't need to be saved, or they're too bad to be saved, or I'm so good that I would That's the direction we start heading the further we get from that recalibration with the Bible. So we need to read that. And Paul's exhortation to Timothy, his disciple, and we need to think, uh, where's my gentleness today? Lord, help me. I've lost my gentleness today. Lord, help me to to regain the truth that you have made me to be gentle, that your truth would go out gently. Oh, that word, your your truth in your word this morning really got me with that word gentleness. What if what if that was our that?

Jim Daly: Yeah, think of that.

Granger Smith: Yeah. Yeah, that I mean, it's right there for us to read. People will say, it's so good that you can go do that with those people. I'm going, uh, I had a good third and fourth grade teacher that taught me how to read. It's right there for us to read. It's not a special gift. It's what God is expecting of us. And it's a good thing. And not to be fearful. Granger, this has been so good. I've enjoyed the conversation. I'm amazed at how God has brought you from that fame, that music industry. I'm sorry. Really it tears me up right now just thinking of the death of your son. That is the loss is irreplaceable. I'm so sorry that you had to go through that you and your wife and your family. But, man, now he works all things for good. Really, Granger?

Granger Smith: He does. He works all things. He is Paul would say, this light momentary affliction is preparing or producing in us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison. And I could tell you right here, this is the most joyful season of my life.

Jim Daly: Wow. That's.

Granger Smith: And I wouldn't trade any of it for what the Lord has done.

Jim Daly: Wow, if folks are hurting, get a hold of Focus on the Family. We have counselors who can help and we'd like to see you get to that place that Granger is at. That the Lord is sufficient, even in all our doubts. Amen. Thanks for being with us.

Granger Smith: Thank you, brother.

Jim Daly: That conversation was so powerful and I hope you feel inspired to stand for Christ. Whatever that looks like in your circle of influence. The culture is broken because it's desperate for the hope of Christ, and I hope you won't buy into that lie that Christianity is oppressive or burdens people with pointless rules. As Granger experienced, the hope that comes from a relationship with Jesus is life-saving. So, we can't listen to the culture when it tries to convince us that our faith should be kept to ourselves in the name of tolerance. And what that does is place tolerance above our faith. As Galatians 1:10 says, am I now trying to win the approval of human beings or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ. Man, that is so clear and relevant for us today. Like Granger Smith, you have to choose to please people or put gaining God's approval first. Even when we speak the truth in love, we risk making others angry. But we should fear God more than we fear people. You can read about fearing God and strengthening the foundation of your faith in Granger Smith's book, Poison in the Well, 11 toxic beliefs that kept me from the living water of Jesus. Please get a copy from us today. When you make a donation of any amount to Refocus, we'll send it to you as our way of saying thank you for your support. Your generosity helps us to create more episodes, reach more listeners, and share a Christ-centered voice in the culture. Every donation equips more believers to live out their faith and make a lasting difference. Now for the inbox segment. Here's a voicemail from Mark.

Mark: My teenage child keeps telling me that biblical values are outdated. How can I have a productive conversation without lecturing her?

Jim Daly: You know, Mark, that is a great question, and I'm just a little ahead of you with 20-somethings now. So my boys, they were teenagers not that long ago. But I think one of the approaches for us is to ask good questions. What makes you feel like our faith is oppressive? Why would you have that conclusion? And then I would ease into that idea of what true liberty we find in Christ, that uh, it's a free gift, our salvation. We don't earn it. But what do we do with such a gift? We honor the person who has given us that gift. And how do we honor the Lord in that way? It's by representing him well, certainly loving and kind, but also straightforward and true. And you can do both. So, thank you, Mark, for that. And uh, yeah, the teenage years, those are good times to uh, not be fearful as a parent, but to engage it. Let them ask their questions. Invite their questions and be sure not to lecture, but maybe just to have that dialogue and try to get out of their heart where they're coming from. And Mark, I'll send you a copy of Refocus, living a life that reflects God's heart because we were able to use that question. Thanks again. Now, if you have a question or comment for me, please send me a voicemail or leave a comment in the contact form. Tell me about how the podcast is impacting your life, or let me know the topics you'd like to hear discussed on Refocus. The links are in the show notes and I'd love to hear from you. Thanks for listening to Refocus with Jim Daly. Please let us know what you thought of the episode and the review. You'll be helping us reach more listeners, so we can continue to encourage believers and spread the love of Christ. And don't forget to like, listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Next time on Refocus, Alexandra Hudson talks about civility and treating others with respect, even when you disagree. And I would love to see the church become a coalition championing not political issues, but leading with human dignity and humanity. You know, how do we see God in ourselves? How do we see God in others? That's coming up on Monday, September 21st, on the next Refocus with Jim Daly.

Female Speaker: Sometimes you feel crazy in love with your spouse. Other times your spouse might drive you crazy. And sometimes it's both all at once. Marriage is a wild ride, but it's a beautiful grand adventure as well. So navigate all the ups and downs and in-betweens with crazy little thing called marriage, a podcast from Focus on the Family. I'm Erin Smalley, and I co-host the podcast with my husband, Dr. Greg Smalley. We sit down with amazing guests to talk about all things marriage, like how do we stay connected, or how do we continue growing as individuals or as a couple? Each episode will help you tackle problems you may be facing or just help you make your relationship even sweeter. Listen to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage and other podcasts from Focus on the Family at focusonthefamily.com/podcast. That's focusonthefamily.com/podcast.