ReFOCUS with Jim Daly

Guest (Male): Taylor loves listening every day because we give him ideas, tips, and resources to improve his marriage.

Guest (Male): I like giving back to Focus on the Family because Jesus came not to be served but to serve, and Focus has served me tremendously. I’ve just felt it on my heart that I needed to give back.

Jim Daly: I’m Jim Daly. Let’s transform our nation one family at a time with your monthly pledge at focusonthefamily.com/families.

Victoria Jackson: And he called up the pastor of Bel Air Pres and asked him how to be saved, and he said the sinner’s prayer on the phone with the pastor from Bel Air Pres. And I said, "Sidney, for real? That happened for real?" So maybe Norm, we'll see him in heaven.

Jim Daly: That’s exciting. That’s actress and comedian Victoria Jackson telling a story about her good friend, fellow actor Norm Macdonald. And you’ll hear many more stories from her time in Hollywood and from her experiences on Saturday Night Live back in the late 80s and early 90s.

Welcome to ReFOCUS with Jim Daly, a podcast production from Focus on the Family. Victoria Jackson has spent much of her life in the spotlight, but through every stage, from Hollywood comedy clubs to late-night television, she’s carried a deep desire to point people to Jesus ever since she gave her life to Christ as a little girl.

In this delightful conversation, Victoria reflects on her unusual childhood, her rise in entertainment, the challenges of living out her faith in a secular industry, and the sobering clarity that has come through suffering, loss, and a terminal cancer diagnosis. With humor and honesty, she’ll encourage you to see every relationship and every season of life as an opportunity to faithfully share the hope of Christ, and I think you’re going to hear that message clearly in this discussion.

Victoria was on SNL for six seasons, and she’s had a long career, and it was really fun to visit with her. Let’s get right to it here on ReFOCUS with Jim Daly. Victoria, welcome to ReFOCUS.

Victoria Jackson: Thank you, Jim Daly!

Jim Daly: It’s so much fun. And the one thing, as I looked at all the things that you have done—and we’re going to get into your life story and talk about how God opened these doors—but Saturday Night Live is a big deal and it was really fun back when you were on the show. I remember my wife and I watching and it was hilarious. Do you look back on that and think, "Wow, how did God put me in this spot?"

Victoria Jackson: Yes. While I was there, I remember walking through the halls and I thought, "I didn’t have a TV, I’d never seen the show before I was on it, and I didn’t really know how to do characters and impressions, but I learned how after I auditioned and got the job and was there for a long time."

But I remember walking down the hall and thinking, "This is my mission field. This is my mission field." So I tried to witness to the cast when I got the opportunity.

Jim Daly: That’s so good. I remember working in business before I came to Focus on the Family and a mentor of mine said, "Hey, just be a Christian where you’re at." And that’s so simple when you think about it, whether you’re doing Saturday Night Live, which would have some rough edges, and we’ll get into that. But first, Victoria, let’s talk about your childhood. How did you end up in Southern California? What was your childhood like? What was going on?

Victoria Jackson: Well, my dad was a great example of bringing Jesus into wherever you are. He was so good at that because my dad was in Vaudeville. He was a gymnast, juggler, trampoline guy, and he became a born-again Christian when he was about 30 or 35 after he married my mom. She led him to the Lord.

So he became a Baptist deacon and my childhood was so unusual because he'd be teaching girls’ gymnastics in the backyard on the beam, bars, and trampoline, and then we’d be in church three nights a week, in the gym five days a week, no TV. I had a great childhood.

But my dad studied the Bible and he had that book Kingdom of the Cults, and he studied it and underlined it. He got the Quran and he underlined it. I said, "Daddy, why do you think Christianity is the truth?" and he said, "It makes the most sense." So my dad gave me this hunger for the Word of God and I love studying it. I went to a Bible college when I was 16 because I graduated from high school early. But how did I get to Hollywood and acting? It’s a funny place to go.

Jim Daly: But before we go there, I do want to press on that gymnastics thing because that became a focal point for your life as a young girl. You did gymnastics from about what, 8 to 18?

Victoria Jackson: From age 0 to 18.

Jim Daly: That whole gymnastics thing taught you discipline, it taught you a lot. My niece did regional gymnastics, she was aiming for the Junior Olympics. It demands a lot out of you. So is that where you formulated that ability to concentrate and perform and do those kinds of things?

Victoria Jackson: Yes, it’s a very great sport. It teaches you discipline and it teaches you delayed gratification. It took me five years to learn how to stick a handstand. I was my dad’s assistant. I went with him everywhere because it was the family business and I helped teach his classes. Every time I had time, I would kick up to a handstand.

And my dad had handstand contests with all the little gymnasts and he would say, "Ready, kick up!" and then he’d go, "1, 1,000, 2, 1,000," and then we’d try to stick it. So it took me five years and then I could stick it. I could stick it anywhere—on a fire hydrant, on top of a car. And that was I just took it for granted until I went to Hollywood and I thought, "How can I stand out in this crowd of talented people that are way more qualified than me?"

And I thought, "Hey, I bet none of them could do a handstand," so that was my little gimmick that helped me stand out. And my oncologist, my cancer doctor, I said, "Dr. Rexer, I was doing a handstand in New York at the Plaza for the SNL 40th. I was so excited. I wasn’t on stage, I was in my hotel room, and I fell on my head and I heard my spine go crrrck." And he goes, "Don’t do that anymore."

Jim Daly: Don’t ever do that again. That sounds like my doctor. He just told me to quit doing sports of different types because it’s not good for my 65-year-old body. But let me ask you Victoria, you made that commitment to Christ at eight. Did you know what you were doing at eight years old to say, "Lord, come into my life"? How does an eight-year-old know that?

Victoria Jackson: I was six years old and this is how I knew. Because my dad was a teacher and he taught us how to read. He didn’t believe in kindergarten, he thought we should stay home until first grade. But anyway, I think when I was six, I learned how to read and the words of John 3:16 came alive to me and I realized that God died for me, that it was personal, that he didn't just die for the whole world.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. I realized it was "For God so loved Vicky." And I don't know, I think it's because I learned to read, a light bulb went off.

Jim Daly: I love it. I think it’s so good. It’s that simple. It’s not complicated, and that’s what makes it so hard when you’re older and come to Christ, like your dad at 30. There’s a lot more stuff there you’ve got to think about and rationalize. But that’s wonderful. Now let’s get you to Hollywood. How did you get there?

Victoria Jackson: Okay, so when I was 16, my dad goes, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" and I said, "I don’t know," and he said, "Well, you better decide. The sooner you decide, the better you could be at it." And I said, "Well, if I could be anything, I would like to be Maria in The Sound of Music and have seven children in matching outfits and play the ukulele on a mountain and be married to the Captain and live in a mansion."

And he goes, "Hmm, well, that sounds like an actress. I don't recommend it because show business and Christianity don’t mix very well. But if that’s what you want to be, give it 100%." That’s a big sentence. So I had that in the back of my mind and as I went through college, English major—what can you do with an English major?—and then I was in my first play at Furman in South Carolina and I got the acting bug.

Because I was feather-dusting the door and I made the audience laugh and I got addicted to that. I must get this feeling again of making the audience laugh. So then I couldn't afford college, so I auditioned for summer stock and I was in a play in Birmingham—three plays for $600 for the whole summer—and then Johnny Crawford was flown in to be the lead.

Jim Daly: Now Johnny Crawford was who?

Victoria Jackson: Okay, he was a child star and he was in the show called The Rifleman with Chuck Connors, which was a little before our time.

Jim Daly: Well, I watched it! I was probably four, five, six years old. What was his name in The Rifleman? What was the Rifleman’s son’s name? There you go, we’ll let people respond. You can contact us and let us know the Rifleman’s son’s name. I can't remember. But anyway, so that was him. And so what was his connection to you?

Victoria Jackson: I think it was Mark. Was it Mark?

Jim Daly: Mark! You’re right, it was Mark. Well done.

Victoria Jackson: But I didn't have a TV so I never saw it and I knew he said "Pa, Pa" a lot.

Jim Daly: Pa, yeah, he said Pa. But I loved that show because it was a single dad. I had lost my mom at one point, so that connected with me, which is what so many shows did in that time. They weren’t pushing an ideology, they were just virtue-oriented and the single parent dad, the Rifleman, trying to be the good guy in the Western plains living out his life. But so how did this gentleman, the son of Pa, how did he connect with you in real life and get you into acting?

Victoria Jackson: Well, I was in the chorus line, he was the lead, and I was doing handstands on fire hydrants and I was doing flips in the chorus line and of course, the choreographer liked that. In real life, people don't reward you for flipping over, but in show business, they do reward you.

Like, I was a secretary for a lawyer once when I was a temp and I did a back handspring for his birthday because the secretaries were singing Happy Birthday and they all looked at me like I was crazy.

Jim Daly: I’m sure! They’re not used to that much fun.

Victoria Jackson: Yeah! But then if you do it on stage, everyone claps and they’re happy about it. So anyway, Johnny saw me doing handstands and he said, "Hey, you would be good in my nightclub act in Hollywood as the comic relief. I sing 30s songs and you’re like a 30s girl."

And so he gave me a one-way ticket to Hollywood and I said, "Well, I can't go unless you ask my parents," and I couldn't afford college the next year. I didn't know what I was going to do, my parents couldn't afford it. And then my parents told him yes. They go, "Oh, maybe you should, you can go off with a strange man to Hollywood, we trust you."

I can't believe it, I’d never let my daughter do that. And so I slept on his couch and then I got a job for about a month and then I got a job for room and board at a retirement home and I worked at the American Cancer Society typing.

Jim Daly: That’s amazing. So in the midst of all that, somehow Johnny Carson also entered the picture. How did you connect with Johnny Carson? I used to love that show, I watched it all the time.

Victoria Jackson: Yes, me too. Well, I thought, "How can I get an agent?" because Johnny Crawford didn't have any connections anymore and he couldn't help me too much. So I thought, "Hey, stand-up comedy is a new thing." It was 1980 and there weren’t many women doing it, so I thought, "Hey, if I do a stand-up comedy act, people will look at me and then maybe I’ll get an agent or maybe someone will cast me as an airhead in a sitcom."

That was my goal. I thought I would be good at that, I could do that. And so I started doing stand-up comedy all around town at night after my jobs and then the talent scout for The Tonight Show saw me and put me on Carson.

Jim Daly: That’s crazy. You were on something like 20 times The Tonight Show?

Victoria Jackson: Yeah, you’ve done your homework.

Jim Daly: Well, I know, but that is phenomenal. That’s about as much as Jay Leno was on the show before he took it over. So that’s pretty impressive. Tell me now, you’re still being a faithful Christian in the environment, you’re being... okay, you want to correct that?

Victoria Jackson: I went off the rails a little bit. I was a strong Christian, but what I did wrong was when I first went to Hollywood and I had no money, no family, no nothing, my priority was get a place to live, get a car, get a job, get an agent. And my priority should have been find a church because I would have had so much support.

But I thought I already know everything about church. I know every verse of the Bible, I know church. I was like, "I already know that, I don't know how to do these things." And I wish that I would have gone to a church.

I went to Hollywood Presbyterian, but I wasn't raised Presbyterian, I was raised Baptist, so I was a little suspicious of them and predestination and everything. And so I remember I walked home from that church because I didn't have a car and a weird guy followed me home, so I was afraid to go back because I thought, "Oh oh, he knows where I live and he knows where I go to church." But anyway, there aren't that many good churches in LA. There’s a few, but they’re not like on every corner like in Nashville where I am now.

Jim Daly: There you go. Well, let me ask you, how did the SNL, Saturday Night Live, how did that come about? The invitation to come join that crew? Because that was a wild bunch at that time. Name some of the co-stars that were on Saturday Night Live when you were there.

Victoria Jackson: Okay, I was there '86 to '92 and my cast was Dana Carvey, Dennis Miller, Phil Hartman, Jon Lovitz, Nora Dunn, Jan Hooks, and then when I was there like my last couple years, there was Adam Sandler, David Spade, Chris Farley.

Jim Daly: Some pretty wild guys and women. I’ve heard some backstage stuff about Saturday Night Live. It was big party time. Where were you at in your faith during that time?

Victoria Jackson: Well, my faith has always been strong. At Saturday Night Live, I was the only cast member with a baby. I was married and I had a three-month-old baby, so I didn't go out. I would rush home from work to be with my baby and I didn't want to miss her first step or her first word.

I don't think there was that much partying when I was there because John Belushi had died from a drug overdose and Lorne Michaels, our boss, our producer, was friends with him and drugs wasn't cool anymore because people were dying from drugs and I didn't see any drugs at my work there.

Jim Daly: Oh, that’s interesting. The impression is it was flowing in the back. But tell me about Dana Carvey, he seems like a pretty good guy.

Victoria Jackson: He is a very sweet, super talented little leprechaun.

Jim Daly: The other aspect of that is you did have some say, which I thought was really amazing for NBC and for the Saturday Night Live show and producers to let you speak about the script. Like, you were able to reject some things. Discuss that. What were some things that you would turn down and they were okay with?

Victoria Jackson: Yeah, I turned down a sketch where we were always trying desperately to get airtime, competing against each other, had to write our own material. So I was always saying to Lorne, "I didn’t have any lines this week."

And so one time they wrote me my own sketch and I starred in it and it was making fun of a Christian who’s over the top, like Jesus salt and pepper shakers, Jesus napkin holder, praying all the time, "Jesus help me move my hand over here to pick up my bread."

Anyway, I thought about it overnight and I thought there was one part of it where I had to kneel down and pray and I thought, "You know what? I can’t pray in a comedy sketch. I think it's really talking to God and I feel like it's blasphemous."

And so I met with Lorne in his office. I had to wait an hour because he’s very important, you have to wait an hour. And I went to him and I said, "Lorne, I don’t think I can do this sketch because I’m a Christian and I feel like it’s making fun of prayer and I’m afraid I’d either start crying or I would get hit by lightning in the middle of it."

And he said, "I understand, no problem." So he gave it to Julia Sweeney and she read it, she did it at dress rehearsal, and nobody laughed, so they just tucked it away, no one saw it.

But years later, when Sally Field was the host, they resurrected it and gave it to her and she did it. She did the part I turned down. Well, more power to them, but that’s great that you were able to let people know where you stood and not in a bad way. I’m sure it was very polite and you talked it through.

Oh yeah. And there were things that I shouldn't have done that I did do, but it was like last minute, "Oh, should I do that? Should I not do that?" and I don’t want to get fired and I have a baby, I’m supporting my husband and my baby. So there were times when I probably made the wrong choice, but I tried hard.

Jim Daly: Tell me about the conversation that you had with Jon Lovitz about the Lord and how did it go?

Victoria Jackson: Well, Jon Lovitz, I love him. And one time I sent him a Jewish tract in his Christmas card and it was about, Jesus was Jewish, Jesus is the Messiah, and the Bible verses that prophesy that Jesus fulfilled.

Anyway, ever since that Christmas card, every time I would see Jon Lovitz, he would bring up Jesus and he would say, "You can't be Jewish and Christian, it's like oil and vinegar, they don't mix." And I said, "Jon, Jesus was Jewish, everyone, everything in the Bible is Jewish, the disciples are Jewish."

And so we would talk like that and I'm still praying for him and I'm still trying to persuade him that Jesus is his Messiah.

Jim Daly: What’s so good about that is the grade that is there is not on the success of somebody converting, it’s on our faithfulness of being there for the Lord and doing what we can do. It’s really up to the Lord, the Holy Spirit, to take it from what level we can take it to in that relationship.

Let me ask you this. You walked into a meeting from what I understand and you read Romans 1. Now, that’s pretty bold. Romans 1 is a tough part of scripture where the sins of everybody are being laid out there and Paul’s addressing the Romans and saying, "These are the bad things you do," basically. What was the setting like for you to turn to Romans 1?

Victoria Jackson: Okay, so I never proselytized at work, it wouldn’t have been appropriate. I just showed up, was professional, knew my lines. But there were a few moments. One day I walk into the writers' room and they were talking about homosexuality. They were trying to think of gay jokes. And this was the late 80s, so it wasn’t like everywhere like it is now.

There’s a book called After the Ball about two gay PR guys who tried to change the attitude of homosexuality in America in 12 years and they did it. They did it by brainwashing this generation with television shows. And anyway, so they were talking about gay, they’re trying to think of gay jokes.

And I was listening to them and there was a Bible on the shelf at Saturday Night Live.

Jim Daly: Like a prop or something?

Victoria Jackson: Probably. It was there. I just looked, they were talking, I looked up, I saw a Bible on the shelf. I was like, "Wow." And then it came into my brain, Romans 1, and I thought, "They probably know I’m a Christian and they probably think I’m standing here prudishly thinking gay is a sin."

And I said, "So I should read them Romans 1 and show them that it's just a sin like all the other sins, like gossip." And so I said, "Hey guys, this is what the Bible says about homosexuality," and I started reading that verse that has gossip in the same paragraph with homosexuality and murder.

And so, yeah, it’s a sin, but we all have sins. That’s not the only sin or the worst sin. It’s kind of the point, right? We’re all sinners. Yeah. So they were all speechless and they were just like everything froze in time and then I just went, "Oh well," and I put the Bible back and left the room. So that was a funny moment. I guess the Holy Spirit prompted me.

Jim Daly: It’s an interesting and appropriate way to let it be known what you believe and what you think. You also sent the Bible on tape to the cast members as a Christmas present?

Victoria Jackson: Yes, I thought, "How am I going to tell the gospel to each cast member when I only see them passing in the hall or in a sketch?" We never really hung out and it was a workplace. And I thought, "I can’t explain to them all of the treasures I know in the Bible."

So I thought, "Hey, I know, it’s Christmas, we’re all making a lot of money, we all probably have new cars that have a new cassette player in them." That was the big thing in the 80s—cassette player in your car. So I got the Bible on cassette and I gave it to each of them all wrapped up for a Christmas present.

I put outside of their dressing room door and one person returned theirs and said, "I already have one," but nobody else said a word. And 20 years went by and I was doing stand-up with Kevin Nealon one day and we were in a limo and I said, "Kevin, did I really give you the Bible on cassette or is that like a dream I had?"

And he goes, "No, you really did that," and he says, "I still have it on my shelf and I think I've listened to number three and number five." And I was like, "Awesome! I did do that because that was my mission field."

Jim Daly: So good, once again, just being faithful and letting the chips fall where they may. People listen, people don't listen, whatever, it’s okay. But your cheery attitude and it's hard to be angry at a joyful person, and you obviously are a very joyful person. Let me ask you specifically about Norm Macdonald. There was a comment that he had come to Christ before succumbing to cancer, I believe he did. Do you know any insight on that and where was he at?

Victoria Jackson: Well, okay, so before I tell you that story, I just want to tell you my dad was such a good example of witnessing. My dad used to tell his gymnasts while he was driving them to a gym meet the gospel. And I remember him telling Maureen Fowler and I remember him saying, "Vicky, come here, come here." And I’m in my leotard, we’re all sweaty, working out in the gym and he said, "Tell Maureen John 3:16" because my dad could never remember anything.

He couldn't remember verses or names of people. He used to call his gymnasts, "Hey, Dimples," "Hey, Blondie" because he couldn't remember their name. But I told it to her and I said, "You never heard that before?" and she said, "No." And she’s Catholic and I said, "Catholic people never heard John 3:16?"

And I just remember that. Now, years later, I was in a comedy club and she came up to me with a hat and a wig on. She said, "Vicky, I have cancer, I have breast cancer." And she took off her wig and her hat and she was bald. And I didn’t know I was going to be getting breast cancer a few years later.

But she said, "I just wanted to tell you that your father was the first person who ever told me about Jesus, and I just got saved and all my kids got saved since my diagnosis." And she said, "I want to get in touch with your dad and thank him."

And so I gave her his phone number and me and my dad talked to her and sent her Bible verses about heaven through her last year of life while she was dying. She was only 36 years old. But what an example for a parent to show a child.

Jim Daly: It’s beautiful. And even in the industry that you worked in, what strikes me is people are people. We are all sinners saved by grace for those who claim Christ. But in that context, when your mortality is right in front of you, like with breast cancer or prostate cancer or pancreatic cancer or heart attack, whatever it’s going to be, there is a reckoning. It’s like in your soul you’re going, "Okay, is there more to this life?"

It’s a perfect time to talk to people when they’re thinking about it. Because we go through this life, Vicky, we don't think this is going to end. There’s not going to be a last breath. And that’s most of us. Then you get a little older and now things start happening and you start thinking about is God there? Is Jesus who he said he was? Do you find yourself having more of those kind of conversations with your friend group that aren't believers?

Victoria Jackson: Well, my feeling is that everyone knows they’re going to die, but they kind of think it’s going to be someday and they distract themselves with distractions so they don’t have to think about it. Believers and non-believers, right? We distract ourselves.

And when you get diagnosed with Stage IV terminal breast cancer, which is what I have, it does make death way more real and it does make me bolder to tell the gospel. And it makes people more open to listening to me because they know I’m going to be facing eternity either in heaven or hell soon.

And so I just think this whole cancer thing was a huge blessing that God gave me. He gave me Saturday Night Live for a platform for people to listen to me because I can get in headlines now if they go, "Former SNL cast member dying of breast cancer." I can get in the headlines whereas people who weren't on the show maybe they won't get the headline. But it gives me a platform to tell the gospel and I just notice that unbelievers are more open to listening to me.

Jim Daly: Vicky, with Norm Macdonald, go through that and what happened. Again, a great story about somebody coming to faith from what I’ve heard.

Victoria Jackson: Well, I opened for him a couple times doing stand-up and this one time we were in the dressing room and I think I had just given him a picture of Elvis Presley because I always thought Norm Macdonald looked like Elvis Presley. And it was this cool picture, a very odd one, and I don't know why I gave it to him.

But maybe that’s what prompted him to say this, but he said to me, "How come we never dated?" And I was like, "First of all, I’ve always been married. I was married the first time, then I was single for a week, and then I was married." And secondly, he never asked me out. So I was trying to think fast and I said, "Because you don't go to church."

And I kind of was hoping I was planting a seed, and he went, "Oh, so that’s the deal-breaker." And that was our little moment. Then all of a sudden, I see that he died of cancer. Like, nobody knew he had it, right? And I watched every video when he was near his death and it sounded like he was getting closer to Jesus.

He was talking about Jesus, he was really... I go, "Did he get saved?" So then I was talking to a friend of mine, her name is Sidney Forest, and she’s a singer in LA. And we were talking about Norm and she said, "Oh, I go to Bel Air Presbyterian and Norm Macdonald was watching our weekly show on TV of the sermon, and he called up the pastor of Bel Air Pres and asked him how to be saved, and he said the sinner’s prayer on the phone with the pastor from Bel Air Pres." And I said, "Sidney, for real? That happened for real?" So maybe Norm, we'll see him in heaven.

Jim Daly: Won’t that be interesting? That’s amazing. But what again, a good example of just being present and being a good friend and following up and saying a word here, a word there. It doesn't have to be really complicated. Let me ask you, your first marriage, it ended, and we don't really need to go into that.

But your high school sweetheart you ended up marrying, Paul. That had to be, how did you get reconnected? And I know of one other couple that that is true of, a good friend of mine, him and his wife, they went to the prom together. It was over in high school and then he later got married, she got married, and all that, but her husband died and Jim was divorced and it just all came back together for them in their 60s now. So it happens but it's rare. But tell us about your story.

Victoria Jackson: Well, I tracked him down. I... the man is supposed to be the pursuer, I don't know. What happened was I heard that, well, we were supposed to get married. I had a diamond ring from him when I was 17. And then okay, so I was supposed to get married at 17 to Paul, who I’m married to now, and his dad said we were too young and we weren’t allowed.

So I gave him back the diamond ring. I was mad that I thought he should have disobeyed his father. And so it was unfinished business. And so he married someone else, so I married someone else. And then I heard he was getting divorced and I was getting divorced. And so I called his mom.

My mom suggested it and I said, "I don't know his number," and my mom said, "I have his mother’s number!" So I called his mom and we got reconnected. We’ve been married 33 years.

Jim Daly: So how did dad feel about it at that point? Was he still here?

Victoria Jackson: Well, his dad was a doctor, Dr. Wessel, and I had gotten famous in the 10 years since he’d said I couldn’t marry into the family. So I guess he probably liked that, maybe. But anyway...

Jim Daly: So he was okay with it at that point now that you were older than 17, I guess.

Victoria Jackson: Now that I was older and rich and famous, I was good enough for his son to marry me.

Jim Daly: Well, there you have it. That’s crazy. Hey, let me, I have a clip from your comedy show and I want to play that clip and just ask you a question about it. I think it’s with Paul, your husband, who was he a fireman?

Victoria Jackson: He was a SWAT guy, Metro Dade police, police helicopter guy.

Jim Daly: Okay, so police helicopter. So let’s play this clip and we’ll bounce off of it.

Victoria Jackson (Clip): There's a lot of crime in Miami, that's why Paul likes it there. And we were driving along and the car next to us had these scary-looking guys in it and I said, "Paul, that car has hoodlums in it!" He goes, "Vicky, they can read your lips." I go, "Oh no, they’re going to shoot my brains out!"

He goes, "It takes a marksman to hit that baby." That’s how he flirts with me, it's okay. Like, we were taking this course at church called How Now Shall We Live? by Chuck Colson, and we had to memorize Nietzsche and Nietzsche and Darwin and everything. I go, "Paul, this is so hard, my brain’s going to explode!"

He goes, "If your brain exploded, it would sound like this (fart noise)." He said that! I was like, "Hey, that was good, how do you spell (fart noise)?"

Jim Daly: Well, the truth of the matter is nobody gets to do the things that you’ve been able to do and achieve without being smart, so I know you’re smart. But I get the comedy part of that. So you and Paul have this good back and forth. Is that actually true? Did all of that actually happen?

Victoria Jackson: Yes, because I don't know how to write jokes, so I just write down my real life and throw it up on stage. But yeah, we’ve had a very challenging marriage. It has not been easy, and I like to say that because just because you're Christian and you marry a Christian... see, my first marriage, I married a non-Christian and I disobeyed the verse, "Be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship hath light with darkness?"

And I remember thinking, "I know, God, but I'm taking him to church." Anyway, my first husband did go forward and accept Christ. I'm not sure he understood it all the way. But Paul from high school, he was a believer and I’m a believer, but that doesn’t mean your marriage is going to be perfect or easy. And so we have struggled through 33 years and right now we’re doing pretty good.

Jim Daly: That’s good. Well, listen, you could tell Paul to call Focus on the Family, we’ll help. Seriously, I mean, couples struggle communicating and that’s all part of it. We have a great program called Hope Restored. Get this, about 80% of the couples that go have divorce papers ready, and we have an 81% post-two-year success rate. We go back to those couples, 80% are married and doing well.

And I just think it’s one of the best things happening in the country. So that’s just one of the hidden jewels of Focus on the Family today, and that’s active four-day marriage intensives to help couples communicate better because you’re so right, and I’m glad you’re honest enough to admit it, like you’re not going to church going, "Oh yeah, everything’s great, Paul and I are fine." It’s refreshing to hear "we struggle." So way to go.

Victoria Jackson: Yes. Well, some of my poems in my new book, they are about my broken heart and in my husband, so yeah.

Jim Daly: Well, in fact, one of the things like with loss, your brother, I believe, died during COVID. Is that right? From COVID?

Victoria Jackson: My brother committed suicide during COVID because he got laid off because of COVID cutbacks. He was an architect in LA. And that was his identity. I said, "Jimmy, your identity is in Christ, not in your career. Don't put all your hopes and dreams in your career, put it in Jesus."

And he started a downward spiral. He lost his health insurance, his fiancé left him because he was going to get married for the first time at 60 years old and she left him when he lost his job and he was in bad health, and it spiraled down, down, down. Yeah, that was a very traumatic.

Jim Daly: That’s very hard on a family. I’ve seen it firsthand because my wife, she has two brothers, there’s six kids in the family, two of the brothers also died by suicide. And these were, ironically, this sounds weird, but they were a big SNL family. They used to sit together and watch you on TV during those years, '86 to '92, would have been the years that AJ and Craig, along with Jean, were watching, and the mom and dad watched.

Isn’t it interesting that but that kind of grief, it’s been very, very hard for Jean, my wife, to get through that with two brothers committing suicide. So you know that feeling probably, obviously, better than most people. You’ve shown compassion for others who’ve gone through illness and you just described it with your brother, but you reached out to Johnny Carson, I think, after his heart attack, if I’m reading this correctly.

Johnny Carson, that takes a lot of courage, Victoria. I mean, honestly, because he’s like he was a superstar, he was the guy. And I guess I’d love to hear what gave you that idea and then the courage to be able to do it, and how did he respond?

Victoria Jackson: Well, courage... I would have had courage if I would have talked to him face to face about the gospel. I never really had that chance because whenever I was on his show, I didn’t see him before the show. He liked to save the energy for on air, so we didn't chat backstage. So it didn't take that much courage to send him a Bible.

But I read in the tabloids that he had had a heart attack and I thought, "Hey, I still have the number of his secretary from when I used to be on there." So I called her and I got his address and I sent him a Bible with his name on it and a tract and toys and candy, and then he wrote me back a thank you note and he said, "Thank you for the care package. If it doesn't work, I hold you personally responsible."

I wish I could find that. I had it on my wall, his thank you note, and I moved so many times and I can't find it now. But I got to... what?

Jim Daly: Well, just the faithfulness of doing that. A lot of people, a lot of Christians would wither because these are big people, these are important people. You’re putting your reputation on the line to say, "Hey, have you thought about Jesus? Here’s a Bible." All those things that you’ve done, it’s just so refreshing.

But I know that partly it’s acceptable to them because of how you do it. You’re doing it with an act of goodwill, with good intention, you’re not trying to win something, you’re not trying to battle with them. You’re just saying, "Hey, this is really good. I’ve been a Christian since I was eight, I think you would love to be a Christian too." Is that kind of how you’re thinking about it?

Victoria Jackson: Yes. Well, if you really love them, you tell them. And if you really believe it, you tell everyone. And Penn & Teller, the magic act, Penn & Teller? He... Penn is an atheist and he says that this guy came up and gave him a Bible and told him about Jesus and he said, "I wasn't offended, I was touched in my heart that he would care enough about me to do that."

And there’s a young man now named Dylan, I think it’s Novak, and he calls himself "The Celebrity Evangelist." He’s on Instagram and he goes up to celebrities all over the place and hands them a Bible with their name on it. Now that takes courage! I am so proud of him.

I saw him at the NRB, the National Religious Broadcasters Convention. I said, "Celebrity Evangelist! Celebrity Evangelist!" And so I met him and we know each other now, and every time he goes up to one of my old cast members with a Bible, he tells me and he sends me a picture. He’s doing a great job, we’ve got to support him.

Jim Daly: That’s awesome. Let me ask you as we wind down here, I’ve got a couple of questions for you. One is Bill Maher, that you actually have spent time with Bill Maher. It’s been interesting to see Bill Maher move, and I’ll tell you as a comedian, what caught my attention right as COVID was coming to an end and the whole "woke" thing was being challenged all of a sudden and Bill Maher was part of it.

And I felt, Dave Chappelle and then Bill Maher, a commentator/comedian, he said, "Did anybody see the Gay Pride Parade in New York last week?" I was watching a clip on YouTube, and he said, "Did you notice there are no gay people on the lectern?" And everybody laughed, and I went, "Wow, that’s interesting." And he went on to say they were all trans people there.

What happened to being gay, is that just so normal now? And I thought, a comedian of the left doing that, that’s the beginning of something, and it was. But seeing comedians like Bill Maher and then Dave Chappelle kind of canaries in the cave of woke and they’re telling jokes about it and it seemed to give weight to people being okay saying funny things again or questioning it out loud, which it had gotten to the point where you couldn't do that, you’d be fired.

But I felt like the comedians kind of led the way in that regard. But speak about Bill Maher and your interactions with Bill Maher. He’s interesting to me.

Victoria Jackson: He’s very interesting. Very smart. I wish he would have me on his show. I bet he’s afraid to have me on. I opened for him a lot in stand-up in Vegas and also I was on Politically Incorrect 12 times. And I brought the Bible out one time and I read Ephesians 2:8 and 9 and his audience clapped. I thought they would boo me, they clapped.

So I don’t know, I think I see Bill Maher swaying to the right politically, but I don’t know if he’s leaning towards Jesus, but I would love to witness to him if I got the chance. Maybe that’s why he won't let me on the show!

Jim Daly: No, I mean, again, being on the show 12 times, that’s incredible and we’ve been talking about maybe we can get him on the ReFOCUS podcast, we’ll see. But that connection there, Charlie Kirk, you have a picture, a portrait of him behind you.

And Charlie Kirk, I’ve watched that session, that YouTube piece of Charlie Kirk and Bill Maher going at it, and I thought it was very direct, both of them, but very good, and they seemed to like each other throughout the whole thing. And it’s such a great example of what we need to be as Christians.

Again, straightforward, don't give up truth just to be accepted, but be strong with truth, but you can be winsome, you can be fun, you can kind of jab them a little bit, especially somebody like Bill Maher, he could take it.

Victoria Jackson: Yeah. I think he would appreciate people witnessing to him because he’s a truth-seeker. He is seeking the truth, but he hasn’t found it yet.

Jim Daly: No, that’s really, really good. Well, Victoria, this has been so good and I appreciate it and thank you for the witness that you have been. I was so excited to talk to you. Your daughter was on the Focus on the Family program and she did a wonderful job, Scarlett, and wow, she’s you could be very proud of her as a mom.

Victoria Jackson: Yes, she’s just started a new podcast called Pardon the Mess. So she’s a podcaster.

Jim Daly: Pardon the Mess! That’s good, I like it. Well, that’s great. Tell Paul hello, tell Paul if he wants a little bit of advice just have him give me a call. Not that it’s going to work and I may not have all the right answers but, Vicky, thanks so much for being with us, appreciate it.

Victoria Jackson: Thank you.

Jim Daly: Well, what a fun conversation that was. I really enjoyed it and it was kind of eye-opening with the insights Victoria shared from encounters behind the scenes we typically don't get that view. And I also appreciate her humility. She acknowledged that she hasn’t always gone about everything in the right way.

I think if we’re honest, we can all say that we’ve all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, right? That’s why we need Jesus. But she has done her best to influence others imperfectly for Christ by how she’s lived her life, as we’ve heard today. She’s reminded us that God can use every season of life, even the difficult ones, for his purposes.

Whether she was walking the halls of Saturday Night Live or sending a care package to Johnny Carson or facing a cancer diagnosis herself, Victoria has tried to be faithful with the opportunities that are right in front of her. And that’s really the encouragement for all of us. You don't have to have a stage or a spotlight to make a difference. You simply need to be available, loving, and willing to point people toward the hope we have in Jesus Christ.

Maybe today’s conversation has stirred something in your heart. Maybe there’s someone in your life—a family member, a coworker, a neighbor, a friend—who needs to hear that God loves them, that Christ died for them, and that eternity is real. And I hope Victoria’s story gives you courage to take that next faithful step, not with pressure or argument, but with grace, compassion, and genuine concern.

And if you’re struggling in your faith, your marriage, your family, or simply carrying a heavy burden, we want to be here for you. Contact us here at Focus on the Family at 1-800-A-FAMILY. I’d also like to point you to a simple explanation of what it means to become a believer in Jesus. We have a "Coming Home" article that we will link for you. It’ll share how to follow Jesus just as Victoria has described.

Now for the Inbox segment, here’s a voicemail from Noah.

Noah: Hey, Jim, I was wondering if you have any tips for evangelism, specifically to people who already know about Christianity. I’m thinking of a few people I know who grew up in the church but later they actually kind of walked away from the faith. They’re already familiar with the gospel, so really nothing I tell them is going to be new. It just honestly kind of feels like a dead end. So how do I have conversations with them about Christ when they already know basically everything about Christianity?

Jim Daly: Noah, this can be so hard because it’s almost like preaching to your family and they’re all good people. And you’re going, "I don't know that I need God because I try to do the right things and I’m sure if he weighs it in the balance, I’ll be found good enough." I mean, I have had that conversation too.

But it also comes down to a lack of what I would call convincing or conviction. I mean, I think a person like that maybe just has those lingering doubts that I’m not sure. And I love pointing people to Lee Strobel’s book, The Case for Christ. I even say it this way now: "I’m tired of caring more about your soul than you do. Maybe I can ask you to read this book from a former atheist who tried to disprove his wife’s faith in Christ and was convinced as a journalist that Christ is who he said he was and embraced Christ, became a pastor and a prolific author."

That’s Lee Strobel. And the work is done. Read that book and then let’s talk. That’s one thing I have done. And I think again, it just points to the fact that there is something not clicking for them that needs to be encouraged, and that’s the angle I would use. But thank you so much, Noah, for your question. And because your question was here on the podcast, I’ll send you a copy of my book, ReFOCUS: Living a Life that Reflects God's Heart.

Now if you have a question or comment for me, please send me a voicemail or leave a comment in the contact form. The links are in the show notes and I’d love to hear from you. Also, would you consider helping to fund the work on this listener-supported podcast?

If you’re being encouraged and helped in your spiritual walk through these conversations, please donate so we can keep bringing you interesting guests and topics to impact the culture for Christ. That’s what makes it work. Thanks for listening to ReFOCUS with Jim Daly. Remember to like, listen, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Next time on ReFOCUS, J.D. Greear explores how Christians can faithfully engage a polarized culture and balance faith and politics.

J.D. Greear: I said, "Well, ma’am, if you give me 20 minutes and an open mic and it’s televised, I’m definitely talking about Jesus." And she said, "Oh yeah, I don’t think he’s really that controversial." I said, "Well, I don’t feel like you and I are talking about the same guy."

Jim Daly: That’s coming up on Monday, July 27th, on the next ReFOCUS with Jim Daly.

Guest (Male): Josh experienced a traumatic childhood, and today he wants to help other families thrive.

Guest (Male): I’ve partnered with Focus on the Family for quite some time now because they were instrumental to hope, to help.

Jim Daly: I’m Jim Daly. Let’s transform our nation one family at a time with your monthly pledge at focusonthefamily.com/families.