ReFOCUS with Jim Daly

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James Brown: I don't go around trying to set this up to beat people over the head with a Bible. But we are to share the love of Christ lovingly, truthfully, and winsomely. Our job is to tell it. The receiver's job is to receive it and believe it. One plants a seed, another waters, but God gives the increase.

Jim Daly: That's a familiar voice, James Brown, also known as JB, the host of the NFL show on CBS. I had a heartfelt conversation with him about faith, family, integrity, and his quiet strength of trying to live for Christ in everything he does. Welcome to ReFOCUS with Jim Daly, a podcast production from Focus on the Family.

In this conversation, JB reflects on the powerful influence of his mother, the steady example of his father, and the lessons he learned as the oldest of five children. He also shares how sports shaped his understanding of discipline, leadership, and preparation, and how a disappointing end to his basketball dreams became part of a much deeper spiritual journey.

James points again and again to the truth that success is not merely about achievement, but about faithfulness. You'll hear how he seeks to share Christ lovingly, truthfully, and winsomely, and why he believes every opportunity, every relationship, and every platform is a chance to model the love and integrity of Jesus. Here's my visit with James Brown on ReFOCUS with Jim Daly.

JB, it is so good to have you here with me on ReFOCUS.

James Brown: Finally! It's taken some time. You've been patient, and I certainly appreciate your patience with quite the frenetic schedule. But this is important. Yes, sir.

Jim Daly: You know, I love the fact that you admire the Lord, that your heart is there for the Lord first and foremost. It wasn't always that way, but your mom was a person of faith and conviction, correct?

James Brown: Yes, sir. And because you've done a zillion of these, you help me to keep track. I believe in putting it with headlines: a mother's influence. My mother raised five of us. I say my mother because my father, I call him the Joseph in the Bible. He was the quiet one. He worked two and three jobs to provide for the five of us.

My mother always wanted to stay home to be an excellent homemaker, and she exceeded that desire with the five of us: four boys, one girl. I'm the oldest of five. It was Mom's influence because I recall in elementary school when I was walking to school about three or four blocks away, I would hear a gentleman on the program. I think his name was Jim Eaton. It was a little five-minute sermonette that I would hear that was planted in me at that early age.

But we were not people of faith going to church. Fast forward later in life in a different neighborhood altogether, probably in my teens, my mother was the one who took us to church. That's when we became exposed to the Word of God. So, yes, I am a man of God. After I got cut, I realized I was living an empty life after not realizing my dream of playing professional basketball. You played football, so you know all about it.

I remember coming home one night late and asking the Lord, when I realized that going to all of these so-called happy hours—and there's not much really associated with a happy hour being a happy hour—I said, "Lord, I've heard of you, but I don't know you. If you would reveal yourself to me, I'll serve you."

Jim Daly: Let me ask you in that regard, how old were you when that happened?

James Brown: I was about 23, 24. I had been cut by the Atlanta Hawks. Again, my ball-playing buddies who weren't saved, although we went to Catholic school, I just realized that lifestyle had nothing of substance there.

Jim Daly: I want to come back to that in a moment, but I do want to celebrate moms because my mom was an awesome mom as well. She accepted Christ the day before she died. But her life was good. She was humorous. She worked three jobs. My dad and she divorced when I was five, so she was working two, three jobs just because we are five kids. But I'm at the other end of the birth order. I'm the last born. You're the firstborn. Dr. Kevin Leman talks about that, and I wanted to ask you about that when I was reading through your history and your background. That firstborn, I'm so glad I wasn't one, but you are Mr. Responsible in that position. How did that work with your siblings? What are their ages from you, and then did you assume some of that sense of responsibility?

James Brown: I'm not the best at this, but of the five kids, there was probably a span of about eight years from the oldest, me, to the youngest. Not many years, but to your point, there was a responsibility there because they looked up to me. As you well know, playing sports, there is that added layer from a worldly perspective where they're admiring you and they're watching everything that you do.

Jim Daly: Well, and you're a big guy, 6'5", 200 plus pounds. My brother was firstborn, same position. He also is 6'5", ironically. He played at Nevada Reno, he played football, defensive end. But I always looked up to him. Even in our chaos in our family, he was just a presence, so I always admired him, followed him around. I'm 10 years younger than him, and we have a great relationship today. But like you, he had that persona. So did your brothers and sisters see you as that?

James Brown: They did. Not being saved until age 23, 24, I just wanted to be a good person. But what does that mean? I was still being developed myself at that young age, trying to find my place. But I knew I had the responsibility to set the example for the younger kids. I was the babysitter if Mom had to go out shopping. I was home, they were all watching me.

That was a significant responsibility and I think back through it because fast forward to now, I'm the oldest at age 74 now. My sister was in the middle. We're the last two of five. All of my younger brothers have since passed. But this was with a renewed, saved mindset in the last 15, 20 years, where I tried to make certain that I was imparting the truth of Jesus Christ to them that they would walk in it.

My youngest brother battled the drug demon for 38 years. He was so much younger than me and I didn't realize the lifestyle that he was engaged in because I was so much older, pursuing a different path. But of course, when I came back home and could do that, there was nothing more for me to do than to ensure that he had a relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and he did.

One of the people who played a significant role in his life was Dr. Tony Evans. All of us are flawed, but an excellent man. When my brother was at his seventh drug rehab program at the Salvation Army Adult Rehabilitation Center in Dallas, Texas, leadership there was taking the men to Oak Cliff Fellowship Bible Church. That's where he and Tony Evans hooked up.

Tony Evans said, "You won't really be clean of this until you go to a program that is totally biblically focused." My brother had mastered the art of going through these rehab programs, but returning to the lifestyle. As a matter of fact, when Tony Evans had told him about this program in New Jersey called Keswick, my brother had hidden his drugs for the purpose of coming back to that when he went through the program. So he knew the routine.

But it stuck because the people at Keswick told him the only book—because he wanted to bring Tony Evans' tapes and books and everything else—they said, "No, the only book that you'll be bringing is the Bible." When he came out, he was totally cleaned and healed. Even though he had challenges health-wise from the lifestyle down the stretch of his life, doing an interview with Tony Evans, he wound up having a leg amputated. He had four or five different medical morbidities, yet he said he was free. To know that each of my brothers had a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, I'm pleased.

Jim Daly: So you have one sister.

James Brown: Yes, the smartest in the family. She's the middle. She was a corporate executive. She worked for three Fortune 500, Fortune 100 companies. She was the lead HR person in each of those companies, reporting directly to the president. She's awesome and a steady influence in our family.

Jim Daly: That's great. What a princess. Alicia Brown, princess. I think she's going to like that.

James Brown: I'm going to let her know you said that.

Jim Daly: But back to Mom. The thing that's so great about moms is it's guaranteed, for the most part, they're going to love you no matter what you do. You can be a rascal and Mom loves you. Dads don't always love you. They're kind of the wild cards, and especially in culture today. Certainly my dad was like that. Your dad took him a long time to come to Christ, but he was a good man.

James Brown: Oh, he was the Joseph in the Bible, the quiet one. Mom was the homemaker raising us. She set the mantra in our family that we all have a spirit of excellence and there is no excuse for not applying yourself where the elements of perspiration and inspiration were evident in what we did. That was Mom. She ran a household like that. She was no nonsense, but extremely loving.

I called her the Sergeant, not to her face, but that was the nickname for Mom. At 5'5", whatever her weight was, but she carried a big stick figuratively and literally. My father worked the three jobs to provide for us and you shared something with me in our conversation before we started this. I didn't realize it until maybe 20, 25 years ago when my sister told me that my father had a deathbed conversion. So I am thrilled to see how God continued to display himself to us, the influence. When the priests were performing the last rites, my father confessed Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. So I'm thrilled.

Jim Daly: And it's beautiful to tie that knot of faith within the family. I had a very similar story with my dad's last days. He was volunteering at a church. He struggled with alcoholism and all those things, but my mom held it together and all five of the kids became Christians over about 30 years. So it's a very shared journey we have there. Let me ask you, your grandfather Barnes is an interesting guy. Businessman, entrepreneur. Tell me about him and where he lived and this shows you the cascading effect of generations. Things that your dad or mom learned as a little girl from Grandpa Barnes and then how did that come into the family. Describe Grandpa Barnes.

James Brown: I probably need to do a bit more history searching in our family to connect all the dots, but suffice it to say that on my mother's side of the family, my grandfather Milton Barnes, there is a historical society there in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, where you can see that most people when they think of Hattiesburg, if they're thinking sports, they think of Brett Favre of NFL fame.

I remember doing a prayer breakfast there to speak in Hattiesburg and I called Brett Favre who wasn't a Christian at the time and I said, "Brett, you're the best-known name here. Would you do me the honors of coming and giving the opening prayer at the prayer breakfast there?" He was sweating bullets. He says, "JB, I know nothing about it." I said, "Brett, trust me, buddy." He didn't, but I understand that down the stretch now of his life, he is walking the faith and I'm so extremely thrilled.

But my grandfather, he was the businessman on the other side of the railroad tracks in segregated Hattiesburg, Mississippi. So he only had, I believe it was an eighth grade education, but he had a lot of the businesses there. He built homes on the other side of the tracks for the black families there. He had a night club that was a part of what we know in worldly society. It was part of what they called the Chitterling Circuit with a club called the High Hat Night Club.

All the old black acts that people who are musically inclined: BB King, they were the best of friends. As a matter of fact, when the governor of Mississippi was giving BB King not too long ago a commendation from the governor, my grandfather was still alive. They sent a car to bring him there to celebrate him because my grandfather had him, as they call it in the vernacular, "He played my club when he was coming up the ranks." Ike and Tina Turner, Bobby Blue Bland, Moms Mabley, all those names, James Brown, they all played in the High Hat Night Club.

But my grandfather was also in church on Sundays. Because he was good with numbers, he made certain that everything was financially in order for the church. And he brought Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. there towards the end of his life when he came to Hattiesburg for the purpose of registering the black folks there to vote.

Dr. King was to be heading not much longer after that to Memphis, Tennessee to support the refuse workers, the garbage workers' strike there. When he was coming to Hattiesburg, unfortunately the clan knew that he was coming there, the Ku Klux Klan, and they wanted to do harm to him.

My uncle, my grandfather's son, he drove a decoy vehicle going to pick up Dr. King while the car that was to be picking him up went a different route to get him. They did see a bunch of pickup trucks following the decoy vehicle thinking that they had him. The church service was to be at 8 o'clock that evening. It did not commence until 11 p.m. as the decoy cars and the car driving Dr. King went a circuitous route to get to the church with deacons on top of the roof walking with shotguns, noticing a bunch of cars that were not familiar to the neighborhood riding around looking for Dr. King.

The service, the meeting, started at 11 p.m. and not a soul left. My aunt was one of the ones who was working at the elections office as well. So a little bit of history in terms of that existing in my family. He had a baseball team appropriately called the Hattiesburg Black Sox that all the old Negro Leaguers used to go through there, whether it was Hank Aaron, Jim Mudcat Grant, Satchel Paige. It's amazing how much history is associated with that.

Jim Daly: JB, since we're tipping this way now into the issue of racial tension, we talked off mic, I spent some of elementary school in Compton, California. It was probably a third or maybe a little more, maybe 50% black and the other half was Hispanic and poor white kids which we qualified for. But it gave me a really insight into community, that community.

We always were taught respect. It's just the way it is. We're all in this boat together. In that regard, when you look at what's happening or what has happened, there have been some great gains for the black community in the United States, but there's still so much work to do. How do we come together a little more? What could be done? You have become so successful and it's awesome in what you do as a sportscaster and I just think that's the greatness of the country that both of us coming from where we came from, white and black, can do something quite admirable, hopefully.

James Brown: We can, and I'm so glad that you had that experience early on to see the common thread that we all shared and still do. You and I both know, and I'm not going to try to claim to be the expert sociologist and the like, but Jim Daly, it is the Word of God. I've come to that understanding.

I shared with you how I have many friends in the faith. I'm humbled to be an ordained minister and I'll tell people yes, what I do in terms of my avocation in the world of sports or being a special correspondent for CBS News, that is my avocation. My vocation is about the Word of God.

One of the reasons why amongst the many friends that I have and preachers, teachers of the gospel of Jesus Christ have the same attitude, God's Word supersedes all. Yes, the Bible is clear in terms of what our responsibilities are in a governmental sense, being up under the care of those appointed by God. There's a civil responsibility, a governmental responsibility, but there's also the biblical responsibility which supersedes all if there's ever a conflict.

The bottom line is that which leads me and I know is the answer is the Word of God. I've got a number of friends, those that I do know I should say who aren't believers, but carrying out the Great Commission is not a suggestion. It's not an option. God tells us that's what we're to do. So I try to model that.

I don't go around beating people over the head with the Bible. I try to model it. Many people prefer to see a good sermon before they hear a good sermon. So I try to walk the talk even in my avocation. I don't seek this responsibility because I don't want to come off like I am the pure moral authority in any given environment, but I do try to walk the talk.

The company has approached me on a number of occasions over the years to give commentaries because now the intersection between sports and culture is definite. It's always been, but many people have always tried to keep the two separate. I don't ever see that as having been the case when we look at the history of our country and the kinds of pulls and friction that we see that's there. It's been there for so long.

I just don't want people to run away from it. When they say certain things in our history are too graphic or the like to talk about, there's nothing more graphic than to look at the horrific, ignominious, painful death that our Lord and Savior suffered where his visage was not even recognizable. That's there for us to understand what our Lord sacrificed while we were yet sinners because he loved us.

So yeah, we've got some serious challenges, but if God came here and he did to reconcile us back unto him, the ministry of reconciliation back to God the Father, who are we to run away from those issues? Many people don't want to hear. They call it the separation of church and state. There's no such thing as the separation of church and state. The Word of God is our guide.

I love doing that and I've been humbled to have friends across the spectrum in the faith area. That excites me, but I want to make certain that I'm always standing on the Word of God. You can see me getting excited. People say, "Oh, I can tell when the Holy Spirit is going to grab you." But it's not to preach at you or talk down to you, it's with passion to express the love of our Lord and Savior Jesus.

Jim Daly: Amen. You know, when I watch you, you and Tony Dungy, your good friend and certainly a friend that I've had on the broadcast before, both of you have such impeccable grace toward others. I've learned that from both of you just watching you, being able to treat people with such respect and kindness. It comes through. I would think just about anybody watching you on the NFL show on CBS will go, "He just seems like such a great guy." But thank you for doing that as a believer to be that kind of person, to be kind, to be loving, to be caring.

James Brown: Can I just say thank you for that? Because what I attempt to do is to in a winsome fashion present by the example or in the proper setting and to put a button on the commentaries that I've delivered, whether it was on promotional opportunities for men of color and women in the world of sports. Please, everyone is given a gift, prayerfully those who know the Word, for the benefit of the whole. Ephesians 4:16: every joint supplies for the fervent effectual working of the whole body until we all come into unity of the faith.

That is powerful. But the way I have closed out each of those commentaries, whether it was on promotional opportunities, whether it was women in the C-suite, whether it was on social justice, whether it was on the way that we carry ourselves, all of them have closed with a statement that 1 Corinthians 13:1-8, which we know is the love chapter. Love overcomes all.

Many people will think, "Oh, that's so Pollyanna-ish." But it was modeled by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That is the answer. The most recent one that I gave a couple years ago, one of my bosses came to me and said, "JB, we're looking at such a painful rise of antisemitism and hate in general." Bob Kraft, the owner of the New England Patriots, a good friend, I respect him a lot. We went on a trip to Israel 11 years ago where they wanted many of the athletes, Hall of Famers, I was humbled to be the only correspondent to go there and document this trip to see firsthand what was going on. It was life-changing for me.

But the most recent commentary was on the rise of antisemitism and hate and those who were doubting that the Holocaust ever occurred. I said, "Okay, well, let me pray on it because I don't want to just take a suggestion from leadership if the Lord isn't sanctioning this for me." The Bible does say in the multitude of counsel there is safety, but it's God's Word and will that will prevail.

So I wanted to make certain that what was being posed to me would be something that makes sense that I could speak biblically sound about this. I asked a number of my neighbors who happen to be Jewish. I said, "What do you all think about me speaking on such and such in this environment and climate?" And to a person essentially they just said, "Please do."

And I did. But one of the strongest elements in that commentary that I knew had to be run by the lawyers to make sure we were—come on, JB, talk—to make certain that I wasn't running the risk of something that would bring about a libel suit. But to use a fact: to say that the Holocaust did not occur is the same as telling me that none of my forefathers were lynched. Very strong, very problematic in the minds of many, but very true. Know your history, and our best history is in the Word.

Jim Daly: JB, I want to ask you this question because it's a scripture that you hold all of scripture close to your heart, but there are some that just grab you because of your own life experience. The scripture in Psalms that talks about he's close to the brokenhearted and saves those crushed in spirit. Someone once told me it's like a prerequisite that the Holy Spirit is looking for that brokenness because what that brokenness does for us as human beings is humbles us and it's a lot easier to work with a humble person than an arrogant person. Then you look at the arrogant believer, if I could refer to it that way, that it's competition, it's to win, there's something just off, it isn't quite right. It's always caught my attention, the New Testament. There's two billboards: salvation through Christ and Christ alone and don't become a Pharisee, in my mind. But we have this easy proclivity to fall into looking down on other people. Why is this?

James Brown: Human nature. The heart of man is desperately wicked. Unless we submit ourselves to the Word of God to following the example of Jesus, we too can fall into that same trap. I try to make it daily to study the Word. Even coming here and apologizing for coming through the door a couple minutes late with this wonderful group here, I try to make certain every morning.

The chaplain with the Baltimore Ravens and he's an excellent teacher of the Word was encouraging from ownership down, Steve Bisciotti, a wonderful man, John Harbaugh, the coach of the Ravens. He had them all reading Proverbs, one Proverb a day. And I did. I'm say okay well I've completed that. But no, there's such a hunger for it.

The way we learn more about the Word humbly, I think, is to study and understand and properly exegete God's Word on a daily basis because you've heard the old expression: the more you study God's Word, the more you see in it, and the more you see in it, the more you see in it. Tony Dungy and I have often said, "Wait a minute, we're going back through the book of Revelation again or the book of Galatians. I never saw that!"

As you all ready know, all too well, you and your staff, revelation knowledge. There's so much of God where because often I was wondering how could John say that if I were to write everything that the Lord did in his three, three-and-a-half years, there would not be enough books in the world to encompass it. I'm like, are you kidding me? But when you go through the Word for a seventh, eighth, or ninth time, you understand the depth.

Jim Daly: Let me roll us back a little bit to sports. That's your world. I mean it's not who you are, it's what you do, but it's what you've done for a long time. You were a big-time basketball player, high school champ, and all those things. FCA, Fellowship of Christian Athletes, is how I came to Christ. I had a wonderful football coach who took an interest in me without my mom and dad as an orphan kid at that point in high school living with my brother. But he just loved on me and I will always have a place in my heart for football coaches because there are so many good men that are trying to help these young boys become men.

Paul Morrow did that for me. But in that context, your experience with sports and how there is a mirror there, there's a calling out for these young men to hopefully go for something higher, better, to exceed expectations, to do well. I remember Paul Morrow grabbing my face mask because I was kind of dogging the wind sprints we had to do. We had to do ten 100s, ten 90s. Guys are barfing everywhere, it was grueling. I played quarterback so he came over, grabbed my face, said, "Listen, if you're going to lead this team of mine then you're going to have to finish those wind sprints first. If you're dogging it, others will see that, so you've got to hustle. You've got to set the pace." What a great spiritual application.

James Brown: The impact of a coach on an athlete's life in its fulsome sense is undeniable. Many times you'll hear people when you ask questions about their background, they will often reference clearly the influence of their parents, positive or negative, a pastor, a coach is almost without fail going to be mentioned if they were involved in sports, even if it was recreationally, a doctor.

There are certain professions that make a palpable impact on one's life. That was the case for me which is why I was so blessed to play basketball. You talk about me playing basketball, so if there's a visual aspect of this podcast, despite the size and girth that you might see because I've truly thrown myself into being a football co-host or host, I've tried to become like them. Now I'm trying to get rid of it.

My mother and father set the example. My father with his deathbed conversion most importantly and how he provided for us family as you said working the two and three jobs routinely. My mother, wanting to be the excellent homemaker that she was, and she was, but leading the path. When I don't know whether who was it, was it Jacob who wrestled with the angel? My mother, when she became saved, we had no choice and were glad of it because she led us through that process.

But my high school coach, he had to carry on what my mother and father had set as foundational imprints in our lives. My high school coach Morgan Wootten, one of the finest coaches, Red Auerbach of basketball fame, John Wooden of college basketball fame, Dean Smith, God bless them, they said he was the finest coach on any level.

Here is what the foundation is, long story we'll talk about later, but the synopsis is this. He told us, he was a history teacher, he said, "I am a teacher first. My basketball court is an extension of the classroom. Players playing for me had to have four priorities. Number one was God, number two was family, number three was school, number four was basketball."

Fourth. Jim Daly, we never ever heard him utter a profanity which parenthetically Tony Dungy has that claim to fame because many reporters who've heard Tony talk about that from his various players, they've gone behind him for the last 20 years trying to find a story from some player who's heard Coach Dungy utter a profanity on the football field; they can't find it.

My high school coach never ever uttered a profanity. I said, "Coach, why is that?" He said, "Because quite simply it's toxic. I can relate to them with a level of respect and have it reciprocated. A winner does not need to engage in anything that's profane and contrary to the Word of God."

He went into the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame as the first coach to be inducted who only did his work at the high school level. He was the winningest high school basketball coach in the country. Number two, he then went into the Naismith Foundation Hall of Fame as the greatest high school coach of the 20th century. He never ever uttered a profanity. He always focused and he walked the Word of God without beating us over the head. He was the one who walked the talk. We loved him and he was phenomenally successful as I've just articulated with the awards.

When he was inducted into the Naismith Hall of Fame and I wasn't the best player to come out of DeMatha Catholic High School—and he was there for 46 years coaching that squad—but he had me representing all of his players by being at the induction ceremony. The gentleman who presented him was Red Auerbach. Morgan Wootten was simply phenomenal.

But I'll close with this. So I went to Harvard. We had a great recruiting class. People said we were the second best freshman team in the country because freshmen couldn't play on a varsity team. Going into our sophomore year, we were ranked as either in the top 10 or top 11 impactful teams in the country. Very challenging social and political times during the time, we did not realize the ultimate success that was equivalent with the talent that we brought to the table.

But I was still, Bill Bradley was a hero of mine. When I saw what he did at Princeton, how you could marry academics and athletics, I said, gosh, it can be done. We want to do the same. If there was a letter on my coach's desk from Princeton, I would have tried to get in the school there, but Harvard was the first letter I saw on his desk. Here I've got over 150 athletic scholarships to go to these great schools. My parents certainly could not have afforded it, but they always said, "Get the best education. That's the foundation stone for success in life."

So I said I wanted to go to Harvard, not realizing they were going to have to pay on their meager income and take out loans for me to go to Harvard, but that's what they said and they made it happen and I am forever thankful for that. So when I got drafted by the Atlanta Hawks, I knew I could play. It was a fourth round out of 10, 12 rounds then. But I didn't practice probably—I worked hard—but you can work sincerely wrong in terms of not getting the best input at college. Although I was drafted, when I was the last player cut from the Atlanta Hawks, people were saying, "That guy they kept in place of you, he isn't as good as you."

But I did not go down that path and I wasn't saved then. But I did hear a pastor say, "If you point a finger of blame at somebody else, there are three pointing back at you." When I examined myself, I realized I didn't work properly. You already know this expression: no, practice doesn't make perfect, it's perfect practice that makes perfect. And that's what I set as a mantra for life. I will never allow an opportunity to pass me by because I was ill-prepared. I may be called a workaholic and properly so, but I've always kept a free agent's mentality despite a multiple-year contract in the world of broadcasting. I never ever got complacent again in pursuit of something that I believe the Lord wanted me to do.

Jim Daly: So a lesson learned right there as well. It's amazing because you went to Harvard, like 69 through 73 college.

James Brown: High school in the eighth grade listening to it on radio. Our claim to fame for DeMatha High School was that it was a team that in a rematch against the 7'1" powerhouse player from a Catholic High School in New York, Power Memorial High School, manned by then named Lew Alcindor, aka Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. DeMatha beat Power Memorial in a rematch at Maryland University's Cole Field House. 12,500 people packed into that college gymnasium on a snowy night and beat Lew Alcindor and Power Memorial by one point.

Our principal had told our high school coach Morgan Wootten, "Prepare for that game by"—he was a big tennis player, the principal—"having your center have a tennis racket in the middle, having your players get accustomed to overshooting, over jumping over the top of the man with the wingspan." So they weren't intimidated. That put DeMatha on the map and made Washington, D.C. a necessary stop along the recruiting trail to get the wealth of talent that was in the small area known as the DMV, the District, Maryland, and Virginia.

But it also did something else. It made Kareem Abdul-Jabbar very angry. Angry so much so that when I went to go and interview him when I was working at CBS as a basketball reporter when CBS had the NBA, I get sent to LA to talk with Kareem who was about to break a record of Jerry West, the great NBA Hall of Famer. Kareem was the consummate team player, smart as a whip, very well read. I go in and I didn't play in that game against him when DeMatha beat them in high school, but he reads up on everything.

So I go to interview him and people told me to have plenty of questions ready because he may not answer things exhaustively. So I was prepared with copious notes. When we sat down he looked at me and he said, "What high school did you go to?" I said, "I went to DeMatha." He said, "Oh, you went to that school." Snapped their 71-game win streak. And so I was really feeling intimidated.

My producers in my ear ask him about breaking Jerry West's record. He did not want to talk about individual accolades, he was very team oriented. So he gave me pretty curt answers: two, three, five, six-word answers as long as I continued along that track. When I had done my homework and realized that Robert Stack, the actor, was a hero of his and when he got to play in a movie, I think it was called *Airplane!* where Kareem had a guest appearance in there, I ask him about Robert Stack being his hero. Big smile came on his face. He was expansive in his answers. It didn't take a mental giant to realize I'm like, "He's answering the question!" So I said, "Let me stick with that for a bit and I'll get back around to Jerry West."

But the moment my producer said, "JB, you've got to get back to Jerry West," and I did, and he went back to three, four, five-word answers. I learned a lesson there to respect the fact that he was team oriented, he wasn't focused on the right now, he was thinking win the game, be a team-oriented guy. Those things would come down the road.

Jim Daly: How was that experience at Harvard for you in 69? There was a lot going on in the world: Vietnam.

James Brown: It was a challenge and it was new stuff because after the race riots of 1968, many schools then said, "Okay, let's put a little bit of effort into going into the cities and recruiting students that we know can do the work there." And so that's what that reflected. 1,600 students in the freshman class, fully 400, one quarter of the student population in the freshman class, were African American.

When I get up on campus, I'm excited about it. I was not the best standardized test-taker, but as my mom had inculcated in us, there's nothing that beats hard work and perspiration. So that's what I was thinking. Even though folks are saying many of these privileged students may have gone to the best prep schools and Harvard is like a sabbatical for them, you work and do that. That was the attitude that I had.

But when I went up to my dormitory in the Harvard Yard, it was Grays Hall. Under the door, and the people probably weren't aware of the ethnic makeup in that room, was an underground newsletter that said Harvard has lowered its academic standards to bring in these athletes and if they graduate, they will graduate at the bottom of the class. It crushed me.

But as an athlete as you can relate, you still are determined, you don't just wimp out on those things. My parents were sending me there to get a good education because they all wanted us to do better in the game of life than they did, and I would say they were excellent at what they did for all the right reasons. So it only provided inspiration but it made me aware of the environment that we were going into that many thought we shouldn't be there.

There were offspring of some very famous people who happened to be people of color. Even Dave Robeson, the grandson of Paul Robeson, brilliant academic, great actor, writer, a real Renaissance man. I'm happy to say that the overwhelming majority of that graduating class went on to do great things in life across the professional spectrum, showing that we did maximize the opportunity there.

But there were many people—my roommate actually, my suitemate, we had quads that were connected together by one door—was the great intellectual Dr. Cornel West, who is a man of faith. He was brilliant. He was a member of Mensa. We would go to take tests and I don't even know if it was chemistry class, but there was one class that I unfortunately was in with him. The average score on whatever class that was might have been like a 65 or 75. Cornel West got a 100 and we were mad as the dickens at him. But those are the kind of students that were there.

Jim Daly: You know, last year we do survey work every year for the listeners and thankfully we have millions of people that listen to Focus on the Family and watch CBS NFL. I think you have a few more. But the point of this is when we do the survey work, last year 179,000 people said Focus was the organization that helped lead me to the Lord. So I think in the last few minutes here, JB, as we talk about it, I love your sympathy that we're only human. You've said that a couple times, that we're sinners saved by grace. Sometimes we lose that especially in the Christian community and we put a lot of expectations on our children because we've been walking with the Lord for 10, 15, 20 years and then we expect our children to be right there with us. But they've got to walk their journey as well. In that regard when you look at even your story about your daughter and tough decisions that were being made then, speak to that parenting situation because I think there are going to be people hearing you and watching you now that it will help them to consider Christ as their Savior and to make wise decisions then so that 30, 40 years from that point you can rest, that your soul is at peace because right things were decided. Speak to your daughter's situation.

James Brown: In terms of my daughter's situation, I had her out of wedlock. I remember a gentleman at the University of Michigan who was an associate athletic director who made such a distinct and lifelong impact on all of the great athletes who were there, including Tom Brady, Desmond Howard, etc. He was a believer who had a definitive impact on all of those athletes, helping to prepare them for the game of life.

I'm not sure how much he may have been impacting them with the Word, but I know when I thought about my daughter and when I think about my daughter, and again, I had her out of wedlock with my high school sweetheart who I thought I was going to marry. I was not saved and certainly in my mind I would not have objected if she said that she wasn't going to have the child if we weren't going to get married.

I went back and asked her not too long ago why did you not have an abortion? She simply said—and does it get any clearer and more impactful than this—her words, not mine: "I did not want to kill my child." I had no other questions from there.

While I am humbled to have been asked to speak on a number of different platforms and to preach the Word of God which I love, our friend Greg Oliver had extended invitations where people who run pregnancy centers were asking if I would come and talk to the women who were there trying to encourage them to keep the baby. I understand this is a political hot potato and that many people stay away from this.

The truth of the matter is based on what my ex said and how she viewed it, and the beautiful 43-year-old daughter that I have now who's married to a wonderful Christian man with four beautiful Christian kids who are all in Christian school, I know that I know. With respect to those invitations, while I can certainly give a male's perspective, I ask my daughter to go with me.

One of the reasons was because of a father-daughter show that we did on television where the host asked me if I would bring my daughter knowing that she was a child out of wedlock who I supported 1000%, have and always will. Even being married, my role is a secondary one because when two get married in the Bible, they become one. So I play an augmenting role and love what I'm doing with my grandkids.

I asked her to come on this TV show with me and this was live. The host asked her—I wasn't prepared for this myself, I was trying to prepare my daughter—he asked her, "What was it like growing up in a family where your father wasn't there knowing that you were had out of wedlock?" I looked to see what she was going to say.

She simply said, "My father has always loved me. He never spoke one ill word. He supported me and her to the nth degree until I got married. I have nothing but love for my father and how he honored and loved and loves my mother."

Jim Daly, you know me well enough to know I don't go around trying to—I said this earlier—beat people over the head with a Bible, but we are to share the love of Christ lovingly, truthfully, and winsomely. If I understand the Word correctly and I know you do, so please correct me where it says our job is to tell it. The receiver's job is to receive it and believe it. One plants a seed, another waters, but God gives the increase.

So for me with my grandkids, where it says a good man provides for his children's children, I still have that responsibility until the day that the Good Lord calls me home. I hope that people, I respect whatever decision other people want to make, that's their life decision to make. Please just respect where I'm coming from. I don't go around castigating anybody, beating them over the head, bringing doom and gloom on them. I simply present the truth.

It's a choice that all of us have to make. Deuteronomy 30:19 is pretty clear with that where God is speaking through Moses when he says, "I present before you this day, I call heaven and earth to record or record this day your choice. I present to you life or death, blessings and cursings." He gives us the answer to the test when he says, "Choose life." It's a choice that we make. God doesn't condemn; we condemn ourselves. I pray that people will just receive the wonderful, loving intent that is being shared. But it's all of us who have a choice to make.

Jim Daly: And I think what it demonstrates is the attitude that we should be full of as Christians is the attitude that we were forgiven much, that we know we're forgiven much, that we're not perfect people and Christ died for our sins. So why would you hold somebody else to a different standard, including your child?

Some of the best stories I've heard at Focus are in this area where Christian families, going to church on Sunday, their 17-year-old daughter gets pregnant and now it's a catastrophe and they've got to deal with it. But I think when it comes to life, and I know you share this, God doesn't make mistakes. Your daughter is not a mistake. Think of her life and the grandkids and somehow God shapes all of that into good. Like Romans 8:28 says, all things work for good. Are you serious? But in that moment, the dads are furious, the moms are bewildered, what do we do? It's not what we're aiming for, of course not. We want what's best. But God will take your mess and make it better, make it his mess, and that's what we want.

JB, before we get away, I do want to hear that story of how you came to Christ because we didn't capture that yet. What was it? Obviously you had your daughter out of wedlock you mentioned. How long after did you come to Christ? What started you in a faith trajectory?

James Brown: In as succinct a fashion as I can, after being cut by the Atlanta Hawks, and I did get a chance the following year when Red Auerbach, God bless him, asked me to come to try out for the Boston Celtics and I was again the last person cut. So I knew that I was going to go and pursue a career, although Red Auerbach wanted me to go overseas to polish my game a little bit and come back and play in the NBA.

I said no, my parents worked hard for me to take advantage of this opportunity. Let's go start in the game of life. But while I was home sulking the first year after being cut by the Atlanta Hawks, hiding in the house for two weeks away from my friends who were like, "JB didn't make it in the NBA, you're kidding me?" examining as I shared with you the reasons why, and when I examined my own heart, I realized what I didn't do and the life mantra, work ethic that I have.

Whereas in corporate America they give you principles to follow to be successful in corporate America, for me they have to have a foundation in scripture. In scripture when I examine myself, 2 Corinthians 13:5 says to examine yourself to make certain you're walking in the faith. I wasn't there at that point clearly when I was asking Jesus into my life. I'm tooling in my little Corvette coming home late one night after the night club, a lifestyle for those several months of going to the night club and realizing that was not the answer.

It was late at night and I simply asked the Lord. I said, "I know of you, but I don't know you. If you will reveal yourself to me, I will serve you." But check this out: the very next week I get an invitation from some of my buddies, ex-athletes, to go to yet another house party, a pajama party. I'm 24 years of age. A pajama party? But I go.

The moment I walk through the door, I realize clearly I don't belong here. Conviction. When I was heading home after the pajama party, I said, "I am so sorry. I feel like I've committed high treason just last week asking you to reveal yourself to me, and what do I do? I go to a pajama party. Certainly isn't honoring of you."

That began effectively a 12-year search with my mother leading the five of us through the church route to finally be settled into a good word-teaching church headed by an ex-Tuskegee Airman by the name of Bishop Clarence Givens, who taught the Word of God. I went to many a sermon where it was emotional, got me shouting, but after I left out of church if somebody asked me what was the sermon about I couldn't tell you. I just said it was emotional, it was good.

Bishop Givens taught the Word of God and everyone who was up under his tutelage for the years that he was ministering has the same testimony to make. That's where I came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and gave my life to Christ, committed myself to the walk with him, trained up under Bishop Givens, became a director, co-director with my wife Dorothy of the youth ministry. My wife Dorothy is another whole story. That's a whole story there who grasped the Word quicker, more deeply and committed than me, and your boy is now a well-trained husband. But that led me down a path that I'm on and have continued on since.

Jim Daly: Totally beautiful. What I love is people can complicate their spiritual journey, their faith in Christ, but the way you describe that pajama party, it was like the Holy Spirit was already present in your heart. It was happening, and that was that conviction that you had because you could have done that a month before you went to the party and been driving home in your 'Vette and not think twice, maybe a little pain but okay, I'll try to do less of that or something. But to stop and listen to the inner speaking that is there in every one of us and when we talk about this, look, I can give a great, I think, presentation on hopefully following the model of what apologetics is all about to try to answer questions for people. There are those who are way smarter than me that can talk me under the table, but I'm not trying to convince you using an academic argument. This is a deeply spiritual come-to-Jesus moment where you have to answer in your own inner heart: is this correct? Is this true? Is there a God? The God. If you ask the question and become familiar with the territory known as faith in Jesus Christ—and we've got so many great apologists that you know, whether it's Alex McFarland, so many, Lee Strobel, his story *The Case for Christ* is something that I reference in a number of my messages—then just answer the question truthfully yourself because it is an eternal decision. And here's the deal. When you understand that there's no such thing as death as many people think where it's the cessation of life, try the Bible's definition of death. Our spirit and souls will live on eternally. The physical body may die but as the Word describes, those of us who are believers will be reunited with the spirit and soul. But eternality is either in heaven with the Lord or as the Bible describes death, it is eternity without Jesus. It is simple as that. People may call it hogwash, but I would certainly say do some deep, deep studying and be honest with yourself because the decision is an eternal one. Many people have acutely but painfully described it this way: the choice is either eternity in heaven with Jesus or in smoking with the person or the spirit you don't want to be with. Perhaps just with no presence of God's character. Somebody described that will probably be hell, that there's no love, no kindness, just no presence of God in that place, eternally, just torment.

Jim Daly: JB, this has been so good. Thank you for the time, thank you for being with us, thank you for the perspective that you brought. I love it. This was all about the Lord. I wasn't sure how we would aim this; I think the Lord knew and he used it and will use it according to his purposes. So thank you again, thank you for your witness, for your example. You're flying in some high air there on television through the football season and it's just awesome to see how God is using you, and I'm sure using you in all kinds of friendships to talk with people about him.

James Brown: Can I say thank you to you and the patience for this has been a long time coming. I've been looking forward to it. I don't envy the material that Scott's got to trim down. That's for sure. Well, thank you.

Jim Daly: What a powerful reminder from James Brown that a life of influence is not measured simply by success, visibility, or achievement, but by faithfulness to Christ. Whether he was talking about the steady love of his mother, the quiet sacrifice of his father, the responsibility he carried as the oldest child, or the lessons he learned through sports, JB kept pointing us back to the same foundation: God's Word, God's grace, and God's call to live with integrity.

I was especially struck by his desire to share Christ without pressure or condemnation, but lovingly, truthfully, and winsomely. That's a challenge for all of us, to model the gospel in our homes, in our work, and in the everyday conversations that God gives us. Maybe you're thinking about your own family, your own disappointments, or even your own need to know Christ personally. JB's story reminds us that God can use every part of our journey to draw us closer to him and encourage others along the way.

If you'd like to learn more about a relationship with Jesus Christ, I encourage you to read our free online booklet called *Coming Home*. It tells you how to begin a journey with Jesus Christ and the link is in the show notes. Also, if you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to check out our free Sports and Faith audio collection with other inspiring interviews from Kirk Cousins, Bernhard Langer, John Smoltz, and many others.

Everything we do here at Focus on the Family is to help you grow closer to Christ and to encourage you and your family. So if you can support the work, I want to invite you to make a monthly gift or a one-time gift to help us do this ministry. Thank you in advance so very much. Now for the Inbox segment. Here's a voicemail from Darren.

Guest (Male): Hi Jim, I've got a question about what it means to live for Jesus. One of my friends said we should live in a way that everyone knows we're Christian because we shouldn't act like the rest of the world. I get what he's saying, but to me it just sounds like legalism. Aren't we supposed to focus on God instead of what other people think? And is it possible to live for Christ without comparing ourselves to how unbelievers live?

Jim Daly: Darren, you're asking possibly the most critical question of the Christian walk, and that is how do we be separate from the world but be in the world? Paul writes about that, encouraging us certainly not to fall to the prey of the world's inducements, but to live faithfully with Christ.

I think personally the Lord gives us this life to enjoy, and if we have joy suckers in our life we need to be careful of that. The Lord wants us to be loving and to be loved and to have friendship, and in all of that we learn disappointment, we learn sacrifice, we learn the things that he wants us to learn through those relationships.

But I think the most critical thing is being in the fruit of the Spirit. The Lord wrote it down for us in Galatians 5:22 and those are the things that we should be known for: joy and love and peace and patience. These are critical attributes of the believer. It doesn't mean we can't have fun with our friends and be there, but just be mindful to not go into worldly direction. Sexually, do not drink too much, those are things that are right there for us to plainly read in scripture. So have fun, be faithful to Christ, talk to people about the Lord, but I think you can do that in a context that is winsome.

So thank you, Darren, for that great question. Because we used it here on the podcast, I want to send you a copy of my book, *ReFOCUS: Living a Life That Reflects God's Heart*, as our way of saying thank you. If you have a question or comment for me, please send me a voicemail or leave a comment in the contact form. The links are in the show notes.

I'd love to hear from you and I want to know what you thought of this discussion with James Brown. Thanks for listening to ReFOCUS with Jim Daly. Remember to like, listen, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Next time on ReFOCUS, Bob and Wendy Griffith share an inspiring story of how they and other friends in their church impacted a community by supporting the foster care system in a big way.

Guest (Female): The Lord opened doors for me to advocate for children to find permanency quicker, and he did things that only God can do. And because it's close to the heart of God, it's in scripture. And so I think that was a huge reward for me personally to feel like I'm making kingdom impact not only in the life of the children in my home, but in our community.

Jim Daly: That's coming up on the next ReFOCUS with Jim Daly.

Pastors, if you're struggling to help couples in your church whose marriage is in trouble, we can help. Marriage 911 by Focus on the Family trains laypeople to mentor married couples. Each kit includes two training guides, four workbooks, and all the training necessary to meet with couples who need help. Go to marriage911.com. That's marriage, the numbers 911, dot com.