ReFOCUS with Jim Daly

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Senator Tim Scott: At the end of the day, what I've learned is that for those who disagree with me vehemently, when I show them respect and I have metal as my backbone, they don't always walk away liking or agreeing with me, but they know there's something different. And they know that the difference goes beyond me. They just don't know where. And we both know where it goes. It goes to heaven.

Jim Daly: That's Senator Tim Scott talking about the need to engage our fellow Americans in a Christ-like way, even when we disagree. This is ReFOCUS with Jim Daly, a podcast production from Focus on the Family.

Senator Scott has been a friend for a number of years and has been a strong champion of family values and deep Christian faith, which I appreciate. He is not simply a Senator of the United States; he's first and foremost a believer in Christ. It's refreshing to spend time with him when I head to DC.

As we approach our 250th anniversary in America, this is a moment worth pausing for to reflect on what has truly sustained us through success and trials in this country. From the very beginning, Christian faith has played a central role in shaping America's vision and changing the course of history.

In this conversation, Senator Scott will share that we're at a crossroads in a deeply divided country, often talking past one another and sometimes forgetting those shared values that once brought us together. But Tim Scott is also very optimistic and hopeful. That's his nature. We'll discuss how we as Christians can choose courage over cynicism, gratitude over grievance, and truth spoken with grace instead of anger.

In the political arena, that's a hard one to do, but it's doable. Tim has captured some great American stories in his latest book, *One Nation Always Under God: Profiles in Christian Courage*. In our conversation, we'll talk about the greatness of America, the challenges we're facing right now, and the role faith has played across generations, including Tim's own powerful family story.

Senator Scott, it is so good to have you back at Focus on the Family, even though it's virtual, here at ReFOCUS as well. Thanks for being with me.

Senator Tim Scott: Well, thank you, Jim. It's good to be with you. I certainly love sitting next to you in wonderful Colorado Springs and enjoying time together, but as iron sharpens iron, we'll have to do it over this distance.

Jim Daly: What people need to know is the first time we met, it was at Reagan Airport. We sat and had a bite to eat together along with my colleague, Tim Goeglein, who worked in the Bush administration. I remember when you left, I just said to Tim, "That is the greatest guy. He's just a regular guy doing incredible things." It seems to me the Lord has an anointing on you since you were a child.

Senator Tim Scott: I certainly am thankful for a praying mother. We look at the book of Timothy and we see his grandmother and his mother, Eunice and Lois. For me, it was my grandmother, Lawanda, and my mother, Frances, who sowed seeds very early in my existence.

God always honors the prayers of those who go before us. As a result of that, I have been a man and, at that point, a boy who understood the importance of church. Now, church is not being a Christian, but it is a good foundation to start from. Around age 11, I first walked down the aisle of Morris Street Baptist Church in Charleston and gave my life to Christ. It wasn't until I was 18, seven years later, that I understood Lord and Savior.

As a guy who has done it fairly inconsistently for a long time, the older I get, the more I appreciate the sovereign hand of God on my life. I was writing about that this morning in my prayer journal. Without my permission, God has done the most remarkable things that I thought impossible. God has made them possible, including getting married, becoming a Senator, and living my mother's American dream. It's amazing what God will do if you give Him permission to really take over your life.

Jim Daly: We keep taking it back. That's the problem with us. Let me ask you a question. Just a few weeks ago, I was in Charleston. I haven't spent a lot of time there, but we have a great donor base in that community. We had dinner at a donor's home; it was beautiful.

As we were headed back out toward the airport, I went in front of the historic building where the slave trade began on Market Street. I snapped a couple of pictures of it. What a monumental location. This is where the first slaves were sold as slaves, as I understand it. They've preserved the building and you can take a tour of that in Charleston.

That aims right at the core point that any institution of man is imperfect. But when you look at where America has come over these last 250 years, you are evidence, my friend, of a country that is improving. You're part of that great improvement. The fact that minority folks can rise and be Senators and governors and president. I may not agree with all of the policies, but that was a proud day. I was proud of my country when we elected the first black president. Speak to it from your unique vantage point.

Senator Tim Scott: I am living my mother's American dream in so many ways, and my grandfather's as well. My story is a story of cotton to Congress. It starts back in my youngest memories of the Deep South being a segregated place where we had the KKK walking through the streets of Charleston. When my brother was in high school and I was in the eighth grade, there was a race riot at my high school. Four years later, I was elected student government president.

One of the things that I find to be remarkable about the story of America is that Martin Luther King Jr. got it right: the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice. We are probably the poster child of justice as a nation. All across the world, people stop and wonder what makes America so unique. How does a kid born in the Deep South in the 1960s become the congressman for the city where the Civil War started and a United States Senator?

The answer is simple: it's the grace of God and the evolution of the Southern heart. It is on display everywhere you are willing to look. God's infinite wisdom is deposited in the hearts and minds of men and women. When we respond to His call, the most remarkable things happen.

We look back at our founding fathers, and when they wrote these words, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" and endowed by a Creator with unalienable rights, that proposition is rare on the earth. When we live up to our highest ideal as Christians and as Americans, we find that our compass points towards true north.

We don't become colorblind because God did not intend that to be so. But we understand that every single human has inherent value because they come from God. When we treat each other that way, even a guy like me gets elected to the United States Senate because people in my community decided to judge me not on the color of my skin, but on the content of my character. That character was framed through a Southern experience where people from different communities and different walks of life came together to help me understand the value of prayer, understand that faith without works is dead, and to apply God's way instead of my way. It humbled me after it broke me, and then God rebuilt me.

Jim Daly: That's the redemption story. I had a great conversation with Shelby Steele, an academic historian and a black man. He was saying to me that the way that we need to look at this is that there was a 3,000-year-old industry called slavery. The Ottoman Empire was really the chief of the slave trade traditionally. They led the number of people enslaved.

When you look at it as an isolated thing that the US did, that's not accurate. It was a global way of the economy running. That doesn't justify any of it, but this is what they were living in in the 1700s. The founding fathers created a document, and Shelby said, "I believe they knew someday it would come to pass that all men—not just white men—all men are created equal."

It took only 70 or 80 years for Abraham Lincoln to show up. They created a document in the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and the Bill of Rights to be able to allow for a monumental shift in a culture. That's why we're celebrating the 250th anniversary of this great country.

Senator Tim Scott: There's no doubt that when you look back at the history of this country, one of the things you find very quickly are godly men, by and large, struggling with reality all around them. Many of us find ourselves lacking the courage to do the right thing because it is so popular to do the wrong thing. That doesn't go away, whether it's a racial issue, whether you're a teenager in high school trying to figure out how not to respond to peer pressure, or whether you are a member of the elected bodies trying to figure out what you should do. There's always going to be a moment of inflection where we're asking ourselves, "How do I do the right that I know I should do?" It is easier to write it than to live it.

I am thankful that I live in a country where we had to struggle to get it right. But once we got it right, we have to make sure that we keep it right. What I mean by that is that one of the things that we're seeing manifest today around the country is this notion that you can have multiple major purposes under one umbrella. That's not going to work for a company, it doesn't work for a family, and it certainly won't work for our nation.

That's why being tethered to our founding documents, which are undergirded by the gospel of Jesus Christ, is so important for America's future. For us to have another 250 years, we can celebrate the diversity of our country, but we have to have everybody focused on one culture of foundation. In America, that is a Judeo-Christian ethos that permeates through the soil conditions of our country that tells us our true north.

If we get that wrong through the wrong understanding of multiple cultures in the same place, we could destroy the greatest country on the planet. I am suggesting that we have to wrestle with the vision and the purpose of this nation right now in this moment before we find ourselves embracing the idea that you can have competing doctrines and still be one nation under God. It won't work that way. We have to have one true north. Our founders got it right, even sometimes though they lived it wrong.

Jim Daly: The founders said this republic is only suitable for a religious people. It speaks to your point there: we need to know what is true. I think that's one of the greatest dilemmas we're in right now. Family members—I'm talking to a Senator, so here's the grassroots feedback—it's like when we talk to family members, we're in two different universes. We can't even agree on what is true. Is it true that a boy is a boy and a girl is a girl? It's become so bizarre that we don't even have that basis any longer that we had just 10 or 15 years ago. In that context, it's hard to mend some of these deep debates because we aren't looking at the same star.

Senator Tim Scott: John Adams talked about how we will not survive if we are not a moral and religious people. John 8:31, as well as 32, says you have to abide in the truth, and once you've abided in the truth, it will set you free. The abide part is where you wrestle over whether it's my will or is it His will. Anytime you tell mankind that I have a truth, you have a truth, so therefore we have a truth, well, that ain't the truth. There is one truth.

If you don't understand that there's only one single truth, you will entertain people whose intentions are good. Maybe they are, maybe they're not, but that doesn't give you your own truth. You may have your experience, but you don't get your own truth.

One of the goals we should have as a nation, especially for 250 more continuous years of God's amazing grace on this nation, is to embrace the reality that there's only one truth. It is embedded in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Embedded in the soul of this nation is the Judeo-Christian ethos that is our truth. Anyone and everyone that comes against that reality, they are working against what it means to be an American. It is that simple. When you immigrate to this country, if you're not willing to assimilate to what it means to be an American based on our founding fathers and their amended documents, then you misunderstand what it means to be an American.

We do embrace diversity from around the world, with the exception that you're coming here to be more like us, not to change us. That is such an important part of the equation that we are going to have to wrestle with in real time for the next decade-plus.

Jim Daly: It's so true. The sooner we can get on that highway, the highway of True North, the better off we're going to be. I want to cover some of the great stories you captured in your book, *One Nation Always Under God*. One of those stories was Samuel Davies. Let's go to him. Colonial period. Who was he and what did he do?

Senator Tim Scott: Samuel Davies was a fantastic preacher who understood the profound impact that the gospel of Jesus Christ had on his life, was having in America, and wanted to continue to see it expand. One of the reasons why I included his story in the book is I want to make sure that our reference point begins and ends with the gospel. It doesn't begin or end with my experience in South Carolina or your experience today living in Colorado. It only starts and finishes with the gospel.

When we understand that, we should be able to compare notes against what we're experiencing and what the gospel says is true. When that happens as a nation, we stay on the right course. This is where I think we get in trouble: we're all going to sin and fall short. That's just a fact. That's why we have Jesus as our Savior. But when you start calling wrong right, I think you bring about something that is akin to the judgment that we do not want to see. We have to be very careful not to say, "Because I did it and it felt good, it must be right." That is wrong. We know the definition of right because our founding fathers, through the grace of God, wrote it well because it was written based on what is right.

That's going to be my consistent message as we go through the pages of the book. All of the characters had to fight and struggle, sometimes with themselves, sometimes with the world they were living in, to get it right. That's why I think it's helpful for America today so that we can struggle with ourselves and what's around us to bring glory and honor to the Lord and preserve this nation.

Jim Daly: Dorothea Dix is another character that you highlighted. Tell us about her and her story.

Senator Tim Scott: Dorothea Dix was someone committed to those who were suffering from mental health issues. She felt the burden and the responsibility to travel this country to look at and witness insane asylums, as they were called back in the day, mental health facilities.

If you think back through recent history, the last 40 or 50 years, we've shuttered so many hospitals for the mentally unstable that we have done a disservice. We put those folks in jail as opposed to more humane treatment through hospitals that were developed for them. Dorothea Dix, in her time, actually fought for the expansion and the humane treatment of those who were in facilities. She understood that because we have intrinsic value, how we treat the least of these—Matthew 25—we will be responsible for that before our King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. I love her story because it's a story of sacrifice, being educated, and taking action.

Jim Daly: Part of that action story of hers—she was alive during Abraham Lincoln's presidency—is the fascinating insight that she helped derail a potential assassination attempt. Tell that story. That's remarkable.

Senator Tim Scott: Once again, here's a woman who is charged with a responsibility, given a gift from God, who is able to sniff out through associates a plot to kill the president. She, through the help of a lot of other folks, was able to sniff it out and to help him avoid what would have been an assassination.

Jim Daly: Think about that. That could have changed—would have changed—the course of history. His presidency would have been shorter, maybe not even been able to sign the Emancipation Proclamation. That's a big deal.

Senator Tim Scott: Powerful story. It once again reinforces an important point. Very much like Jeremiah 1:5 tells us that before Jeremiah was in his mother's womb, he was already called to be a prophet. Timing is so important in life. Sometimes I don't understand the Good Lord's infinite wisdom, but what I do understand is that certain people rise at the right time.

It's happened time and time again in America specifically. Certain men and women rise at the right time. Abraham Lincoln rose at the right time and his life was preserved by Dorothea Dix and others. He was able to finish the course, finishing the 13th Amendment. Because of that, he finished his work. Without his steady hand, I'm not sure what the country would look like and how our integrity would have been protected other than President Abraham Lincoln doing what frankly no one else could have accomplished at that time.

Jim Daly: Your book obviously is filled with these great stories. I was doing a commentary just yesterday, and Kenny Chapman found a couple of incredible stories. One was Kesha Thomas. I think she was at a political rally in the 80s and a guy with Nazi tattoos showed up. Men began to beat him and kick him to the ground. She, a black woman, jumped on top of this guy and said, "Stop it. No one is beaten into kindness."

Years later, that Nazi guy's son contacted her to say, "Thank you. You broke the bonds of hatred in our family." Wow. That would fit in your book.

Senator Tim Scott: That's a whole new book. Thank you very much. I love it.

Jim Daly: But isn't that a great story of how to change attitudes, which is the bigger theme of what you're talking about. How do we change, especially we Christians, how do we change attitudes? It's not by belligerence. Senator Scott, you're in the toughest job in the world. People are in your face all the time that don't agree with your point of view and they are trying to make you angry. How do you deal with that?

Senator Tim Scott: Thank God for the Word of God and thank God for really good friends. Number one, the Word of God, Ephesians 4:15, reminds me to speak the truth in love. Those two ingredients are very important; they're both active ingredients. When we activate them, we are going to be infinitely better off.

Number two, my good friend, the former congressman Trey Gowdy, has told me a thousand times: it is hard to insult someone into changing their minds. What I take from that is it's my responsibility. I've been asked very tough questions, especially as a pro-life Christian who happens to be in public office, on how do you allow your faith to guide you. My answer was: you should thank God Almighty I let my faith guide me and not just my own natural instincts.

We are spiritual beings. You cannot force me into changing my mind, but you can woo me or, as Jesus did through the grace of God, love me into changing my minds. Not by giving me false flattery or false pretense, but by sharing the truth in a piercing, convicting, not condemning way. We see that play out over and over again in the gospel, whether it's the woman caught in adultery or the Samaritan.

The love is present, but so is the truth. I often look at the "Hall of Fame" in Hebrews 11 and to see Rahab in the Hall of Fame just reminds me that the way He judges is not exactly how we judge here on this planet. Leave room for Him to do what He does best and then follow His lead.

Jim Daly: I've often asked myself, being in that moment when we die—and by the way, everybody's going to experience this—you're going to be present in front of the Father. I'm thinking to myself, does He say to me, or do I say to Him, "I loved as best as I can" or "I tried to hold people accountable as best as I can"? I think the Lord's going to be very pleased that I exhibited love for other people, especially people that hated me because of Him. The scripture talks about that. What is it if you love those who love you? Sinners do that. Love those who hate you; pray for those who persecute you because when you do that, it's the very character of God in you that's acting.

But our flesh gets in the way, Senator. Every time I go to DC, I want to straighten that place out.

Senator Tim Scott: I don't blame you. I hope you come back more often because we need some straightening out. I find myself struggling at times with my way versus His way. His way is typically more patient, more disciplined, but also very clear. My way is sometimes rambunctious, very emotional, and sometimes not clear—clear on who I serve. It's really important for me to get that right.

Here in Washington, one of the challenges that we will always face is that there will be crowds and crowds of people who stand in opposition of the right thing. Why, I don't know. It is going to happen; it has been the course of history. At the end of the day, what I've learned is that for those who disagree with me vehemently, when I show them respect and I have metal as my backbone, they don't always walk away liking or agreeing with me, but they know there's something different. And they know that the difference goes beyond me. They just don't know where. We both know where it goes: it goes to heaven, to the presence of the Holy Spirit speaking through us and giving us the restraint and the discipline that we do not see often enough in modern society. If we're going to return our nation to a biblical standard, we're going to have to do it one person at a time and sometimes one interaction at a time.

Jesus took 12 and changed the world. I think he can take 535 of us and get us on our knees and pray Second Chronicles 7:14 and change the world.

Jim Daly: That's exciting. Is there hope that God will again show an awakening for this country so more people—not just in a political context, but in a spiritual context—could have someone like Schumer, the minority leader in the Senate, have an awakening? That would be my desire, and I know it's God's heart that that man would say, "I believe." How do we get there?

Senator Tim Scott: I think we are on the verge of seeing a great explosion and hopefully revival that sweeps the country, not just in Washington. We're seeing it on college campuses, which I think is very difficult to understand and appreciate. Young people are so often the folks that we point to and say, "We can't wait for them to grow up and they'll know better and they'll do better."

The truth of the matter is, on many college campuses—I'm thinking about Ohio State and their football team—they were literally having revival on the campus led by some of the most powerful forces on a college campus, which are football players. When you see that happening, you know that there's a great awakening happening around the country. We've seen that across the country on college campuses.

We've also seen the fact that God is working here in DC. I attend a Bible study where we have Republicans and Democrats actually opening the Word of God and studying the Word. There's only about eight of us that come to that Bible study, but I understand there are dozens of Bible studies across DC where not just legislators but their staff are actually involved and engaged in knowing Jesus better and then putting him to work. The good news is I'm never going to bring Jesus down to the political level, but I'm always going to try to bring myself and my colleagues to his level.

That is my responsibility as a Christian in public service: to show people the light. Don't compromise by saying maybe they're right when they're inconsistent with the gospel of Jesus Christ, but I should be open to them telling me that there might be something that I'm doing that is inconsistent with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Then if we know it enough, we can open it and see what it really says. That kind of opportunity is available and expanding here in Washington. I pray that His kingdom would come and that His will would be done here in DC, across this country, and around the world.

Jim Daly: Senator Scott, I could not put it any better and I'm so grateful for our time together. Thank you for what you represent beyond our friendship. It inspires me to know people are there in DC that are doing the Lord's work. God bless you, God bless your family.

Senator Tim Scott: Thank you very much, Jim. If you haven't gotten your copy of *One Nation Always Under God*, get your copy. You'll love America even a little bit more. I am so thankful that I've been listening to Focus on the Family on the radio for more than 30 years. I'm so thankful that when that transition happened several years ago, that you were chosen by the Lord and by James to take over the helm there. You've done a beautiful job. May the Lord our God continue to bless you in ways that go beyond your imagination.

Jim Daly: That means a lot to me. Thank you so much. God bless you and God bless the Senate as you endeavor to lead.

I so love Senator Scott's positive outlook on our future, but we have work to do. If you think back in our country's history, we have always had work to do. Why? Because we're human and humans are imperfect. This country and the globe will always have work to do to become better. Ordinary believers like you and me who choose prayer, gratitude, and action can make a difference in the future of America. I think Senator Scott's history lesson for us indicates that.

Revival doesn't begin in Washington; it begins in our own hearts. We can acknowledge our problems without denying our progress and we can face today's crossroads without losing hope. As scripture tells us, "Let us not grow weary in doing good, for in due season we will reap if we do not give up."

Be sure to ask us for Senator Scott's wonderful book, *One Nation Always Under God: Profiles in Christian Courage*. These many stories will inspire you and your children to appreciate the role of faith in the American story. We'll link to the book in the episode notes. And with a gift of any amount to ReFOCUS, we'll send you a copy of the book as our way of saying thank you for supporting the ministry.

For the Inbox segment today, here's a voicemail from James.

James: Hey, Jim. I just wanted to thank you for the great podcast conversations you're having. I always find them insightful and encouraging. Keep up the good work.

Jim Daly: Well, from one James to another, let me say thank you for that comment. Because I shared it on the podcast, I'm going to send you a copy of my book, *ReFOCUS: Living a Life that Reflects God’s Heart*. If you have a question or comment for me, please send me a voicemail or leave a comment in the contact form. Let me know what you thought about this conversation with Senator Scott. The links are in the show notes and I'd love to hear from you.

Thanks for listening to ReFOCUS with Jim Daly. You can also help us inspire and equip more people by telling your friends. Also like, listen, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Next time on ReFOCUS, David and Jason Benham, who had their HGTV show canceled because of their stand for Christ, will inspire you to live bold and broken in the culture.

Guest (Male): Boldness apart from brokenness makes a bully. But brokenness, or being broken over your sin, being humble, but not bold makes you a bystander. But when you are both bold and broken, you can become a bridge.

Jim Daly: That's coming up on Monday, April 20, on the next ReFOCUS with Jim Daly.

Live your truth. A lot of people say that, don't they? But truth isn't something we decide. God has decided it for us and it's our job as believers to share His truth with a world in need. I'll encourage you to do that through my podcast, ReFOCUS with Jim Daly. I visit with fascinating guests about important topics like gender confusion, cancel culture, and more, while helping you share God's love with others. Listen at refocuswithjimdaly.com.