Proclaiming Justice with Laurie Cardoza Moore

Pastor Dumisani Washington: Candace, Tucker, and Nick Fuentes are all names that are well known by people who are in this space, whether they are defending Israel or defending the American founding. But specifically, where the church is concerned, what I attribute to this increase—I think I saw a stat from the Jerusalem Center for Foreign Affairs out there in Jerusalem—just published a stat that said about 43 percent of young Republicans are being swayed. Their attitudes are changing. We've seen those types of things.

I think where the church is concerned, we have a combination or intersection of not-sound biblical teaching for a while now in the body, and these false blood libels and all this antisemitism. The reason why what the Tuckers and the others are doing is gaining traction among some is because of the lack of the word of God. They often attack, as Tucker was just in Israel yesterday interviewing another Christian from the Holy Land. It's always an exclusively Palestinian Arab. It's never an Israeli citizen who's Christian, whether they are Arab or non-Arab.

The blood libel continues—what Israel is doing to Christians. Not only is it a lie about Israel persecuting Christians, but as we said, Christians are being killed by the thousands in places like Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Nigeria, and Iran. Tucker's not bringing awareness to that. But to a young generation of Christians, he's introducing the concept of Christian persecution, which is as old as the church, to them only in the context of what quote-unquote Israel is doing.

The reason why it's gaining traction is because this goes back to us as pastors, as the body. There has not been enough sound biblical teaching, especially teaching where it was on Israel, whether it's on the persecuted church, what the word of God says about what our obligations are. That vacuum is being filled by the foolishness coming from these podcasters and these journalists who are claiming to speak in the name of Christianity. That's a double problem that we're having in the body.

There hasn't been enough word of God taught, and there are these people who have all these clicks and likes and followers who are speaking nonsense. The word of God says when the enemy comes in like a flood, he will raise a standard against him. If there's no standard to be raised, if someone can be deceived about biblical matters only if they don't know the Scriptures. The enemy himself tried to trick Jesus. He's in the wilderness, and here comes the enemy attempting to tempt Him. When Jesus responds, He responds in the Torah. He responds with the word.

Satan knows what's in the Scripture, but he doesn't have an intimate relationship with God. He doesn't have an intimate knowledge of Scripture. So Jesus is responding to him with the Scripture. "Command these stones to be made bread." Jesus says from Torah, "Man shall not live by bread alone." Why? Because Jesus knows the word. Of course, the word of God says He is the word. The word was made flesh and dwelt among us. We are supposed to know the word enough that when someone like a Tucker comes along and says, "Why are you supporting Israel? Israel is bad. Bibi Netanyahu is bad."

The command to bless the children of Israel has nothing to do with an individual Jewish person, whether you like or dislike Bibi Netanyahu has nothing to do with Genesis 12:3. But if you don't know that, you'll go, "Gee, Tucker has a point." No, he doesn't have a point. He only has a point if you're not aware of the word of God.

Laurie Cardoza Moore: Welcome to Proclaiming Justice, a podcast from PJTN that focuses the light of truth on vital issues in today's headlines that impact every American. I'm your host, Laurie Cardoza Moore, founder and president of Proclaiming Justice to the Nations. I'm here to educate, motivate, and activate you to action. I want to arm you with the truth and the facts you'll need to fight and preserve our constitutional republic and uphold the Judeo-Christian values our nation was founded upon.

Guest (Male): Ladies and gentlemen, again, we have another great dynamic interview. Dumisani Washington. Dumisani is a pastor. He is a man of conviction and faith. He stands on the word of God, and I know a lot of people in our audience are familiar with Dumisani. We're here today to talk about what's happening with Christian influencers. Those of you who are following PJTN know what has been going on with Tucker and Candace. We have this new Carry Bohler who has stepped onto the scene that is pushing a lie.

They're actually bearing false witness. They're violating the ninth commandment, bearing false witness against our brother Judah. We are told in the prophet Isaiah in the last days, God's going to bring Judah and Ephraim back together. He's going to remove the vexing and remove the false accusations, and we're going to unite together to wage war against the enemies of Israel and the enemies of the West. We are in a war of biblical proportions, and very few leaders are willing to speak out and say what needs to be said. He is a watchman on the wall. He is helping to rebuild that wall in Jerusalem, starting with the Christian community.

So, Dumisani, it's so good to have you. This is my first official interview with you. What an honor that we were able to bring this together to make this happen. So you know what's happening. We see the Christian influencers who are rising up, communicating their faith in Jesus Christ, "Christ is king." This is our position, and they're falsely accusing Israel of violating laws. Like Candace Owens, accusing Israel of killing Christian children and even having the audacity to say they are using their blood to make matzos, reciting medieval lies and disinformation, all under the guise of Christianity. It seems to be an exploding movement. What do you attribute all of this to?

Pastor Dumisani Washington: I think it's a perfect storm. So you mentioned Candace, Tucker, Nick Fuentes, and all down the line. The names are known by people who are in the space, whether they're defending Israel or defending American founding and everything. They're aware of that now, specifically the church. But what I attribute to this increase—I think I saw a stat from the Jerusalem Center for Foreign Affairs out there in Jerusalem. They just published a stat that said like 43 percent of young Republicans are being swayed. Their attitudes are changing. We've seen those types of things.

I think where the church is concerned, we have a combination or intersection of not-sound biblical teaching for a while now in the body, and these false blood libels and all this antisemitism. I think that what the Tuckers and the others are doing, the reason why it's gaining traction among some, is because of the lack of the word of God. So now they all often attack, as you know, like Tucker was just in Israel yesterday interviewing another Christian from the Holy Land. It's always an exclusively Palestinian Arab. It's never an Israeli citizen who's Christian, whether they're Arab or non-Arab.

The blood libel continues—what Israel is doing to Christians. Not only is it a lie about Israel persecuting Christians, but as we said, Christians are being killed by the thousands in places like Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Nigeria, Iran, on and on. Tucker's not bringing awareness to that. But to a young generation of Christians, he's introducing the concept of Christian persecution, which is as old as the church, to them only in the context of what quote-unquote Israel is doing. The reason why it's gaining traction is because this goes back to us as pastors, as the body.

There has not been enough sound biblical teaching, especially teaching where it was on Israel, whether it's on the persecuted church, what the word of God says about what our obligations are. That vacuum is being filled by the foolishness coming from these podcasters and these journalists who are claiming to speak in the name of Christianity. I think that's a double problem that we're having in the body. There hasn't been enough word of God taught, and there are these people who have all these clicks and likes and followers who are speaking nonsense.

The word of God says when the enemy comes in like a flood, He'll raise a standard against him. If there's no standard to be raised, you know it, you're a person of the word. You know that someone can be deceived about biblical matters only if they don't know the Scriptures. The enemy himself tried to trick Jesus. He's in the wilderness, and here comes the enemy attempting to tempt Him. When Jesus responds, He responds in the Torah. He responds with the word because the enemy, of course, Satan knows what's in the Scripture, but he doesn't have an intimate relationship with God.

He doesn't have an intimate knowledge of Scripture. So Jesus is responding to him with the Scripture. "Command these stones to be made bread." Jesus says from Torah, "Man shall not live by bread alone." Why? Because Jesus knows the word. Of course, the word of God says He is the word. The word was with God and the word was flesh and dwelt among us. We are supposed to know the word enough that when someone like a Tucker comes along and says, "Why are you supporting Israel? Israel is bad. Bibi Netanyahu is bad."

The command to bless the children of Israel has nothing to do with an individual Jewish person, whether you like or dislike Bibi Netanyahu has nothing to do with Genesis 12:3. But if you don't know that, you'll go, "Gee, Tucker has a point." No, he doesn't have a point. He only has a point if you're not aware of the word of God.

Guest (Male): You came onto the scene on this issue a couple of years ago. Being a pastor and pastoring congregations, what is it that caused you to get involved in this? To speak up? Because you are one of the most foremost pastors, Christian leaders, who is speaking up with clarity, moral clarity, biblical clarity, historical clarity.

Pastor Dumisani Washington: Well, I shouldn't be. Unfortunately, that's not a good thing. There should be more saying what they're saying. So my Israel call, if you will, started back in 2012. The short version of the story is that I'd always been a Zionist. I'd loved Israel for as long as I could remember. I also had a passion for Africa. I had been praying for the persecuted church in Africa since the 1990s, which I tell people long before I was doing Israel advocacy, I was advocating for the persecuted church.

This is why when the Tuckers came along, having been intimately involved in this thing for the last 30 years, it was easier for me to see the flaws in what they were saying because I knew they weren't concerned about what was really going on in those places. So when I was at the Western Wall, I'm sure you have your own testimony. I'm praying there. It was Hanukkah 2012. I'm part of the African-American pastors' tour with Christians United for Israel. I served with CUFI later on, but I wasn't on staff at the time. Dr. Michael Stephens was the African-American outreach coordinator. He was our guide.

We get there, I go to the Western Wall. I'm overwhelmed by just the presence of God. I've never been there, but it's so heavy on me. I can't even go to the wall. I'm in the back area, just watching. It wasn't until the next day, the next morning, I get up, I'm an early morning person. I get in the cab, I go down to the Western Wall. It was there God just met me. Short version of the story is I came away with a desire to strengthen the tie between Israel and Africa, the Black and Jewish communities. I didn't know how I was going to do it. It didn't really make sense to me, but we know that when God gives you something in your heart, it doesn't really make sense. You just have a desire to do it.

As I told our church, you know it's probably God because you have no idea how you're going to do it. What He's saying is huge, you're tiny. So you're saying, okay, how do I do this? How do I make this happen? So we started the Institute for Black Solidarity with Israel later on that summer in 2013. The more I did the work, traveling the country, speaking in churches, speaking in synagogues, speaking in colleges and universities, the less I was able to be the pulpit pastor. So I planted our church, the Congregation of Zion, in Stockton in 2004. My wife and I, our family, moved from California to North Carolina in 2020, some 16 years after.

The congregation is still there and we are still serving as overseers as it were. But we are on the road so much. I just came back from Ethiopia. I would have been home, but our good friend Laurie called. She said, "I'll be there with you." Thank you. We appreciate your voice. So for us, it started then, back in 2012, and it has only increased now. I'm always in a triangle of travel between Israel, Africa, and the United States, speaking with African leaders, speaking with Black American leaders about the biblical mandate.

We talk a lot about Africa's relationship with Israel that goes back thousands of years. We say the first Israel-Africa summit was when the Queen of Sheba visited Solomon in Jerusalem 3,000 years ago. So when we talk about the deep, deep ties that are there and why there is so much warfare around it right now, there's no place on the planet where Christians are being persecuted more than Africa. Nigeria is the most dangerous place in the world to be a Christian. Again, 6,000 to 7,000 Christians per year are being killed and that number is going up.

The reason I mention that in this context is that they recognize that Boko Haram and the Fulani herdsmen are the same as Hamas and Al-Shabaab. I call them different jerseys, same league. This jihadist mentality that's killing Jews in Israel, killing Christians in Nigeria, killing Jews, Christians, and Alawites in Syria—it's the same mentality. So we are rallying those pastors, those leaders, letting them know not only is it our biblical mandate to stand with Israel, but Israel is the safest place for Christians, which is another reason why what Tucker's doing is such a blasphemous lie.

Not only is it not true that Israel's persecuting Christians, that's where Christians are free and actually growing in number. So he's slandering the Jewish state. While the Jewish state—I tell many of my Christian friends—they're doing more to protect Christians than many Christians are in the United States. This has to be known, and if nothing else, our younger generation needs to understand both the biblical part of what Israel is and also the very practical and religious part. Israel is our friend as Christians. Netanyahu, a few weeks ago, was telling the leaders that he met with in Florida, he made a commitment. Here's tiny Israel, the Jewish state of Israel. He says to evangelical leaders, "Our commitment as Israelis is to stand with and help the persecuted church wherever we can."

I'm sitting there talking with my colleagues, "Do you hear this? This is an Israeli Jewish Prime Minister who's making a commitment to stand with the Christians who are the number one persecuted religion in the world." I said, once again, that should shame every Christian pastor in the United States or anywhere else who's not at least speaking out on behalf of our brothers and sisters. Our Jewish friends are doing it, unfortunately, even more so than we are.

Guest (Male): We're reminded in Ezekiel about the watchman. We know that the role of the watchman is to alarm, to watch, to stand their watch during their appointed time. If they see an enemy advancing, they had better sound the alarm and warn the inhabitants of the city so they can prepare. But if the watchman, who is supposed to be standing guard, sounding the alarm, fails to do his job, and any innocent blood is shed, it will be required of him. What would you say to our audience? We are now in a place where we have no choice but to be a watchman. What would you say to our audience about the role that we have to play at this critical hour? Because, yes, Bibi recognizes that not only is there antisemitism on the rise, but Christian persecution, and the two are combined. There's a reason why Jews and Christians, why Israel and America, are being targeted.

Pastor Dumisani Washington: A few months ago, I was hosted by Bishop Paul Lanier, who was up until recently on the board of the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, a dear friend. The scripture God placed on my heart was Revelation 12. Revelation 12, as you know, is the vision where John the Apostle sees a vision of three entities: a woman with 12 stars around her head, a crown—that's Israel; a dragon that represents Satan; and the woman is bearing a child who is the Messiah. Because we know that the Messiah comes through Israel. If it wasn't for Israel, our Messiah would not have come. He's the Lion of the tribe of Judah. This is what God—He preserves Israel to save the world.

What it says is that when the dragon was unsuccessful in destroying the woman and the child, he was in the heavens and they were cast down. As Jesus said, "I beheld Satan fall as lightning from heaven." And it says that that dragon then continued to pursue the woman, which for all the replacement theologians, please tell me why is the enemy still pursuing Israel if God is done with Israel? Answer: God's not done with Israel. Exactly. Great point. He's still trying to destroy her. So the enemy is Hezbollah, Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, you name it. It's the same enemy trying to destroy Israel, but as you said, but also the church.

The number one persecuted ethnicity is Jewish in the world. The number one persecuted religion is Christian. The Bible says that's the case. The Bible says these things are part and parcel, they're connected. So to your point, the watchman on the wall, we are to warn. We are to speak truth. We are to say, "Hey, here's danger." It says in Proverbs, "The wise man seeth an evil afar off and he hides himself." Not meaning he's afraid, he sees it coming and then he prepares for it. The fool just runs into it.

Laurie, you and I and whether they're pulpit pastors or leaders within the body of Christ, we are supposed to say something. We are supposed to speak when we see what's going on because if we don't, the Bible literally says that when the calamity strikes, you and I are guilty. Blood on our hands. He says it there in the prophets, both in Zechariah, but he also says it to Ezekiel. "Man of God, I've told you to tell them and to warn them." Now He said, "If the righteous turns from his unrighteousness," in other words, he's a good guy but he's slipping, "if you cause him to turn, then you've saved him, his blood is not on your hands. But if you don't warn him, I'm going to deal with him and you."

So for me, it's just you don't have to be the smartest person in the room to add one and one and make two. If I see the evil, if I see our compromising in our government, regardless of the side of the aisle, if I hear our leaders talk about, for example, antisemitism and Israel hatred on our college campuses, but you and I both know that the number one culprit in terms of money is Qatar. But Qatar is being placated and made excuses for, I'm supposed to speak out, you're supposed to speak out.

Whether it's Barack Obama or Joe Biden or Donald Trump, whoever it is, here's the problem. If these entities like Turkey and Saudi Arabia are funding the Israel hatred, the America hatred on our campus, but we won't call that out, but we act like we're going to deal with it. Let's go ahead and get in some trouble. When the Trump administration came in, Leo Terrell is the antisemitism czar doing a great job, nothing negative. One of the things they talked about, the priority was antisemitism on the college campuses, especially after October 7th, the encampments and the violence.

So I'm watching the hearings and I'm very skeptical. People get upset, "Pastor Dumisani always negative." I said, "No, I'm concerned. I've seen this dog and pony show before. But let me be patient." So they're talking and what began to happen was, "We're going to yank the student visas of all the foreign students who are causing problems." I get that, no problem. You're a guest in this country, you'd better act like it or we're going to send you home. But the problem isn't just the students. It's not just Students for Justice in Palestine. They are connected to terrorist organizations who are receiving billions of dollars a year including from our tax dollars, including from Qatar, including from Turkey.

If you're not going to deal with the source—I say it like this—it's like arresting the hitman who just performed a hit somewhere but not the mob boss who hired him. So then the hitman goes, he does his dirty deed, the cops come, here come the feds and they have this big old press conference, "Oh, we got the guy." But the kingpin who lives downtown, who hired the man to perform the hit, we're going to leave him alone. That's actually making it worse. You're sending a message to everybody that you're afraid of the kingpin and that he's in control.

So if you're Qatar and you're watching America talk about antisemitism on the college campuses but they're not calling you out, you feel really good about yourself right now. "Oh, this student, that student." And I say this last thing, I'm a pastor, I can talk. Even if you yank student visas from foreign students, what about the students born and raised in America who are also burning American flags? Who are also saying, "Free, free Palestine" and attacking Jewish students? Where are you going to ship them? "Oh, we'll kick them out of the school." All you have is a long queue of a bunch of other students because they're being indoctrinated K through 12. Qatar has flooded our K through 12 education. So you're not dealing with the root of the problem. You're dealing with the cosmetics of the problem. Our job, watchman on the wall, is to call that out.

If you and I know that the real problem is not being dealt with, it doesn't behoove us to sit there and play along like, "Oh, that's so great. What a wonderful thing." No, we appreciate the fact that you're calling attention to what's going on on the campus, but could you please deal with the root of the problem? Otherwise, we get what we get now. Just look now, are the campuses better or worse? Have they gotten any better? No. Are they still harassing Jewish students? Yes. Are these professors still preaching "Free, free Palestine" and not teaching objective truth? Absolutely. Nothing has changed because they know that the root of the problem has not been dealt with.

Guest (Male): You hit the nail on the head. We have that problem within the political circles right now. But even, for example, the Heritage Foundation. We have a lack of moral clarity within our conservative movement. The Heritage Foundation, which is one of the most premier, prestigious conservative organizations, well respected, and the leader basically legitimizes Tucker by allowing him to be part of the Heritage Foundation. "He's a good friend of the conservative movement." Everybody turns a blind eye to Tucker. How can we, as conservatives or Christians, how do we sit by and allow someone—we called on him when I stepped down. I called on his removal. There were other leaders, I believe there was 12 leaders total who ended up stepping down as well. People that have been embedded in the Heritage Foundation for years, well-respected people. But we turn a blind eye. We're silent. Just as you said, we're silent to what is going on. We won't speak up and condemn. And yeah, you know what? Nobody wants to hear this. This is not an easy message. "Oh, what are we going to do?" No, we're going to keep him on. He says, "I'm going to fix the problem." Well, how can he fix the problem when he doesn't, like his staff said, Amy said, not only does he not know what time it is, he isn't able to tell the time.

Pastor Dumisani Washington: So the way you couch the question just now is key. There's conservative and then there's Christian. Conservatism is built on biblical principles, it is. Love of family, family being the bedrock of the entire society; small government—the Torah is never about big government—"Jesus was a socialist." Absolutely not. God's construction of charity in the Torah has nothing to do with government taxing other people to give to other people. You are supposed to give to the poor as something that God says of your own wealth. You are not beat down and that type of thing. So I can go on and on about that.

Here's the thing. What's happening right now in the West, but particularly in the United States, we are seeing what was always going to be coming. There are those who consider themselves conservatives or right-wing or whatever, and they thought that that was the same thing as being a Christian. You and I both know that's not true. So what's happening is that there's a divisiveness. The word of God, it says about itself, is quick and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the soul of the spirit, the joint and the marrow. Meaning that once God's word is introduced, all the flimflam and the games being played, it separates. It pierces my heart and it separates my thoughts and my intents. In other words, what I'm doing and the reason why I'm doing it.

So again, what's happening, those then who are being pulled into the antisemitism and Israel hatred on the right, who don't understand the word of God. Not just the biblical mandate to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, but you cannot see based on the word of God. Meaning that when deception is coming, when someone like an anti-Israel person on the right says that he condemns Israel by pointing to a Jewish person and saying, "See that Jewish person, how are they the chosen?" I let me say this to the Christians who are listening. I've said this before on other podcasts, but I'll say this now. You have to understand that the grace that we were afforded as Christians is the grace that God has, the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

For me to point to a Jewish man or woman and say, "They are doing X, Y, and Z, therefore they're no longer Jewish." What's to keep someone pointing to me and saying, "Dumisani messed up in these areas, he's no longer Christian. He no longer belongs to God." It's the same thing. Just like I don't get to take someone's Jewishness and their chosenness, no one gets to come to me and says, based on X, Y, and Z, you're no longer Christian. That's for God.

It's amazing for the antisemite Christian who then points to a Jewish person, even if he believes they're doing something wrong, and then says that somehow they're no longer of God, the promises of God no longer apply to them. The same thing is true for you. If that's how the game gets played, if God gets to change His mind about who His chosen is, that means if we are washed in the blood of the Lamb and He gets tired of us one day—I'm in church, everybody raise your hand if you know that God's ever been tired of you one day. You know if God's been tired of you, you've been tired of yourself. You look at yourself in the mirror and go, "You know what? Can we get ourselves together, please?"

Just like God did not remove His grace from you, He didn't remove His love from you, you don't get to sit there and tell God what He does and does not do with Israel, who's the apple of His eye. If Christians understand the word in that context, then when the Candace Owenses and the Tucker Carlsons go blah-blah-blah, all this other—I love dogs, I love dogs. Not as much as some of the folks out there, but I love dogs. I don't like toy dogs very much. For those of you who have them, don't—I don't dislike them, it's just not my favorite. I like big dogs, German Shepherds, Rottweilers. But here's the thing. All dogs are cool.

Notice everyone, the one who barks the most is the tiny one. He's always trying to flex his muscles. He can't fight, but he's always barking. That Rottweiler doesn't say nothing. But you mess with him. Tucker Carlson and Candace are Chihuahuas, yapping dogs. Always running their mouths, have no idea what they're talking about, always running their mouths. The only people influenced by them are the people who don't know the word, who cannot stand on biblical truth. That's what's going on right now.

Guest (Male): Why, oh brother, point out the speck in your brother's eye when you've got a plank in your own? This is what Jesus tells us in the Scriptures. So if you know the word, then you recognize that you don't get to do that. Then when you go back and you look at all the promises of God—that Israel is Mine forever, Jerusalem is Mine forever, I've chosen My covenant with Abraham is forever. God doesn't play games when He says forever, He means forever. That way someone can't play that game with you and go, "Well, I didn't think about what, the US Liberty?" Are you kidding? First of all, they're lying about what happened with that. But secondly, even if they were true, even if they were telling the truth, what does that have to do with God's eternal covenant with Israel?

Pastor Dumisani Washington: Now, what's happening in social media and the news? Jeffrey Epstein, Ehud Barak—there's some very ugly, nasty things that are coming out. Ehud Barak, former Prime Minister—and I'm not adjudicating that right now. I don't want people to think I'm getting into the weeds. What I'm saying is that here you have people in Israel and around the world talking about these files and all this type of thing. The antisemites are going, "See, those are Jews," and going, "Right. So Bill Clinton's not a Jew, he was in the thing."

This has nothing to do with who is Jewish and who's not Jewish. This is about righteousness and unrighteousness, yes. But it has nothing to do with God's promises with Israel. This is what is shaking some in the body. They don't recognize the difference about what's biblical truth and what's somebody's propaganda. They're being pulled like the word of God, "tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine." They're being tossed to and fro. The Scofield Bible is why there's Zionism. This has nothing to do with Scofield, nothing to do with that study Bible. Zionism is a biblical concept. God has called the nations to pray for Israel from the time of the writing of Psalms when they say, "Pray for the peace of Jerusalem." He's talking to the world, not just to the Jews. "For Zion's sake, I will not keep silent." This has nothing to do with somebody's version of a Scripture, but if you don't know that, then you listen to that whole hour-long podcast and go, "Gee, Candace is smart." No, Candace is not smart.

Guest (Male): Zion, you bring up the issue of Zion. What comes to my mind is God said He was going to write His name in that city, on that mountain. If you look at Jerusalem from a satellite and you look at the topography, it creates the Shin. There's three mountain ridges and there's two valleys. The Shin, the name of God. Is that amazing? And only in the modern age of a satellite could we see what has always been there. We just didn't see it for centuries before. One of the names is Beulah, and Beulah means married. God said, "I've married—God calls Israel His bride."

Pastor Dumisani Washington: When the church says, "We're the bride of Christ," you're the bride of Christ because you've been grafted into Israel. He didn't make up that term for the church. That term was for Israel. But when the blood of the Lamb was shed and He grafted us in, then we became the bride. So they say, "Well, we need to remove Israel, the church, from its Jewish roots." Then you remove us from being the bride. Do you understand all that Jerusalem stuff? Our residency is the New Jerusalem. They say that it's in the Jewish teaching, the mystical teaching, that there are three things that are bound together: God, the Torah, and Israel. Forever bound. They are so bound together that once you try to remove one from the other, everything falls apart. When you remove God from Torah, God says, "I've exalted My word above My name."

He actually says, "I'm so associated with My name, I am the same as My name." So the word is My name. And when it says Israel, it's called "Struggle with God." His name is in the very name of Israel. So when you're trying to remove God or remove Israel or remove Torah, those who don't understand that come against the Jews, come against Israel, come against the land, line up with BDS, line up with Hamas. 48 hours after October 7th, they are protesting on our campuses here for Hamas. Not only has their war not started because Israel hasn't responded yet, there's still Hamas terrorists still in Israeli villages. They're still in apartment buildings before Israel could even respond. Our colleges and universities are spitting on the Jews. They're coming against the Jews. And that from that mentality, here come the Tuckers, here come the Candaces, "Oh, Israel's killing Christians." This is—I sound like a broken record but I have to say it again. It's not that they're so slick and smart, Tucker and the rest of them. It's that there's too many in the body who don't know the word, so they're being pulled into this. That's our danger.

So you mentioned Heritage Foundation, TPUSA—same thing. Tucker Carlson is still a prominent speaker, featured, he's still up on stage. I had to remove myself from TPUSA, I removed myself from your mailing list, yes. I'm not telling other people to do it, I did it. Why? Because one of the things I got tired of is seeing Tucker Carlson write to me asking for money for TPUSA. Here he is, not just coming against Israel—you know this—he's shilling for Sharia law. He's making a case for it as a Christian. He's not talking about Torah or the word of God. He's not talking about the history of Christianity and its relationship with Islam. He's just promoting it and talking about what a peaceful religion it is and it's a great place to live because you can drive your Lamborghini or your Maserati and you can park it in front of a building, leave the keys in the car, nobody steals it.

The places where people are still being enslaved, women are still suffering genital mutilation in these Arab countries—none of those things. But Sharia law's a good thing. So when people are telling me—I had a couple of these debates—"Oh, Pastor Dumisani, Charlie Kirk was about debate. He was about different viewpoints." I said, "I get that and I appreciate that about Charlie. But this is not a debate." I said, "Tucker's not just bringing a different viewpoint, he's lying."

Us having different points of view is a natural thing. We're not going to always agree on everything. But when you say that Sharia is good, when you say that Israel is the one persecuting Christians while you're ignoring the persecuted Christians, that's a bold-faced lie. So we're not talking about nuanced positions now. We're talking about TPUSA, the premier conservative organization that rallies young conservative support. You are placing—someone said to me too, "Dumisani, we have to know. Ben Shapiro, he spoke, and then we had Tucker Carlson. Is that a good thing?" I said, "Somebody's—I said no, nothing against Ben Shapiro, that's my thing."

Ben Shapiro got up and told the truth. Tucker got up and lied through his teeth. What that does for the young people in the audience is creates confusion. That's not bringing together different points of view. If Tucker just had a different point of view, that's one thing. But Tucker is not telling the truth about Sharia. Tucker's not telling the truth about our relationship with Israel. So what you're doing then, you're introducing to the young people lies and truth. You're placing it on the stage and you're making them receive it. You're preaching confusion to them. The word of God says a double-minded man is unstable in all of his ways. You're showing these young people how to be double-minded, how to be two-faced, how to have lashon hara, how to say nasty things about Israel but at the same time pray for the peace of Jerusalem. I mean, not just nasty things, but lying about Israel. That's what TPUSA is actually doing. That's why for us we spoke out against that. "Oh, Dumisani, you're being—" No, watchman on the wall. If that's what they're going to do, then I have to stand up and say, if TPUSA keeps on going, they're going to become the right-wing Students for Justice in Palestine. If they keep going the way that they're going.

Guest (Male): That's exactly what I said to Tucker and to Charlie because Charlie and I had a text message conversation about a month before he was murdered. And I challenged him on all these things. I said, "Why are you doing this? Why are you allowing somebody who is lying to your audience? This is not based on truth. He's spewing disinformation." I said, "You were able to convince all these young people through TPUSA to vote for President Trump come election day, but you're telling me that you're not going to use the same strategy on helping to get the young people to support our Jewish brethren, to support the state of Israel? This makes no sense to me."

Pastor Dumisani Washington: I told people, after the Gaza war got started in earnest, and all the nasty—you and I, we all know the story how Hamas uses the Palestinians as human shields. They store weapons and terrorists in mosques and in schools and in hospitals, all this thing. When Israel struck a structure near a church in Gaza, unfortunately, Charlie was one of the people who tweeted about it, was condemning Israel. Our organization—and again, people, I'm not speaking ill of the man. What happened to him was a tragedy and I think everybody needs to be brought to justice. This is not about that at all. I'm just using an example. Our organization called Charlie out on it. I don't know him personally, but to say, "Hey, you got to know, Charlie, that's disinformation. That's not what happened." Of course, it wasn't true.

The reason I'm saying that is that in doing that, we never thought that Charlie all of a sudden became anti-Israel. What we were challenging Charlie for and TPUSA was to be mindful of that type of propaganda coming from such a prominent conservative, pro-Israel organization. When I'm talking about lying, we're saying make sure you're telling the truth. Fast forward to now, shortly before he passed away, before he was killed, we took issue with—I'll say it this way. One of my mentors used to say this way: "Dumisani, your greatest strength is your greatest weakness." Whatever you excel in, you also have to be careful of because the enemy can use that against you.

Charlie was a great communicator and he was able to bring disparate voices to the table. Amazing gift from God. At the same time, he was unwilling at times to challenge those bad actors, not just a different voice, but a lying voice. Charlie was the type of person who said, "No, big tent." That was not a good thing. So that after his untimely passing, who's at his funeral? Tucker. Who's up there spewing his stuff? Tucker. Who's still being platformed by TPUSA? Tucker. He's still the face of TPUSA. I'm hearing the excuses being made in the name of Charlie. "Oh, Charlie would have, and Charlie would have." And the things that you were talking about, unfortunately, is that because there was that relationship that was there, Tucker is now embedded in this while he's spewing all these things that are anti-American. Again, he's defending the Ayatollahs, Sharia—"Qatar is our great ally," and all these things.

And again, let's go all the way. Let's get all the way in trouble since we're in some trouble anyway. Qatar bought a billion-dollar mansion for—I was going there, but I was going there. This is another thing where our organization has gotten—and when I say that, I'm not complaining. So for us, remember we started in 2013 during the second term of the Obama administration. So there's plenty of stuff: the Muslim Brotherhood, the operatives in the FBI, everywhere. So we called it all out and the folks on the left who didn't like it, "Oh, you guys, whatever." We didn't care what people thought. His hosting of Black Lives Matter in the Oval Office, in the White House, we talk about all this leftist, communist, jihadist stuff the President was completely, fully on board with.

Fast forward to now. Am I calling Trump Obama? No. But we are pointing out some of these same things. Trump with Qatar—we talked about and we'll just jump there—for example, the conservative influencers who have been going to Qatar, taking their selfies, "Oh, look how wonderful it is."

Guest (Male): Members of Congress. The aides of the congressmen.

Pastor Dumisani Washington: So I said, okay, I get it and I'm upset as well. However, I'm going to get in trouble again. Write to me, write to Laurie. I said, but the United States—Qatar has no greater cheerleader than the President of the United States. The President calls Qatar an ally. The President says the Emir is just his good friend and is a man of peace, respected on all levels. They are the number one or number two state sponsor of global terrorism, which the President called out, as we know, during his first term. He stood there in the Rose Garden and he said, "We have to make a hard decision." Everybody remembers that speech. Go look it up if you haven't seen it. And he says, "Qatar is a major funder of global terrorism, they must stop."

The problem is that Trump 2.0 is 180 degrees different because Qatar is cool, Qatar is great. So I said if we're going to come against, especially these young influencers who go to Qatar, it's a form of gaslighting and this is one of the things being affected on the right. So that if I take the Rob Smiths and all the other young people—I can't remember all their names—who traveled to Qatar and said all these great things about Qatar, if I'm going to assail them while ignoring the fact that the President does the same thing, not only am I not being genuine, I'm gaslighting the people. Why? Because I'm making them think that the real issue is all these influencers. But the truth is, the word of God says judgment begins at the house of God. If it's coming down from our Commander in Chief—if I say the same thing about Qatar that the President said, how are you going to attack me? If I say they're great—so Tucker says Qatar's our great ally. The President says Qatar's our great ally. Tucker says Qatar is strategic—another word that he had used. Everything that he has said about Qatar, the President has said about Qatar. If we're not going to call it out, then we need to be quiet. If we're not going to be watchmen on the wall and say Qatar is the biblical example of Amalek, regardless of who is advocating for them, then you and I are in trouble if we're not going to tell the truth.

Guest (Male): Well, here we are. This is similar to what George W. Bush did with Islam after 9/11. "Islam is a religion of peace." So you have to ask yourself, why isn't President Trump holding these people accountable? Why isn't he going after the fact that they are funding K through 12 education, $6 billion, to indoctrinate our children? And think that we're going to negotiate with them and accept a beautiful $100 million plane? How do you legitimize this? How can you stand before Almighty God and say that God saved me for this, only to do work that is undermining what God was trying to do?

Pastor Dumisani Washington: Two things. I'll do that second one last. So here, first thing is that to answer your question, we can't. We have to speak out. We have to tell the truth no matter who it is, no matter who's in office. So yes, we can't, and as you said again, we are held accountable to God. We will stand before God and explain why we didn't tell the truth, why we spoke out against Qatar during the Obama administration but not during the Trump administration. That's the first thing. But the other thing is that, when you use the example—I share this once again, the word of God. People have said to me, "Oh, but Pastor Dumisani, Trump is God's man," or "God saved his life." I said, "No, I watched it. I was very grateful as well." I mean, the bullet just grazed him. None of them say that never really happened. Those are the Trump haters.

I say there's two types of Trump derangement syndrome. Those for whom Trump can do no good, and for those for whom Trump can do no bad. Neither one of those things is healthy. So I said, I'm not saying that God did not spare his life. Trump even said that. President Trump said that was God. But God spared Hezekiah's life. God spared Saul's life. God spared Solomon. If you know the word of God, the fact that there was divine intervention in saving his life does not mean that the person is perfect.

God literally spoke to Hezekiah through Isaiah and he was frustrated with Hezekiah. He told Isaiah to tell Hezekiah, "Get your affairs in order, you're going to pass away." Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed and God gave him 15 more years. Again, Hezekiah was one of the most righteous kings of Judah, but he made mistakes. I tell people all the time, the fact that God's hand is on someone does not mean that they don't make mistakes. I said please get that out of your mind. It does not mean God's hand's not on you. His anointing is on you, His anointing is on me. He calls us to do a work, and you and I do the best that we can. We make mistakes, we blow it, sometimes we didn't do it the right way. Doesn't mean God's hand's not on us anymore, but it does mean we didn't get everything right.

If you don't understand that principle, then you are in danger of making Trump a cult of personality. And that's the danger. Nobody's perfect other than Yeshua himself. So if you're not going to hold the President accountable, respectfully—I'm not saying get on there and call him all kind of nasty names. Those are the same folks. I had a lot of frustration with Barack Obama. There are those who would call him names and go on, but as pastors, we're not to cross a line. I hear that, I'm very angry. I don't like—I'll say this, one of the things I was most angry about other than what was going on in our nation, I called Barack Obama the worst president Africa ever saw. The genocide that's going on in Nigeria, his handprints are all over it. He helped Muhammadu Buhari get elected. So I recognize—I will never forget that as long as I live. At the same time, I would speak truth to power and his supporters got mad at me.

So now I fast forward to now. Trump's handprints are on the genocide in Syria. Why? Because Al-Shoura is "handsome" and he comes from a strong family. He's literally ISIS and Al-Qaeda who put on a suit and a tie and that legitimizes him. And we said, this is the danger. That does not mean that we're trying to overthrow the presidency. It does not mean that we're trying to come against him and his family. We're just telling the truth. "Mr. President, you're saying that Al-Shoura Al-Jolani is doing a great job? He's releasing ISIS from the prisons as we speak. They're standing on the border of Israel saying, Al-Quds is next. He is a terrorist, has not changed his stripe whatsoever. Whoever is feeding you this stuff, Mr. President, they are doing you and our country a disservice."

If people think that's being disrespectful, if people think that's somehow not acknowledging that God saved his life, you need to go back and read the Scriptures. When Nathan went to David and convicted him of what went on. When Isaiah went to these—and again, as we say that, we recognize these are examples. Doesn't mean you and I think we're the prophets or Jeremiah. But they are biblical principles. These are men of God who recognized that God's hand was on this king, but when God said, "Go to the king and tell him you need to—" they, in obedience to God, went to the king, taking their lives in their hands.

One of my favorite stories about that as a child was when Nathan heard the word from God and went and told David. You and I know he's talking to the king. You don't just talk to the king like that. "O King, let me tell you a story. To tell you a story, oh, this guy, he had a bunch of sheep, this guy had one sheep, and David was outraged. Who is that man? Thou art the man." This is what's missing here. There needs to be the people in the President's orbit who are willing to be the Nathans, who are willing to be the Isaiahs and say, "All due respect, Mr. President." They always say, "O King, live forever." That was the respect to the king. "All due respect, Mr. President, here Qatar is not our ally. Al-Shoura is still ISIS, he's still Al-Qaeda. He's slaughtering Jews, Christians, Alawites, and Kurds. Mr. President, we need to reverse course." That's what God expects from us as men and women of God.

Guest (Male): Here is another aspect of this issue and the trouble that we have. We have a President who is unwilling to call Qatar out. Unwilling to make—if Qatar is such a great ally and Assad is—or Syria's a great ally now, even the Saudis, what are you teaching your kids? What are you teaching in your kids' schools? Do we know what is in their textbooks? Because we see what they're doing to our kids. They're turning—the propaganda in the curriculum is turning our kids not just against Israel, but against America. Why aren't we asking them, if you want to be part of this peace accord thing, you want to be part of this Middle East plan, show us what you're teaching your kids? If you haven't changed the curriculum in your textbooks, then you know, maybe you're not fit for this position. Maybe it's not time for you until you can go back and get your own house in order, and then maybe we'll sit at the table and talk to you about peace with Israel, peace in the Middle East.

Pastor Dumisani Washington: You bring up a very good point. I've shared with people that when the President regained the White House in 2024, everything was a mess already. Afghanistan, everything's on fire. Not to mention all the shenanigans that went on with the 2020 election. So he had—not only is the presidency obviously a job I would never want, I mean, my God, all the things you have to do—but he comes into the office at a time of great distress in our nation, none of which is his fault. He walked into this mess.

I told people that meant his margin of error was very small, that what we needed was strong leadership and real faith in God. So our job: pray for him, pray for the cabinet. The word of God says pray for those in authority over you. To your point, once he starts making overtures to the Muslim Brotherhood, I said, that's when it was game over. The window was already very small, but when he began to fill that window with "the Emir's great, Erdogan he's cool," that was game over. It was game over in the sense that we were already in trouble, again through no fault of his own. But when he came in and he called Amalek our friend, when he called Babylon cool—meaning those who are, in my references, those arch-enemies of Israel, which actually represent different aspects of the enemies of Israel which are also the enemies of America—not holding them accountable for what's going on on our colleges and universities and our K through 12. Once that happened, it sends the message then to the nation, especially to the young people.

I've told people that you have to understand, these are huge mistakes that are being made by the administration. An administration that has less than three years left. That means that even if somehow Donald Trump by the sheer force of his will was able to hold everything together, what in the world's going to happen with the next President, whether it's somebody on the Republican side or, God forbid, Gavin Newsom from California? What he set up just as one example—but people understand what I mean—the Border of Peace is a new ring of fire around Israel. The Border of Peace, one of their first—I think their first meeting is today in Washington, D.C., if I'm not mistaken. And one of their first items on the agenda is the Gaza peace plan, where Hamas is still not disarmed, Turkish troops are in Syria, and Erdogan is trying to put Turkish troops in Gaza.

Someone please explain to me how post-October 7th, Turkish troops in Gaza is a good thing? I don't care if it's Jared Kushner, I don't care. I might not be the smartest man in the room, but I also didn't fall off a turnip truck. Don't sit there and tell me that peace in Gaza means that Erdogan gets to dictate what's going on in Syria and Lebanon and in Gaza. That's worse than it was before. And that's what—so when he places those people on the Border of Peace, this is the danger. I'm all for peace, but you're having some of the most arch-enemies of Israel and the United States of America and not only are you not calling them out, you're giving them even more status, even more—so I watch those things. Pakistan is now on the Border of Peace. My God. China is now on the Border of Peace. Russia is on—can you say Gog and Magog? Are we lining it up for them? We're going to tee it up and say, "Here."

So when people—so once again, the pushback, "Oh, Pastor Washington, God's hand is on him." Stop saying that to me. Or they say this, they would say, "Trust the man, trust the plan." I said, "Please stop speaking. You know what? I pray for politicians. I trust God. Stop doing that. Stop making him a god." I said, "This is—first of all, you guys sound loony tunes. But secondly, you're doing the same thing on the right. They said the same thing about Obama. 'Oh, hope and change, hope and change.' You would ask them real questions, they'd say, 'Hope and change.' I go, 'That's not an answer to my question, you sound crazy.'" So when I say you guys, why this? "Oh, God's hand is on him," and "MAGA" or trust the man, trust the plan. Every time they say, "Trust the man, trust the plan," I'm going, "That's Jesus. That's not—" There's a difference between being disrespectful to leadership and then shutting your mouth and trusting the man, trusting the plan. That's much of what's happening on the right with Christians.

Guest (Male): Silence in the face of evil is itself evil. God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak, not to act is to act. He wrote, Bonhoeffer writes those words for us. And here we are now, facing an existential threat like what Bonhoeffer was facing.

Pastor Dumisani Washington: He faced it. God gave him the grace to write those words for us because we're seeing the same things that are happening. So the President is making existential mistakes. So the Hezekiah one—there's many examples—but when we talk about the Hezekiah one, we said that he was—even our Jewish brothers and sisters said they told me, "Washington, in our sages, they say that Hezekiah was such a righteous king he could have been Messiah." I heard that from some of my rabbi friends. That's how righteous he was. But again, made existential mistakes. It is Hezekiah who then hosted the spies from Babylon. They are sent from Nebuchadnezzar's grandfather. They go and visit Jerusalem. Somehow Isaiah is on vacation. He's on a holiday. So Isaiah is walking in—I remember reading that story as a little kid. The envoys from Babylon are walking out of the palace, Isaiah's walking in. And Isaiah is going, he asks the king, "Who are those guys?" "They came from Babylon." "What did you show them?" "I showed them everything. I even showed him the armory." Meaning, I showed them so many intimate things where Jerusalem is concerned. They know about our national defense. And what did Isaiah say? "That was not wise. They're going to come back during the time of your son," meaning later on, "and take everything." Hezekiah was so full of himself, he said, "My sons? Oh, you mean I'm fine."

I'm saying, am I trying to come against Hezekiah? No. I'm saying that even a good king made huge mistakes. I told them not coming against him, trying to attack him. I'm saying that just like in the word of God, Hezekiah, who was a good king, made some pretty bad mistakes. The President is making existential mistakes. Our FBI was just in Qatar about two months ago coordinating national intelligence with them. We are training, as you know, their air force. Our tax dollars in our country are training Qatar. We are training the Air Force for the Muslim Brotherhood. Wrap your brain around that. I tell these people on the right, the hypocrites, "If that was Obama, you would still be apoplectic right now." But somehow, this is 5D chess. That doesn't make any sense.

Guest (Male): This is what—what do they call it—5D chess? I'm sitting there going, "You guys, I'm not saying that Trump is not intelligent, but I'm saying that the word of God draws a distinction between intelligence and wisdom." Hezekiah was a very intelligent king, but he lacked wisdom often in certain areas. Which is—here comes Isaiah. Isaiah's job, as a watchman on the wall, was to come to Hezekiah and the other kings for whom he served. Or Nathan in the time of David, Samuel in the time of Saul. Their job was to say, "Thus saith the Lord." It didn't place them—there was always the tension. So all you Bible students understand, you have Torah, you have the priesthood, you have all these things are in place, and then the prophets, which are somewhat regulated in the Torah in that God says, "Here's how you can know if they say what's the truth and what's not the truth," that type of thing. But they operate almost like an independent branch of government. They are commissioned by God to come in. Sometimes they have to speak to the priest, to tell the priest, "Hey, you guys are off." Their job is to say what God has said. And the prophet's job ultimately, everyone, is to align the nation back with Torah. Their job is to say, "Hey guys, we kind of missed it. We need to walk right here." Which is why we hear about the prophets interacting with the leaders, whether it's the priest or the king. Why? Because the word of God says that it is the leader that dictates what's going on. He said righteousness—when the righteous reign, the people rejoice. When the wicked are in power, the people mourn. Meaning if there's good and bad going on, everyone is impacted.

So the prophet is sent to the king. "Oh King, Laurie, live forever. Heads up, you might want to—" Laurie the Queen is then challenged in her humility not so much to submit to that person—it's not about him—it's to God. This is why the Torah says in Deuteronomy 17 that you can have a king. "When you're ready to have a king," God says, "you can have a king. Here's what the prescription is: he has to love the Torah, he has to write a copy of the Torah and keep it." It's almost like a priest. He's not going to build up gold and silver and horses—all—he's not going to bring your children as slaves. He's not going to lord it over himself. He's going to be your servant. God says, "In that context you can have a king." So the prophet is sent to the king to remind the king, "This is the type of king that God says you're supposed to be." Hezekiah, you're not being that king right now. Saul, you're not being that. David, you are not being that king right now. That's where we are now. There is a dearth of voices that are the Isaiahs, that are the Nathans, that are the ones who are raised up and say, "Okay, Mr. President."

Now last thing I'm going to say about this. I'm not in the White House, I don't know what all is going on. I know that there's an evangelical team. So I'm not trying to come against them. So they may be—I said this on my podcast couple weeks ago. You may be in the White House and you may be doing your best to tell the President, and if you're doing that, God bless you and God's going to continue to honor you. So I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to you who are taking up space in the White House, oxygen in the White House, it's on your resume, "I served at the White House," and you have a position of influence, you can say something, you're sitting there, God will hold you accountable. That's what I'm saying.

Guest (Male): You've shared so much and we've hit on so many of the topics that we have been focused on here at PJTN. But as we wrap up this interview, Dumisani, because, you know, Candace, Tucker, Nick—they all profess to be Christians. As a pastor, what would you say to them? And then what would you say to our audience? What should we be doing and how can people learn more about what you're doing, follow your work, get involved in what you're doing?

Pastor Dumisani Washington: So the first part, what I would say is that Jesus said it this way: "A tree is known by its fruit." So the word of God also says that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness. No matter what Candace, no matter what the rest of these people say, the word of God says that Candace, Tucker, me, everybody else who claims to be a Christian, we have to have the fruit. There has to be the fruit. And fruit of the Spirit, Paul gave nine—not just nine, but the categories: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Faithfulness, for example, to the word of God. Not just faithfulness that I go to work every day. That's a good thing, you're supposed to. But faithfulness to God's word. So if someone claims to be a Christian but is always violating the word of God, that's the Bible checking their fruit. So I'd say that about them. All the antisemitic stuff—how are you going to hate Israel and love the God of Israel? Those two things completely don't go together. That's first.

Secondly, what I would say to other Christians especially, this is why we're called to pray. Watch and pray. Our prayer first and foremost, people of God, is for us. It keeps us in tune with God's Spirit. It keeps us open to what His word is saying. Because again, any of us can make mistakes. Here I am, I'm all fired up and everything, but again, I'm no better than these other people. So if I'm not careful, if I'm not prayerful, next thing you know, I'm better than Trump, I'm better—no, absolutely no better. That's what's supposed to—so the prayer part of it is supposed to keep Dumisani in check. Still speak the truth. Speak it with boldness, but recognize that Paul said, "If I'm not careful, even after having preached the truth, I myself may stumble and fall." So I have to recognize, I have to do that with humility.

And the last thing I'll say for those who want to follow us, as you know, although I'm a pastor, the Institute for Black Solidarity with Israel is not necessarily a religious organization. We deal with religious things, Bible and everything. We deal with the geopolitical and all those things. For those who want to be involved, want to know more about it, simply go to ibsi.org. Go to ibsi.org and find out more about us. Our major impetus or focus is the Black American and African pastors and leaders communities. Again, not because there's a divided body of Christ. There's no Black church, white church. The name of my book is *Zionism in the Black Church*. Not because there's a segregated church, but we're talking about a legacy. We're talking about the history between the Jewish and Black communities. Like I told you before, our first—I said this before many times—the first Africa-Israel summit was when the Queen of Sheba traveled all the way some 1500 miles from Ethiopia to visit Solomon in Jerusalem. There are reasons why God did this—Africa-Israel thing, what it was actually. So we deal with those types of things. But not some exclusionary type of things that we don't—we know that He's the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and Jesus saved the nations. This is not about Black nations or white nations; this is about what our specific call is.

So for those who want to know more, I started to give an announcement about something my wife would kill me because it's not ready to be announced just yet. But there's some other things that are coming up. We take different tours and everything like that. We speak, we go to churches. We have what's called a Forum on Israel, Africa, and Black America where we break these things down in a workshop format so that pastors and leaders can know. So if you want to be a part of that, you want to know any of those type of things, ibsi.org will let you know.

Guest (Male): Fantastic. So you've been to South Africa too? And that's where we have one of our Bible study groups. We have a Nigerian pastor, a pastor from Tanzania that's part of our group. We do a lot of praying for that country. South Africa, Nigeria—that's whole—we'll have to have another time we talk about all those things. Yes, we will. Pastor Dumisani, thank you so much for taking the time. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you just were able to digest everything that has been said. We need to pray, we need to speak up, we need to stand up. We can't allow our country to be squandered. What are we going to do if we don't stand up in our generation and uphold the word of God and His covenant, His promise to Israel, and how that impacts America? What legacy do we leave for our children? And you've heard, you know PJTN is involved in the curriculum and the textbooks, and we're trying to make sure that the content that our children are being educated with is accurate, that it's historically accurate, that it actually is the principles in the text are biblically correct. We can't do it without you. We can't do it without Pastor Dumisani. It's just a—I could sit here all day and have this conversation. God bless you. Thank you for being here at NRB. We look forward to having you tonight at our main event.

Laurie Cardoza Moore: Thank you again for joining me on this edition of Proclaiming Justice. Please share this podcast with your family and friends. For more information about how you can get involved, please visit our website at PJTN.org. As a PJTN watchman, you can help us keep up the fight to preserve our freedom for our children and their children for such a time as this.