Practice Makes Parent

Guest (Male): If you are a pastor wanting to save and strengthen marriages in your congregation, we've got a great tool for you. Marriage 911 by Focus on the Family trains laypeople to mentor couples who may be on the verge of divorce, or who want to strengthen what they already have.

The kit includes two leader guides, four workbooks, and all the training necessary to meet with and mentor men and women who need help. Visit marriage911.com. That's marriage, the numbers 911.com.

Dr. Danny Huerta: Well hi and welcome to Practice Makes Parent where we understand it's not about perfection, but about transformation. I'm Dr. Danny Huerta.

Rebecca St. James: And I'm Rebecca St. James. We're going to be talking today about bringing God's word to public schools. I just want to say right from the top, there are a lot of different ways to do this education thing well and to honor God in various ways—in public school, in private Christian school, in private school, or homeschool.

Dr. Danny Huerta: And after COVID, it expanded from there. There is a variety of ways we can do school.

Rebecca St. James: I think our job as Christian parents is to be prayerful every year. Lord, what are you calling us to this year? We should not just settle into a certain mode, but really constantly go to him and ask if we are being faithful with our kids' education. It's going to look different for every family. We go to him and we're led by him.

Dr. Danny Huerta: It can feel like a lot of pressure.

Rebecca St. James: Yeah, but there's a no-judgment zone here. All of us are called to what we're called to, and we're responsible before God. I just wanted to put that out there. But we are talking today about public schools specifically, as 80% of Christian parents choose to send their children to public schools.

I wonder how many of those parents feel equipped to represent a Christian point of view and to encourage their kids in this. Maybe there is a situation where a teacher tells their student they can't talk about Jesus during school hours. How do parents help their kids navigate a situation like that? These are the kind of things we'll be talking about today.

Dr. Danny Huerta: We want to do that without squashing their voice. You're wanting to equip your kids, and that's what this show is about. One fact that's important for all of us to know about the history of public education is that public schools in America started with a religious education.

The New England Primer, the first textbook printed in America, taught salvation while children learned their ABCs. Our constitutional freedom of religion is, as Thomas Jefferson put it, the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights.

Today we're going to talk about how you can prepare your kids to thrive as Christians in school. Remember, Bring Your Bible to School Day is coming up in early October. It's the first Thursday of every October. Last year we had 1.5 million participate in that and we want to continue to grow that beyond 5 million. Help us do that and join us at bringyourbibletoschoolday. We'll have the information in the show notes.

Rebecca St. James: Later we're going to answer a question from a mom who is wondering if she should take her kids out of public school. It's a big decision and one that we'll talk more about.

Dr. Danny Huerta: Our guest today is Corey Pennypacker. She's the CEO of Bible to School, a national nonprofit that equips communities to provide free elective Bible classes to public elementary students during school hours.

With over two decades of children's ministry leadership, she is a sought-after speaker, podcaster, and she's written the book Backpack Faith: Helping Your Child Live Confidently for Jesus in Public School. I love that title. Corey, welcome to Practice Makes Parent.

Corey Pennypacker: Thank you for having me. What a privilege to speak with you today.

Rebecca St. James: Thank you so much for your time. Let's dive right in. When it comes to expressing our faith in Christ, what should parents and students understand first and foremost about their rights in public schools? I think there are some misunderstandings about that. Can you clear those up?

Corey Pennypacker: The freedom of religion and freedom of speech is in the First Amendment of the Constitution. The Constitution is the law in our land, in the public square, and in our public school.

People ask me what the public school's role is in religious freedom, and it's actually to allow students to freely express their faith in public school and not prohibit it. The government is designed to protect our religious freedom. The Bible says "fear not." Your children can confidently live their faith in public school, and there are a lot of encouraging stories about that.

Rebecca St. James: What about Bible studies and Bible clubs? What are the rights around that?

Corey Pennypacker: They can read the Bible in school at appropriate times. They can have Bible studies. We have plenty that have them in study halls. They can wear verses on their shirt. If somebody else is wearing a t-shirt with a message on it, they can have their favorite Bible verse on theirs.

They can wear religious clothing. They can use David, Daniel, or Jesus as a history or a hero assignment. They can talk about God with their friends. Focus on the Family has Bring Your Bible to School Day which we love. Our organization partners with that.

But you can do it all year long. I know one little boy, the son of my colleague, who brings his Bible to school and leaves it in his desk in case anybody has a question about the Bible. He actually had friends who were Christian friends who were saying that evolution is probably true. He said, "Wait, let's go to the Bible," and he dove into Genesis.

Kids can really do a lot of things. If they're doing a talent show and people can choose their songs, they can sing a worship song or do a dance for that. It has to be within the rules of the school. They can't be interrupting class.

But it is very true. My organization has release time. We are allowed kids to go off-site and have a Bible study off-site during their public school day. There are many things that people can do.

Dr. Danny Huerta: That's so good to hear. I remember my daughter coming up against some of this when they were wanting to do a Bible study. The rule in the school was you couldn't go off campus, it could be before school, or it could be during certain breaks, but they didn't allow clubs necessarily to exist. That was across the board for any club in the school.

When they were trying to meet in the lunchroom, I remember the principal coming over to them and saying they couldn't be meeting in the lunchroom reading the Bible. It was an interesting opportunity for them to just talk through that with the principal. They asked, "Are we disrupting anything? Are we offensive in any way? Could people play board games? Could they do other things during the lunchtime?"

This was a free time they got to have, and this was something they were choosing to do as a group of people. There were no teachers involved. They said, "We really believe we have a freedom to do this." They went back and forth and they just didn't call it a club. They just said they were gathering to study the Bible together and that made it okay within the rules there.

It gave them the opportunity to be courageous and to go to the principal and, in a respectful way, talk about their point of view. That's what we're looking for, for our kids to bring a life-giving presence and to show courageousness as they live out their faith.

How can parents teach their children to be bold about their faith while maintaining a life-giving posture in the school? If somebody challenges their faith, or if there's a right being violated, what does that look like? What are some practical ways we can teach our kids to be life-giving while standing boldly for their faith?

Corey Pennypacker: I talk about that in the book a lot. First of all, they have to know the rules, just what you said about your daughter. You want to know the school's rules and you want to know if they align with the Constitution and what the kids can do. Sometimes they don't, and then you have to use what I call kindly educating educators.

Being the CEO of Bible to School, we are constantly talking to educators every week. Once a month at least we have somebody saying you can't do that. We have to kindly educate educators because, nine times out of ten, they just don't know. There are bad actors, but we've been doing this for 45 years and it is just something that people are afraid of.

If you approach people with what I call the ABCs of kindly educating, it helps. Assume the best. Assume that they're not coming at you in a negative way. Be curious. Ask them questions like, "Why did you say that?" Clarify your concern. "Why did you say that my child couldn't say Jesus in public school?"

Defend the truth confidently because you have truth on your side and you have the law on your side. Engage in collaboration. How can we make this right? Kids live their faith at home, but then if you say they can't take it through the public school doors, that's confusing. How can we, as a parent and a teacher, not confuse the children? They can live their faith and talk about Jesus here.

Follow up fantastically. That is just saying, maybe in an email or a letter, that we agreed on this and this is how we're going to handle this with our children. Thank them for being open to the conversation and for being willing to allow your child his religious rights.

I had this happen with my son. He was in second grade. He came barreling through after school. I asked how his day was and of course, he said "good." I asked what was good about it because you always get one-word answers from boys. He said, "I had to answer in school and the teacher said I was wrong, but I wasn't wrong, Mom."

She was asking about words for Christmas. Reindeer, Santa Claus. He raises his hand and says, "Jesus' birthday." She said, "Jesus is the reason for the season, but you can't say it in public school." She was a Christian teacher. She was lovely and she just didn't know.

I went to talk to her and said that was confusing for my son. She apologized. I asked why she said that, and she said she didn't want to offend any other people of other religions. Offense is not a reason to tell kids they can't talk about God in school. It's not a reason in the Constitution at all.

Dr. Danny Huerta: That's right. That acronym ABCDEF, we'll have that in the show in case you wanted to review those because that's a great playbook to go in with. I just want to emphasize "assume the best" and "be curious." That's a good one for all relationships.

You assume the best in the other person and then you're curious about what's behind whatever is there. That's an emotional intelligence posture that you're giving your kids in all relationships. What does that look like to a young child that is in kindergarten? What does it look like to assume the best and be curious? How do we teach that to a child? First we model it, but then how do we teach it?

Corey Pennypacker: I was modeling it with my son because I wasn't saying bad things about the teacher. I was saying, "Let's check this out, let's go talk to her." Knowing that people are on your side, that they're not always against you just because they disagree with you or they tell you you can't do something, is important. Assuming the best of people is very godly. It is what Jesus did. We want to be like Jesus. Teaching them that from the start in your everyday conversations is important.

Rebecca St. James: I think that also applies to the conversations they can have with their peers. Graciousness and curiosity. "What do you believe about how the world began?" You can encourage our kids to engage in these kinds of conversations to not only share their faith but really get to know where other people are coming from. It grows relationship and connection. I love that you brought that up.

Dr. Danny Huerta: Sometimes kids come in upset about something that happened. Use the word "wonder." Most likely it wasn't because they wanted to go against you. They're having a difficult time with something. They are either wanting you to believe something specifically because they feel anxious that you're not going to believe like them, or they feel threatened.

Start with the word "wonder." "I wonder what is behind that? I wonder what they were thinking about? I wonder what their experience was like?" You're going in with the posture of Colossians 3:12. Put on compassion. Beyond that, the later verses say to let the word of Christ dwell in us richly.

We're modeling and teaching our kids this by beginning with the idea that I'm going to assume the best in people and that it's not personal. Yet we're so highly sensitive and we become reactive and we lose communication. For young kids to see that is going to help them in so many of their relationships as they grow up and as they become teenagers trying to be bold in their faith. I'm excited you put those as the first two. It's like you're showing up for an invitation ready to connect rather than ready to fight.

Corey Pennypacker: Your posture matters so much because in the mission field we're in, everybody's always wanting to fight. The question I always get is "How bad is it to work with public schools?" It's not bad at all. These people want the best for kids. It's really a fear and some assumptions. We just need to be curious and treat them with respect.

Rebecca St. James: Another idea, as I was hearing you guys talk about how kids can engage other students, is that we could role play at home as well. Kids love to pretend or play things out. If Mom or Dad is coming into that, it's fun for kids. My 12-year-old might be over it, but my eight-year-old would love that.

Let's practice as if you have somebody that you know isn't a Christian. Engage in a conversation about that. You could start out with "Why do you bring your Bible to school? Why do you believe that Jesus is the way?" They can go back and forth with that. It helps them to be prepared for those moments which will come up.

Dr. Danny Huerta: Yes.

Rebecca St. James: We want to go into some specific actual myths that people believe about their rights. Also, lines that are used against us as Christians in the public school world. One of those myths we're going to expose today is the separation of church and state. Can you explain that for us? This was news to me.

Corey Pennypacker: I do a lot of webinars for parents and grandparents. I always ask them if they think that separation of church and state is in the Constitution, and most times they think it is. The term separation of church and state is not in the Constitution. The Constitution is the law of our land and also our public schools.

It was actually a term coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter he wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802. They were worried about the government establishing a religion. They had lived under the Church of England. It is totally taken out of context.

I love the way Alliance Defending Freedom has talked about it. They said the First Amendment actually shields the church from interference from the state. We are the church, so it shields us from interference by the state.

Dr. Danny Huerta: It is flipped the other way. They're trying to protect the schools from the church, like there is a cold they're trying to protect from. It's misinterpreted and our kids are going to hear that phrase.

From an early age, it's good to talk to our kids about what the separation of church and state really means. What specific rights do students have to pray, read the Bible, and talk about Jesus at school?

Corey Pennypacker: It all goes under freedom of speech and freedom of religion in the First Amendment. They can pray at school as long as it doesn't interfere with what's going on at the school.

Dr. Danny Huerta: Like in the middle of math class. They can't start praying right in the middle.

Corey Pennypacker: Yeah, you can't do that. But they can silently pray before their meal. They can silently pray anytime there is free time or between classes. You can pray, read your Bible, or talk about God. A lot of people don't think that they can talk about their faith with others.

I have a chapter in the book that mentions my son. My son is a big Green Bay Packers fan. He talks about that all the time. Whether anybody's going to listen or not, he's going to talk about it. If we can do that with sports, or if we can do that with politics, you can talk about your faith with people. There's no place that says you can't talk about it in school at appropriate times.

They can with class assignments. I know there was a talent show where people were trying to bar a young man from using a worship song. Everybody else could pick their song, but he could not pick a worship song. Alliance Defending Freedom had gone in and defended that. Sometimes you actually have to step up as a parent and defend your child and have the hard conversations.

The Bible is something that they can read in their free time. They could have a Bible study. I know a young man named Colson. In middle school, he wanted to put together a worship team. During study hall, they were allowed to have a room, just like other people were allowed to have rooms.

It's always equal access. He put together a Bible song, a verse, and a little bit of a discussion. It grew to 50 or 60 middle schoolers. He handed that off to his brother when he went to high school, and he started another one. That has 90 kids in it that meet every Friday. These are rights. If your child wants to do it, it's allowed.

Dr. Danny Huerta: Celebrate the wins when they do it. Expressing your faith in a variety of ways—maybe in the sport they're in or through the art they're doing—is a wonderful starting place. The way they carry themselves is one way to show their faith as well. The way they treat other people, their teachers, and the way they do their homework.

I'm curious, are you a Packers fan?

Corey Pennypacker: I have three boys. They like the Philadelphia Eagles, the Steelers, and the Packers. So I'm all three.

Dr. Danny Huerta: That's a mom right there. She's playing the politician. That's great. I'm a Bills fan. Go Buffalo Bills.

Our kids are going to be needing to know what it means to stand for Christ. He doesn't need defending; he needs expressing. Jesus doesn't need people to defend him. He showed that with Peter. He said, "Hey Peter, I got this. You don't need to be chopping ears off and stuff." What he wants is Christians that are faithfully and courageously letting people know about the good news. Alliance Defending Freedom is a wonderful organization and we'll put the information in our show notes.

Rebecca St. James: One of the myths out there is that teachers cannot talk about religion in public school. You brought up your story earlier, but they can talk about religion and their own faith with a few stipulations. They cannot promote nor denounce any one religion. For us to know that is really helpful. I hope for teachers listening, too, that they're standing in that. Their expression of their own faith is allowed.

Corey Pennypacker: Living their faith really matters. It matters to people and it matters to God. It's not something that is just at home or just on Sunday.

You touched on something that I talk about a lot, and it's called God-confidence. The message the world has is "you can do it, get up, you can do it." All about them. What an incredible burden on our children. That is not true.

I have encouraged parents to pray out loud with their children in the morning before school. It changes everything. We talk about whatever is on their heart, things that are challenging to them that day, or things they're excited about. Whatever it is, you give it to God in prayer. Then they are like, "God's got my day." It's God-confidence, not self-confidence.

Dr. Danny Huerta: Love that. Prayer is powerful. It needs to be part of the rhythm of our day from beginning to end.

Before we jump into our Q&A, we wanted to give a shout out to Munla Abraham of the Church of Christ in the Gurapusala village in India. They are a community of around 5,000 residents and they reached out to us through our show link.

Rebecca St. James: They were listening to our show in India? That is so cool. Hey everybody in Gurapusala. Thank you for listening to Practice Makes Parent.

Dr. Danny Huerta: I want to visit.

Rebecca St. James: Me too. Today's question comes from Monica who writes: "How do you know if you should take your kids out of public school? I feel like there is so much pressure around me to do it, and yet my kids are always saying how much they enjoy school. They love going to school. Everyone seems to share so much horrible stuff about public school and that's why we feel pressured." Corey, what would you say to this sweet Mama?

Corey Pennypacker: This is a really good question. Any parenting decisions need to come from God first and foremost. Every family and child is an individual. Whether you pick homeschool, Christian school, or public school, you are the parents and the experts on your own children.

But that being said, in your situation Monica, I have a question for you. Are your children able to express their faith in public school according to their constitutional rights? If so, that's awesome. You're not compartmentalizing their faith throughout the week.

If not, are you willing to be an advocate for your child to kindly educate educators so that they get in their legal lane? It is so important for your children to be safe spiritually. They're always going to get counterfeit coming in, whether you're at homeschool, Christian school, or public school. If they know the word of God and they have truth, you can recognize counterfeit. Are they able to express their faith and are you willing to stand up for that if they're not?

Dr. Danny Huerta: I would just encourage you with the fact that there are many Christian administrators, teachers, and coaches in the public schools. It sounds like your kids are having an amazing time at the school they're at.

If for some reason a concern comes up, that's when you can cross that bridge and talk it through. Just because they're signed up today doesn't mean next year they're going to have to be signed up for the public school. It sounds like it's going well.

If severe mental health issues, peer issues, or bullying comes up, that's a time to begin to think about if this is the best environment for your child academically and developmentally. Sometimes in the public school setting, they can have a very rich experience where they get to practice facing adversity. You're giving them a place to be world-changers within the public school system.

Yet for some families, homeschooling is fantastic. If you're choosing a Christian school or a hybrid program, that's fantastic too. You get to be the one that decides this. Monica, you're wrestling through something based on other people's opinions and experiences. There are some very concerning things happening in the public school, so be aware of that. Be engaged as a parent on what's being taught. Get to know the administrators and teachers. Pray for wisdom so you respond instead of react out of fear.

Rebecca St. James: You can ask the question: are our kids being influenced negatively by secular culture within the school, or are they influencing the culture because they're a Christian? My husband grew up in public school and he had a Christian club and he thrived.

Throughout this show, we've come back to going to God as a family. We're responsible to him on every level. Corey, we're so grateful for all your insights. If we used your question on the show, you'll receive Danny's book, Seven Traits of Effective Parenting, as our way of saying thank you. Monica, thank you so much for your question.

Dr. Danny Huerta: Let me know what you think of the book.

Rebecca St. James: All you have to do is click on the link in the show notes to share your question with us. If you're watching on YouTube, put your question in the comments section. Corey, it's been fantastic to have you on the show.

Dr. Danny Huerta: Thanks for standing strong and teaching us all how to incorporate God's word and helping our kids live out their faith in the public school.

Corey Pennypacker: Thank you for the opportunity to share. It's been lovely talking.

Rebecca St. James: Thanks Corey.

Dr. Danny Huerta: Rebecca, that was a great conversation with Corey. She has written a book that goes into the specifics called Backpack Faith. It has conversation tools for kids as well as support for parents. It can be yours for a gift of any amount.

Another great tool is the free download in our show notes called Equipping Parents for Back to School. This is an amazing resource. It's around 170 pages of information. It's a guide for handling big topics you may face legally in the public school system—locker rooms, sports, and a variety of other topics. It will give you an overview of what's happening and how you can advocate.

Remember, Bring Your Bible to School Day is coming up. Be sure to sign up. It is a fun event. Have your kids be part of the movement and you take your Bible to work as well.

Rebecca St. James: All this information is something you can share with other parents at back-to-school nights. We hope that you're talking about this podcast too. There is nothing better than your word-of-mouth advertising of Practice Makes Parent.

Dr. Danny Huerta: We love the reviews as well. We love to hear from you. Thank you for joining us as we grow together, learn together, and become stronger parents together. Next week, we'll be talking with Dr. Tamara Rosier about ADHD. What an important topic. If you or someone you know could use some encouragement related to ADHD, be sure to join us. Until next time, keep practicing. I'm Dr. Danny Huerta.

Rebecca St. James: And I'm Rebecca St. James. Join us next time for more tips for transforming your parenting on Practice Makes Parent.

Guest (Male): If you are a pastor wanting to save and strengthen marriages in your congregation, we've got a great tool for you. Marriage 911 by Focus on the Family trains laypeople to mentor couples who may be on the verge of divorce, or who want to strengthen what they already have.

The kit includes two leader guides, four workbooks, and all the training necessary to meet with and mentor men and women who need help. Visit marriage911.com. That's marriage, the numbers 911.com.