Pastor to Pastor

Guest (Male): Did you know that you and your family can get exclusive behind-the-scenes content about everything Adventures in Odyssey? It's called Odyssey Studio Insiders. Visit OdysseyStudioInsiders.com today to get signed up.

Rebecca St. James: We want to see the fruits of the Spirit in our kids. We want to see humility and a giving spirit, that they understand it's truly more blessed to give than receive. All these Christian ideals, we want them to really love Jesus. So, what does that look like and how can we authentically direct our kids to God?

Dave Stone: Hey everybody, welcome to Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. I am your host, Dave Stone. Thank you so much for joining us today. Make certain that if you haven't already done so, you subscribe to Pastor to Pastor wherever you listen to podcasts and follow us on Instagram @pastortopastorpodcast.

And if you're on YouTube, you can follow us there on the Focused Pastor channel. If this conversation blesses you, then please share it with another pastor or ministry leader or committed Christian in your church or in your life. We think it will be a blessing to them just as it's been a blessing to you.

I want you to know that we have the capabilities for you to leave a voicemail for us now. You can do that on our website. Just go to pastortopastorwithdavestone.com and click on the "Send a Voicemail" tab on the far right-hand side of the screen. You can share with us some of the topics that you'd love for us to cover, some of the episodes that you've enjoyed, and also let us know your general thoughts of how we can improve and do a better job of meeting your needs. If you have a question, I'll try to answer that live on Pastor to Pastor.

I also want to remind you that we have three episodes that kind of are stand-alones. One of them is "Weddings: A Practical Guide to Writing and Performing Weddings." "Funerals," a second one that we have, is "Funerals: A Practical Guide to Writing and Delivering Eulogies." And then the one that dropped just a few weeks ago called "The Art and Importance of Learning Names."

Each of these stand-alones are designed to help those who might be newer to ministry and maybe are cutting their teeth when it comes to doing weddings or doing funerals. I actually got a text yesterday from a friend saying, "Hey, I've never done a wedding. Can you help me out?" And so I sent him that podcast. When it comes to learning names, that's something that everyone of us needs to improve on. So, check those things out. Those are great resources that we hope will be an encouragement to you.

Today's guest has been in the trenches of ministry for almost her entire life. Most of you probably know her as a singer, and you might know her story quite well. It's featured in the movie that came out a year and a half ago, "Unsung Hero."

Rebecca St. James has transformed from a Grammy Award-winning artist and actress into the two things that she really wanted to be the most in life, and that is a wife and a mother. She's got some really valuable things to say to us today about marriage and parenting in the midst of the pressures of ministry.

She has a book that she wrote with her husband, Cubbie, that came out a year and a half ago called "Lasting Ever." I love the title of that book. She also has her own podcast with Focus on the Family called "Practice Makes Parent." She's been someone that's been close to our family for a number of years. Listen in on this conversation with Rebecca St. James.

This day has finally come. I have looked forward to this. I've seen it on the calendar. Rebecca, thank you so much for joining us.

Rebecca St. James: Uncle Dave! It is just a delight to see you, to hear your voice. There's very few people on the planet that I call uncle that are not blood family members—maybe one other person. I have so much respect for you. I have an instant kindred spirit with you and Beth.

Dave Stone: You're kind to take time to be on this. You understand how these podcasts work because you do "Practice Makes Parent" with Dr. Danny Huerta. What a good team you guys make on Focus on the Family's podcast. If you are a parent and you're listening to this today, you're going to get some great gems and nuggets of truth and wisdom from Rebecca.

More importantly, check out their podcast and share it with your spouse so that they can listen as well because you all do a great job on there and you do share God's truth in practical ways. So, keep it up.

Rebecca St. James: Thanks, Dave. I love it.

Dave Stone: Let's talk just a little bit about early on. You were one of the youngest Christian singers who really made it big. As I recall, you were one of the youngest Grammy Award winners when you broke into Christian music. Throughout your teen years, you had this "Wait For Me." That was a song that you had. Sexual abstinence was something that you really strongly encouraged a whole generation of young people.

But I want to dig into the fact that you didn't get married until you were 33.

Rebecca St. James: That's right. Wow, Dave. Good memory.

Dave Stone: Well, I just think it was 31, you were almost 32 when we met. I'll never forget when you called and you told us about Cubbie. Here's the important thing. We have people who are listening who are in ministry right now, and they're in Christian leadership, and they're in that waiting. They're in that holding pattern. God has just pressed pause, and maybe they're 25 or 30 or 35, whatever it might be. What do you say to that person who is serving and using their gifts for the Lord just like you were, and yet that person hasn't come? How do you encourage them?

Rebecca St. James: Well, first up, I will say that because it was such a long period in my life, I remember it well. I remember the pain, the very deep pain, the delaying of dreams that that was for me and how devastatingly hard it was to be patient for the fulfillment of those dreams to come.

To anybody that's listening that's in that season, just know that I get it and I remember it so well. To this day and for the rest of my life, I will appreciate that God brought my prince, that he was out there, and that I treasure being married because the wait was so long.

I was growing in my relationship with God during that time. There was a lot of refining. There was a lot of constant surrender of, "Lord, I long for this so much. I don't want to make it an idol. With your strength, I will love you and stay obedient to you even if this doesn't happen." I think he really did ask me to come to a place of surrender of, "You know what's best for me even if for some reason that I shouldn't be married, and you know that and I don't, then I surrender to you because I really trust that you love me and you're my good Father." So, I think he did want me to come to that kind of place of surrender.

Sometimes pain pushes us to the change that actually needs to happen that then leads to the breakthrough. And so I'm now thankful for that because I just see how God got me out of my comfort zone, moved me to LA. I was doing some acting at that point as well, and I met my man out there. So, he doesn't waste our pain; he sees us.

I would also say if it's somebody that's listening right now that is single and in ministry, or you are ministering to people in that spot that are single, I would say also get out of your comfort zone. I had to move to the other side of the country from Nashville to end up meeting my husband. But go to the awkward events. Go on a singles missions trip. Get out of your comfort zone. I think sometimes people are waiting for God to drop a spouse from a helicopter into their lives, and we're not prepared to get out of our comfort zone and meet people and do the awkward things. But I think that is an important component of it, too.

Dave Stone: Let's change gears. Let's talk a little bit about the fishbowl because you've been in a fishbowl. Everyone who is listening, their kids are in a fishbowl as well. You grew up being a Christian music star, but also you had a large family that all got involved in that ministry with you.

The movie "Unsung Hero" tells that story quite well on the big screen. If you haven't seen that movie, that's a fun one to watch. But it's a time where I think it really sheds a light on sometimes the pressures that come alongside of ministry and Christian leadership. What do you say to those parents who are listening and they're raising kids in that aquarium right now? They're trying to protect their kids, but also they want their kids to have that good taste in their mouth about loving Christ and loving the church and raising them up to be people who go on to serve in the church.

Rebecca St. James: Yeah, I think being real and being vulnerable with our kids, especially as they come into the time that my daughter now is coming into, who is 11. She's really growing into where I'm becoming, for my husband and I, more of a coach rather than a cop.

We had a sermon about it just last week at church. You're kind of in cop mode of giving your kids boundaries and directing them in those first 10 years of their lives, and then you come into more of a coach mode. We're doing that with Gemma.

I think the fishbowl thing was hard for me. I really do relate to that. Nashville felt a little bit of that for me. In some ways, moving to California was such a relief because I remember just going to a coffee shop and people would be friendly or nice to me. I just realized they are just being friendly and nice to me because I'm Rebecca or Beck. I'm me, rather than in Nashville, I think I would feel like people were friendly to me because they knew who I was. I was always like, "Do they? Don't they?" It felt like there was something required of me or an expectation or an idea of me that people were projecting onto me. It is just pressure. So, I really do relate to that. It can be very painful. It can be very lonely and isolating.

Having people in your life that are mentors, mentors, accountability, safe people that you can go to and go, "I'm hurting about this one thing. I feel really wounded. I'm struggling with this one thing," or multiple things. Just lay it all out. This is where I'm at. Can you hold me accountable? Ask people to speak into your life. Not just a board—definitely your board should be speaking in—but people that have gone before you. Dave, you know, you and Beth are mentors of mine. I have multiple mentors in my life, a prayer team, best friends that are speaking in. But saying, "Hold me accountable. Speak in. Am I missing something?" I've asked you that question before.

Dave Stone: I was going to say, I've heard you say that. That's one thing we love about you and Cubbie. We love when you see people who are younger and they are hungry to say, "Okay, what am I missing? Help me on this. What's your take on this?" I think it's great to have a team like that who might have a little bit more experience. Maybe they're wiser in some areas, maybe they're not, but you're getting a different set of eyes to look at things. Even for those who are Christian leaders, just to say, "Okay, have you seen someone in your church or in your community who has done this well?" and pick their brains. I see you all do that constantly.

Rebecca St. James: Thank you. Well, the wisdom—I just really passionately want to live in wisdom. I want to live with clear skies between me and God. I just don't want there to be a shadow or a cloud of sin or blindness or pride or fear or selfishness in between me and God. I want that intimacy with him. So, if I'm missing something, I want people to tell me before it becomes this idol or this problem in my life and really hinders the main thing, which is I want to be a faithful daughter of God who is loving him with all my heart and then that's playing out in my life—loving my people well, my family well and beyond.

I think it's important. But when it comes to our kids, talking about parenting, one of the things that I know I'm promoting with Gemma very much is what I really want is a safe place where she can come to me about everything and it's not going to be this place of, "Well, shame on you that you're going through that." It's a safe place of going, "Mom, what do you think about this? I'm going through this."

I want to be a place of grace and acceptance and then speaking truth in love. Her whole life, I hope that she can come to me. I know your kids are that—you are that in your kids' now-grown lives. But I want her and all of our kids to be able to come and ask for counsel. They need that from other people as well. I don't want as they grow to just be us. I want them to have mentors and people where they're not just having to go, "I'm struggling with this and I've got to hide it in shame and I've got to pretend everything's fine." I think that's a really, it's a really important thing that they can be open-hearted and learn not only from us but other people in their lives too.

Dave Stone: One of the things that Beth and I would try to do is when we would go out of the area code, we'd try to do that once every two months. It might be for one night, but do it quarterly through the year where it was just the two of us. It might be for two days, might be for three days, but it was the healthiest thing for our kids.

Then what we would do is we would try to get people who we wanted to be great role models for our kids. That's who we would have come over and stay, whether it was a young lady or whether it was a young couple. Yes, you have to have great high trust, so always be very careful. Trust your gut on that and have a long-term relationship with that person before you ask them to do that and protect your kids that way.

But the value that came out of that because these were people that our kids looked up to. They saw them as spiritual role models and that's who they would go to when they maybe didn't feel comfortable coming to us. So, it was that in-between stage. It was somebody who was maybe 10 years older than them so they were cool, but they weren't 20 years older like Mom and Dad were.

But I've seen throughout all of your parenting years, you all are always hungry. You're always on the lookout. You're always asking questions. I think that at the heart of being a good parent is actually loving your spouse. Someone said to me one time, they said the best way to be a great father is to be a great husband. If I can model loving Beth well, and that's what the kids look to and they say, "Oh, this is what it looks like for a husband to treat a wife well." That's what I want.

Talk to me a little bit about the parenting podcast because I know you've been doing it for some time. It's listened to by thousands of people. But I also know that you travel a lot. You're in restaurants a lot. You see a lot of parenting faux pas. If you could say one or two things to parents as a whole that you'd say, "Oh, this could really help to change things in the home," what would be some of the things that you've observed or that you've picked up from your parenting podcast that you and Danny do?

Rebecca St. James: Well, it's nice because Danny is the expert. He's Dr. Danny Huerta. He's the counselor. I've got the accent. That is a powerful team. When you get the credentials and then you get the accent, you could read a phone book, I would listen.

I do love it because I feel like I'm the learner. We have three kids: 11, 7, and 5. I'm in it. We're in the thick of it. We are needing all the tools. Every one of these—and we share a producer, your producer Nathan used to be my producer on Practice Makes Parent—he's heard all these things too. But I'm learning all this gold, this parenting gold, while we're interviewing these experts in parenting, all aspects of parenting.

But then I go to Danny and we take questions from our audience as well. If I have nothing to say on something, I'm like, "Danny, Dr. Danny, what would you say?" So I'm just learning so much every single time.

But the things that come up super consistently are intentionality. I think that we've got to be so intentional as parents, especially in this day and age and especially with technology. I think technology is taking over so many of our families. Not that it's the devil, but it can be used by the devil if we're not so careful. So, we speak a lot about that and being really wise with when we allow our kids to access technology, how much, how much time it's given to.

I think because it can end up also taking over some of these foundational parts of family life that are so important, like having a family dinner together, having time to connect, time to really laugh together and ask questions and be curious about each other. Intentionality comes up.

The other thing that comes up really consistently is how can we encourage our kids in this day and age to be contributors rather than consumers? I think it is such a materialistic, self-oriented world that we live in that it's easy—and we want to give good gifts to our children. We want to bless our kids. It's a joy to give to our children. But if we overdo that and encourage this consumer-driven culture, we end up with selfish, entitled, prideful kids.

We want to see the fruits of the Spirit in our kids. We want to see humility and a giving spirit, that they understand it's truly more blessed to give than receive. All these Christian ideals, we want them to really love Jesus. So, what does that look like and how can we authentically direct our kids to God? That's so important.

I also think I talk to my kids and just say, "Mommy's a little bit stressed or worried about this event that I have coming up. Can you pray for me for the peace of God?" I'll have Gemma pray the sweetest prayers: "Lord, just give Mommy confidence, help her to trust in you, just bless this night and bless these people, help them to connect with you." It's the most beautiful prayers.

So they're seeing me turn to Jesus. They're seeing that authentic faith. I do think that that's a big part of them wanting what we have is that they see our need for Jesus. They see us going to him. They see us also kind of saying sorry, admitting to, "Hey, I didn't handle that super well. My tone wasn't great. I'm sorry. Will you forgive me?" We're modeling that humility. I think all these things are really important in them kind of connecting the dots for their own faith. It's a high value for us in our home.

Dave Stone: You're modeling for them that dependence on the Lord. You're showing authenticity and vulnerability just by the fact that you're saying, "Hey, would you be praying for Mommy on this?" What an awesome way to model for your kids that I am dependent, I am desperate for God.

One thing I've always loved about you and Cubbie is that there is that desire to have that intimacy with Christ. I feel like Christ is a part of your family and your home. I remember years ago hearing a guy speak when I was like 18 or 19. I was a freshman in college. This respected guy that I looked up to, his kids were probably 10 or 12, he said, "I want people to feel like in our family that Jesus is sitting right there at the kitchen table with us when we're having these conversations." Whenever I've been around you all, I do feel like that's what's taking place.

You hit on a great part there, Beck, when you said to even apologize and to ask for forgiveness. You're modeling for your kids what it looks like when we've made a mistake and how we go to our heavenly parent, to God the Father. And that there is grace and that there is acceptance and that your home is a place of grace, as you mentioned earlier.

Rebecca St. James: You know, I think you've touched on something, too, within this whole idea of being real with our kids and really attempting to live it authentically. Authentic faith catches on to people around us, people that are hungry. They see something that is real.

I think people long for that. But I think in my years of being in ministry, observing a lot of different ministries—the ones that are thriving, the ones that are not—and then ministry families, I've seen a lot of ministry families too. When there's hypocrisy, when kids see misalignment of, "Well, this is what I say and this is what I'm telling you, or this is what I'm preaching from the stage, or this is what I say I believe," and then at home it's something different, I think that is probably the biggest deterrent to faith for our kids—our kids that are living around ministry.

So, I think it has to be a high value of, "Well, if I'm not really practicing what I'm preaching at home..." and I'm applying this to myself because I'm speaking about the Word of God, about the Christian life in my shows currently. I'm doing regular shows and events and leading worship and all these kind of things. So, if I'm not living it, if there's that misalignment, I have to ask myself some questions and I have to probably welcome more of that accountability in my life.

Talk to my spouse. If my tone isn't good with my spouse, the kids are watching that. So, I think I not only want to live it for my own self—I want to get to the end of my life and go, "Lord, I sought to love you passionately and love people passionately and well"—but I not only want that, but I want my kids to know that their mom was seeking to do that and to see it lived out.

Dave Stone: I love the words that you've said. You've said intentionality, there's a consistency. The piece that you just shared about... and I think that sometimes that's tough because our kids do see us at our worst times. They do see us when our fuse is short or when God is down. Yes, and as a result of that, we tend to struggle because those people see us warts and all. Yet that's where that apology and asking for forgiveness—"Daddy shouldn't have talked that way to Mommy and I feel really badly about that and I've talked to your mom about it and she's forgiven me, but I want to ask you guys to forgive me for that too because you heard that and that's not the type of dad or husband that I want to be."

Rebecca St. James: You know, springing off of that, Dave, thank you for sharing it and thank you for your humility in sharing it right now. But you were modeling for those young marrieds what you would hope was happening in their homes when they went back to their wives. When they went back, I think what they saw was this humble moment of father and son. But what I think is that they were probably then applying that to their marriage, to every part of their life. What a beautiful gift that they won't forget for the rest of their life.

Dave Stone: We all learn from one another, and iron sharpens iron. You have taught me so much through the way you interact with others. I want to talk about marriage a little bit more because we have a lot of people who are listening who are married or who will be married at some time in the years to come.

I feel like you and Cubbie have healthy rhythms and habits. What are some of the disciplines that you all have undergone to protect your marriage, but also to protect your home and to make it a place of peace?

Rebecca St. James: Well, I think that we set a tone pretty early on when Cubbie was on the road so much because the first three or four years of our marriage, he was on the road a ton. So, we kind of made it a thing of like we won't be apart for—I think it was two weeks, or maybe it was less, maybe it was 10 days. Between my touring that I was still doing at that point and his, we made it a point that we wouldn't be gone that long.

Now, I think of it how much we're together all the time and that sounds really long. But that was fighting for our marriage. We've got to be together. We can't go beyond that. So, I think putting some boundaries of we're not going to go a certain amount of time without being together and seeing each other and me coming on the road as much as I could with him because he was touring a lot more than I was.

To now, with having three kids, we try to do as much as we can as a family. We did a Christmas tour last year and the whole family came out on the bus with the band and that was so sweet. As much as it makes sense, we try to go on the road as a family for shows, but often I'm doing kind of a one-off thing, like I'm just away for a night. So, I bring one of my daughters with me for that. So, we do quite a bit of tag-team parenting.

But I think the regular date nights have been a value in our marriage of just sowing in in that way. Really, honestly, I think where we're at right now is just letting our kids know—speaking the rhetoric and the narrative and the why of, "Daddy and I need time together, our friendship time, to sow into our marriage."

Believe me, it's not just for us and because we want that, it's for you. The joy and the security that it brings you and the stability that that brings to our family, at some point in your life you will recognize how important that is that me and Daddy sow into our friendship. So, we speak that. We speak that it's almost like one of the 10 commandments of our family life.

We have written out kind of a mission statement of what we want our lives together to look like and we probably should refer back to that or print it up and refer back to it more often than we do. But there are certain components of our DNA as a married couple and as a family that are integral and that's one of them.

Commitment to just talking through the hard stuff. I remember early on in marriage, I had read so many marriage books and I was like, "I want to do this so well. Do not let the sun go down in your anger." I would make Cubbie—I laugh about it now—but stay up till two or three in the morning just to resolve this conflict, just come on, we've got to get to a place of peace.

Now, I'm a little bit more gracious in, "I think that we would probably have a better conversation if we wait till tomorrow and talk it out after a night full of rest." But I think it's a high commitment to us to not let conflict linger and to talk it through to get to the other side of it and to get to a place of peace with each other and own to our mistakes quickly. Both parties can always own to something, whether it's, "Hey, my tone wasn't great in that exchange." Even if you feel like the other person has done more than you, you can own to something in humility and that humility often kind of breaks the power of the conflict. Someone's got to get off the crazy cycle and humble themselves and then you get back into this pattern and rhythm of love.

Dave Stone: I understand what you're saying because I think that's really good. We can be legalistic about that verse, "don't let the sun go down on your wrath." One time we stayed up for three weeks. There might be some truth to some of that.

But there have been times where I've leaned over... and you know how that bed that is supposed to be a playground becomes a battlefield instead. You're both turned facing the opposite way as far away as you can possibly get. There have been times where we've been so upset with the other person for something that happened. I can remember one time when I don't know what I'd done, but I'd done something stupid or said something stupid. The silence was there and we could still tell we were both awake and I just leaned over and said, "You know, I'm sorry. I know you don't want to talk about it now. We will get through this. I hope you'll forgive me, but just know that I love you and we can talk more tomorrow."

Just to say that to try to put a bow on it, just to remind, don't let the negative thoughts run like crazy but instead just to say, "Hey, we're going to... we'll get through this. But I do want to own up to it." I love what you just said, you want to own up to what it is that you can.

You have been in ministry for years ever since you were 13 years old. You've had to share your husband when he's been touring and had other things going. In some ways, it feels kind of like a pastor's wife at a church where you're sharing your husband as they're using their gifts. But you've always had this passion for motherhood and you had this strong desire to want to be that godly wife. So how do you handle it when there are tugs and pulls at your husband? In Cubbie's case, maybe he's working on a movie project and he has to get consumed with the videography and the work that he does so well. And yet you're sharing him with all these other people and you're holding down the fort, so to speak.

Rebecca St. James: The experience that comes to mind foremost with that is I retired from music a year into us getting married. I had at that point been doing music nearly 20 years. So it's really what I knew in my adult life—first tour at 13, full-time at 16.

I think I had really fought to know my value outside of the title of Christian singer or author or the different things that I'd done. But I think once I hung up that hat and I was home with a newborn and Cubbie was on the road for that first year of Gemma's life, I remember just kind of wrestling—and we talked about it in our book too—wrestling with my value in a way.

I had a counselor—I really believe in counseling. If you're struggling in your life, even as... just because you're a pastor doesn't mean that you don't need counseling. I think every pastor should be in some kind of counseling situation at some point in their journey, if not regularly, because it's such a challenging occupation. It really is. Ministry is a challenging occupation and to have somebody as that safe place that's outside of your normal day-to-day work of expectations, I think is really valuable.

A counselor said to me, "You, Rebecca, could sit in a room with another person and not say one thing to them, not intentionally minister to them at all, not sing anything, not do anything to serve them, and just your presence, just who you are, who God created you to be, would be a gift to them. Just you, who God created you to be."

I think that was a really remarkable little picture to me of my value because I think so much of my life, what I have done for people, how I've served, how I've been in ministry, how I've given on stage or the things I've said, those have been the things that have been applauded—"Wow, that impacted my life." So in some ways, I could buy into this idea that that's what people want from me, what I can actively give. But for him to go, "No, just your spirit. Your presence. Who God made you to be as a daughter of his in a room with a person can alone be a gift."

I really started to try to walk that out and come from a place of rest. They don't have to know your resume. No, what he was saying is your spirit, the fragrance of Christ, would come through. I want to make certain people get that. That's what you're talking about because you're as unassuming as can be and you never lead with... I mean, I would probably have a button on that said "Youngest Grammy Award winner at the time." And yet that's not something that would ever come up with you, but the fragrance of Christ would come out of you.

I pray so. That people would be able to say that would be the delight of my heart.

Dave Stone: What do you say to the person who has been on the stage, the platform, has been a leader in the church, they are known as the student pastor in town or the discipleship person or the preacher, or whatever it might be, the pastor's wife, the first lady of the church? After years of that, you start to get your identity in Grammy Award, Dove Award, fill in the blank. How does a person reconnect if they've gotten lost when it comes to where their true identity should be?

Rebecca St. James: What I would probably encourage them to do is look around at the landscape of your life and look for that person who has either known you a really long time, kind of known you before you were wearing that hat, before you had that role in life. For me, that's my best friend. She's been my best friend since I was 16. So she was with me right when I was beginning in music over 30 years now.

And she never bought into any of that stuff. She respected that I did ministry, she loved that I wanted to serve Jesus, but she didn't come to shows of mine and be like, "Wow, this is just the best version of you." She just really loved me for me and I knew it from the earliest times and still does and we are doing life very closely together.

So I would just say look around at the landscape of your life and go, "Who are the people that really see me for me and value that, and that I could not wear this hat tomorrow and they would still be there? They would still be sticking around. They're not trying to use me. They're not trying to get anything from me." And if you don't have that, if you don't have that kind of friend, actively look for that. Actively look for that person that might be a little bit older than you, but the person that can kind of see the you that is beyond the role.

Dave Stone: That's great advice. I want to wrap up with this season that you're about to enter into. Call it a sabbatical from serving for a stretch because so much of what you do is using your gifts for the Lord upfront. And yet you told me that in February you're going to start this six-month hiatus or break from serving. I hope you're looking forward to it. I hope it will be an incredible time of replenishment. I know that your house is a place of peace that you really want it to be a haven for the kids. But what do you hope to get out of that time away because you have given so much and you have been "on" so much? What do you hope that God does? And as a listenership, we can be praying for you during this season.

Rebecca St. James: Thank you for that very kind question. I feel like God has given me a picture of that time. There was another time in my life where I had just retired from music at that point, and God ended up calling me back into it years later. But I had a six-month window where I felt like he was just asking me to lay down anything that I was trying to accomplish in that time. I was off the road, but no books, no... you're not going to just tick off any boxes during that time. It's really a time of rest.

In a lot of ways, that's what I feel like he's calling me to in this six months. But I know that he wants to show me new vistas. I know that he's placing new dreams, new creativity, new bandwidths. He's calling me to rest—uppercase R-E-S-T. And I have Psalm 23 hanging on a kind of... almost like a painting, but all written out in our bedroom. The green pastures and the quiet waters, the times of refreshment, I know that he's calling me to that.

In that concentrated time to just be with my kids, be so present to them, and I know, Dave, that that time will inform the years that are coming in our family life. I know that there will be new family rhythms, new grace, new bandwidth, new creativity in our family life and in ministry. But it's almost like the ministry part is the lesser value to me, Dave. It's almost like what God, what I know he wants to do in me and what I know he wants to do in our family of just the refreshment that will come to my heart, the outpouring of love on my family that will come from it, the joy of just getting to be together in unbroken ways. I'm just so excited about it. I just feel like a kid in a candy store. I really do. I'm living my dreams. I've got a husband and three kids, we're homeschooling—just the adventure of it all. I'm just excited about that place of rest, that haven.

Dave Stone: That's a great place for us to wrap up because all of us who are in ministry and in leadership, we do feel like we're constantly giving out. As a result of that, we can feel pretty empty. What you're saying is you want this to be a great time of intimacy with the Father, that he draws close to you as you draw close to him.

But additionally, it's also a time to pour into your family. I know that God's going to give you some new healthy things on the horizon. Maybe those are projects, maybe it's just healthy rhythms within the home. But it's a good reminder. You might be listening to this and say, "Well, I won't have that luxury of taking six months." I totally understand that. But could you take a couple of weeks? Could you say that you're going to say no to something so that you can say yes to Christ and you're going to have a concentrated time, whether that's in the evenings when you're not at work or whether you're going to take a solitude retreat? Whatever it might look like for you, it doesn't have to look exactly the same as the season of life that Beck finds herself in, but find some takeaway that you can use from what Rebecca just shared with us.

Her podcast is "Practice Makes Parent" with Dr. Danny Huerta, and they both have great insights and practical advice for us. If you're looking for a book for you and your spouse to read, she and Cubbie have a great book. It's called "Lasting Ever." It came out about a year ago now. Well, thank you so much for taking time to share with us, and we'll be praying for you that this is a healthy break for you. Keep letting God use you.

Rebecca St. James: Thank you, my friend. I've loved every minute.

Dave Stone: Well, there were so many good pieces of information, but even more than that, there was great application for us. The theme of intentionality and consistency were woven throughout the fabric of our entire conversation. I love that phrase when she said—I wrote this down—"Sometimes pain pushes us to the change that actually needs to happen that then leads to the breakthrough." I thought it was so cool that she just pointed out how that intermediate step of just obedience and making it through the painful times and saying, "Okay, Lord, I'm going to trust you," that can help to get us a little bit further in the distance where we're closer to the Lord.

I also love that phrase: "I want to live with clear skies between God and me." What a beautiful, vulnerable statement to make to say, "No secrets, Lord. You know who I am. You know what I struggle with. You know how I need your help and depend on you."

Rebecca's example of faithfulness comes through loud and clear. I loved when she talked about how she and Cubbie try to create a home of safety and grace for their kids where they speak the truth in love. It can be tough in the ministry fishbowl, especially for your kids and especially for your spouse. But I'm challenging you through the words that Rebecca shared to really make it a safe place for your kids and a place where they feel that freedom to share anything with you, and the same with your spouse as well. And so it begs the question: Am I the same person at home as I am at church? And that's something that I think we all wrestle with.

As for our story, I'm going to stick with the family theme. To wrap us up today, I just want to share one that I heard at a staff retreat a number of years ago when I was working at a church. On our staff retreat, one of our ministers shared a devotional in which he related a part of his personal testimony.

This is what he said. He said eight years ago, "I left home and I went away to Colorado State University. I majored in partying. I was in a fraternity. But after three semesters, my world came crashing in on me. That semester, I had flunked four of five classes. I had de-pledged from my fraternity. I had lost all of my superficial friends. But the time had come for me to make a change and to start walking with Christ.

"There was no place to have any privacy to make the phone call back home to my parents explaining that I had failed. So, I went in the bathroom to make the phone call there at the fraternity. And I sat on a stack of pornography and I called my parents. I explained to them that I'd blown it in a lot of areas of my life, not just my grades. My parents listened to me to what I had to say, and then they said only three words to me. It wasn't 'we love you.' It was actually better than that. They said, 'Just come home.'"

That's a beautiful picture of the way our heavenly Father loves us. It's a picture of the prodigal son when on his way home, before he even made it home, his father was scanning the horizon and looking for him. And he saw him and he took off running toward him. Think about it in the Jewish time of day, back then in that culture, it was against Jewish tradition for a man to run. It was undignified. He was unworthy if he were to run in public. But this father's love for his child was much more important than any Jewish tradition.

I wonder if your kids have felt that same love from you in the past few days, in the past week. Maybe there's a phone call you need to make, maybe there's a text that you need to send. Maybe tonight is just sitting down and saying, "Hey, what do you want to do tonight?" and talking to one of your younger kids and saying, "How can I make this a special time for you?" Because life in the fishbowl isn't easy.

Well, thanks so much for joining us. As always, we appreciate you listening to Pastor to Pastor. We drop a brand new episode every Tuesday. It's designed to encourage, inspire, and to challenge you because we know that leadership can be lonely. That's why we call this Pastor to Pastor—it's to remind you you're not alone. Until next time, I'm Dave Stone. God bless.

Your church comes to you each week to fill their cup. But when the crowd leaves, who's filling yours? That's exactly what I'm here to do with my new podcast from Focus on the Family. It's called Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. I'm so excited to help you navigate the unique challenges that pastors face in their ministry journey, both personally and professionally. So, I invite you to listen and subscribe to Pastor to Pastor wherever you get your podcasts.