Pastor to Pastor

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Well, our guest today is Ben Cachiaras. Ben is the lead pastor of Mountain Christian Church, just outside of Baltimore, Maryland. Ben has been a great friend of mine for nearly 30 years. He has some great wisdom to share with us today about mentoring the next generation of ministry leaders as well as the importance of caring for your community. This man pours into more young pastors in their 20s and 30s than anyone that I know. I can't wait for you to hear this conversation with Ben Cachiaras.

Hey, Ben. This has been something that I've had circled on my calendar. Thank you so much for joining us, my friend.

Ben Cachiaras: Dave, it's really fun to look forward to hanging out with you again.

Dave Stone: Yeah, we got to be together recently at the Michigan Christian Convention and we had a lot of fun, and I heard that you played off of me and made fun of me in your talk the next day. So, good on you.

Ben Cachiaras: I did. Yeah, anytime I can get a little leverage off of making fun of Dave Stone, everyone loved it. You just killed it at that joke you told, and I kind of got some extra mileage out of it. It's my story of my life, is getting extra mileage out of Dave's jokes.

Dave Stone: Well, I wish I could have been there, but the folks that I talked to said you did an awesome job. So, I want to hear a little bit about how you got into ministry, and I know that there's a legacy piece that our people would be interested in. We have a lot of PKs and folks who have had relatives in ministry. Give us a little snapshot of your family tree.

Ben Cachiaras: Well, yeah, every story is so unique. I know mine is probably different than some and is going to sound really similar to some because I'm one of those guys that grew up in a church that was an awesome small church in Minnesota with a family that was just deeply, deeply steeped, I guess I would say, in the things of the Lord.

I have a mom and a dad who were the real deal and grandparents that just walked out their faith in deep ways, people in ministry. So, in some ways, it was kind of like the water that you're swimming in, but everybody still has to kind of have that experience where you decide this is for me.

And so, what happened for me was it was a combination. I mean, there were people in my life that tapped me on the shoulder and said things like, "Benny, you know, little boy, you could be a preacher someday. You could," and I think we underestimate how powerful those statements can be for like a sixth grader, seventh grader. I was like, "Huh."

You know, I still went through a period in high school. I grew up in Rochester, Minnesota. And I don't know if you know anything about Rochester, Minnesota. It's a little town south of Minneapolis, but it's the home of the Mayo Clinic. So, like practically all my friends were doctors' kids. And I was okay at math and science, and so I kind of got shoved down that path a little bit, and I kind of thought, "Well, I guess that's what I'm supposed to do." And I had some people telling me that you'd make a good doctor. I said, "Okay." So I was kind of heading that direction sort of half-heartedly, I guess, now as I look back on it, but I thought that's maybe what I should do. I think it sounded better to my friends than to say I was going to go to a little no-nothing Bible college that nobody ever heard of and go into ministry. It didn't maybe sound as good or something, I don't know.

But you know, Dave, it was my junior year of high school. And I don't know if you've ever been to Pine Haven Christian Assembly, the camp up in northern Minnesota.

Dave Stone: I haven't. We've supported it, but I've never been there in person.

Ben Cachiaras: It's this awesome camp. Actually, my grandfather had a hand in starting it way back in the 40s. And it's just been a huge part of our family and our legacy. My dad was the manager for years. We grew up there, it was a home base, but all the kids in Minnesota gravitated there that were part of the church network that I was a part of.

So, I go up there over Labor Day weekend. And my grandfather, who was this kind of big man in the faith, just like he had planted churches and had taught at a Bible college for decades, really. He was preaching. So if you can picture this, a little white chapel in the middle of pine trees in northern Minnesota with a bunch of high school kids and some college students and then about a 95-year-old man.

And he's preaching up a storm, and he preached that old sermon, "What's that in your hand?" You remember that one? "What's that in your hand?" You know, Moses had a staff, and that's all he had, but it's all he needed. He preached that whole sermon, and he ended with, "What's that in your hand?" And then he said, "I want to call someone to give their life to the Lord Jesus today."

And some kids went forward and gave their life to Christ in that chapel that night, which was the same place I had done that a few years earlier, walking down that dusty aisle. And so I'd given my life to Christ there, watched others do it that night, and I thought, "What a great night. We're going to go down and get our sodas and relax for the rest of the evening."

But before he dismissed, he said, "Now, I want to give another call." And everyone was literally like, "What? I thought we were leaving." But he said, "I want to say, I believe there is someone here who knows that the best energy of your life is meant to be given to the work of the local church. And I want to call you to come and stand by me with a commitment that's just as important as the ones that you just saw."

And then he said, "Now, if you're thinking to yourself, 'I could probably do that, maybe I could go into ministry, I could probably do ministry,' I'm not talking to you." He said, "I'm talking to you if you know you can do nothing else and ever have peace with yourself and the Lord. And if that's you, I want you to just come up here and stand by me and proclaim that out loud tonight."

And at that moment, Dave, it was like, you know how there are those moments where it's like everything that you've kind of been trying to believe just like melted away and I was like, it was clear. It's like, this is who I am, it's what I'm supposed to do. So for me, it was probably one of the most profound moments of clarity. I don't have a lot of those amazing God moments, I guess, that it seems like other people seem to have, but that was one of them that I just knew.

It just, the water just flooded, and here I was, a few years right after I'd walked down that same aisle to give my life to Jesus, I walked down there and put my hand on my grandpa's hand and he said, he made up this confession right on the spot, like, "Repeat after me: I love the Lord Jesus. I want to give my life to his church. Though none go with me, still I will follow." I mean, he just laid it on thick, did the whole thing and everyone's on their feet.

And two of us that night, my friend Rich Tesky also gave his life to ministry and is still serving in campus ministry, now he's in the local church. So, that was the culmination of a lifetime of deposits that so many people made. I'm so grateful to all the people in the churches that wonder if they're ever making a difference, but they're patting some kid on the back, telling him they can serve the Lord, and the encouragement and the Sunday school teachers along the way, and the camp counselors and the youth group leaders and Bible Bowl. All of that kind of cumulatively prepared me for a moment to say yes, and then since then I've just tried to stumble my way through by getting some school and saying yes when the Lord opened the door. One thing has led to another, and 40 years later here I am, so grateful that I have a sense that my life had a purpose in the work of the Lord Jesus, greatest work in the world.

Dave Stone: And how old were you when you made that commitment?

Ben Cachiaras: I was a junior in high school.

Dave Stone: Okay. I love to hear stories like that because it's a profound moment in your life, but there'll be a lot of people who are listening right now and they are sitting in their car or on a treadmill somewhere and they're saying, "Man, that's so similar to my story." Somebody just reached out to me and saw some potential in me and praise the Lord that you answered that call.

That's also a call that we don't give very often, those of us in pastoral leadership, whether we do that from the platform or whether we do that just one-on-one with people, it can have a profound and significant impact on a young person to say, "I'll think about that." And I love the way he qualified it and said, "I'm not talking to you if you say, 'Yeah, well, maybe I could do that.' But no, if you can do nothing else." What a powerful line.

Ben Cachiaras: Ministry is too hard to kind of back into it, right? I mean, I think he was trying to weed out people who were like, "Well, I probably couldn't succeed over here, so..." He wanted the what he considered dedicated, like going to go for it kind of people. So, yeah.

Dave Stone: Good for him. Now, you went into ministry. If I'm remembering correctly, Ben, you helped put yourself through Bible college by doing magic, didn't you? I mean, you started doing magic years ago in high school, and did you pick up some side money that you used for part of your college doing that?

Ben Cachiaras: I did. I did. I had a lot of odd jobs in college. I worked at a women's clothing store and shelved books at the Mayo Clinic Library and ran a jackhammer and refereed volleyball, but my favorite was I was a semi-professional magician.

I picked that up like a buddy and I started messing with it in sixth grade, you know, invited friends over and had a show in the garage, charged a nickel or whatever. But by eighth grade we had business cards and we were doing little shows all over town for doctors' kids' birthday parties and Boy Scout clubs. And then but then as we graduated, I went to Bible college in the same town that I grew up in and my buddy, he went off to medical school. So I got all the gigs and didn't have to split the money anymore, it was great.

But yeah, it's something that I've really enjoyed and you and I actually share that joy. There's something fun about it to work on the next trick, and I've really enjoyed it and kind of dusted it off around COVID and have really enjoyed just playing around with it.

Dave Stone: If I'm testing my memory on some things, and you can correct me if I'm wrong on this, I think the first time that we ever met was at a Christ in Youth, a CIY MOVE conference in Adrian, Michigan, and I think I was doing an afternoon session of comedy for an hour and I think I pulled you up on the stage and we had just met at lunch or something and we juggled together. Am I, is that correct?

Ben Cachiaras: I have only vague recollections of this. You have mentioned this before and I'm like, I'm wanting to remember all the details and it's blank. But I, yes, I think that's right. You have said so. As Jesus would say, "So you have said."

Dave Stone: Well, you've always been a fun parent and my kids love you. The times that we get to be with you, especially as my kids were growing up and we would see you with more regularity at different events and church conventions and things. But talk to me a little bit, you and Carla been married for decades, you have three faithful adult children, Nathan, Andrew, and Ellie, and I know each one of them have broken bread with every one of them as well and their love for Christ, their love for the church is something that's evident. What tip would you give to those who are listening as far as helping to pour Christ into their kids so that when they are older they continue to walk that path?

Ben Cachiaras: Well, that's a big one. Something I've learned a lot from you, honestly, Dave, and others who I've paid a lot of attention to parents and pastors who seem like they know what they're doing and who are getting good results. I paid a lot of attention to you and some others who are significantly older than me and who have...

Dave Stone: Watch it there.

Ben Cachiaras: But I'm only jesting a little, but really, I think watching their, when you have kids who grow up and they, especially in this day and age, right? Kids who love the Lord and love each other and love their parents, that is a blessing. That's all too rare, and I don't pretend that it's anything other than a gift of grace.

But I think there were some, I would use the word intentionality. Like trying to be intentional about seizing moments and thinking like, "What's the end game of this approach and how do I want them to think about the church in 15 years?" Like it's not too soon to think about that when they're five.

And how you behave in ministry and, you know, I think some of the basic things like just, "We're doing this because we're Jesus followers and we're not going to do that because we serve Jesus, not because your dad's a pastor." But just helping them try to understand that being a pastor's kid is a beautiful blessing and helping them see the benefit of ministry, making it fun.

We included them and involved them in as much ministry, and those kids that are running around preparing communion or cleaning up or, "I'll go pick up the pencils," whatever it is at any age or, "Hey, come with dad tonight, we're going to go hang out with the men's group," or when if you're speaking out of town, I remember it was like they knew which kid got to go next and we'd pull them out of school sometimes to go with dad and you got to be old enough to sit in a room for two hours and do homework while I'm in a meeting, but afterwards we're going to go to any restaurant. "Where do you want to go, Ellie?" "Denny's." She always wanted to go to Denny's, that was her highlight.

So, I just don't know, I'm hesitant to look back and say, "Well, here's the brilliant plan we had." But I just don't know, I mean, I think it's a gift of grace, but I do know we tried to be intentional and we tried to make it fun. We tried to help them see the blessing and the beauty of the church and we never took the garbage home where they never heard like if there was something going on with an elder or some staff member that got sideways or whatever it was, they didn't know that stuff. They knew that we were loved and blessed and it was like, "Look at this card that this family sent to us and they mention you by name and they gave us a $50 bill. We're going to go play mini-golf."

So, I think helping your kids see the beauty and the blessing is really important. And then taking advantage of some of the flexibility that comes with ministry, you know, it's like you do get to schedule a little bit of your time and you can be at that ball game even if it's right after school at three or something like that. And so, I think being there for your kids and being the kind of parent that really prioritizes them.

Ministry can really consume you and just fill up every inch of your life. So, that intentionality about scheduling your kids in, they can see, "Wow, I know my dad's really, really busy, but I'm important."

You remember that old picture of John F. Kennedy with his son under his desk? That picture right there spoke to me when I was young in ministry and I had a kid about, you know, and and it's like here's the leader of the free world with his kid playing at his feet under the presidential Oval Office desk. And that's kind of how we tried to go after it, like, "Okay, you're part of this and you're in on it and you're important around here." And so, we wanted to be able to say, "You have access." I'm not daddy's not always immediately available, I might be in a meeting or on a call, but you have access anytime and if you call, I'm picking up that call.

They still know that, and my kids will call and then they'll ask five minutes into it, like, "Well, what are you doing?" "Well, I'm actually in a meeting." "Oh, I'm sorry." But it's like, I'm taking their call. And I just think that goes a long way. And yeah, so there's some of the things that occur to me. I'm just so grateful for the models and examples I had because of others who've done that really, really well. And I think there's a lot of people who are grown up in the church today who love the church, and it didn't use to be that way. Used to be a lot of preacher's kids didn't grow up that way.

Dave Stone: I love those words that you said: intentionality, fun, and you're just looking for those ways that you can show them that they are blessed and that ministry is a beautiful blessing from God.

One of the parts when you talked about having fun and you are intentional about that, one of the ideas that our family stole from your family is what you all do for a person on their birthday. Do you mind sharing that for people? Because I think it's important just to see how you guys do still have fun together now that you're in this stage of your kids being in their 20s and 30s.

Ben Cachiaras: I think you're talking about one year, I don't know, it's been a long time ago now, I guess it was all the world's divided by COVID, pre- and post-COVID. I think it was pre-COVID or during COVID, maybe somewhere on '19 or '20. We just had this idea, we're all together and we're just blessed with the family that our kids and their spouses everyone loves each other and wants to be together.

So, we were having fun one night and we said, "I know, let's make a video." And we just created a fun video that said happy birthday and I can't remember even what I think we had a maybe it was Stevie Wonder's song or something, "Happy Birthday," and we were dancing around or some silly thing. Did about a hundred takes till we got one we liked, and it was about 30 seconds long. And we just started sending that to people as their birthdays would come up throughout the year.

So it was like, "Hey, Dave, happy birthday. We got the kids together just for you, and here's a video for you." And Dave would open that text and here's the Cachiaras family saying, "Hey, we love you. Happy birthday. Here's our song." And so now it became a tradition and so we just sent out three of them today. This year's version features kazoos, you know, but just something fun that lets people know that we remember you, we see you, we love you, we're thinking about you. And it's amazing how many people think we did it just for them.

Now, Dave, you took this idea. Dave hired a Hollywood producer and got a seven-shot, seven-camera shot thing and did this amazing thing and just like, "Oh, man, you gave us some great ideas for future years."

Dave Stone: Well, we got all our ideas from you and now it really is as we've done three iterations of it. We drop a new one every late August or early September is when ours rotates, I don't know about you. And then I put that in my calendar: "This is when they got the old version, this is when they'll get the new version."

But you're exactly right. The people that get the brand, that get it for the first time, and they respond immediately. We had a flight attendant one time that said, "I'm sitting here in bed and I have watched this 15 times and I've got tears in my eyes that you all would go to all this trouble for me." You know, so what you going to do? You're not going to say anything.

And I could tell you a lot of other folks that people would know who have thought it was just for them. Beth gets mad at me because it seems like, Ben, the international percentage whenever I send it internationally, it's about 80% that are convinced that we did it just for them. One time got an emotional voicemail back from someone saying, "You will never know, you will never know," and she's crying how much this means. And my wife is like, "You can never send that ever again to anyone." But I said, "Hey, it was made with her in mind, you know." So.

Ben Cachiaras: That's right. It was, it was. And with AI, you could probably just dub her name in there next time, too. "Hey, Gladys."

Dave Stone: Okay, I want to talk about younger leaders because, Ben, I've known you for decades, and one of the things I appreciate about you is that you're not coasting. You've been at Mountain for starting your 30th year now, which is unbelievable. I love a person who stays at the same place and outlasts critics, and the church has grown exponentially under your leadership. But you have this passion for younger leaders, not just within the church at Mountain that you're developing, but also really across the country. Where did that come from, and why do you see that as a valuable investment of your time?

Ben Cachiaras: You know, I think for me it is something that I care a lot about is investing in young leaders and helping to raise up young people in ministry particularly and in the local church and the mission field, church planters.

I think a lot of it comes from just how grateful I am, as we mentioned earlier, you know, like people that did that for me that helped me see something that I would not have seen and modeled something I would not have understood and and just kind of gently nudged me along. And I just see how powerful that is. And then the more you do leadership kind of investments, the longer you do it, the more it fuels you because you get to hear those stories. You get to see that.

When I was in Bible college, I was on choir tour, Dave. We were Minnesota Bible College. We were touring in Canby, Minnesota, meaning and in spring break you'd get the choir, you'd get on a bus and go all over and sing at all these churches. And the preacher's son was Jeremy Allard. I hope he's listening to this. And he was probably seventh grade, sixth grade at the time, and I don't know why, but someone had told me, "You could be a preacher someday."

So I see this kid, the preacher's kid, I've known Jeremy his whole life from camp, and I just put my hand on him. Here I am a college kid, what do I know? I don't know anything. I put my hand on his shoulder and said, "Jeremy, you know what? You, you would make an awesome youth pastor someday. The way you were just playing with those kids, you know, you would make a good youth pastor."

Well, doggone if that kid didn't grow up and become the most awesome youth pastor, and now he's leading a church and and he's a leader in the churches in Wisconsin and just an instrumental figure. And he tells that story. I don't really remember the event, but the point is at some point in your life, you move from finding gratification in shining to finding gratification in helping someone else shine. You shift from like wanting to hear someone tell you thank you for what you did to "Thank you for what you helped me do."

And I don't know when or how that happened, but that movement, what does Ferguson say? Dave Ferguson talks about like when you're coming up, you kind of just have all these instincts to be the hero, and at some point you start taking more joy in being a hero-maker. And that's what fuels me now is I kind of like this whole thing needs to be a movement of disciples who make disciples who make disciples, and that that happens only when some of us that have leverage and ability to to use influence start trying to just make it our number one job to to empower, encourage, raise up, fan the flame, do the Paul to Timothy thing over and over again. "Timothy, all the things you've heard in me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will be qualified to teach others."

So, I just think I'm so grateful for those who've done that for me, and I've I think the more I do it, the more I love it. And I kind of liken it, Dave, to you remember that story in the Old Testament, Eli? Eli and Samuel. Samuel's there, he can't, you know, he keeps waking up in the middle of the night, you know, the Lord's calling out to him, "Samuel!" He's like goes over to Eli, "Yes, sir. What do you need?" And Eli's like, "I didn't call you. Go back to bed, boy." And he does and happens three times. And finally Eli puts it together and he says to Samuel, "Samuel, I think God's trying to get a hold of you. Next time God tries to get your attention, pay attention."

And so sure enough, God finally says, "Samuel!" And Samuel's like, "Yes, Lord." And I feel like that's the role every pastor and every mature Christian should have, is that Eli role like, "You need to listen because I think God's trying to get your attention." And I think God is calling a lot of people to ministry and there's so many other voices, "Come do this, come do that," and I think we need to just play the role of Eli and say, "You need to pay attention because I think God might be up to something in your life." And so I just think, yeah, there's a lot more I could say there, but that's probably enough for what you want to hear.

But I mean, do you remember Lynn Gardner at Lincoln Christian University? He was a good old another generation guy. He used to say...

Dave Stone: At Ozark?

Ben Cachiaras: I think he was at Lincoln, but I can't remember for sure.

Dave Stone: He's my uncle, so.

Ben Cachiaras: So you remember him then! So I think he was at Ozark. But yes, no, I can't wait to hear this story.

Dave Stone: Dave, I think you're mistaken. I think I know more about your uncle than you do. He said we have to decide what was his quote? We have to decide if we're going to be like an old dog or an old horse. Did you ever hear this before?

Dave Stone: No, I can't wait to hear.

Ben Cachiaras: The old dog growls because it doesn't want the young dog to steal its bone. But the old horse is just glad to have another young horse to help carry the load and see how important it is to train up a young horse and say, "Come alongside me, I'll teach you how to do it."

So it's like, wow. I just someone said that to me a while back and I just, I want to be an old horse that's like, "Come on, you know, get your yoke here, let me show you what I know." So our church has become this teaching hospital, you know, where it's a hands-on learning lab. Every leader in our church has an apprentice. We got this big connection with Milligan University. We've got like, I think, 10 interns right now and they're all harnessing up to somebody in all these different areas.

And that's how, you know, we just got to be about that. Yeah, we just got to be about that. Develop leaders. You know, all of tomorrow's leaders, you know where they are right now? They're undisciplined, undeveloped, inexperienced, unorganized, chaotic, unpolished, you know, bad work ethic, unrealistic expectation, don't communicate well. They're raw, in your church right now waiting for someone to recognize their passion and capacity just like Jesus did with his 12. You know, those guys were just nothing but a bunch of knuckleheads, and so are we. So go find some and don't praise the perfection in them, praise any progress you see and they're going to lead us tomorrow, so we might as well invest in them today. So that's how I look at it and I just think it's been really a joy for me because it keeps me fresh, keeps me young and I learn as much from them, you know, as being around other pastors and our younger staff as you do hanging around old people like you.

Dave Stone: I love what you just said because that would be a great soundbite of this episode because it really does show that's where every one of us were when we started in ministry. It's where we stayed in a lot of those categories for a number of years in ministry. It was only because somebody gave us a chance and came alongside of us.

I'm thinking of times where people gave me an opportunity at my first church, did an internship with Wayne Smith and he took me alongside of him on different visits and I learned how to interact with people. I learned people skills from him. Then I go to my next ministry and a guy allows me to preach on Sunday nights, Dave Cordray, at a church in Louisville, and just poured into me and and allowed me that opportunity when, you know, I had no business. I was 20 years old preaching three out of four Sunday nights and he allowed me that opportunity. And then Bob Russell, I could tell example after example of just fanning that flame and giving me opportunities when it would have been much easier for him to do it. But he he saw something that I needed to develop and and gain that experience.

It's interesting what you said about how we can try to be making a name for ourselves, but when we start to put the spotlight on building the kingdom or making Jesus' name famous, it's it's so different. Ben, I've found being a dad that that's easier for me to do at times with my kids, my adult children, than it is for me to do within the church because I get my ego involved in it. But when it's outside of that with my kids, it's a little easier for me to do that.

I'm thinking about a cool opportunity that Sam and I had to play golf with someone and spend the day in a very private setting, and I I said, "You know, I'm going out of town. I could have changed my flights." He said, "Just change your flights." I said, "You know, I'm going to be with Beth. We're going to go out a day earlier for some place I'm speaking." And I intentionally said no to it because I wanted my son to have that those moments. And to hear my son talk about that day and I mean, he knew what I did, but to hear my son talk about that day was so special because it really was one of those special times of just quiet conversation for them for four and a half hours.

And that's what we need to do with those who are younger within our church, to look for those opportunities. "Hey, come alongside of me," or "Let me give you this opportunity." And, "Well, you know, I'm scared to death. I don't know if I can do that." "Well, take a chance at it. Let's see. Let's see how you do with it." And that's when I think God does his best work, is when we entrust to other reliable men or women those opportunities.

Ben Cachiaras: That's so good, Dave. And I like what you said there, too, because for me it has been when you're likening it to your kids, you describe the feeling you got when you gave that away, that experience that you years ago might have said, "Oh, Beth, look what I get to do," because you were kind of still experiencing some of that stuff. You exchanged that previous feeling for the new one. And I know there's like this altruistic sense where we're building the kingdom and we're just going to sacrifice ourselves and and let the younger generation shine.

There's got to be some of that. But I'll be honest, for me, I've just replaced the joy. I still get as much kick and joy, but I just somehow I get as much kick out of seeing someone kind of get it or have that opportunity. And I think the more we can say that is the win now. I don't know if that makes sense, but I've kind of just learned to enjoy seeing them shine as much as... And I think some of that comes with age, you know.

How old are you, Ben?

I'm 61 just screaming, screaming towards 62 so fast you can hardly believe it.

Dave Stone: And yet you trash me as if I'm some dinosaur over here. I'm 64.

Ben Cachiaras: Well, Dave, you look a lot older, though. You behave older. You think older. You're an old soul.

I'm going to I'm going to throw this in, Dave, because it helped me and it was that research by I think it's Arthur Brooks who talks about the difference between fluid intelligence and crystallized intelligence. Where and it's just like the different ways that your brain tends to process and work at different ages and stages of your life. And when you're younger, you have what he calls that fluid intelligence or like that's the Sherlock Holmes brain, where you're like solving problems and you're you're solving a puzzle, you're learning something new, and you're that's what you do when you're 20, 30, 40. You're you're building all that.

But they've learned the research that that kind of problem-solving climbing part of your brain actually starts declining after like you hit like 35 or so it declines. But what starts improving and increasing is what they call crystallized intelligence, where you're using all that accumulated knowledge, what the Bible would call wisdom and experience, and you recognize patterns. You kind of, "Well, I've seen something similar to this." And all you're doing...

So, I don't know that it's so noble to say, "Way, wow, we're investing in leaders at our age, Dave," but it's kind of what needs to happen and wants to happen and is natural. Your cup has been filled to life experiences, pain, wisdom has just come. And so it's so natural to want to share that.

And turns out that some of the things that are very, very seemingly like, "Well, yeah, that's a real obvious thing," to someone who's been around the barn for 40 or 50 years is pretty valuable wisdom to someone who's 24 or 27 or starting their first ministry. So for me, I think also just like that's the way God designed it and it's all over the Bible, old helping the younger especially. You don't get wise just by getting old, but you can't get real wise without being a little old and you got to have some experience.

And so that's part of what I think I've really taken joy in is like, "Hey, my brain naturally is at the place where I'm not supposed, I don't have to feel like I got to keep up with the young guys and impress with all the stuff I'm learning." I'll just be the old sage, the old wise guy and just kind of say, "Well, I got an idea, I got a thought on that," and it's really welcome and needed.

Dave Stone: One thing I love about you, Ben, you probably can tell listeners that Ben is as upbeat, as fun, as positive as can be about ministry. I asked a question beforehand of most of the guests, I'll say, "Hey, is there anything that I can kind of help promote for you?" You know, is there a book? We promote a lot of books on here, we promote a variety of different podcasts or programs. And I loved what Ben said. I said, "What can I promote for you?" And he said, "Nothing. I just want to come on to promote the health of the church."

And in a world that is always lobbying and leveraging their position for something that has some selfish gain or maybe some material side to it, I just appreciated the fact that Ben, that's not what your primary purpose is and you see it as just promoting church health. And you've done that at Mountain for three decades.

One of the unique features of the church that I want you to elaborate on and tell us a little bit more about is that of the community center and how it is that you call it EPICENTER. I'll let you talk about it because I think we'll have so many listeners who would say, "Boy, that would be something for us to check out and perhaps we could do something like that at our church."

Ben Cachiaras: Well, I'm happy to talk about, I'm very always very excited to talk about the EPICENTER, which is a community center which is part of our church and literally located in some of our campuses, but is a separate 501(c)(3), to put it in those terms, that kind of operates alongside that allows us to do what every church wants to do in their community, which is meet needs exactly like Jesus did.

Just in a holistic way. Jesus came not only preaching the kingdom of God, you know, he was like binding up wounds and healing the sick and meeting physical needs and it was all part of this beautiful restoring work that God brings in the kingdom of God and Jesus embodies that. And every church wants to do that. And so we try to find ways to do it. This is the best way we've found to do it.

So the idea of the EPICENTER, it began really we have a close partnership with a tremendous group out of Africa mostly, Missions of Hope International. Some of you maybe know about Wallace and Mary Kamau. And they're just doing this tremendous work in the slums of Nairobi and they're meeting needs of the community. We began to, we had such a great relationship with them, we learned how they did that. They went into the community, they listened to the needs, they went door to door, they took surveys, they over time then put together a way to use the resources of the community to help the community look more like a flourishing community as Jesus intends.

And it's changing these dark slums in the inner city Nairobi and we literally just said, "Well, why couldn't we use as much of that as possible right here in our own backyard?" And that's really what kind of happened. 2013, we set out to launch this first attempt at it. We called it the EPICENTER. We went to a place where we were launching our next campus which was, you know, just to be honest, kind of the had a reputation in the community as being the other side of the tracks. Sort of a "don't go there." Realtors didn't show houses there when new people moved to the community, you know, you don't want to go there. And we said, "No, this is exactly where Jesus would be."

And let's make it the epicenter of God's activity, not a place nobody goes. Let's make it a hub of community at a place to gather and belong and find hope in Jesus. And so in our minds, Dave, we had this like story that we just saw and felt and it was a story of a kid, maybe he's like 11 or 12. He's a good kid, but he's been handed like a bad script in life. A script that as far as he knows is his only option. Like he's supposed to act out these these are his lines, he has no choice. He just does what he's handed and maybe his dad isn't around, so he's lacking some good role models there. His the biggest influence in his life might be a bunch of older boys who are kind of on the wrong track themselves and maybe that script has some gangs and drugs in it and low expectations for finishing high school and low aspirations to being a real contributor to society. Probably doesn't really envision life past 30. That's a really common script in this area.

But then he but then he hears about a place and they play some ball after school and somebody said, "Well, yeah, you can come. It's wide open, it's free. Come on." And he begins to go and he starts to hang out and now he goes to that place and before long he's got some people that he knows and they know him. And he meets this old guy named Joe who's, you know, he's old but he's pretty good at hoops and he takes an interest in the guy and the kid and then pretty soon they're sharing stories and he's making friends and slowly you start to see, you know, some new lines in the script and it leads to an other flurry of relationships and now he's connected to some of the programs in this thing and one day somebody knows him well enough to say, "You're smart." He's never heard that before in his life. He begins to think maybe I can graduate high school and maybe I can do lots of things. And before he gets some tutoring through this program, some mentoring, some investment and engagement.

And then he connects with the church and now he's in student ministries, which leads him to Sunday morning worship services, which draws in his younger siblings and his mom who really need a place of community and support. And before long they're all connected, they're all in a different path and he does graduate high school and he goes to college and he heads off to do exactly what God designed him to do rather than follow that other script. And then he comes home and he volunteers at the EPICENTER because he wants to help kids who are good kids with a bad script.

And I'm just telling you, that was in our mind, Dave, and that has happened. That exact story with a few variations and names that have changed has happened hundreds and hundreds of times over the last 13 years and thousands of people for whom the EPICENTER started as a place but became people, it became hope in this holistic way.

Heaven will tell a story of so many of them that came to Christ because of that and family trees changed forever. So we give out food, but we do it in a dignified way, you know, like educational way. Someone told us that when you're in poverty, you only hear your name like three times a year. And someone comes in there, they're going to get eye contact and someone has memorized their name and will say their name three times in one visit.

So whether you're coming for recovery, AA, NA, a shower, because most a lot of these people just need a good shower, clothing, shoes, finding a job, applying for jobs, you're out of prison, you need to find work, regain employment, ex-offenders, health care, all of this stuff. We're connected to a Choose Hope Women's Center and it just goes on and on. And guess what? The community wants to be part of it in the way they never want to be a part of our church. They love our church, they appreciate and respect our church. They love the EPICENTER. They're like, "Come to our community. Come here. What can we do? We'll give you government money to do what you're doing." And I just think, you know, Acts says Jesus went around doing good and it's helped us to do that and I love that.

Dave Stone: Matthew 25. You can't read Matthew 25 and not think of your community center: "When did you see me poor? When did you see me without clothes, without food? In prison?" All of those different things. And if you did it for one of the least of these, you've done it for me.

I want to go one step deeper in that. We have people who are listening right now who as you're sharing this story, their heart is beating faster and they're thinking, "Oh, we could do something like that." What's step one for a church that would like to do something and and get more involved in making a difference in the community?

Ben Cachiaras: Find where God's at work and jump on board. Find where you, because there's plenty of nonprofits that do good things and there's plenty of churches that are doing Jesus-y things. And if you can find someone who's doing both, they love Jesus and Jesus is getting out, but they're also meeting real needs. Partner with them. Come alongside them and and help your church find ways to be like their best supporters and your church may not have a ton of money to go start a community center tomorrow. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. But if you don't, the resource you do have is people.

And those people are looking, you know, especially young people, they're looking for a purpose. They're looking for some way to make a difference and some of them are going to be tickled pink if you ask them to hand out a bulletin at the front door. But some of them need to be challenged like, "Would you tutor a kid after school? This ministry over here is doing it. Would you help restock the shelves so that when people come in hoping there's food for them, that there is?"

So I think helping connect your people to ministries that you see in your community. And they're there if you look. And then you be the fuel through the people in your church and and I think that's the first step. And that's what we did. And then eventually we we realized we were in a place where we could start something of our own to come alongside other good ministries as well. But partnership and finding where God's already doing great stuff and just saying, "We're going to, we don't have to invent anything, we're just going to come here and help and encourage and support you," has been a real key for us.

Dave Stone: Well, you are rewriting the scripts and you're adding lines in there and it's going to ripple on through all eternity, not just at Mountain Christian but also through the young leaders that you're pouring into and what your EPICENTER community centers are doing around in your campuses.

I love the fact, Ben, that you are making such a difference, and one of the things that you're trying to do is to get people so that these younger leaders can be growing and the teams can work together, staff teams can come together. I find that a lot of staffs, they don't interact except when they're in meetings at church. I know you you do some work with Spire, Spire Conference and Spire Network. I know you've got a conference coming up September, at the end of September. Tell me a little bit more about it because I think you did some of the stuff with programming for that.

Ben Cachiaras: Spire is a fantastic network of resources for churches and one of the highlights and centerpieces is this conference, Dave. Yeah, you've been there, you know about it. It's this year, it's an annual conference and everyone's invited. If you if you love the church and you want inspiration for you and your team, you will love the Spire Conference. It's September 29th through October 1st, that's a Tuesday to Thursday, with some fantastic pre-conference stuff that really goes into like if you're an executive pastor or a campus pastor or a worship pastor or a youth pastor. There's like a focused opportunity to really drill deep with a bunch of others who kind of wear the same hat you do.

Our team has gone and really, really just comes away it's a highlight of our year. There's a lot of good conferences out there. But what I think they love about Spire is they come away with names in their phone that they're calling later and they become friends and they're like, "Hey, how are you guys handling, what are you saying about this big Easter push?" or just having friends in ministry.

And then our team gets to experience all this together and and you're right, Dave, they it's not a meeting, it's like it's a retreat, they're having fun, the sessions are packed with just great inspiration. But then there's a lot of the Spire Conference because there's there's space to goof off and there's an after party where we're just going to laugh. We have a comedian coming in this year, Andrew Stanley's coming in this year.

And the speakers are top-tier. You know, we got John Ortberg in the past, we've had like Levi Lusko and Craig Groeschel and Max Lucado, Kyle Idleman, Mindy Caliguire, those kind of names. But in addition, there's always like, "I don't even, I've never heard this person, but that was so amazing," and I think I love that too as much as the big names you know, it's some of the people you get to meet and then the interaction.

And so this year it's in Indianapolis and kind of in the heartland of the country, and I would just be so tickled. And you'll be there, I'll be there, people could meet you and I'd be happy to say hi as well. Go to spire.network and register, and we would love to have you as our guest at Spire. You won't regret it. It'd be the one of the best investments you could make in your staff and your team.

Dave Stone: Exactly. I couldn't agree more. We'll put that in the show notes. And I appreciate everything that you do in your volunteer efforts to get the gospel out there, but also to pour into these leaders. So, thank you for the difference you're making. Ben, we love you, we appreciate you. Thank you so much for taking the time to join with us today. We all benefited from it.

Ben Cachiaras: It's been great, Dave. Thank you so much. God bless.

Dave Stone: Well, I love any chance that I get to talk to Ben and he has been such a great role model for me when it comes to parenting and parenting with adult children and also just teaching your kids the benefit of ministry and of loving the church. And he's done that extremely well.

Ministry really does have a way of consuming us little by little, and so we have to be intentional about spending time with kids and I really appreciated him driving that point home. And at some point in your ministry and in your life, we do need to make that move that he talked about, that move from finding gratification in shining to instead finding gratification in helping someone else to shine. And Ben has done that really well. He has made that shift and there's a lot of people that that I know that need to make that shift and Ben has done it well.

A lot of voices in ministry call out to leaders, but you need to pay attention to the voice of the Lord. And I felt like he did that as he shared about the EPICENTER and just the difference that they're making in that community and how it is that they're reaching out to people that are often overlooked, neglected, and under-resourced. So, that's a great challenge for all of us.

And it kind of leads into the story that I want to share with you. The story that I want to share comes from Carl Kuhl, and Carl wrote a book a number of years ago. Carl spells his last name K-U-H-L. But he wrote a book called *Bloodstained Pews*. And he tells the story of what was the impetus for that and how it is that Jesus originally intent for the church is that we should be a hospital for the broken and a haven for the hurting. And that was at the epicenter of what it was that Ben shared with us: that's what the church should be.

But let me read you what Carl Kuhl writes in his book, *Bloodstained Pews*. He says, "In World War II, when the carnage of war broke out on D-Day, two medics brought wounded soldiers into an empty nearby church in Angoville, France. And they laid them on the church pews to tend to them and to treat their wounds. When the war was over and the citizens in town came back into the church that had basically become a triage unit, the people in the community saw the bloodstained pews.

And they did something unusual. They decided to preserve the stains rather than to remove them. And they said it was left there, those bloodstains on the pews, to remind all who would come afterwards that this is the place where the hurting can come, this is the place where the wounded can heal, this is the place where the suffering are welcome."

And that's what we want in our churches. That should be a description of every single church, not just Ben's church in Baltimore, but your church as well. A safe place for the struggling and for those striving to allow the Lord to transform their weaknesses into strengths, their wounds into battle scars that God has healed. So admit your weakness and let God use it to His glory. It's part of your story. But if we're not careful, we can become more consumed with protecting our image rather than building His kingdom.

I enjoyed getting to have that talk with Ben. He's done some amazing things for his community. He does a wonderful job establishing and growing healthy church communities and also pouring into younger leaders. If you'd like to grow healthy church communities as well, check out the Spire Conference that Ben alluded to several times. You'll be encouraged and equipped with the knowledge to be a better leader. There's registration information for the Spire Conference in the show notes and I think Ben has a special link there that you can click on.

Well, as always, thanks so much for listening to Pastor to Pastor. We drop a brand-new episode every Tuesday. It's designed to encourage, inspire, and to challenge you because we know leadership can be lonely. And that's why we call this Pastor to Pastor. It's for a reason. It's to remind you, you're not alone. So until next time, I'm Dave Stone, saying God bless.

Jim Daly: I firmly believe that God gives us the responsibility to train our children in His ways. And that's a huge responsibility. What Focus on the Family did was give us the resources to do it.

I'm Jim Daly. When we work together, we can transform our nation one family at a time. Make a monthly pledge today at focusonthefamily.com/families.