Pastor to Pastor

Dave Stone: Your church comes to you each week to fill their cup. But when the crowd leaves, who's filling yours? That's exactly what I'm here to do with my new podcast from Focus on the Family. It's called Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. I'm so excited to help you navigate the unique challenges that pastors face in their ministry journey, both personally and professionally. So, I invite you to listen and subscribe to Pastor to Pastor, wherever you get your podcasts.

Dave Stone: When you have a real, genuine, authentic relationship with Christ, it is winsome. The Christ in you attracts others to him. But it goes beyond how you live. It's what you say. You'll find that being proactive in sharing your faith with others will make you a better leader.

Dave Stone: Hey everybody, welcome to Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. I am your host, Dave Stone. Thank you for joining us today. And if you haven't already, make certain that you subscribe to Pastor to Pastor, wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if this podcast has served you in any way, let us know by leaving us a review. You can follow us on Instagram at Pastor to Pastor Podcast. You can like or comment or subscribe on YouTube at the Focused Pastor Channel.

Dave Stone: Also, check out all of the Focus on the Family's content on GodCaster. Now, GodCaster is a new live stream platform where you can listen to Christian music and the daily Christian podcasts and radio resources that Focus on the Family produces. And finally, if this conversation blesses you, please share it with someone else. Maybe it's another ministry leader, perhaps it's a committed Christian, maybe it's someone who's going through a difficult time and something that's said will lift their spirits. Just share this episode with them. And we'll be grateful, and they'll be encouraged.

Dave Stone: Once each quarter, we take a break from having a guest and I try to pour into you in some specific area. And we've done one on weddings, we've done one on funerals, we did one on learning names. And also, we did one on great communication. But today, I want to talk about leadership. I want you to wrestle with five questions that I believe every Christian leader must answer. And if each of these five questions were written in Greek, they would be in the present tense. In other words, it's ongoing action. Because throughout your ministry, you're going to have to keep answering these same questions.

Dave Stone: So, feel free to take this talk and improve on it and use it with your lay leaders or with your staff. I'm certain you can make it a whole lot better.

Dave Stone: Question number one: What do I truly believe? I want to make certain that your role in Christian leadership is something that you wholeheartedly buy into. You can't do this effectively if your heart isn't in it. And so it all comes back to your beliefs. You are buying into the essentials of the faith. And belief is the foundation of your Christian life and leadership.

Dave Stone: I think it was about 35 years ago, I took up playing golf, and I was quickly fascinated with how far a good golfer could hit a golf ball. And being young and limber at the time, my drives went pretty far. I just never knew exactly where they were going to end up. But soon after picking up the sport, I played golf with a man named Bill Etschkorn. I was 27, Bill was almost 70. And on the first tee, I outdrove him by 50 yards. I thought to myself, hey, this isn't even going to be close today.

Dave Stone: And it wasn't. Bill beat me by 10 strokes. This older gentleman could only hit the ball 170 yards, but it was always straight down the middle, right where he was aiming. And that day, I learned an important truth that every golfer eventually discovers. And that is that direction is more important than distance. It may be more exciting to a spectator to see how far someone hits the ball, but it's more important where they hit it.

Dave Stone: And the same is true when a person first comes to faith. As they begin to walk in that faith and to interact with Christians in the church community, at first, they notice the behavior of a mature Christian. What they do and don't do stands out to the new believer. But eventually, you begin to realize that the outward actions are a reflection of an inner commitment. Just as direction is more important than distance, beliefs are more important than behavior because your behavior is an out-growth of your beliefs.

Dave Stone: Now, I realize we may disagree on some secondary doctrines or have differing opinions on preferences of leadership styles or worship styles. But there are two beliefs that are paramount. First, that the Bible is God's infallible word. The Bible isn't a smorgasbord. Second Timothy chapter 3:16 and 17 says, all Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Dave Stone: And the second thing I want you to see is that Jesus is the only way to heaven. John 14:6, Jesus says, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. And the message of Jesus draws a line in the sand. It's not one of many, it's not a lot of spokes on a wheel. It's it's one. And it has to stand against every other world religion. And we have to unwaveringly hold the line on that belief.

Dave Stone: Bob Vernon was the former assistant police chief of the LAPD. And he talked about a concept called parallel lines. He said, this is where culture lives and we we try to have the police live at at this level that is higher than where the culture lives. And he said, it's no different for the church. The church should live at an even higher level than what the culture is. But he said, there's this concept of parallel lines. Because what happens is, as society is going along, all of a sudden they they slip a little bit. And society lowers its standard. And what happens is, if we're not careful, we do too. The church slips with them. And so as they begin to dip, we begin to dip.

Dave Stone: We call that the concept of parallel lines. Our culture sinks and caves and compromises, and the church follows suit and lowers her standards and expectations. Oh, don't get me wrong. The church will still be higher standard-wise than where the world is. It's just that when they slip, we slip a little. And what I'm saying to you today as a Christian leader is, we can't slip. We have to have firm convictions.

Dave Stone: Well, here's question number two: Ask yourself this question, How can I reach the lost? First Timothy chapter 4:16, Paul says, watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them. Because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. So, it begins with your example. When you have a real, genuine, authentic relationship with Christ, it is winsome. The Christ in you attracts others to him. But it goes beyond how you live, it's what you say. You'll find that being proactive in sharing your faith with others will make you a better leader.

Dave Stone: Do you remember when Jonah was running from God and then he had three days inside a fish to think about it? Do you remember how he reluctantly preached to the city of Nineveh? The people of this violent, decadent city had become so numb and their hearts were so hardened that they were spiritually clueless until their hearts were pierced by preaching and touched by God's Spirit. Until Jonah preached the word, a message of repentance, they didn't even realize that they were lost and that they were heading toward destruction and the wrath of God.

Dave Stone: Last March, after a long day of travel, I had had a long time, a late night mental lapse and I I left my laptop on a flight from Louisville to Baltimore. And before I even made it to the rental car place, I had called the airlines and realized what I'd done. I'd turned it into lost and found and made that request. I did everything I could to get it back before anyone learned of my absentmindedness. But after a couple of days, I had to explain to friends and family why I was without that slender silver machine that is my frequent companion.

Dave Stone: I thought that my family members and close friends would be sympathetic to my plight. But they were downright brutal to me. How in the world could you forget your computer on a plane? I thought I gave them some pretty convincing reasons. But they openly mocked me with insensitive comments, calling me Mr. Magoo or calling me the Absent-Minded Professor. They even stooped so low as to start calling me Dementia Dave.

Dave Stone: Didn't matter that my grandmother had had dementia. Didn't matter that my dad had had dementia. Now they were claiming that I had it. And while God is gracious and merciful, abounding in love and grace, my family and friends are not. The only encouragement I received from them was they were all quite certain that the airlines would find my laptop and return it to me. Well, after about 14 days, I gave up hope. I had to break down and and buy a new laptop and have someone reload over 4,000 Word documents. How embarrassing. What a hassle. I wasn't as confident as my buddies that I'd ever see that laptop again.

Dave Stone: But fast forward about nine to ten months later. It was January 1st. I had flown into Phoenix late the night before to attend the Fiesta Bowl with my son. Halfway through the game, we were having a great time. I got a text message from the lady who helps me with all of my IT and computer issues. She wrote, Dave, I just got a weird voicemail here in the IT office saying that they have found your laptop. But I wanted to see if it was a scam because it sounded a little sketchy. I replied, Oh, no, no, no. It's not sketchy. That's that's the one I lost ten months ago. I can't believe they found it. Yes, by all means, call them and and see what I have to do to get it back. I was so happy to have it located.

Dave Stone: But it was the next message that was rather troubling to me. Because she texted me and she said, yes, it was an airline calling saying that they found it on a plane in Phoenix. And I thought, huh, that's strange. What are the odds that would turn up nine months later, 2,000 miles away from the Baltimore airport where I lost it, and how fortunate that I flew into Phoenix late last night.

Dave Stone: And instantly, I began to replay in my mind my exit off of the plane the night before. And I started to feel sick to my stomach. And then somewhere in the distance, I could hear Britney Spears singing, oops, I did it again. There I sat, surrounded by tens of thousands of fans, and yet I felt like I was in my very own little personal Alzheimer's unit. I was 50% embarrassed and 50% grateful. I I couldn't wait for that game to end. Because until I had that laptop in my grasp, I wouldn't rest. And when I made it to the airport, and they gave it to me, I offered to give the lady $20 and a hug. She took the money, she rejected the hug.

Dave Stone: I want you to try to put yourself in my shoes when I started getting those text messages and when reality sunk in of my repeat performance. One minute before, I had been having the time of my life, enjoying the game with my son without a care in the world. Why? Because I was oblivious to my own dilemma. You see, when it came to my laptop, I didn't know it was lost until it was found.

Dave Stone: And if you think about it, that's a perfect description of the Ninevites. That's why God sent this reluctant prophet named Jonah to turn their hearts toward God to save them. And where sin abounds, grace abounds. I didn't know it was lost until it was found. Is also a description of what will happen with some of your neighbors, and friends, and relatives, and people who come to your church. They won't realize what they were saved from until they swallow their pride and they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and they receive His amazing grace.

Dave Stone: And maybe you were reluctant when you were called into ministry or sent to where it is that you're currently serving. And you wanted to run the other way. But you didn't, and you're there. Pouring into the youth, preaching your heart out, discipling people who before had never opened a Bible. You're there serving in some Christian ministry or non-profit where the soil that you are tilling is is quite hard and the crop seems rather small. But God may be on the verge of doing something phenomenal. The stage is being set. So keep being Christ's hands and feet.

Dave Stone: You know, Satan would love for you to look at your carnal neighbor and just to shake your head at how lost they are. He'd love for you to get to the point where you have little to no interaction with non-believers. And in those moments, when you start to feel like you're better than others, then perhaps you haven't owned your own sin and you don't fully realize how sinful you are compared to a pure and holy God.

Dave Stone: Hey, if you're not the worst sinner that you know, then maybe you're not being honest with yourself. Isaiah chapter 64:6 says that compared to God, our righteous acts are like filthy rags. So please don't look down at others with a spiritual air or a smug piety or false humility. Remember that Jesus saved his harshest criticism for the religious leaders of his day.

Dave Stone: Sometimes we can look at those who haven't embraced faith or who openly reject Christ as the enemy. But remember this, they are not the enemy. They are victims of the enemy. And our fight is not against flesh and blood. Our fight is against the powers and principalities of this dark world. Romans chapter 1:16 says, for I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes. First to the Jew, and then to the Gentile.

Dave Stone: Look at that verse. You are not the power. I am not the power. The gospel is the power.

Dave Stone: Question number three: Am I willing to work with others? My guess is that a lot of you have been in some other line of work, maybe before you went into ministry, or maybe even while you're still working in ministry now. But whether you're a lay leader, or you happen to be on a church staff, or a ministry organization, there's a reason you're in the ministry. It's probably not because it's so lucrative, it's probably not the money. So, why are you in some type of of ministry? Well, a career is what you're paid for, but a calling is what you're made for. What were you made for?

Dave Stone: Part of being in ministry is learning to work with others, with volunteers, with other staff. It means humbling yourself and not always having to be in the spotlight. You know, in the kingdom of God, you you never get any higher than the position of a servant. Jesus was constantly driving home this message to his closest followers. This would be another distinctive of his leadership legacy, that the way to the top is to actually serve at the bottom.

Dave Stone: Matthew chapter 23:12 says, for those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted. And sometimes leaders can become so focused on advancing their own personal agenda that they lose sight of the big picture. They lose sight of what is a win. There are too many Christians who are consumed with trying to build their kingdom rather than building his kingdom.

Dave Stone: And over time your humility coupled with a willingness to sacrifice your own desires will advance the mission of the team. So check your ego at the door. You're in ministry to make Christ's name famous. Not yours.

Dave Stone: Well, here's the fourth question: Fourth question for Christian leaders that we need to ask ourselves is, Who's got my back? It's foolish to try and lead by yourself. But you're not alone. The Lord says in Hebrews chapter 13:5, I will never leave you, I will never abandon you or or forsake you. Romans chapter 8 says, nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Dave Stone: Remember the times that he's been faithful. Think back to those, call back to those moments in ministry, those those legends of the faith who have impacted your life. And remember that God's got your back. But also remember that sometimes you need someone with skin on them. You need a flesh and blood person beside you. Last year, I'd been out of town for about four days. And when I returned home, I was talking to my four-year-old grandson. I said, Buddy, I I missed you so much. And I paused, but he didn't say anything back to me. Evidently, he didn't realize the the proper response was that he was supposed to say just how much he missed me.

Dave Stone: So I reverted to leading the witness and I said it again. I said, hey, buddy, I really missed you. Did you miss me? And he said, no, not not really. And with pain in my voice, I said, really? He said, you know, Papa D, when you leave town, he said, I've got other friends. I would have been hurt if I wasn't so happy. Because I want him to have other friends. My experience in leading is that deep friendships are hard to come by. And if you don't start investing early, leadership can become quite lonely. And that's when you become an easy target for the enemy. You begin to question people's motives. So does your spouse. They just want to be close for job security, because even your spouse will wonder why people are are getting close to them. And they'll try to buddy up so that their pet project is still there in the years to come.

Dave Stone: I think it was about four years ago, following a mission trip to Kenya, my wife and I stayed an extra day and we went on a safari there in Africa. We both love to see wild animals, and it probably stems from me serving as a student pastor for four years. Thus the wild animals. But it was exciting. And for me, the most impressive animal to see is a lion. When you see a lion in the wild, that majestic mane surrounding its face, the speed in which they run, the strength, there's nothing like it.

Dave Stone: Now, lions are capable of eating just about any animal. They're not really picky, the more meat, the better. Well, we we came around a corner and here sits this beautiful male lion. And our guide stopped the Jeep and we sat there mesmerized for about 30 minutes, and we were probably about 80 yards away from it. And we were getting ready to leave when all of a sudden a big, out of shape water buffalo came loping along, and he starts heading right in the direction of the lion. And we thought, oh no. That lion's going to eat this dude. This is going to be something. He crouched down and he got low. He sees that buffalo, he's goes into that mode where you know everything is about to change. He crouches down.

Dave Stone: And I know that that lion is about to pounce on this slow, large couch potato. And he's about to provide a feast for his entire family. And in the background, I can hear a voice singing, it's the cycle, the circle of life. This is going to be a National Geographic moment. The lion is twice as fast, he's ten times more agile. His teeth can cut through anything. And at that very moment, the water buffalo sees the lion. But here's where the story takes an unusual turn.

Dave Stone: The buffalo continues walking toward the lion. And then out of nowhere, from a clump of trees, on both sides beside the buffalo, come two of his big, out of shape buddies. So now these three water buffalos start fanning out and they start moving closer and surrounding the lion. And when they're just about 30 yards away, the buffalo in the middle lets out a snort. And the king of the jungle gets up and fearfully trots away in the opposite direction. And we were stunned. And I said to the guide, uh, what just happened?

Dave Stone: He said, a lion can take down a water buffalo that is over four times his size. But when two or three buffalo are together, the lion loses his advantage and he has no choice but to retreat. First Peter chapter 5:8, be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. If you think that by yourself, if you think that you can be strong enough to face off against Satan, you are sadly mistaken. He will wreak havoc in your life. He will try and steal your family. He will rob you of your peace. I don't care if you are young and agile, or you are old and out of shape. Whether you're a long-time Christian believer, or you're a baby Christian, listen to me. It is easier for Satan to take you down or to pick you off when you are alone. It just is.

Dave Stone: And so like my grandson, you should have some other friends. And when it comes to Christian leaders falling, most of the time, they are not in an authentic community of other believers or others who understand the struggles of ministry. But if you have a couple of Christian friends who you do life with, who you check in with, well then it becomes more difficult and daunting for the devil. And he will have to flee because you are not alone. There are others who have your back. God created us in community and for community. So I'm asking you, who are your water buffalos? Who are your Christian friends? Who are you doing life with?

Dave Stone: Well, finally, question number five: Why do I do what I do? And we're not crazy about this question because this goes beneath the surface. It begins to dig into your motives. Where's your heart in the daily decisions you make? Is your behavior shaped by those who are watching, or from a desire to look and act like Jesus Christ? Is it to impress others, or is it to express Christ? And I realize that when you work at a a ministry or a church or a non-profit, it it can seem like you're living in a fishbowl. And there's a reason why it seems like that. It's because you are. People are watching you. And it truly does help your behavior. I'm a much nicer driver when I'm driving in Louisville, Kentucky. But you get me outside the region of the church where I've served for three decades, and I'm not all that nice because I I don't have a good reputation in those other cities. And so I'm not as concerned with what those drivers think of my impatience because it's outside of my fishbowl.

Dave Stone: So in order to examine our motives, we have to ask, why why do we lead? Do we enjoy the spotlight or the control? Do we get a rush that volunteers need my permission? Why do we serve? Why do we give? Are our motives pure? And when we give, can we really do what the Apostle Paul says and and give not reluctantly, but cheerfully? Sometimes it's planned and sometimes it's not.

Dave Stone: A couple years ago, my wife and I were staying at a hotel for a couple of nights in in Houston. And one night as we were leaving on that first night, I asked the gal at the front desk if she would like us to bring her something back. This is something we've kind of started doing a few years ago and the workers just kind of light up if they don't have a restaurant in the hotel. And so sometimes they'll say something, sometimes they won't. But this 40-something lady when I asked, she did not hesitate. She said, I want a Frosty, I want some chicken nuggets, and then she added, I like to dip the chicken nuggets in ranch dressing.

Dave Stone: So, as we headed out, we said, we got you covered. And she hollered out the door to us, don't forget the ranch dressing. I'm like, I won't, I won't, I promise. So it's kind of fun for us, we feel like we're going on an adventure for the employee and soon we returned with the goods. And when I brought it to her, she immediately said, first thing out of her mouth, did you get the ranch dressing? I said, yes ma'am, it's it's all in there. And she kind of grunted, thanks. And that was about it. And right there at the front desk, she started digging into her food.

Dave Stone: And after Beth and I went back to our rooms, we kind of started talking about it a little bit. And I said, you know that gal at the front desk, she really wasn't that appreciative. And Beth said, yeah, she made no offer to pay for her food even before or after, even though we were planning on getting it. And I said, she didn't act surprised when we offered, she acted like she expected someone to buy her food. And then Beth said, and before she even mumbled her thanks, she wanted to know if we remembered her ranch dressing.

Dave Stone: I don't know what we were expecting from her. I don't know if I was expecting her to walk us to our room personally and to say, you will never know. You will never know what your generous purchase of this frozen chocolate treat coupled with this ten-piece pile of poultry, you will never know what this means to me. In in the history of hotels, no weary traveler has ever displayed such generosity, unselfishness, and humility. Take me to the hotel pool and baptize me.

Dave Stone: To be honest, I don't know what we were expecting, but it wasn't, did you get the ranch dressing? And the more we analyzed her response or lack thereof, the more frustrated we both became. Finally, I I said to Beth, if that's the gratitude she shows, then I'm not going to offer to get her anything tomorrow night. No soup for you. But then there was this pause. And there was this silence. And finally, Beth broke the silence in that hotel room and she said, but you know, her response shouldn't determine our giving.

Dave Stone: She said, I mean, if it really is a gift, then we should give it to regardless of if she's appreciative or not. And she was right. What I'm saying is if I only give when I think the recipient will be grateful, then I'm probably giving for the wrong reason. If my motives are to receive a pat on the back or or recognition, then it's not truly a gift that I'm giving. It's more of a method for self-exaltation rather than a desire to bless someone.

Dave Stone: Here's how Webster defines a gift. A gift is something voluntarily transferred or given with no expectation or compensation in return. But we run into problems when we want to make our serving, loving, or giving contingent on how much appreciation, notoriety, or thanks we receive. You sponsor a kid at your church to go on a mission trip and you're secretly thinking, oh, maybe now his parents will offer their second home for us to take a short vacation to someday.

Dave Stone: Or you start double tithing and you think, I need to work that into a sermon somehow. Maybe the elders will finally give me a raise. Or you buy a Frosty and the large chicken nuggets and that person had better look me in the eyes and give a heartfelt thank you. But aren't you grateful that God didn't have any qualifiers or contingencies before he sent the gift of his son from heaven to earth? I'm glad that even before we surrendered our lives to Christ, he had already decided to gift us his gift regardless of our response. We love because he first loved us.

Dave Stone: But I wonder if at times from God's perspective, we seem ungrateful for his generosity. Hey God, nice of you to live a perfect life and pay for our sins on the cross and all. And oh yeah, and the eternal life thing, that's that's good, thanks for that too. But but when am I going to get a raise? Or at least have the church cover my health insurance. I mean, I'm waiting, I'm waiting. And at times our apathetic and selfish response to God's ultimate gift must sound to our Heavenly Father like we're saying, did you get the ranch dressing? When the proper response should be falling on our knees in worship and gratitude, to say what the Apostle Paul, thanks be to God for his indescribable gift. God's generosity should inspire us to be generous. The cure for selfishness is learning to let go, to trust God.

Dave Stone: Five questions that you have to wrestle with. I'm going to repeat them slowly. And you decide which one needs your attention. What do I truly believe? How can I reach the lost? Am I willing to work with others? Who's got my back? Why do I do what I do? You know, typically I I close out our our times together with a a story. But today I want to close with a prayer. Uh, and if you're driving, you can open your eyes. If you're riding, you can close your eyes. If you're in a Tesla, you can put it in self-driving mode, I guess. Uh, I've given you several stories today. You can choose one of those to be your story. But I'd like to just to just to close out just by by just praying for you. I just want you to imagine that it's just the two of us. And I'm in your office or out at a park bench somewhere, drinking coffee or eating lunch together. Let me just pray for you.

Dave Stone: Our Father in heaven, if there are people listening right now who have doubts or insecurities or uncertainties, if Satan has weaseled his way in, creating doubt in their mind or asking them to question core biblical beliefs, would you just come alongside of them? Would you show them that you are the truth? Would you teach them? Bring different people into their path that can shore up those beliefs? Lord, we know that Satan loves to use doubt, he loves to ask questions, but we also know that our faith can get stronger through those times of doubt. It takes us into a deeper study.

Dave Stone: And Lord, if someone is listening and uh maybe they haven't been a a team player, and they need to be a team player. Would you come alongside of them and and help them to do just that to to be an encourager to those who are on their team, and come alongside of them and help them. And Lord, if there are those who are trying to go through this ministry calling by themselves, and the higher they go, the lonelier they get. We know that leadership's lonely. Lord, would you bring some kindred spirits alongside of them? Would they reach out to some people and say, hey, I just need some people who will breathe life into me, who understand the pressures that I'm going through? I need a water buffalo. Someone who will be there beside me so that when Satan attacks, he will have to flee because he knows I'm not alone.

Dave Stone: And yes, Lord, your Holy Spirit is there for us. Teach us to rely upon your Spirit. To live by the Spirit, rather than working in the flesh. And Lord, would you cause us to look face to face at our motives? Why do I do what I do? And where there are inconsistencies or places where our heart is in the wrong place, where we're more worried about the applause of others than the applause of heaven, would you bring us back into trying to please you, rather than others? May we lead in such a way that people can tell that we have spent time with Jesus. It's in his name that we pray. Amen.

Dave Stone: As always, uh thanks so much for listening to Pastor to Pastor. We drop a brand new episode every Tuesday. It's designed to encourage, to inspire, and to challenge you. Because we know that leadership can be lonely, and we call this Pastor to Pastor for a reason. It's to remind you, you're not alone. Until next time, I'm Dave Stone, saying, God bless.

Dave Stone: Your church comes to you each week to fill their cup. But when the crowd leaves, who's filling yours? That's exactly what I'm here to do with my new podcast from Focus on the Family. It's called Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. I'm so excited to help you navigate the unique challenges that pastors face in their ministry journey, both personally and professionally. So, I invite you to listen and subscribe to Pastor to Pastor, wherever you get your podcasts.