Pastor to Pastor

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Dave Stone: But I do believe this. I believe that if Paul were alive today, he'd probably be posting on TikTok, on Instagram, on Facebook. He'd be going live because this is a vehicle to get the gospel out.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. I'm your host, Dave Stone. Thanks so much for joining us coming to you today from Colorado. Our studio out here in Colorado Springs, Focus on the Family. Hey, if you don't already, please subscribe to Pastor to Pastor wherever you listen to podcasts and follow us on Instagram @pastortopastorpodcast.

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Our guest today has lived out just about every role that you can occupy in ministry. His name is Jared Ellis. He's been a youth pastor, a worship leader, a ministry professor. He's planted a church, E2 in Sacramento. He served in Abilene. He served at Elevation Church. And he's a young guy. We're trying to have some younger guests this year.

He's 35 years old, but boy does he have a wealth of knowledge and experience for a guy who is his age. He was a single man in his 20s, didn't get married until a little bit later, and he and his wife, Trin, have battled infertility. And I know that for many of you all who are listening, you can relate to the pain of that.

Jared has also mastered the art of digital ministry through social media. There's a good chance that you've seen one of his reels. I've watched a bunch of them. This episode is going to be packed with things that I know each and every one of you can relate to and learn from. I enjoyed getting to know Jared, and he became a friend just in a very short time. Same thing's going to happen with you today. Listen in on my conversation.

Hey, Jared. Thank you so much. I've really looked forward to this. I've watched you on social media, and I'm excited to get to visit with you today.

Jared Ellis: And it's such an honor. I am so grateful to be on. You're a living legend and, yeah, I'm looking forward to the conversation.

Dave Stone: Well, I don't know about that part of it, but I am anxious to hear your story because it is a very compelling story. You grew up in New York. Where did you grow up in New York? And tell us a little bit about your upbringing.

Jared Ellis: Yeah, grew up, born and raised on Long Island, New York. So, Suffolk County, which is the east side of the island. And had a great upbringing. I mean, grew up in a Focus on the Family family. We had everything Dr. James Dobson's books. I grew up on Adventures in Odyssey, Plugged In magazine. I couldn't see a movie unless we had gone through Plugged In first.

So, we were a Focus on the Family family. Really strong faith background. My uncle was a church planter. My parents were deeply involved in the ministry. My dad was a PT, and so he kind of split time between church and his business. And I mean, you really can't get much better. Long Island's incredible because I was five minutes away from the beach, a train ride away from New York City, and everything in between. You get all four seasons. So, I loved Long Island and had an incredible upbringing.

Dave Stone: And I love what you just said about Focus on the Family because all of those great resources, we use those, still continue to use so many Focus on the Family ones. But we were the same way. If a movie came out and we were asking to see it, or in my case, our kids were asking to see it, I'd say, "Well, let me check it out on Plugged In. Let's make certain first." They said the word "butt" or "stupid." Do you remember those?

Jared Ellis: It would catch everything. Oh, every the smallest thing, they would catch it. And we would milk it for all it was worth. "I don't think you're going to be able to see it. You're 16 years old and they say the word 'stupid'." So, they're like, "Okay, okay, all right."

Dave Stone: So you grew up in New York. God put you in a really cool setting there, but you also had some tragedy and pain at a very young age. Talk to us a little bit about losing your father.

Jared Ellis: Yeah, when I was 11, my dad was diagnosed with leukemia. And my dad was like the picture of health. I mean, football playing in college, 6'1". I didn't get those genes, unfortunately. I got the short genes. But he was he was the picture of health.

And just kind of a crazy situation, got diagnosed with leukemia and it was pretty much nine months and he was gone. And it was tragic. It was shocking. When my dad died, I didn't just lose a father. I lost a version of God that I was raised to believe in. I was taught that God was a healer, that he was a good father, that he loves us.

And so, everything that I had been trained in theologically was now being put to the test in front of me. And it really caused just a downward spiral in my life. I mean, you lose your dad at that age, such a pivotal moment in a young man's life. Everything's changing. You're becoming more and more aware of yourself, and I just didn't have a father or his voice to really shape me.

And so, I just spiraled into all sorts of rebellion from age 11 to about 16. I mean, any type of sin, depravity I could get involved in, I got involved in it. And I was still in church because I grew up in a very strong Bible-believing, "we go to church whether you feel like it or not, you're going to be there." And so, I knew how to put on the show and pretend.

And I was gifted. I was a musician. And of course, if you're gifted in the church, "hey, we could still use you." And so, I played. I learned how to play instruments by what person didn't show up on the weekend. And so, if the drummer was missing, I had to learn how to play drums. If the guitarist was missing, I played guitar.

And yeah, throughout that season, just really struggled with believing in a God who would allow something like that to happen. And all of that changed when I was 16 years old and had a radical encounter with God. And that's where my life really turned around.

Dave Stone: Wow. Well, thank you for your honesty and your candidness because that's what we need to hear. We have people right now, Christian leaders who are listening to this and they're going through a rough season. Maybe it's a loss of someone. Maybe it's rejection from an elder board or from criticism from a church member.

And we all go through those seasons, none as painful as losing a father at such a young age. But praise the Lord that you had a church around you that loved you and that you kept showing up even when maybe you were faking it sometimes and God got a hold of you. Sounds like in dramatic fashion.

You're 16 years old, you have this spiritual epiphany, you end up going off to Christ for the Nations Institute in Dallas. And you are multi-talented, Jared. I know you have a great preaching gift. You have the musical gift and singing gift. And didn't you write some music kind of around that same time that a real original song that kind of took off, didn't you?

Jared Ellis: Yeah, Christ for the Nations, I had the opportunity to be a part of the youth for the nations camp worship team. And so I was the worship director and wrote some music with them and then was able to be on one of the albums through Christ for the Nations music. And yeah, it went further than I thought it was going to go.

But it was really just such a cool opportunity to be a part of something bigger than I had ever experienced before. Christ for the Nations was known for incredible worship leaders like Kari Jobe and Rick Pino and Klaus. And so getting to share the stage with some of my heroes, it was really incredible and definitely the grace of God.

Dave Stone: Yeah, and those are some people that have great walks with Christ. You know, there's some people who you hear about them and then you get to meet them and you all of a sudden you realize, "Oh, gosh, I put them on too high of a pedestal." But Kari Jobe is not like that at all and she's the real deal.

And I'm glad that you were surrounded by some people like that who were making an impact but also were keeping their feet on the ground and making Christ's name famous rather than caring about making their own name famous.

Jared Ellis: Kari is a great example of somebody who had an exceptional gift and chose to be planted in a local church because after Christ for the Nations she got planted at Gateway. And I mean she's been there for years and I think it's a testimony even being in Bible college.

The people that I see today that are still in ministry now all these years later were people who chose to get planted in a local church and use their gifts to serve the local body. And I really believe that's what has kept her so grounded, her character, her gift. She's always been a part of building what God is doing in a city context. And so, yeah, love Kari and everything that she stands for.

Dave Stone: Amen. I've got listeners on here who can relate to you in so many different ways. First of all, listeners, Jared is in his 30s, and so I tout that because we are trying to have some younger guests on here. And he's in his 30s. He was a youth pastor. He was a worship leader. He wrote music. He played instruments. He's also a preacher.

So, he's covered a whole lot of different responsibilities that many of you all have right now in your churches. But you were in Abilene for a while, and then you also were at Elevation Church. What were some of the takeaways that you walked away with from each of those ministries?

Jared Ellis: Yeah, you know, I think I learned so many different things in so many different contexts. Coming out of New York right before I left, actually, to go into Bible college, we had a pretty big moral failure in the leadership in my church there. And I think that's where I learned that sometimes the greatest preparation of leadership is knowing and watching what you don't want to become.

And so I got some lessons in what it takes to really do this for the long run, integrity, character, the stuff that isn't super sexy that gets on a podcast, but the stuff that sustains you throughout. And so I learned it takes integrity and character in hard times. It takes perseverance.

Being in Abilene, West Texas, a very different context than what I grew up in New York. I learned that, man, people matter more than production programs. I was a young guy who wanted to build something fast, and a little bit slower down south. And I had to learn that in order to build something that lasts, you need to slow down and care about people because people don't care about how much you know, they care about how much you care.

And so I learned over those years that ministry is really the day in, day out, showing up for people when you don't want to show up, when it's inconvenient and letting them know that this is not about me. This is really about the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God is made up of people.

Being in a ministry like Elevation, fast-paced, global ministry that's changing the world, I mean, it inspired me to know that you can build something big and excellent and impactful and do it at a young age. And I think that's really what inspired in my church planting journey that, hey, you know, God uses every single person and when he calls you into a season, he authorizes and anoints you for it. He will equip you for what you need to do it.

Dave Stone: Well, I love what you said about the day in and day out because that's really where ministry is all about. It's not so much who you are when you're on that stage or platform. It's who you are in the dark. It's who you are when no one's watching. It's those little steps. Teddy Sturm used to say, "Integrity is who you are in the dark."

And I like that because that's really what we're striving to be as Christian leaders is some type of an example for Christ. Someone said, "You know, we think that following Christ is really like taking a $10,000 bill and laying it down on the altar and saying, 'Here's my life,' when really what it is is taking that $10,000 bill and exchanging it for quarters. And it's day in and day out, a quarter here, a quarter there. It's serving this person here. It's listening to this draining individual at church who comes up to you every week. It's the person that is ostracized and overlooked on the sidewalk that we somehow give a cup of cold water to in the name of Jesus."

I want to try to connect the dots, Jared, because I've got you over here in North Carolina working, but at a very young age, I think 26, if I'm remembering correctly, God's going to put something on your heart and take you all the way across the country and you're going to plant a church. So, help me understand how does this take place and did you think it was bad sushi or, "Lord, am I hearing you right?" What was going through your mind?

Jared Ellis: It may have been bad sushi, but God sometimes uses bad sushi. He's used the fish before to get people to do what he's calling them to do. Yeah, so when I was at Elevation in Charlotte, I met a guy named Q, and he was someone that was in the staffing cohort that I was a part of. And both of us were in seasons of transition. I was being called away from Charlotte. He was being called to Sacramento, which is where he came from.

And on our way out from Charlotte, we had a conversation over coffee, and he said, "You know, one day I'm going to call you and ask you to come plant a church with me." And I kind of shrugged it off and laughed it off as something that was just kind of a pipe dream. But sure enough, about three years later, after I had been in Dallas, there was a season of transition between Charlotte and Sacramento.

I lived in Dallas. I was teaching at Christ for the Nations as a professor in the youth ministry department, and I was speaking itinerant, so full-time traveling as a conference speaker. I get a call from Q and he says, "Hey, we're wanting to plant a church here in Sacramento. And right now I'm leading it, but I don't want to be the guy. Would you consider coming to be the pastor of this church plant?"

And at the time, my answer was absolutely not. I had no interest in moving to Sacramento. I'd spent a few times in Sacramento and it was not a city that I was interested in going to. But I took a trip to visit the team that was planning on planting the church. I preached on a Sunday and spent some time with the leaders. And I just felt the hunger, hunger to build something here in the capital of California.

Some people call it the pastor's graveyard. Churches have a hard time in our region of the city really sustaining life. And I've got that rebellious middle child syndrome streak in me. If it's hard, I want to do it and I want to grit my teeth and make it happen. In fact, it was such a sign from God because on our way, you say bad sushi, this is God really connecting the dots.

On my way to the airport after that trip to visit Sacramento, Q and I went to sushi. And while we were eating lunch at the sushi spot, someone broke into Pastor Q's car, stole everything that I was traveling with, my MacBook, my iPad, my camera, all of my clothes. I literally walked into the Sacramento airport with my wallet and that was it. I didn't even have to go through security. I had nothing.

And I saw that as a sign that if I made the devil that mad just by visiting, how mad can I make him if I move? And so that was really my confirmation. And so we planted and launched a church February 2017. But I was booked as a speaker in Dallas till August. And so I would fly every month to preach and to lead the team until August. I finally moved and then I was on the ground and we were full speed ahead here in Sacramento.

Dave Stone: Had no idea that sushi was going to enter into the picture and God works in mysterious ways. I just it's so crazy to think about. I was in San Francisco once going to speak for Chip Ingram and at his church, and I walked in between two hotels and I didn't have my wallet with me to see which one was cheaper. My phone was dead from my flight out there. And they broke in my car. They took my laptop, my sermon, they took everything that I had and my wallet and my phone because my phone was dead so I left it in there. That was in five minutes' time.

Jared Ellis: Yeah, unfortunately, that is the story of too many people visiting California. But it's kind of like initiation. Once you get through it, I mean, it hasn't happened to me again. So, I think I paid my dues.

Dave Stone: And you learn some lessons, too. I put everything in the trunk and sad thing is that could happen anywhere nowadays. That's for certain. So you go out there. You feel this this call in an unusual way. You and Q are planting this church, starting this church. And you're single at the time. And in that ministry, you come across Trin. Tell me a little bit about how you guys met and it's always interesting to hear how somebody in ministry who's single meets someone who is volunteering at the church.

Jared Ellis: Yeah, it's I'll tell you this. I mean, I was confident enough to plant the church. I had boldness, I had faith. But I definitely was insecure enough to wonder if people would follow a single 26-year-old senior pastor. It was definitely a challenge, and not one that I was willing to walk away from. But you know, when you're getting up and pastoring people and shepherding them every single week and you don't have children, you don't have a wife, you don't have a family, it definitely can make you feel a little bit insecure.

And God knew that and I think throughout the journey, he introduced me to an incredible young woman at the time. And actually, Trin is Q's sister. And so that's how we met at the time of planting the church. She had actually moved back, so Trin comes from the business world. She traveled all over the world, really, doing business.

So, she kind of came to a point in her life where she felt like, it's time to build something of my own, get out of the corporate world. So she moved back to Sacramento around the same time I moved to Sacramento and her and her brother Q, she's one of 10. So she has a massive Vietnamese family and they were launching a restaurant here in town.

So this was kind of her first entrepreneurship venture. And so while we're launching the church, she's launching a restaurant. We don't have a building. They don't have headquarters. So we're just officing out of the same area. So we spent a lot of time together, officing out of Q's home and different spaces.

And it was really such a God thing because while she's kind of stepping out into this season of entrepreneurship very similar to planting a church. You gotta be scrappy, you gotta be doing everything, sacrificing a lot, long hours. And at the same time of while she's building a business, she's serving the church, she's going through our discipleship course that I've developed.

And God is just moving in her life. We really had no romantic interest in one another in the beginning of the process. But over time, you know, we're both building, we're both pioneering. It just began to make sense. Hey, this is a partnership that works together.

And so we started dating and kept it secret. You don't want to really let it out of the bag because if it doesn't work out, it could be a lot of drama. We were discreet. We let all the people know that needed to know, my pastors, my leaders. And within about nine months we got engaged. And when you know, you know, and then about six months later we got married and the rest is history.

Dave Stone: That's so cool to hear that story and there's something powerful about when there is a friendship there first and then the romantic God allows those romantic feelings to come in. You start to see that person with a different set of eyes. And you also being in ministry, man, there is something really cool to experience when you feel like she is a part of your ministry, you're a part of her ministry. I know she works on staff. What what is the rule that she serves and what's some of her giftings that she has?

Jared Ellis: Yeah, so we're a nine-year-old church, but I think we still operate sometimes as that scrappy church plant. We've got a lean team. And so a church our size, you know, we've grown immensely over the years, but we've got a small team and a small staff and we really operate a lot through volunteers.

And so we all play a lot of roles and multitasking job descriptions. Really, her main responsibility now, she's done everything in the church. I mean, she was our guest experience director, she's overseen our E-groups, our small groups, and she's run our systems. But right now she really focuses on our women's ministry, E2 Girl, which is exploding.

I mean, they literally can't fit. They just had an event a couple weeks ago and it's overflow after overflow. So she oversees that. She also oversees our small groups director, our outreach initiatives, our Dream Center, which is a massive outreach to our city. And so she really provides kind of a leadership role of developing people in our church, ensuring that those things move forward well.

And then, you know, she jumps in and leads with me in whatever capacity that she wants to. I made it clear to her from the beginning when we were getting married, I said, "Look, I'm not looking for marrying an associate pastor. I need a wife. And so your expectations of or my expectations of you in ministry, it's really whatever you want it to be. You do what you feel called to do."

And she was, again, in full-time business, but a few years ago she really felt that call to move into ministry full-time. And I think that was really special because I didn't recruit my wife into ministry. I gave her the freedom to hear God for herself. And I think in hearing God for herself, now it's her calling and it's her passion. So, we do whatever is needed to build this thing and move it forward and she is the greatest gift of God that I could ever have received.

Dave Stone: Well, good job on waiting for the right one and also waiting for the right timing. There's a lot of people in Christian leadership that are so excited to have that companion beside them that they jump a little early and they might not get the one who's going to be the best match for them personally nor for their ministry because they just weren't patient. So, kudos to you for being patient.

I know we have a lot of people who listen to this podcast who have gone through infertility issues or have people that they're ministering to on a regular basis. My prayer list has couples who have battled infertility and we pray on behalf of them, my wife and I night after night. We've got five couples right now on that list and we just lift them up to the Lord.

Everything's flowing well in your church. The church is growing. God's brought Trin into your life. You all desire to start a family. And the Lord seems to say no or wait a while. How did you handle that, brother?

Jared Ellis: Yeah, infertility is definitely something that I think needs to be talked about more. I can't tell you how many times we share our story and we have people coming up to us saying, "I've never heard it talked about in church." Or it's still taboo because there's a shame that comes along with it, whether you want to admit it or not, there's a shame that you feel in not being able to do the thing you feel like you were created to do, which was to build a family and to multiply like God told Adam and Eve.

And you know, when we got married, we've been married for seven years now, we really started noticing that five years in, or two years in, so five years of infertility, things just weren't happening the way that we felt like they were supposed to.

And so I'm a man of faith. I believe my wife is the eternal optimist, and so we believed for breakthrough and miracles. But eventually, we got to the place where we need to just start asking the questions, "Hey, is there something else going on here?"

And so going to the doctors and getting the reports and them really saying, "We we can't tell you why, but we can just let you know that it's really a low probability of you being able to have children." It was devastating. It was another one of those moments like losing my dad where it just feels like everything that I have put my faith in and encouraged others to believe for is opposite in my own life.

And you know, we went through lots of different options throughout that time of how do we want to navigate this? Do we want to just keep praying, just believing? Do we really want to go through the medical route and everything that comes with that?

And getting up on a stage every single Sunday and encouraging people to believe God and hearing stories of breakthrough and then even some of the most difficult situations. I mean, I remember sitting in this room having a conversation with a young girl in our church that got pregnant, didn't anticipate getting pregnant and was having to make the decision on does she want to have an abortion or does she want to go through with the pregnancy?

And looking at my wife and having to fight back tears of begging this young girl to move forward with the pregnancy and wishing that we could have a child. And what I'm grateful for is I'm grateful for a great community of people who supported us throughout that season, encouraged us throughout that time, grateful for family that came alongside of us in whatever choice we made, and grateful for a God who's faithful to complete the work that he started.

We believe that we're called to be parents and here we are, 26 weeks pregnant with our first baby girl, living in a miracle season and just so grateful that we've gotten this far and knowing that God is truly faithful to his word.

Dave Stone: Thank you for sharing that and thank you for giving God praise. It gets me because as you share your story, it's not Jared and Trin, but it's Cody and Elena. I'm thinking of those names. I preached at Southeast this last weekend and after we stood around talk for a while, we see this couple from our Bible study come walking up to us.

And I'm telling you, Jared, every time somebody in our Bible study, it's young married couples, meets at our house and every time somebody says they're pregnant, gosh, you just hurt for this couple seated over here. You rejoice, everybody rejoices with the one, but you hurt for them.

But Cody and Elena came up to us and they were talking for a minute and then they looked at each other and they said, "We've got some news." And we both just kind of stopped for a second and didn't want to get ahead of ourselves and she says, "I'm pregnant." And I mean, it was waterworks city right there.

And I know that's not the case for everyone. I know that for people who are listening there are some that will never be able to say, "I'm pregnant" or "we're going to have a child." So it does really make you appreciate if God allows you to do that and it's a blessing, it's a privilege, and it's a responsibility. But thank you for giving us that peak.

Jared Ellis: And I just want to encourage somebody that's listening right now because I know that when you're in that season, any type of miracle testimony, it comes with a sting to it. And Trin and I, we had a conversation and I think this is what has allowed us to go through this season with grace.

Our marriage and our partnership matter more than anything else. And we had a hard conversation a couple years ago where I asked her, I said, "Hey, if we never have children, are we going to be okay? Are you going to be okay? Are we still going to be able to move forward in the purpose of God for our lives?"

And I am just incredibly grateful for a wife who understands purpose. And she looked at me and she said, "Jared, if God never blesses us with a child, he has blessed us with so much more. We have a church that we are spiritual parents to. We have family, we have friends. We have so much purpose on our lives. And we're going to be okay. God is going to continue to use us."

And I would just encourage somebody that's listening right now that it is okay to believe and pray and ask God for a miracle, and I truly will partner with you in faith believing that it's going to happen. But I want you to know there's purpose in your season right now as well.

God is using you, God is doing something in and through you. It is not wasted time. It is developed time. And there is something so significant that happens in the season of suffering and waiting that builds substance in us to where now when I get on stage, I'm not just sharing stories that somebody else gave me. I am giving you the fruit of our lives that we have allowed the Holy Spirit to produce.

There is nothing more meaningful than being able to serve people like that. Paul said that, that the sufferings we're going through, we now share with you as a testimony. And so just don't don't lose hope. Don't lose faith in the midst of the season you're in because God is using it right now.

Dave Stone: Yeah, well-put. That's a good word for someone to hear out there today and for me to hear as well. You know, God never wastes a hurt. Someone said, "Empathy is when your pain lives in my heart." And you have this ability to be able to relate to people because of the pain that you all went through and because of the questioning and because of that psalmist, "how long, oh God, how long, how long?"

And praise the Lord that you guys both prayed for a miracle but more important than that, it's that Daniel 3 verse 18, I think it is, "But even if our God chooses not to save us, we're still going to worship him and we're not going to bow down." So, wow, thank you for for sharing that and giving us a glimpse into your family.

You have been used in a variety of ways at E2 but also God has blessed your digital ministry and your social media outreach. Is that something that you saw coming? Was that something that you intentionally set out to do or was it something that you kind of stumbled onto and you saw that God was adding some favor to it and so you doubled down on it? Walk me through that.

Jared Ellis: Yeah, it's a great question. I actually feel like I'm on the tail end of a generation that doesn't really exist anymore and that is the generation that really has a love-hate relationship with social media. I was raised, especially in my spiritual formation, kind of in that time where we looked down on self-promotion. It's a little bit taboo to put yourself out there. If God's going to promote you, let God be the one to do it.

And so for years, I really didn't post on social media regularly. It wasn't until 2019, 2020 when the world shut down and we were forced to go online that I realized how important it was that we are present where our people are. And the truth is people weren't in church, they were online.

And God really challenged me in that year to post once a day every single day. And it was not easy. Not only was it easy technically to make the posts, but to watch yourself back as a preacher, it is a challenging exercise. And I'll tell you, it was a pride-humbling experience to go through some of my messages and think to myself, "Okay, what actually works to meet people where they are online?"

But through that process, through posting and through being consistent, things started to change and shift. And it was a video here or a video there that would begin to get traction online. And I never went into social media for that to go viral, to be seen. I really did it so that I could serve my people in my local context because I think that the internet can make you famous to strangers before you're faithful to your own people.

And I know people that are on that have done that very thing, that they're known all over the world and they are absent in their own local church context. I never wanted that to be the case. But I do believe this. I believe that if Paul were alive today, he'd probably be posting on TikTok, on Instagram, on Facebook. He'd be going live because this is a vehicle to get the gospel out.

And so in doing that, I believe God has blessed that. And in being consistent and being faithful, it is only, I'm being honest about this, only about two weeks ago did I actually let somebody else start taking on my social media. For the past six years, I have done that myself. I put my posts out there, I've created the videos, and I believe it's made me a better communicator. And it's opened doors to just connect with people in places I never expected to connect with.

Dave Stone: Well, I love your approach to how it is you view it. I also love what you said because I do think that there are times where people care about the larger audience than they do their very own flock. And I appreciate what you said about that, and that's a good reminder for all of us as we try to build a following.

Let's make certain that it's not at the expense of the people that God has called us to pastor, the people that are flesh and blood that are right there before us. So thank you for that reminder. And I've got a son, you're 35, I've got a 31-year-old son and he is always saying to me, "Dad, just post. Just get in. You haven't put anything up all week."

And the way he sees it is the way that you do is that it's a regular activity that starts to get people to see it and all of a sudden there'll be something that gets passed along or they'll watch a clip. And then when they watch that reel, then they'll say, "Oh, you know what? Maybe I'd like to hear more on that" and they'll listen to the entire sermon or there's a scripture that encourages them.

He always it's so good when I look at Sam's account because he'll put a quote from every he's a realtor he'll put a quote from every Sunday from a sermon on there. And it just says something it communicates to those people that, "Oh, there's something more here. This is important. This is a high priority with him."

What would you say to those people who are starting to put their feet into the water when it comes to social media and trying to have an influence? What are some warnings that you might give and what some encouragement that would be some low-hanging fruit for them?

Jared Ellis: Absolutely. I think that the major shift that had to happen in me when it came to social media was, what is my motive for posting this? If my motive is to impress people, I will be severely disappointed by whether it gets traction or whether it goes viral. But if my motive is to impact people, to help them, to encourage them, then whether or not somebody sees it, likes it, or interacts with it, I'm going to trust that God is going to bring that to the right people, to the right audience, at the right time.

And I think that we live in an age where attention is the currency of the day. If you can get people's attention, then you win. But there are so many things that are fighting for people's attention. And I think that there is a split here of people that believe that in order to gain attention you have to always rage bait, you have to always say something controversial, you have to always be just just go against the grain.

And I don't believe that that's the case. I believe most people out there just need courage. They need help. They're struggling in their marriage. They're trying to raise their children. They're trying to pay their bills. They're trying to serve God. And what they need are more pastors who put their pride aside and are willing to go on the mission field of the internet and say, "Here's what God's word says about this. Here's how you can apply the principles of scripture to your marriage, to your family."

And if you're focused on helping people on a regular basis, I promise you the comparison trap or the feelings of inadequacy or insecurity, they're not going to rise up because you're there just to help someone. Even if it's one person.

And then the moment that virality happens and God really allows something to gain traction, then you will have a library and a history of helping people instead of going viral for something and now having no substance to back it up. And I think pastors are in the perfect position to do this because you are serving people every single day. This isn't new, this isn't just something you're doing online. It's something you're doing in person every single moment of every single day. And so I just encourage you start doing it. Don't post to be seen, post to help people and watch God use it.

Dave Stone: And it gives your congregation the opportunity then to be able to be a witness and to forward those things on or to send it to someone. You're actually kind of giving them ammunition that they can use as they're trying to scatter the seed.

I think of Josh Howerton. Josh was our only guest that we had do two parts. He did two different episodes with us. And how God has widened his audience, here he fixated on pouring into Lakepoint Church, but God just kept giving him a larger audience. And he says exactly what you said, and that is, you know, "I think that's where Paul would be on social media trying to make a difference and give people as much information and help as they possibly can have from their pastor." And it's an avenue for him to be able to help them.

I want to talk real quickly as we wrap up. I've seen your some of your sermons, you're passionate, you love God's word, but you also hold people's attention I think at times through your use of props. We have a lot of people on here, student pastors, people who are up front they're sharing in presentations. And you and I were talking before we started this podcast and we talked a little bit about how it is that we have to hold our own attention because we both are kind of scatter-brained and ADHD.

So, show me and tell me the value of props and when you choose to use them, when you don't choose to use them, and how that's played a role in making your messages more memorable.

Jared Ellis: Yeah, I definitely need them for myself most of the time just to keep my own attention span connected to the word of God. But, you know, it's funny, I kind of go in and out of seasons of using props. Right now I'm not using them as much. A season before this I was using them quite a bit, so much so that actually a pretty popular creator on Instagram clipped it and posted it out there that then inspired an Instagram page called Pastors with Props.

And it's kind of like a hate page making fun of pastors with props. I actually was the first pastor with props on that page, which is pretty funny. I think that props are just tools to be able to help people visualize what you're trying to communicate.

A lot of times we'll say Jesus spoke in parables. I know Jesus says he spoke in parables actually to hide wisdom from those who were prideful and not trying to understand what he was saying. I think for us as pastors, our job is to make the scriptures as easy as possible for people to understand so that they can apply God's word to their life.

And so when I use a prop, it's really a visual cue to get somebody memorizing or remembering that scripture because most of the time they're not going to remember the verse that I read, they're not going to remember the one-liner that I worked six hours on in sermon prep to get sounding perfect.

But they will remember a tent on the stage or they will remember a dresser next to me or they will remember a pegboard that I climb up. Those things are going to stick in their memory and hopefully I've made it a close enough association with the scripture so that when they remember the prop, it reminds them of the principle of the word of God.

And so that's really it's just a tool to get people engaged in the word. I can't tell you how many people come to my church and they grew up in different contexts and the Bible is so foreign to them, they get bored when they hear it and yet all of a sudden the scriptures are coming alive to them because now it's being applied to their daily lives, things that they understand. And so again, sometimes I'm in seasons of heavily using props, other seasons not so much, but I think we should use every tool at our disposal as preachers, as communicators to get people to understand the word of God.

Dave Stone: And if that's the end goal is to provide that hook that makes it sticky to where then that person gets that biblical truth or the word finds a place in their heart because when they see that bucket that you hold on the stage or that chest of drawers, all of a sudden it reminds them of that message.

I've never had a person stop me and say, "Oh, Dave, that sermon that you did a few months ago, the way every point started with the letter 'P', it just touched my heart. Unbelievable." No one ever says that. But they will say that story that you told about that couple battling infertility, you have no idea that's right where we are and it really ministered to our family. Boom, that story or that prop, whatever it might be that they see that reminds them of that biblical truth, God's going to use it.

You wrote a book, I think it was a couple years ago, called *How to Become a Prayer Warrior*. And we have Christian leaders who are listening right now who desire to be prayer warriors and yet that's a struggle for them. Any words of encouragement that you might give to them?

Jared Ellis: Absolutely. Prayer is a conversation with God. It's not preaching. It's not eloquence. I know, you know, especially those of us who grew up in church, we would say things like, "That person can pray." Most of the time what we're really saying is, "That person can preach."

But prayer's a conversation with God. And in every season of your life, prayer's going to look different. When you're a single person that has a lot of time on your hands versus when you're a parent of a new child and you're waking up every three hours to feed that baby, prayer looks different.

And yet conversation with God remains the same. And something that I'm really passionate about is giving people practical tools on how to pray. There's so many different forms of prayer, ways that we can pray that can help us be creative in our prayer lives.

And that's really why I wrote that book. There's 14 different forms of biblical prayer listed with each chapter giving you an application how to do it right now and how to use it as a tool in your relationship with God so that prayer doesn't become stale. I think sometimes we just get bored because we do the same things over and over again. But there's so many different forms of prayer, prayer through worship, prayer through the word, contemplative prayer, all these different forms of prayer.

And so I just encourage people keep talking to God, let God talk to you. It's not just us having a monologue with a deity. It's us having a dialogue with a father and a friend. And so when we practice prayer in that way, it changes everything. It gives us faith in the seasons that we're walking through, gives us vision. The Bible says without vision people perish. Vision comes in the place of prayer. And so we've got to be prayer warriors and prayer warriors learn just pray.

Dave Stone: Well-put. Jared, I hope people will check out your book *How to Become a Prayer Warrior*. We've got it in the show notes. Also hope that they'll follow you as well because that way they're going to get to see some of your preaching and they're going to want to see the full sermons, that's for sure.

So today we've talked to a guy who was a singer, an instrumentalist, a youth pastor, a church planter, and a preacher and pastor. And he's a ministry partner with every one of us. Jared, thank you so much for your time. May God continue to bless E2. We can't wait to see how he's going to continue to use you.

Jared Ellis: Thank you so much, Pastor. It's my honor.

Dave Stone: I say "wow" I feel like so many times right after an interview. I've got so many different pages of notes jotted down here. And I love so many different pieces of Jared's story. But what stuck out to me was that recurring theme of faithfulness all the way through all the different hats that he's worn. He's never chased titles, he's just responded to needs.

And he's carried that mindset into leading his church of E2. He reminded us that ministry isn't about building something fast or impressive. It's about showing up consistently for people each day, even when it's inconvenient. And I don't know about you, but I loved his approach to social media.

And just hearing him say, "Here's a guy who has tens of thousands of likes and comments and to hear him say, 'I'm not trying to impress people. That's not why I post. I'm posting to help people.'" And he really has this focus for his own local congregation. Yes, it spills over and others hear it, but I love just the fact that it's spilled out to a broader audience but that was not what was intended.

I remember his E2 conference that they're having at their church August 28th through the 30th there in Sacramento. But on the 27th, the day before, they've got some special things just for pastors only. And it'll be a chance for you to connect Pastor to Pastor with one another. Check that out. You can finding that online. We've got it in the show notes as well.

I had a lot of favorite parts of this interview, but the part that I want to key in on as far as our closing story is when he went to Sacramento and he had his car broken into and his things were stolen. He said, "If I made the devil that mad just by visiting Sacramento, how mad could I make him if I move?"

And that's a segue into my story. Several years ago, I flew to the West Coast to preach for a friend, and my flight was delayed. I had no hotel. I parked between two different hotels and I went to check the prices. Eight minutes later, as I was walking back to my car, I saw this glass there on the ground beside and I saw that somebody had punched a hole in. And I looked and my backpack was gone.

And my backpack was gone and inside of it, my laptop was in there, my phone, my Bible, my sermons, my books, my iPhone, my wallet, everything. I felt completely helpless. I went to the police station to file a report and asked if I could use a phone to call my wife and the officer said, "No, no, that's against policy." And I joked and said, "Well, if I were a criminal, you'd give me one phone call," and he didn't laugh.

I asked him about the payphone that was right outside. I said, "Does that work?" He said, "Yeah, it works, but you can't use it." I said, "Why not?" He said, "It's too dangerous in that area." I'm like, "I'm right across the street from a police station."

But a day and a half later, I got word at the hotel where I was staying that the police let me know that a garbage man had found my backpack and some of my things were still in it, including my wallet. So I drove to retrieve it and no lie. When I walked in, I explained to the officer why I was there and he said, "Well, to pick it up, I'm going to need to see some ID."

Can't make this stuff up, right? I said, "Well, it's it's actually in the backpack." And I said, "If you bring it out, also there'll be some sermons in there on the book of Colossians and a book that I've written in there." And so he brought the backpack out. Sure enough, the sermons were in there of mine and my own book was in there, evidently not a lot of resale value for those.

But my computer, my phone, I had some cash in there. My Bible, this Bible was still there and that that mattered to me. But to top it all, when the guy when he broke the window, he had cut himself. And so he bled all over everything that I had in the backpack. He got his blood all over my stuff, all over my Bible, my sermon notes, everything. And it was frustrating and was honestly a little bit unsettling as well.

But it made me stop and think, okay, what is God trying to teach me? And here's what I realized. He took my technology, but he left me his word. And it was as if he was saying, "My word is more important than your iPhone, and it's more important than your laptop, and my word is is more important than the sermons that you're out here to work on."

You know, Jesus went to the cross for a very noble purpose and he stayed on the cross when he could have come down. Why did he stay up there? He stayed because he knew that only by him staying on the cross could our sins be paid for. To put it another way, he got his blood all over my stuff. All over my pride, all over my lust, all over my selfishness. And he got his blood all over your stuff, too. Over your jealousy, over your anger, and over your apathy.

And he covered over all of our sins that we've committed in the past and will ever commit in the future. Hebrews chapter 9 verse 14 says it well, "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death so that we may serve the living God." Wow. Could you use a fresh start? A fresh start in your ministry? A fresh start in your marriage? Maybe today's the day.

Thanks for listening to Pastor to Pastor. I hope you loved hearing about how Jared and Trin are doing ministry together. You know, your marriage is crucial to your ministry and that's why we want to come alongside of you and support you by offering you a free pastoral getaway for you and your spouse.

You can enjoy a three-day, all-inclusive stay at one of Focus on the Family's beautiful retreat centers. Spots are limited, so book your free mini-sabbatical today at thefocusedpastor.org/getaway or click on the link in the show notes. This could be just what your marriage needs, and it could also be just what your ministry needs.

As always, thanks so much for listening to Pastor to Pastor. We drop a brand new episode every Tuesday. It's designed to encourage, inspire, and challenge you. Leadership can be lonely, and we call this Pastor to Pastor for a reason. It's to remind you you're not alone. So until next time, I'm Dave Stone saying God bless.

Jim Daly: Live your truth. A lot of people say that, don't they? But truth isn't something we decide. God has decided it for us, and it's our job as believers to share his truth with a world in need. I'll encourage you to do that through my podcast ReFocus with Jim Daly. I visit with fascinating guests about important topics like gender confusion, cancel culture, and more, while helping you share God's love with others. Listen at refocuswithjimdaly.com.