Living on the Edge

Guest (Male): Today on Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram: Is it possible to talk about politics, social justice, and Black Lives Matter without launching an argument? Is there a way to remove the barriers that are dividing you and those you love—your kids, your grandkids, a close friend? The answer is absolutely yes, and you’ll learn how today. Stay with me.

Today on Living on the Edge, Chip Ingram invites you to hear from guest teacher Aaron Pierce, tackling one of the touchiest topics there is: how to talk about politics without losing the relationship. Aaron’s ministry, Steiger International, has spent decades planting itself in secular spaces most Christians avoid, learning how to build real relationships in tough places.

Today, he shares a powerful personal story from the streets of Minneapolis and shows us how even our most divisive topics, like politics, can become doorways to the gospel if we’re willing to lead with love instead of an argument. Now here’s Aaron with today’s message titled, "Let’s Talk About the Hard Stuff."

Aaron Pierce: I want to start by telling a story. We were in the center of the political universe when George Floyd was killed. It was a crazy time. I remember taking a small group of people from the Steiger Minneapolis team the Saturday after it happened and going down to see what was happening with the huge protest. We were just standing there with a group of people, and buildings were still on fire from the night before.

The intensity of the situation and seeing thousands and thousands of young people, mainly young people, all around, just angry and searching and crying out for justice. It was so interesting because there was just this deep sense of anger but also a sense of hollow solution. The solutions just rang so hollow. It was really clear to me, just looking around and seeing all these people that were fighting for something, that they were looking for a human answer to a sin problem.

It was a really interesting thing, and the dynamics were really strange, actually. I remember being there with thousands and thousands of people, but there was really no sense of leadership. It was a weird dynamic. People were looking; it was a crowd that was ready to be led. We were just there to observe and pray.

Then we came back a couple of days later. This time we went actually right to the spot where George Floyd was killed. When we got there, there was a big box truck and some speakers set up. There were some people with a microphone talking, and there was a huge crowd all around them. Our group came, and we got to the edge of the group with a number of people, including Serena, who’s part of our team, an African American woman who’s very bold.

I remember sitting there looking at it and remembering the moment in the crowd before and how the crowd was very much ready to be led. I said to Serena, because it made a whole lot more sense for her to do it, "Go up there and ask for the microphone." She did. She walked up and she asked them, and no one was going to say no to her.

They gave her the microphone. First, she sang a song, which was really cool and drew people in. Then she just began to preach the gospel. She began to share how the ultimate solution to the brokenness of the world is Jesus. It was very clear, very bold, and people were glued to what she had to say.

She invited people to pray to receive Jesus, and people raised their hands and prayed out loud right on the spot there. Then we had hours and hours of conversation right there at that spot. Then that whole summer, our team went back to that spot, and I have never experienced a time when people were more open to spiritual conversations and talking about Jesus than in that season. There was that real season of hunger and openness that summer in that moment. It was a really cool and powerful experience.

I think what it speaks to is that while these issues—these topics of politics and sexuality—are very divisive and very intimidating topics, they’re also incredible opportunities for the gospel. They’re moments in which we can connect. Rather than seeing them as things to avoid or putting them in that box of politics, they’re actually opportunities to connect on a deeper spiritual level with people.

Part of it is reframing in our own minds. These things are not scary topics, but these are actually opportunities if we approach them in a different way. That’s part of what I want to talk about: how do we approach this in a better way? Starting with the idea of politics, the first thing we have to understand is the concept of fear and the political savior. This is an issue that we have as Christians in the church.

Much of the Christian response to the decline of Christian influence and the moral decay of society has been characterized by fear. There are new books published every year foretelling the inevitable downfall and collapse of American society because we’ve forgotten our Christian roots. The internet is filled with podcasts and blog articles decrying the evil forces at work to undermine Christian values and marginalize Christian voices.

As the hostility grows, we have these projections and these images of pastors being arrested because they’re preaching the Bible and Christians being fired because they won’t bow down to the ideology of the day. Believe me, there’s some truth to some of that. There’s truth to that, but the challenge is that it’s created a culture of fear and anger. That’s the culture that we’ve created.

When we have a culture of fear, we see secular people as the enemy. The big paradigm here is that followers of Jesus, of all people, should not be known for fear but for hope. A while back, I became friends with a pastor that I really respected on Facebook. I really appreciated a lot of his teaching, but what I didn’t realize until we became friends on Facebook is how politically outspoken he was. There’s not necessarily anything wrong with that, but it was his approach and tone that really surprised me.

It became abundantly clear from looking at his posts and the way that he talked about them that he didn’t have any liberal friends. He didn’t have any friends that saw the world differently because of the way he talked. If he did at one point, they unfriended him a long time ago. Here he was, shouting eloquently into his social media echo chamber filled with like-minded followers, having zero influence on anyone that didn’t already agree with him, all while fostering a culture of fear and hostility towards them.

How do you think about or how do you talk about them, specifically those that are politically opposed to you? Do you envision real people with hopes and fears just like you? Do you see them as people that Jesus loved so much that he died on the cross for them? Or do you envision nefarious people with malicious intentions out to get you? What do you envision when you consider them?

I prefer to approach people using this thing called Hanlon’s Razor. Hanlon’s Razor says, "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance or deception." Maybe you’ll be duped every once in a while, but at least you’ll continue to foster a love for people and see the best in people.

Let me illustrate this with a well-known verse. You’ve probably seen this verse before. It says, "When I saw the crowds, I was angry and defensive with them because they were malicious and plotting to hurt me." No, this is what it really was: "When Jesus saw the crowds, he had compassion on them because they were confused and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd."

That should be our approach to people. The thing to remember is that often people’s motivation, politically or otherwise, is technically good when you consider their underlying assumptions. They’re operating on an assumption and on a worldview where, to them, they believe they are doing right. The challenge is not what they’re doing; it’s the worldview that they’re operating under. That’s the first thing: it’s our approach to other people. How do we feel and look about them?

The second thing is that we can’t make secondary things primary. Don’t make secondary things primary. It sounds obvious, but our goal is to win people to Jesus, not our political perspective. They’re not the same thing. Often it seems that Christians are more passionate about their political affiliation than Jesus.

The things that they’re most getting passionate and worked up about on social media is their political stuff. Some of those issues, to me, are so secondary and good Christians can have different views on it, but we’re so passionate about it. We often get stuck in these downstream battles and secondary issues rather than introducing people to Jesus. That is my key point.

Next thing about politics: we live in an activist culture. I think this is awesome because this activism really operates on a framework that connects to the gospel in a powerful way. Even though a lot of the things that people get into—like environmentalism, racism, Black Lives Matter, LGBTQ sexuality, feminism, mental health, suicide prevention, and economic justice—these are the hot topics. These are the things the culture cares about.

Even though a lot of these things either are outright anti-biblical or get twisted, it says something about people. What it says most importantly is that they believe the world is not as it ought to be. Remember when we talked about spiritual conversations, finding a truth that they believe and affirming that? Those that are politically active—that is a key truth that we can affirm in them.

Guest (Male): You’re listening to Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram, and we’ll continue this lesson from guest teacher Aaron Pierce in a moment. But before we continue, did you know there’s a free app that puts years of Bible teaching right in your pocket, searchable by topic, so you can find scriptural wisdom the moment you actually need it? It’s all available for you on the Chip Ingram app. Look up Chip Ingram in your app store and download it today. Now let’s continue today’s lesson.

Aaron Pierce: Then the question is, "How do we solve it? How do we solve these problems that we’re dealing with? Is it really a political thing, or is it something bigger and deeper than that?" My challenge to you is: we have these things that have often evoked a lot of angry political reactions. My challenge to you is: see them as opportunities to connect and to affirm, and then have a conversation seeking the truth together.

How do we take care of this planet? How do we see racial equality? Where does love come from? How do we treat people who are different with dignity and love and respect? How should women be treated? Can we acknowledge the fact throughout history that there’s been a ton of marginalization, and what do we do about that? Of course, Jesus was so radical in the way he treated women. See these as opportunities, not as political conversations.

To give you an example of this, this was last year; I end up meeting a couple of these guys. They’re kind of tough-looking, tattooed people. I saw them and I thought they look interesting, so I went up to them and I said, "Hey, how are you doing? What do your tattoos mean?" because tattoos are personal and they’re easy things to connect on.

He looked at me and said, "Well, which one?" I said, "That one," and I pointed to one that was a circle with three downward-facing arrows. I found out later that that actually was a symbol representing Antifa, which is a left-wing political movement with some extreme and sometimes violent elements to it.

He said, "Well, it means anti-fascist, anti-capitalist, anti-authoritarian." I asked him, "Why do you believe that? What does that mean to you?" He talked about the corruption of the system and how you’ve got all these billionaires in their yachts while the poor are struggling and how that’s unjust and all this kind of corruption and political stuff. Then he began talking passionately about implementing his socialist, almost communist system in order to bring about equality.

At that point, a well-meaning Christian man that was there doing outreach with us began to have an argument with him about capitalism versus socialism. Hopefully we realize by now—that wasn’t the moment for that. He completely missed the point of that moment. This was not the time to argue about capitalism and socialism. This was a moment where we can connect.

I kindly but firmly took over the conversation and I followed a process of first of all affirming in him some good things that I saw. I said, "Man, I respect you because you see the brokenness of this world. You see suffering and you’re not willing to just stand aside; you want to do something about it. I respect that because I agree with you that the world is broken as well, and I’m an activist too. I’m a Jesus activist." I’m connecting on his playing field.

But then I reframe it. I said, "But the problem is that no matter what economic or political system we seem to put in place, we can’t get rid of the corruption. We can’t get rid of the evil and the suffering, and that’s because I believe the core problem is a corruption of the heart," using his language. "And there’s no political system that can solve that."

Then I challenged him and I told him that as a follower of Jesus, I believe that we can’t fix ourselves and that the only solution was a spiritual renewal and restoration found through the death and resurrection of Jesus. Then we end up having this really deep, long conversation. Eventually, he opened up and he said, "Well, yesterday I was at a funeral, and the pastor came up talking to me, and he was talking to me about this stuff too." I said, "Well, man, I think God is pursuing you." He said, "Yeah, I think you’re right."

It was a pretty amazing conversation with an Antifa guy that for most people is like the enemy that we should stand against. How are we going to engage the political process in a different way? That’s our challenge.

Now that we’ve dealt with politics, let’s go to the next easy topic, which is sexuality. Sexuality is undoubtedly the issue that draws the most hostility from secular culture towards the church. If you’re going to be actively engaging in secular culture, the topic of LGBTQ+ is unavoidable. It just comes up.

Societal attitudes have changed rapidly in the last few decades. Those that identify as LGBTQ+ has grown exponentially with each generation. In today’s culture, there’s very little room for rational conversation that challenges the mainstream narrative. It’s tough because discussions about LGBTQ+ rights are emotionally charged, and they’re drawing on themes of justice and equality connected to the civil rights movements of the '50s and '60s.

That’s what makes it so hard because you don’t want to be on the wrong side of history. Anything less than total affirmation of all things LGBTQ+ is quickly labeled as homophobic and bigoted. It’s a big challenge. Secular workplaces celebrate Pride Month with no regard for anyone that might not agree with it. The allies, frankly, are the most vicious in their defense.

This is a really challenging time for Christians who hold to a traditional biblical sexual ethic. It’s hard. The thought of engaging these conversations can be terrifying and paralyzing. The challenge is how should a faithful follower of Jesus live in a pride-month world? How do we do that?

Let’s talk a little bit about some key assumptions. The first step in engaging this topic is to recognize that beneath the mask of intense moral conviction, there is actually deep confusion and brokenness. At the core of the confusion today is the circular statement, "Love is love." This statement is a banner for LGBTQ+ rights, and it implies that people should be free to love whoever they want, however they want.

The question, of course, is "What is love?" Pop culture messages and love are so confused and conflicted. Love is sex, love is lust, love is a feeling, love is whatever I want it to be. The reality is that we’re just confused, and we are desperate for belonging and acceptance. That’s the core truth that you can hold on to: people are desiring belonging and acceptance, but they have no idea where to find it.

Even within the LGBTQ+ movement itself, there is so much confusion, division, and incoherence. The lesbians and old-school feminists are fighting with the transgender movement because what are women’s rights if there’s no such thing as a woman? Mental health care is in disarray because no longer are we seeking to align people’s mental state to their physical realities or objective truth, but instead align their bodies to their psychological feelings. It’s a crazy, confusing time.

As we already discussed as it relates to politics, Jesus’ response to confusion was compassion. That is always Jesus’ response: "When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them because they were confused and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." Like Jesus, as we engage this topic—the LGBTQ+ community and their allies—we need to start from a place of radical love and mercy. That’s where we start. Part of approaching this with love is approaching it with empathy, which means that we need to understand their reality properly so that we can have a better empathy.

Guest (Male): You’re listening to Living on the Edge with Chip Ingram and a message from our guest teacher Aaron Pierce called "Let’s Talk About the Hard Stuff." So you never miss a message, no matter how busy the week gets, don’t forget to subscribe to the Living on the Edge podcast, available wherever you listen. Plus, the Chip Ingram Sermon podcast that features full-length messages uncut, just as they were originally preached.

If conversations like the one Aaron just described happen in your own family, the "Not Beyond Reach" participants guide can help. Whether you’re working through these hard conversations in a small group or navigating them as an individual, this ten-session video-based study gives you the tools you need, covering topics from politics to sexuality and science. Each session includes a short video, discussion questions, and practical exercises to help you move past arguments and toward real relational connection. Pick up your copy at a reduced price online at livingontheedge.org/offers.

Right now, families and friendships across the country are divided over the very topics Aaron addressed today, and so many people simply don’t know a better way forward. This ministry exists to offer one: teaching that helps ordinary believers stay in relationship, stay curious, and keep the door open for the gospel, even when the conversation gets hard and the disagreement feels personal. None of that reaches anyone without listeners like you choosing to support it, month after month. Your generosity pushes biblical truth and hope further into homes that need it most. Simply give online quickly and securely at livingontheedge.org or call our team at 888-333-6003. You can also send your gift by mail to Living on the Edge, PO Box 3007, Suwanee, Georgia 30024. Now here’s Chip and Aaron wrapping up today’s message.

Chip Ingram: Aaron, I’ve got to tell you, I love today’s message, and I really love that moment where you talked about interrupting your friend who got in the argument about capitalism and socialism. Once you then told your friend that may be a valid issue some other place, but not right now, your approach didn’t end in an argument, but it ended in an open heart. What do you say to a parent or a grandparent or maybe even a pastor who deeply cares about friends or family, but right now there’s division, there’s strife, there’s lack of connection around socialism, capitalism, politics, masks, vaccines—something that really is a secondary issue? What do you say to that person about how to restore that relationship?

Aaron Pierce: Thanks, Chip. This is so important. My challenge is don’t let yourself get entangled in these political downstream things that become barriers. Don’t make secondary things, which are not unimportant but they’re not the ultimate—don’t make secondary things primary. Our goal is not to convince people to adopt our political perspective; our goal is to introduce them to the person of Jesus.

When they meet Jesus, when they see the beauty of who he is and what he has done for them, when they realize that he is good, that he loves them, that he knows them better than they know themselves—it’s in that realization, that revelation, that they’re willing to submit themselves to him. They’re willing to make him Lord of their life because they realize that he is good.

He wants good things for his children, and it’s not until I realize who Jesus is and the beauty of who he is that I’m willing to submit myself. In doing that, after I encounter Jesus, then all these secondary things take care of themselves. They make sense after I submit myself to Jesus because I know that he is good.

Guest (Male): I’m Dave Drewy, signing off. We’ll see you next time here on Living on the Edge.

Today’s program is produced and sponsored by Living on the Edge.