Key Life Network

Announcer: And a divorcee be a pastor? The answer to that and other questions on Key Life.

Announcer: Welcome to Key Life. Our host and teacher is Steve Brown. He's nobody's guru, but he does have honest answers to hard questions about the Bible. God's grace changes everything: how we love, work, live, lead, marry, parent, evangelize, and worship. Now, here's Steve and Pete Alwinson from Forge Truth with street smart Bible teaching for real life.

Steve Brown: Thank you, Matthew. Hey, Pete.

Pete Alwinson: Hey, man. How you doing?

Steve Brown: I'm doing really good.

Pete Alwinson: All right. All right.

Steve Brown: I get calls occasionally from people to see if I'm still alive.

Pete Alwinson: Steve, are you still there?

Steve Brown: Yeah, right. And I always say, no, guess where I'm calling from. That's Pete Alwinson, and check out Forgetruth.com.

Forge Ministry is something that is incredible. And if you haven't been to that website, go there. You'll discover some really, really good stuff. As you know, Pete comes in every Friday. We've been doing this for a lot of years, and we sit down and we answer your questions, and we love your questions. We take you and your questions seriously.

You can ask your question by calling 1-800-KEY-LIFE. That's 539-5433, and follow instructions and ask your question. Sometimes we put you on the air. Or you can send it to Key Life Network, Post Office Box 5000, Maitland, Florida, 32794.

In Canada, it's Key Life Canada, Post Office Box 20860, Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 6J8. And you can email your questions to steve@keylife.org. And if you can help us financially, please do.

I realize that most of you can't, or don't feel led to do it. But if you are led and you've got the money, send us a gift. And I promise we'll be as faithful with your gift as you were in giving it.

Steve Brown: Pete lives in prayer and we'll get to these questions.

Pete Alwinson: You got it. Let's pray together. Our Father, we do come to You now at the end of this week, so thankful that we belong to You, that we're Your children. And what a joy it is to say that we're children of the one true God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

High and holy and lifted up, and good and kind and perfect in every way. And yet loves us and is merciful toward us. And so we're grateful. Your mercies are new every morning, and so we honor You, we praise You, and thank You for this week.

Thank You that we can say that You have been at the helm. You've been leading all week, and we can trust You for everything that You've permitted into our lives. And Lord, but we still have needs, and so we come to You. We ask that You would hear our prayers. You would know our our needs and lead us in the way that You would have us to go.

Father, we thank You for our pastors and our worship directors. We thank You for our priests and leaders, our missionaries. And we lift them up to You right now. We ask that You would be with them this weekend. Prepare them even at this late date for for worship this weekend, and use them in a powerful way, Lord, that we could honor and praise You. Now we commit this time of Q&A to You. We ask that You would be honored and glorified in it, for we pray in Jesus' strong name. Amen.

Steve Brown: Amen. Pete, this is an email. I believe that for someone to be in a position of trust at church, he must have his business in order. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but is it appropriate that a divorcee be in charge of a congregation as a pastor?

Pete Alwinson: Okay. Well,

Steve Brown: Well, you know,

Pete Alwinson: A lot of nuance here.

Steve Brown: Yeah, there really is. But I get uncomfortable when you say grace is sufficient, except in certain areas. And generally people will lay out sexual areas, homosexuality. Divorce is one of them. And I get that. I understand there are red flags in places like that, and we shouldn't be stupid in the people we make as leaders.

But you can't make grace less radical than it is. And so I would say if there's Spurgeon said, and I love this statement because I think it's good, he said, if a man sins in the pulpit, he should sit in the pew until his repentance is as notorious as his sin.

Pete Alwinson: Yeah. Isn't that amazing?

Steve Brown: Oh, that's a I love it. And I think that's true. And the issue really is repentance.

Pete Alwinson: Mm.

Steve Brown: You know, you and I both have served a lot of years as a pastor. And as pastors, we've heard so many confessions. And some people clean up better than others. But we know that the fall has affected us deeply and profoundly.

Pete Alwinson: Mm.

Steve Brown: And so you look at Deuteronomy 24, God knew that, so he made provisions for divorce.

Pete Alwinson: Right.

Steve Brown: You read Matthew 18, and Jesus has another kick on it. He adds something to it about putting a wife away instead of giving her a certificate of divorce. You find Paul giving some areas where divorce are possible.

So, I would say if a person is divorced, that's a red flag, because because leadership requires wisdom and perseverance. And neither have been extent generally when a divorce takes place.

Pete Alwinson: Boy, that's good.

Steve Brown: But I don't want to.

Pete Alwinson: No, I think that's good. I think it starts out what you've what you've said is, well, was the the man, the woman, because we have to include there are women pastors these days, and we would we would have a biblical position on that as well. But

Steve Brown: Yeah.

Pete Alwinson: there are if the if the sin was while in a pastorate, then I think the Spurgeon quote is is completely accurate, and then the Presbytery or the leadership body over that elder, that pastor would make decisions about his future ministry.

Steve Brown: Yeah.

Pete Alwinson: But I think, you know, the one nuance would be to say also that some people are divorced before they come to faith in Christ, then remarried, and live a life of faithfulness and to to that one spouse, and and

Steve Brown: And I have pastor friends who are in exactly that position.

Pete Alwinson: So, there's a lot, when you think of the Corinthians, there were a mess that had every notorious sin you could ever imagine.

Steve Brown: Even worse than we are.

Pete Alwinson: That's right. That's right. And so some of those people no doubt became eventual elders, deacons, pastors in churches.

Steve Brown: Yeah.

Pete Alwinson: Because that's what what Christ does. He redeems the dead, the spiritually dead.

Steve Brown: And he redeems Christians who fall.

Pete Alwinson: You know, Yes, he does.

Steve Brown: So you're listening when you hear Pete and I talk to we don't think grace ought to make you stupid.

Pete Alwinson: Right.

Steve Brown: You know, if you've got somebody who is really messed up his family and his world and his business, you don't want him running your church. That would be dumb.

Pete Alwinson: No. I mean, the principle in in in the pastoral epistles is above reproach.

Steve Brown: Yeah. That's true.

Pete Alwinson: Is the general principle that covers all the other. And then the other line of being a one woman man in particular is that's the literal husband of one wife.

Steve Brown: And people read that different ways. Some people read it as divorce, some people read it as a monogamous statement.

Pete Alwinson: Right.

Steve Brown: Some people say, does that include widows or widowers?

Pete Alwinson: Yeah. And and I would say no.

Steve Brown: I like no, of course not. And but your comment I think is so good that above reproach.

Pete Alwinson: Above generally speaking, that that is the overriding principle in leadership.

Steve Brown: So, look.

Pete Alwinson: And congregations have to make that decision about their own pastors.

Steve Brown: They really do.

Pete Alwinson: And new pastors that would come to them.

Steve Brown: So true. And but again, back to my original statement, I feel uncomfortable when you limit grace. You know, it's not limit. People listen to preachers and they think, yeah, but that's not me. My barber, Tom, who's now in heaven, because I led him to Christ an hour before he died.

Pete Alwinson: Oh, man.

Steve Brown: But he he said, you don't understand how bad I am. And he told me that a lot. And when he was dying, I said, shut up. I'm going to tell you something really important and you listen to me. And I went over there. And, you know, he was not a good person, and none of us are.

Pete Alwinson: None of us are.

Steve Brown: Oh, well, that's enough.

Pete Alwinson: Glad you did that.

Steve Brown: That's probably not very helpful, but. In the Old Testament, I've noticed that Moses was punished for striking a rock in anger. What's with that? Saul was removed from kingship. David lost his son. How can you say the Lord does not discipline us when we step out of line? What makes me different or better than Moses, David, or Saul?

Pete Alwinson: Did you say that, Steve?

Steve Brown: Never.

Pete Alwinson: No. I Come on, there're committed.

Steve Brown: You you got to demonstrate that you found me saying something before you criticize.

Pete Alwinson: Name the broadcast.

Steve Brown: No, I don't believe that at all. I believe God does discipline.

Pete Alwinson: Yeah.

Steve Brown: But he's our Father. Don't forget, he disciplines as a loving Father. And so God doesn't look at you and when you did something bad, says, I'm going to give you cancer. I mean, that would be a child abuser.

Pete Alwinson: All right. Now here here's a here's a a caveat to this. Does God judge us? Because he's they properly used the word discipline. God does discipline his children. We know that Hebrews chapter 12, right? He disciplines us.

Steve Brown: Oh, absolutely. It's clear that he does. And I've always taught that and you have too.

Pete Alwinson: So is that does he judge us?

Steve Brown: Well, the you know, that's the message of the gospel because the righteousness of Christ has been imputed to our account.

Pete Alwinson: Yeah.

Steve Brown: Uh and because Paul is clear in Romans, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Because those things are true, that doesn't mean that God is a dummy and doesn't understand and says, whatever you do, have a good time, it doesn't matter. Of course, God judges in that sense.

Pete Alwinson: In that sense, in the discipline sense.

Steve Brown: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Pete Alwinson: But you know, because so that's that's an important concept and clarification on that. Yeah. All right. So you're exonerated from heresy, right, Steve?

Steve Brown: Yes.

Pete Alwinson: Okay.

Steve Brown: I mean, don't accuse me. I do enough stuff for which I ought to be criticized. I can't tell you the number of times. And I bet you've done this. When after a sermon, you've said to yourself, I shouldn't have said that.

Pete Alwinson: Oh, man. After some of your sermons, I said, he shouldn't have said that.

Steve Brown: Yeah, right. And so don't say I said something I didn't say. I didn't say that. Yes, God does discipline. But never in anger because he's not angry at his people. Hey, Key Life is a listener supported production of Key Life Network.