Key Life Network

Steve Brown: How do you balance grace and judgment? Let's answer that on this edition of Key Life.

Matthew: If you think laughter isn't spiritual or that faithfulness to God means conformity to Christian stereotypes, then this program probably isn't for you. But if you're looking for honest biblical answers to hard questions, then welcome to Key Life. Here's our host, author and seminary professor Steve Brown, along with Pete Alwinson from Forge Truth.

Steve Brown: Thank you, Matthew. Hi, Pete.

Pete Alwinson: Hey, man. How you doing?

Steve Brown: I'm doing really good.

Pete Alwinson: You look good.

Steve Brown: Unless our man would be dead.

Pete Alwinson: I know, and you're swimming

Steve Brown: Everybody I know my my age is dead.

Pete Alwinson: That is not true. That is not true. You're pounding it out. You're breaking the waves. Oh, man.

Steve Brown: No, I really am and and shouldn't be, but I still swim and I still do things like this.

Pete Alwinson: God is good. God is good all the time.

Steve Brown: But if I should die, it'd be your responsibility. I just want you to remember that. And you know, the statistic is one out of one.

Pete Alwinson: That's true. Good reminder.

Steve Brown: That's Pete Alwinson and if you haven't checked out for truth .com, you ought to do it. There's a podcast there that will blow you away and you'll like it. If you're a guy, especially if you not want to know what men think or what they ought to think, go to that website and find out if you are a female. Pete, as you know, comes in each week on Fridays and we answer your questions and we love you and your questions. You can ask your question anytime you want to. Call 1800 Key Life. That's 1800 539 5433 and follow instructions.

And sometimes we put your voice on the air or you can write to Key Life Network. That's box 5000 Maitland, Florida 32794. In Canada, it's Key Life Canada Post Office Box 28060 Waterloo, Ontario N2L 6J8. Or you can email us at steve at keylife.org. And those touch points are places where should the spirit move, you could help us financially. And if you do, I promise we'll be as faithful with your gift as you were in the giving of it. And if you can't, we understand. Say a prayer for this ministry. That would be appreciated a lot.

Pete, speaking of prayer, say a prayer and we'll answer these questions.

Pete Alwinson: You got it. Let's pray together. Our great God, what a joy to come into your presence at the end of this week and to lift up your holy name for you are holy, high and holy and lifted up Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And we lift up your your your glory, your majesty, the fact that you are are know everything, that you are infinite, that you are in every place. You know us fully and you're merciful. And yet you are the holy judge of the universe. Thank you for your grace. Thank you for seeing us through this week.

We honor and praise you. And Lord, at the end of this week, you know our needs, the the needs that we have in work and family and finances in so many areas. We don't have it all together. We need you every day. And now we pray for those who are going to lead us this weekend, our our pastors, our priests, our teachers, leaders, worship directors, all those that you have appointed to lead us into your presence and to shepherd us. And so we pray for this weekend as we worship. And now we commit this time of Q&A to you.

Thank you for Steve and all of those at Key Life who behind the scenes do so much to minister to so many. We commit this time in your holy name, Jesus. Amen.

Steve Brown: Amen. Pete, let's first go to our phone lines.

Guest (Male): Yes. So listening today to the message with Jerry, Jerry and Steve Brown. Steve talking about God not casting anyone out. Those that come to him in faith, they'll know why it's to be cast out. What do we do though with instances like in the Old Testament where Ann and his bands, the earth swallowed them up when they kept continuing to murmur and complain against Moses and rebel against God. Now, were they ever saved, ever believers? God didn't have any more mercy and grace on them. What do we do with that? And what about Ananias and Sapphira in the New Testament?

They were also struck dead by God. God didn't continue to give them mercy and grace. And then we have the book of Revelation. What do we do with it when it says God blots people out of his book? Says they were blotted out of the book of life. There has to be a balance of God's mercies and his judgments.

Steve Brown: Yes, there really does. And and obviously you don't believe in perseverance of the saints or eternal security. And we understand there are a lot of believers who don't who love Jesus who are wrong. But you got first you got to there you've got to separate what's going on in terms of repercussions which with what's going on eternally. For instance, if you're a part of a theocracy and somebody is really messing it up for everybody else and you kick them out or God kicks them out, does that mean forever? And I there is a lot of scripture and young man, a whole lot of scripture that would suggest it's not eternally.

They may not be saved and that's eternal. But if they're in the family of God, repercussions do not inform eternity. And you can't do that. Priscilla and Aquila, for instance, you got them dying because God said, you know, I not going to keep you in the middle of my people. You're messing it up so bad you're hurting things financially.

Pete Alwinson: Ananias and Sapphira.

Steve Brown: Oh, I'm sorry. Who did I say?

Pete Alwinson: Yeah. You said Aquila and Priscilla, but we were talking It's because you and I were talking about them.

Steve Brown: We were talking about a Priscilla before we came in here. But you go to Ananias and Sapphira, they really were messing things up. And God removed them. I've had I've always said there was nothing wrong with the church. I couldn't fix it with a few funerals. And sometimes some of them died. Did were they lost for all of eternity? I don't think so.

Pete Alwinson: Yeah. See, I don't and even with the guys with Cora and his rebellion, we don't know we don't know.

Steve Brown: We just don't know that. But you got it. Let me give the principle I want you to talk about it. The old The New Testament interprets the new. The letters interpret the Gospels and the whole interprets its different parts. And you can't take those out of context without the whole witness of scripture. Now.

Pete Alwinson: Now, good point. Good point. And there there is also sort of in addition to that an underline what you just said is this this principle that there are different times in the working out of God's kingdom plans.

Steve Brown: Yeah.

Pete Alwinson: And certainly with Moses at the very beginning, that was a crucial institutionary time for the people of God in the same way that Ananias and Sapphira It was a crucial institutionary time in the early church. And And God could not allow certain things to take place or the the church in the New Testament and people of God in the old would have gotten off on on the wrong footing.

Steve Brown: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So good.

Pete Alwinson: All of that, it's a big issue. It's a very good question that he asks.

Steve Brown: And Pete and I And as I said, there are others who would disagree. Dennis Kinlaw, who was the the head of Asbury Seminary, disagreed with me on this particular issue. But he said, Steve, I believe somebody can lose their salvation, but that's not an easy thing to do. And so even those scholars who are who have who have problems with eternal security and who have thought about it, don't say every time you say a white lie, you lose your salvation. That's crazy. And it's not from God or the Bible.

Pete Alwinson: Right. Right. Mhm. Mhm.

Steve Brown: In fact, when Jesus said and no one shall take them out of my hands, I take that literally.

Pete Alwinson: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Good.

Steve Brown: That's good. Good question though and we understand it. This is an email, Pete. You recently said something like no one has ever been converted by someone else's purity. Can you explain that, brother?

Pete Alwinson: You said it, so you get to explain it. But I think what you're what you're getting at there in general is that we need to be godly in our Christian lives. But that But our moral example is not what converts somebody else's heart. It can help.

Steve Brown: Yeah, or it can hurt.

Pete Alwinson: Could hurt.

Steve Brown: Yeah, it can make You know, there's a problem with self-righteousness in the church and that can be a real problem. And there Listen, there are Christian went before I was a Christian, I simply didn't want whatever it was that made friends who were Christians Christian. I mean, it's not something I wanted. I don't want that part of mine because they made it into rules. And I already had enough rules from my mother. I didn't need more from God. And so I mean that. I mean self-righteousness. What Pete said was so good. I think that's true.

And I think that if our godliness And by the way, that's always tainted.

Pete Alwinson: It's always tainted. That's right.

Steve Brown: Yeah. One of the advantages you and I have is that all the leaders of the church came to us and confessed so we knew the truth. I had a guy one time that told me came by one Wednesday night after a testimony and said, I'm leaving the church. I said, what for? He said, I listened all night and I can't do that. And I said, I don't reveal secrets, but there's more to that story. And as soon as he left the office, I called that man and I said, you just lost one for us. And I want you to fix it.

I want you to confess 10 of your biggest sins to this particular guy so he'll come back to church. And he And he did. And the man came back to the church. So that's what I mean.

Pete Alwinson: Yeah, our our lives, our sanctification, three steps forward, sometimes two steps backward. But we're by the grace of God making process, progress. But But it's the righteousness that he calls us to is not a self-righteousness. And it is not a pure righteousness. And so even in the Old Testament, when David talks about the godly man, he's saying the man that is trying to follow God. He's not saying a a man or woman that is perfect.

Steve Brown: Exactly. I agree. And And by the way, I would see that basically not that he's a Christian because he doesn't drink, smoke or curse, but he's a Christian because he loves. And that love does win people to Christ. And it's unconditional to them in the way it was unconditional to us.

Pete Alwinson: Good. That's good.

Steve Brown: We're about out of time. You going to sing a hymn?

Pete Alwinson: Yeah. No, you can if you want to, but we'll lose people.

Steve Brown: I know. Got to go. Hey, Key Life is a listener supported production of Key Life Network.