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Inseong J Kim: Hello, this is Inseong Kim from Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow. And we have a special guest, author of "Difficult to Conceive," Angela Mackey is with us. Thank you so much.

Angela Mackey: Thank you for having me.

Inseong J Kim: Yes. Just share with us about yourself and about your book.

Angela Mackey: Well, I am a child of God who longs to make much of her Savior. I have a podcast. I have written the book that you just mentioned, "Difficult to Conceive." And through the grace of God, I've been walking with him for about 43 years. That seems crazy.

But I experienced a really difficult time about 20 years ago where I had two tubal pregnancies, one in each of my tubes, and they both ruptured. So within about an eight-month period, I lost my ability to conceive children naturally.

Inseong J Kim: Oh, wow. That's very difficult. I bet. But you sound like you are 20-some years old. You don’t sound like that was 20 years ago. Yes.

Angela Mackey: Yes, so about 20 years ago, and the Lord had called me to write a book. When I was in the hospital after one of my tubal pregnancies, I prayed that God would not let me go through something that difficult without it having purpose. And I thought he was going to let me share the Lord with somebody in the hospital, but instead he called me to write a book.

Inseong J Kim: Yes. And you said, "You are not alone if you have ever longed for a child and begged God for a baby of your own." And there are probably numerous women out there having the same journey, right?

Angela Mackey: Yes, the statistics are about one in six couples experience infertility at some point in their journey. And yet it feels so isolating and lonely. And so the biggest lie that Satan wants to tell us is we are alone and we are unable to even feel joy ever again because we can't have this child that God designed a female body to have.

Inseong J Kim: Yes. We have a little bit of a cultural conflict that we've been having since this women's right movement came in, and we were confused about the role. But I think the younger generation is going back to the traditional woman.

There's a desire there that wants to marry and wants to have children. And so when we find out, I think culturally, the age issue has shifted from the 20s to 30s. Would you agree with that?

Angela Mackey: Yes, in our culture, a lot of young women are marrying later in life and looking to have children a little bit later in life. Yes.

Inseong J Kim: Yeah. I think that's not all the reason, but that can contribute to missing the best time to have children.

Angela Mackey: Yes, that can contribute a little bit because what advanced maternal age is considered is 35. So 35 is young, but your ovaries are not young at 35. So yes, that can contribute to some of that, for sure.

Inseong J Kim: Yeah. I think that's the misleading thing that people don't realize. I think it was even my generation, too, that wants to have children when we are ready. But it was never a time that we feel ready, right?

Angela Mackey: Right. Well, I think that there's a couple of things that feed into how difficult infertility is for people. And I think one of the things is, as a church, we forget that women do have more purpose than just having babies.

And so sometimes we think that my only value or only purpose as a Christian woman is to have children. And while yes, being a mother is a joy and a privilege and it's definitely a God-given thing, it is not the only thing that women were created to be.

Inseong J Kim: Yeah, absolutely. But along with that, there is definitely a grief or pain not being able to have children, right?

Angela Mackey: Yes. When you want to have a child and you don't, you kind of have to ask the question: how do I love a God who is able to give me children, but he is not right now? And what do I do with that pain and that confusion?

Inseong J Kim: Yes. So would you share with us how our audience who's listening to our program can navigate that journey, including grandparents and family all together when we experience this expectation is not happening? How would you encourage those families?

Angela Mackey: Yes. Well, first, for the woman: keep going to the Lord. Tell him that you're upset. Tell him that you're sad. Tell him that you're confused. Ask him why. And as you come to him, he will work on and change your heart. So keep going to the word, keep praying to him, and keep coming to him.

For her support group, her spouse or her sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, grandparents, parents... we like to tease people who are younger about why they don't have children yet, but we don't really know what struggle they're going through.

So be gentle. It's probably not smart to ask, "So when are you going to have babies?" because you don't know. Maybe they've been trying for 10 years. So it is smart to support, to love, to encourage, but to be very careful about what you say and how you say it to people who are young and married who don't have children yet.

Or even who do, because I had one child fine and then I was unable to conceive after the two tubal pregnancies. So you never really know what infertility looks like. It can look differently.

Inseong J Kim: Yeah. Because we all think we are healthy, normal, but we don't know individually what kind of journey we are going through, right? So like you said, we've got to be very careful and very supportive in the situation that a young generation is going through.

I think it's when children are expected in a certain age group. And I think we normally casually ask, "Oh, when you're going to have a child?" without, like you said, understanding what is going on with their lives. It's hard to share, right?

Angela Mackey: Yes. I think one thing that I encourage, especially if you are just entering into a young couple's life and you don't know much about their story: instead of saying, "Do you have children?", you could say maybe something like, "Tell me about your family."

Because then this young married person can tell you about their spouse, they can tell you about their siblings, they can tell you about their parents, but they don't feel pressured to tell you why they don't have kids or not or any of those questions.

Inseong J Kim: Yes. Because that's a very casual conversation when we meet a young couple who's been married and not having children, then we automatically culturally ask those questions. But I think knowing and understanding the infertility rates and all kinds of other issues, I think we should create a safe conversation within church, within family.

Being educated is important. I think that's where your book comes in. Please share a little bit more about your book.

Angela Mackey: Yes. It's titled "Difficult to Conceive: A Godly Perspective for the Road Ahead." And I wrote it really for the women dealing with infertility so that they would feel like they have a friend who has walked the road ahead of them.

And maybe they're sitting down at a coffee table and we're talking about the real things. So I talk about how do you ask God why? I talk about where we see God working in the lives of women in the Scripture who have experienced infertility.

I even discuss what are some ways you can navigate the difficult questions surrounding treatments. Like should I use IVF? Should I use other types of treatments? So what are the things that we can navigate and what are the things we need to think through as we consider those things?

Inseong J Kim: Yes, many issues out there that haven't been cultivated as a ministry because it's new issues. And we're discovering more and more. So I am so glad that God called you to encourage those women who are struggling. Tell us a little bit more about "Rethinking My Thinking" through your website.

Angela Mackey: So my overarching ministry is titled "Rethinking My Thinking." I encourage people to rethink their thinking in light of God's word that they may live transformed lives.

And that's based on Romans 12:2 where it says, "Do not be conformed to the pattern of this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you'll be able to test and approve what the will of God is."

And so when we can take the time to allow Scripture to help us think correctly and well, and think the way the Lord wants us to think, then it helps us live lives that can glorify and honor God.

Inseong J Kim: Yes. It is very difficult to deal with the world's perspective on traditional ways of thinking at the same time how much our culture is changing. And we've never adjusted our conversation, right? So how we think can affect things, especially when it comes down to infertility. Our time has to be more discussed and shared about their grief and comfort and encouragement together.

Angela Mackey: Yes, and it helps us have a curious mind so that we can understand more about what people have experienced. And then that helps us respond in love and kindness and treat others the way we would want to be treated.

And so it helps us keep our minds fresh, keep our minds focused on the Lord so that we can love well and live well in this world.

Inseong J Kim: Yes. It is very difficult to understand the world of women unless the woman leader steps up like you and openly communicates to have a ministry. We're more kind of shy and don't want to talk about the things that are really affecting all of us.

So it'll be great in the church to have a group who are in the same situation come together and encourage each other and comfort each other because there's nothing better than people getting together having a similar experience, right?

Angela Mackey: Yes, and we are finding more and more ministries popping up. Mostly they're para-church organizations, but there are some churches who do have ministries directed for individuals and couples dealing with infertility.

One in particular is called "12:12 Ministries." It's based off of Romans 12:12. And they seek to encourage and build up and walk beside women who are dealing with infertility in particular. So that's a really great resource for your listeners who are experiencing infertility.

Inseong J Kim: Yeah. There are many women in the Bible showing their grief, their agony, being unable to have children. So it's ancient times when women experienced the same thing as even today. It's not an easy journey for a woman to go through that process.

Angela Mackey: Yes. I mean, what's a blessing for us today is that if we are unable to have children, it's not going to affect us socioeconomically, typically. And of course, in ancient times, without children, without a male child in particular, you were often left destitute as a woman.

So that's a better thing for us. But yes, we still experience a lot of the same agony over: this is something that God created my body to be able to do and he's not allowing me to do it.

And there is a big grief, there's a laying down of our hopes and dreams and letting God decide how those hopes and dreams are going to be lived out. And sometimes that means we have to let him change those things, and sometimes that means that he may give us our hopes and dreams when it comes to having children.

Inseong J Kim: Yeah. So you talked about fostering joy by fighting against the things that can threaten our access to the joy of the Lord. And what are some of the things that form barriers to access to the joy of the Lord?

Angela Mackey: One of the biggest things is comparison. So we compare our lives to somebody else's lives and we think it's not fair. So that's a big one. Another one is when we look more at our circumstances than at the Lord.

Because when we look at our circumstances, they can seem hopeless. But with the Lord, all things are possible. And so focusing on him instead of our circumstances.

And then sometimes we get stuck in thinking: if I had only done something differently, things would be different. Or: when something happens, I will feel joy. And so all of those things can make it difficult for us to experience joy now.

Inseong J Kim: Yes. When we go to heaven, we will know everything that happened in our lives had God's purpose and is good for us at the end of the day, even though we cannot see it in this side of heaven, right?

Angela Mackey: Yes, and so we will have a better knowing and a better understanding. And on this side of heaven, if we're too focused on our circumstances, we will lose sight of the good that God might be working through them, for sure.

Inseong J Kim: Yeah. And in time, we might lose our joy and focusing on too much of the circumstance that we're in. And I think just like you shared, "Rethinking My Thinking," I think altering the way we think and focus on how God is leading us and using us in the situation we're in, like you been doing it, I think that is powerful.

Angela Mackey: Yeah, that is powerful. And then also in Hebrews, it tells us that we need to fix our eyes on Jesus because he endured the cross by joy. It says, "Fix your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross."

And so there is a joy that is set before us that maybe we won't see fully here on this earth, but we have the joy and the hope of heaven. We have the joy and hope that in God, all things will be made right.

We have the joy and hope of all of those things. And if we can keep our eyes fixed on Jesus who was able to do that on the cross, then we can experience any hard time on this earth by focusing on the joy that we have coming in heaven.

Inseong J Kim: Yes. The power of the ministry that the woman who's gone through the pain like you did. There is not even a necessity for words. It is just to be present there with you without even talking. I think that even comforts them because without conversation you might understand each other better, right?

Angela Mackey: Yes. Sometimes just being a vigil to her pain and just saying, "I brought you your favorite drink." Somebody would bring me coffee because that's my favorite drink.

And "You don't have to tell me anything, I just want you to know that I'm here." And just sit. And if she wants to talk, she can talk. If she doesn't want to talk, she can just cry. But just being there with her in presence and sitting on that grieving bench with her is so valuable. Yes.

Inseong J Kim: Yeah. So I think isn't that really a blessing? The more women step out in the situation that they experienced infertility, even seasonally, and then God gave them a new opportunity, but they experienced those seasons where they couldn't have children. I think if more women step out and be there for them, I think that would be a great ministry for the church, right?

Angela Mackey: Yes, I agree. We need women to bravely share their story. And I'll tell you, for a long time I didn't really want to. I didn't want to be the woman who was standing there talking about infertility because it is hard. It's a hard story and it's a hard thing to walk people through.

But I also know I don't want anybody to go through that alone because of how painful it is. And so the Lord kept reminding me that I needed to write the book that I wish I had when I went through infertility and I didn't. And so that's why I wrote this book.

And that's why I'm trying to help more and more churches see the need for understanding this problem and be able to provide really good guidance for the women in their ministries.

Inseong J Kim: So please share with us, I know it's very difficult for you to share it, but please share with us what part is difficult for you to step out and you don't want to step out to share your story.

Angela Mackey: Well, there's a lot of reasons. My infertility story is different than other people's. So sometimes I'm like, "Well, it's just not pretty." I had one child first naturally without a problem.

And then I ended up with two tubal pregnancies, one in each of my tubes, and they both ruptured. One of those ruptures, I actually lost half my circulating volume of blood and had to have a blood transfusion. So I was experiencing not only emotional pain of loss, but physical pain.

And then because it was both of my tubes that ruptured, the only way for us to have more children naturally was we had to move on to IVF. I had like a 90% chance of having another tubal pregnancy if I were to try that again. And so we did move on to IVF.

And IVF was hard. It was a blessing though. I ended up with two precious children through that. But there's a ton of moral, ethical, and spiritual things that you have to think through and consider when you're looking at doing that. And so the biggest thing that my husband and I knew is that any life that was created is a life worth saving. And so we have to make sure that we are valuing life no matter what.

Inseong J Kim: Yes. So what is the one thing you want to say to the woman listening who suffers from infertility now, today?

Angela Mackey: You are not alone. You are not alone. And you have purpose and value now even while you're hurting. And you will have purpose and value whether God gives you a child or not. And so I want you to know those things. And that the Lord is with you and he will comfort and guide you. He is near to the brokenhearted.

Inseong J Kim: Thank you so much for sharing such precious words with them, our audiences that often we don't hear from any social media or anything. So thank you so much for what you do. And thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you.

Angela Mackey: I'm so glad I could. If your listeners want to connect with me, I would love them to go to my website, rethinkingmythinking.com. And you can sign up for my newsletter. You'll get a free devotional and then you'll be able to connect with me regularly.

Inseong J Kim: Oh, thank you so much about your ministry. And we'll share your story with friends and family. Thank you so much for being with us. Thank you.

Angela Mackey: Thank you for having me.

Inseong J Kim: And thank you for listening to Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow. And whoever is listening to our program and meets a young couple who is going through a difficult season of their lives, please share about her book and website. "Difficult to Conceive" is the book title, authored by Angela L. Mackey. M-A-C-K-E-Y. And share her story and the book so we can minister to each other in our community.

So thank you for listening from Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow. We'll be back next week. Thank you.