Focus on the Family

John Fuller: Welcome to Focus on the Family's weekend broadcast. We hope the following program will challenge you and encourage you in your faith journey.

Guest (Female): My kids love the chocolate. I love the chocolate. We tend to overdo it at Easter.

Guest (Female): All the colored eggs and the baskets and spring dresses, it's all so pretty.

Guest (Male): Keep an eye out for the Easter Bunny.

Guest (Male): I mean, what kind of holiday doesn't give you a day off?

Guest (Male): Easter's like the beginning of spring, a time of renewal. Oh, yeah, and there's a special service at church, I think.

John Fuller: Well, Easter is this Sunday. I wonder how your family is going to celebrate. Colored eggs, lots of chocolate, how will the deeper meaning of the holiday come out? Welcome to another edition of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, it's fascinating how the story and influence of Jesus Christ continues to permeate our culture. It's evidence of who He was, right? The fact that we still recognize what He did, many people inside the faith and outside the faith.

But I think oftentimes, especially around Easter, a lot of people don't understand what it is. I remember going into a Blockbuster—now that's going to date me a little bit—in the 90s, and Jean and I went in to get an Easter video, something about Jesus.

We said, "Do you have any Easter videos?" And she looked at us like she was a little lost. I said, "You know, about Jesus." And she goes, "That's what Easter's about?" She goes, "I thought it was about the Easter Bunny." I mean, my jaw went down. I went, "Wow, here's a 25-year-old who has no clue what Easter is about." I think that is far more prevalent today than we realize. Don't you?

John Fuller: Yeah, I think there's a general misunderstanding about the roots of why we celebrate and also some repulsion. You're celebrating the death of this guy? Actually, no, we're not. We're celebrating His resurrection and our life, our eternal life. So I am looking forward to our discussion today with Bob Lepine. I think it will be really enlightening, especially for people that don't know what Easter is about. This is a great way to talk to that person and say, "Hey, here's a little book for you so you can know more about what Easter is about."

The book is *12 Things You Probably Didn't Know About Easter*. It's a terrific little resource. We've got details about it on our website. The link is at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or give us a call at 800-A-FAMILY. Bob Lepine is the teaching pastor at Redeemer Community Church in Little Rock, Arkansas. He's a long-time radio host and now hosts a podcast for pastors and church planters. He's an author and speaker about a number of topics, including family and faith.

Jim Daly: Bob, welcome back to Focus. It's good to see you again.

Bob Lepine: Great to see you guys. Thanks for the invitation.

Jim Daly: That story I told about Blockbuster, you weren't able to respond to that, but you mentioned in the book some British survey that described something similar.

Bob Lepine: They surveyed school children in England and asked them, "What's Easter all about?" Most of them thought it was about either the birth of the Easter Bunny, or they thought it was about eggs. Some of them thought it was about the invention of the Cadbury egg, the one that's served at Easter time.

Most of them did not know that it had anything to do with Jesus. In fact, most British parents are making plans for a holiday at Easter time rather than any kind of religious observance. It's a spring holiday, but most people don't understand its connection to the Christian faith. You stop and think about it, Easter in our view is a bigger day than Christmas. The only reason we celebrate Christmas is because of Easter. Had there been no Easter, the birth of Jesus would be lost to history.

Jim Daly: It really would be. Easter is the resurrection of Christ, which is what defines the entire story and why we as Christians believe in Him as our Messiah. In that regard, let me ask you this question. I hadn't thought about it too deeply, but where did we lose it? How did Christians lose the understanding globally about what Easter is about? It's not about a bunny. It is kind of weird to think of that. How did that happen?

Bob Lepine: In fact, one of the fun things I did for this book was to go and say, "Well, why are there bunnies and why are there eggs and why is there chocolate and why do we have hot cross buns and marshmallow peeps at Easter time?" I dug in and, interestingly enough, a lot of these have some kind of a connection to a spiritual theme that got lost along the way.

Jim Daly: Well, let's inform people. Like, for example, the Easter Bunny. Where does that come from?

Bob Lepine: This goes back to a German tradition. They had their own version of an Easter Santa Claus, a large bunny whom they called the Easter Bunny who would come and give gifts to boys and girls, candy gifts to boys and girls. It was part of their folklore.

Of course, bunnies are starting to hop around in the spring after a long winter where there have been fewer bunnies around. They've been hibernating for the winter. So when you start to see the bunnies in the spring and the little baby bunnies, people start to go, "Oh, there's new life happening here." It is that connection to new life that both eggs and bunnies point us to, that caused people to go, "What has been dead, the earth has been dead through the winter, but now it's coming alive again." Even in nature, there's a spiritual message that's coming through to us of life coming after death.

Jim Daly: And that's the core of it, right? Even rooted in that idea of life, life-giving, and new life, even fertility is mixed into this, which is where the eggs come from. Describe some of that as well.

Bob Lepine: That's gone on actually. There has been an Easter egg roll at the White House for more than a hundred years. Every year they go out and do these Easter egg rolls at the White House. It's become quite a tradition.

Eggs go back to the whole idea of life. You look at an egg, a child looks at an egg, it's motionless. There's nothing happening. Life is forming inside, but we don't see it. But there's one day when that egg breaks through, and it's a picture of a stone being rolled away, an obstacle being removed, and life coming out of what was inanimate in our view. Eggs have that symbolic representation to what's going on at Easter, and I think that's why eggs and Easter have gone together for years.

Jim Daly: Bob, let's turn to the more serious, spiritual side of things. I'm intrigued by your observation. I've actually never heard this, and you would think once I say it, people will say, "Wow, we should know that." But you studied this, I assume, and found that 18 different Jewish laws were broken during the trial of Jesus. I've never heard that before. How did you discover this fact?

Bob Lepine: Bible scholars have looked at this and looked at what happened from the arrest up until the crucifixion. Of course, the Jews had a judicial system. There were trials. There was a Sanhedrin. Your case would be pleaded before the Sanhedrin.

There were procedures that had to be followed because justice mattered to the Jewish people. So you needed everything to be confirmed by two or three credible witnesses. You needed to have a period of time between the presentation of the evidence and the adjudication of the sentence so that there could be a cooling down so that passions could slow down.

Think about the trial of Jesus. He's arrested in the middle of the night. We don't know what time, sometime around midnight, one in the morning. The Roman guards and the Jewish Temple guards come to the Garden of Gethsemane. He's arrested. He's taken to a trial in the middle of the night. Actually, there were four different trials that Jesus went through in the middle of the night before sunup. Caiaphas, the high priest, He went to him, then He was taken before the Sanhedrin, then He was taken to King Herod, who was the Jewish king, then He's back before the Sanhedrin, then He's moved to Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, for adjudication.

All of this is happening in the middle of the night. The witnesses who were brought forward contradicted one another in their testimony. They were obviously paid witnesses who were there giving uncredible testimony. And the sentence was pronounced at the same time that the testimony was heard. So all of this combines together to give us a picture of what was really a sham trial and a violation of Jewish laws.

The Jewish authorities wanted Jesus done away with before the Passover began because they were concerned that during the Passover His followers would come and that there would be a revolution that He would lead, and that's why they wanted Him taken care of immediately.

Jim Daly: And the people had just honored Him as He rode in on a donkey and waved palm branches and yelled "Hosanna," right? So that probably put a lot of fear into the leaders.

Bob Lepine: They saw that and they thought, "He's popular among the crowds." The reports of His miracles, their power base was being threatened. Their authority, their livelihood was at risk, and that's why they wanted this to happen in secret. They wanted it to happen quietly, out of the limelight of the events.

In fact, there's been a lot of talk about the crowd that was there the morning that Pilate came out and said, "Do you want Barabbas or do you want Jesus?" And the crowd said, "We want Barabbas, crucify Jesus." People have said these were the same people who were cheering Him on when He came into town. I don't think that's the case. This is before sunrise on the first day of Passover. I think most of the people who had come to town for Passover are still having breakfast or just getting up. No, the Jews had gone out and they had brought in their mob who was chanting, "Crucify Him, crucify Him."

Everything from the arrest all the way to the crucifixion was orchestrated and it was a complete violation of Jewish law. Actually, Pilate didn't want to put Jesus to death. He looked at this whole situation and he said, "This man does not deserve death." He would have let Him go, but the Jewish leaders went to him and they said, "You know, Rome has put you here to keep peace. And if you don't do what we say, we're going to report back to Rome that you're not keeping the peace and you'll be in trouble with Caesar." That was ultimately what caused Pilate to say, "Okay, I'll let you have your way," even though He's innocent in my eyes. He washed his hands and said, "Do with Him what you will."

Jim Daly: You're a pastor, and this is again some evidence that helped me in my early 20s to really cement my faith. I think it was one of the leaders who said, "If this is of man, it'll rise up and then die out like every other uprising that's happened. But if this is of God, first of all, there's no stopping it. And secondly, you're going to be found fighting against God." Do we want to go against God?

What caught me about that prophecy was that he was declaring in that moment, during that trial, when all that was happening, he was warning them to be careful about what they're going to do with this man called Jesus. And 2,000 years later, we can look and say, "Well, was it of man or was it of God?"

Bob Lepine: His words rang true. Stop and think about it. The Roman guards who, under penalty of death, were supposed to make sure that that stone was guarded, they were nowhere to be seen on Easter morning. They had fled because of what had happened. All of Jesus' followers who were frightened when Jesus was arrested were now declaring to the crowd, "He is risen, He is risen."

They continued that proclamation until their own death. I remember Charles Colson, who was involved in the Watergate conspiracy in the Nixon administration, and he said, "I know something about conspiracies." He said most conspiracies don't hold up because somebody will finally say, "Okay, we were making that up." Somebody finally cracks. He said here were 12 disciples who went to their own death without any of them refuting what they had seen because when you have seen a risen Jesus who says, "You will be with Me," they say, "What does death matter to me? I'm going to go to be with Him," and that's where they long to be anyway.

John Fuller: This Focus on the Family broadcast will continue in just a moment.

Jim Daly: Hey parents, Adventures in Odyssey has been helping kids like yours form relationships with Christ for almost 40 years. Now the animated Adventures in Odyssey film *Journey into the Impossible* will reach a new generation of families. But we need your help to finish the film and launch it in theaters. Your gift will be matched dollar for dollar before May 1st. See the trailer and donate today at focusonthefamily.com/impossible. That’s focusonthefamily.com/impossible.

John Fuller: God wants true disciples—ones that think like Him, talk like Him, walk like Him. Disciples that bring shalom to the chaos of this world. Pursue that path with the RVL Discipleship Series. Bible scholar Ray Vander Laan will give you the tools to understand the Bible more deeply and inspire you to be a passionate follower of Christ. Watch the first episode at rvldiscipleship.com.

John Fuller: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. Let’s resume now with the balance of today’s programming.

Jim Daly: Bob, let me ask you this. We as Christians refer to today, Friday, as Good Friday. Some people I've talked to, they've often said outside of the family of faith, "Why do you Christians call it Good Friday? That's when Jesus was tried and killed." Explain the "good" part of Good Friday.

Bob Lepine: As we gather together, as we will tonight at our church for a Good Friday celebration, it will be a sober mood that we will have because we'll be remembering the brutality of His death. You set the tone of what that day meant 2,000 years ago. It was a brutal, excruciating death. The suffering that Jesus went through is not to be minimized. When we talk about Good Friday being good, we're not talking about the events; we're talking about the outcome of those events.

It is not good because of what happened to Jesus—the torture, the abuse, the death of Jesus. The reason it's good is because of what it accomplished for us. He paid in His death a price that we owed but we could not pay. He had lived a life we couldn't live, He paid a debt we couldn't pay, and in going to the cross, He brought about our salvation.

The Bible says it this way: "God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, so that we could become the righteousness of God." We don't have righteousness in ourselves that we can come before God and say, "Hey, look at my righteousness. Don't I belong with You?" God will say, "Well, no, as we look at your righteousness, it's deficient." Any of us who look honestly at our own lives would have to acknowledge I don't have righteousness that entitles me to a position before God. Jesus had perfect righteousness, and God made the one with perfect righteousness to be sin on our account to take our sin so that we could then have the righteousness that belonged to Him put like a robe over us. Now when God looks at us, He says, "Oh, I see your righteousness." He's really seeing the righteousness of Christ covering us, and that's why Good Friday is Good Friday.

Jim Daly: Bob, let me dig into this a little bit because I've had a family member who recently came to the Lord after decades of the rest of us being Christian. One of the things that she told me, she just struggled with that concept: "I didn't kill Christ. Why do we talk in terms like He had to die for me?" It's almost in an understanding of guilt. Like, "I don't want that guilt. I didn't ask Him to die for me." Just unpack that as a pastor a little more slowly for people who struggle with "I didn't send Jesus to die for me. Why do you say that?"

Bob Lepine: The breakthrough in my thinking, because I'd grown up hearing Jesus died for your sins, there were two breakthroughs that happened for me. First was to the acknowledgment that my sins were a bigger deal than I realized they were. I'd always thought I'm a mostly good person who's done a few bad things. And the Bible had to correct my thinking and say, "You're a mostly self-centered person who cares only about you and who adjusts everything around your life to orbit around you." That correction made me see, oh, it's a bigger deal than I realized.

But the other breakthrough happened. I remember I was sitting on a bus riding from suburban St. Louis to Jefferson City, Missouri. I was in high school, and I was reading on the bus *The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe*, the first of the *Chronicles of Narnia*. When I read about the death of Aslan on the stone table in the place of Edmund, the one who was the traitor, I closed the book and I said, "That's what it means. Jesus died for my sins. He went to the place I deserved to go, and He took the death I deserved to receive so that I could be liberated from my bondage to sin and self, to my own passions, appetites, and desires." That's where I found freedom in the death and resurrection of Christ.

Jim Daly: That is so good. You know, I think too, Bob, the other aspect of our culture today, we live in a very science-oriented, materialistic, "prove it to me" kind of attitude. Some of that is good. The realization, though, is we're never going to attain salvation in Christ that way. God requires it to be by faith. Now, if you want to argue with Him about that, go ahead, but there needs to be that element. I can understand that. If it were so declarative and so obvious, it wouldn't be a step of faith.

Bob Lepine: I think that those who doubt can either find their rest and their confidence in their doubt and say, "Well, I'm just going to let my doubts be my foundation," or they can do this. They can go to God with their doubts. God does not turn away doubters and say, "You can't come into My presence." No, bring your doubts to Him and say, "Prove to me this is true."

Josh McDowell did that as a young man. He had his doubts, and he said, "Okay, You're going to have to show me that this is true." I think any honest observer who will take the evidence and lay it side-by-side and say, "Okay, either Jesus died, He was in a tomb, but they've never been able to find the body and all of these people died knowing it was a lie, do I really think that that's what happened? Christianity is all built on this false premise that somebody died and people just made up a story about Him coming back."

The more you investigate, the more you find that the evidence supports the conclusion. Now, can you say, "Can I be sure? Can I be sure that this is true?" That's where the gap between the evidence and faith comes in. Faith comes in to say, "Can I be sure? No, this happened years ago, there's no scientific way to prove it, but this is where I have to say based on the evidence, I'm going to believe that's true," and God honors that faith.

Jim Daly: Give us two or three of those evidentiary points that come from the resurrection.

Bob Lepine: Well, there were hundreds of witnesses who saw Jesus. He appeared before hundreds of witnesses who, at the time that the Gospel stories were being written, were still alive, who could still verify or who could have called foul on the whole thing. They could have said, "Nobody saw..." No, these were people who said, "I saw it. I was there." So you had witness testimony to the resurrection.

You had no body ever found. You had Roman guards who had fled the scene in spite of the penalty of death. You had the disciples who went to their own death because they believed that this was true. Ultimately, even the Apostle Paul, who was trying to persecute Christians, God appeared to him on the road to Damascus, turned his whole life upside down, and Paul went to his own death because he had no other conclusion other than this must be true. Part of the evidence we have today is the lives that have been transformed of people we know in our day. We've seen people who were headed in one direction and they meet Jesus and their lives get revolutionized and transformed. I can introduce you to person after person. I'm a testimony of that myself. So it's the lives of the transformed lives of people in our day that I think offer great testimony to the reality of the resurrection.

Jim Daly: I like the challenge you mentioned a moment ago because I think this is really correct in that if you have your doubts, just go to God. Say, "Lord, I don't fully believe. I don't know if You're there, really. If You can show Yourself to me, that would be helpful." I think when people do that, the Lord shows up. I've never heard the other testimony. I've often heard, "I prayed that prayer, and God showed up for me."

Bob Lepine: If you go sincerely and say, "Lord, I want to know if this is true," and you don't set up and say, "And for it to be true, I need skywriting in the clouds," you don't set up your own criteria, but say, "Lord, would You confirm this for me?" I think God sends those confirming signs. If we have eyes to see and ears to hear, I think about the man who came to Jesus with a sick son and he said, "Would You heal my son?" And He said, "You must believe for Me to heal him." And the man said, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief." I think he was saying, "I have a little bit of belief, but I've got all this unbelief. So I'm here because of the little bit of belief I have. Would You help my unbelief?" And Jesus healed his son, and that helped his unbelief. I think if you go to God and say, "Lord, I have a little bit of belief. Would You help my unbelief?" God will meet you there and will help satisfy what's true in your own heart.

Jim Daly: Let's end here, Bob. You point people to an important question that Jesus asked Martha, who was the sister of Mary and Lazarus, about the resurrection. The question is in John 11:25. What is that question, and why did it make such an impact?

Bob Lepine: This is at the scene where Martha's brother Lazarus has died and been in the tomb now for four days. Martha comes to Jesus and she says, "Lord, if You had been here, this would not have happened." And Jesus says, "Do you believe in the resurrection? Do you believe in the resurrection?" She thought He was asking, "Do I believe that people go to heaven when they die?" And she said, "Of course I do." And Jesus says, "I am the resurrection and the life." And then He says, "Do you believe?" She had to respond to that, that claim from Jesus: "Do you believe?"

Ultimately, she claimed that and, of course, she saw the miracle that took place when Lazarus walked out of that tomb after having been dead for four days. I love the fact that the King James Bible says Martha had said, "Lord, He's been in there four days. He stinketh," right? Very King James. But he walks out alive again. He had been in there four days because no one comes back after four days, and yet Jesus says, "Lazarus, come forth." He comes forth. Martha said, "Lord, I believe," and then God confirmed in the miracle of Lazarus that her belief was validated. I would say to listeners today, if you find yourself doubting, questioning, if you would take whatever little bit of faith you might have to God and say, "Lord, I believe this," and watch what God does. I believe He will show you new life for yourself and for others around you.

Jim Daly: Bob, this has been terrific. We started with chocolate bunnies and rolling Easter eggs, and I think this got right to the core point of who Jesus is and what He did for us. Thank you for this wonderful little book, *12 Things You Probably Didn't Know About Easter*. That includes some fun stuff along with some spiritual truth. So thanks for being with us.

Bob Lepine: Thank you. Great to be with you guys.

Jim Daly: And man, if you want a copy of this great read—it's quick and it is a wonderful handout to people who don't know the Lord in your sphere of influence. What a great way to get the conversation going and move it from chocolate eggs to the death and resurrection of Jesus, which is the most important decision that person's ever going to make that we've made. Get ahold of us and make a gift of any amount, and we'll send you a copy of this book as our way of saying thanks for being part of the ministry.

John Fuller: Yeah, we've got details about Bob's book and also a free article you can download called "Coming Home," which explains how you can become a Christian and why that is such a critical, vital, life-giving decision. We urge you to look for that at our website today. We're at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast, or call 800-A-FAMILY to learn more.

If your family has vacation plans this summer in our direction, please visit us here in Colorado Springs. We have such great history and spiritual encouragement for you, and, of course, natural beauty abounds. Lots of fun for the kids, too. Check our website to learn more. On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

John Fuller: You're listening to Focus on the Family's weekend broadcast. We'll take a quick break here and then return with another faith-building program for your family. Stay tuned.

Jim Daly: ChatGPT and AI can offer you ideas and attempt to give you answers, but it can't listen with compassion, pray with you, or offer biblical wisdom. Real connection is what brings true hope. Focus on the Family offers a free confidential consultation with a Christian counselor to guide you and help you find hope with whatever you're facing. Go to focusonthefamily.com/gethelp or call 1-800-A-FAMILY. That's 1-800, the letter A, the word FAMILY.

Guest (Male): And finally, from Numbers chapter 3, verses 17 through 20: "These were the names of the sons of Levi: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. These were the names of the Gershonite clans: Libni and Shimei. The Kohathite clans: Amram, Hebron, and Uzziel." Now, kids, isn't that an exciting Bible lesson for today? Kids? Kids?

John Fuller: And it doesn't get much more boring than that. Maybe Leviticus can take you there, too. I don't know. Sometimes the challenges of trying to be spiritual with your kids and having an effective devotional time, it gets hard. Maybe you didn't even want to start at some point because that was what you thought devotions could be. Well, we have some help for you and your kids today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, I just need to defend a little bit. Ray Vander Laan, who's done *That the World May Know* with us, he will always say when you're reading the Word and you come across something that kind of sticks out, like Numbers and genealogies, to stop and read that because there's importance to it. So we don't want to diminish, but 8-year-olds might struggle with that. And that's the point of that clip, that that's hard for an 8-year-old, 9-year-old, 10-year-old to wrap their heads around that. So it's important to have that kind of reverence for the Word of God, but at some point some of those scriptures can be a little dry for kids. Got to work that in, summarize, and get creative.

Today we want to talk about a great way to make those scriptures come alive with our guest who is an expert in translating those things from church language into kids' language so they can get it. He's written a great book, *The Really Radical Book for Kids*, which at first you go, "What? What? Radical?" Radical in Jesus. I'm going to have fun today. I'm looking forward to it.

John Fuller: Yeah, and the research, of course, shows that moms and dads are the number one influence when it comes to spiritual matters. So we're thrilled to have Champ Thornton in the studio with us. He works at Crossway Publishing and he helps children and families to grow spiritually and understand theology. Champ and his wife, Robyn, are the parents of three teens, and he's written a devotional book that will be the basis, as you said, Jim, for our conversation, *The Really Radical Book for Kids: More Truth, More Fun*. We've got copies of that at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: Champ, welcome to Focus on the Family.

Champ Thornton: Thanks, Jim. It's great to be here.

Jim Daly: What a great name. How'd you come up with Champ?

Champ Thornton: I had nothing to do with it. I know you were thinking it's like my athletic ability.

Jim Daly: Yeah, exactly.

Champ Thornton: But no, my mom and dad had a little girl who was born about a year before I was. She was premature and she lived about a day and passed away. Then about a year later they're expecting again and I come along and I'm premature as well. They didn't know if I was going to make it, the medical technology being what it was in the 70s. So my mom just fasted and prayed and sought the Lord that He would spare my life. And the doctor said, "Oh, he's a champ, he'll make it." And the Lord spared my life and the name stuck. So my real name is George, but no one calls me that.

Jim Daly: What a story, though! That's amazing, and that wasn't in the book.

Champ Thornton: God's kindness is amazing.

Jim Daly: God's kindness is amazing. Well, let me ask you from the get-go. We were kind of laughing there at the beginning in that intro we did, because that is kind of a typical evening devotion, especially when your kids are younger. So I just want to get right to it. When did you fail in your devotion with your kids? And what was the subject matter, and is that why you've written the book now?

Champ Thornton: Yeah, so I feel like I fail regularly because it'll be something I want to talk to my family about. And so I'm opening up God's Word and there's my wife and our three kids on the couch and we're talking and it's something I'm passionate about and I want to communicate it. I kind of get carried away and it goes a little long and then I kind of wrap it up, I land the plane, and I think I did a great job.

And then I say to my wife, "Anything you'd like to add?" Or I say to the kids, "What else, what does that make you think?" And the response one time from my wife was, "I think that about covers it, Champ." And that meant like, "I think we're done." And so that phrase now my kids say that at the end whenever we finish our Bible time together. I'm like, "What do you guys think?" And one of the kids will smirk and say, "I think that about covers it, Champ."

Jim Daly: You know, structurally—and this is true and I've talked about this before—you know, sometimes as we marry, we're typically opposites, not always, but extrovert-introvert, all those things. For my wife, she was a biochemistry major, and so she's very black and white. She wanted a very proper devotional time, five minutes of a little music and song and ten minutes of study and then let's wrap up with Q&A and that kind of thing. For the parents that struggle with that—and I was trying to convince her, "Hey, I'm on the move when I take them to school, we're talking about the Lord" or what have you—speak to that structural question of how to create an effective way to do devotions with your kids, age-appropriate, etc. And is there any perfect way or any better way, or is it, yeah, do some of all of it?

Champ Thornton: Yeah, I feel like the best way forward is to just try something. Better to do something and realize how you could make it better than not to lean in. One thing that we tried years ago that worked really great for our family—and it may not work for every family because you got to know your kids and their attention span and what they're thinking about in terms of their life issues at that point—is we had advice from someone I read about online where he said, "Take a Psalm, like a shorter Psalm, like Psalm 1. That's where we started. Psalm 1, or then Psalm 23, or Psalm 100."

And gather everybody around and say, "We're going to learn this Psalm together." And then read the whole thing, go back, read the first verse, have maybe your oldest kid try to say it, everybody try to say it together, and then let's pray. So we did this when our kids were, I don't know, one to two years ago, and so they're just kind of nodding along and maybe mouthing a few things. And then we prayed.

And then we did it again the next day, and we read verse one again, and then we read it again, and we tried to find ways of varying it up or have my wife read or my wife and my son read together or try to say it by memory. And then I was so, so surprised within a few weeks our whole family knew Psalm 1 word for word. I was shocked! Who knew? And so now like you said about driving in the car, now it was portable. So now we're driving on the way to the grocery store, I got the kids in the back and I'm like, "Hey guys, let's say Psalm 1 together. Micah, our oldest, why don't you start it off for us?" So he starts off verse one and then, "Okay, Jack, that's our youngest, why don't you take the next one?" And, "Kenzie, that's our middle child, why don't you say the next?" And they would stumble and it would be okay, but just a wonderful time.

And then you can ask questions, right? Like, "What do you think it means in Psalm 1 when it says he's like a tree planted by rivers of water? What is it talking about?" So it provides wonderful conversation and it's something that's so easy to do as a family.

Jim Daly: It's so true. Let me ask you in terms of culture, because culture, modern culture particularly, feels really disconnected from words of antiquity. But you make the case—maybe not so much—that human beings are pretty much the same when it gets down to our behaviors, our sins, our virtues, etc. So how do we, and how did you help close that gap with your own children, and what are you hoping for with the book to help other parents make ancient culture more relatable to modern culture?

Champ Thornton: Yeah, so I feel like the Bible just sets the tone for this because when you think about the phenomenon that we have Scripture and that it is profitable, Paul says to Timothy, for showing you what is right and how to—what is wrong in life and how you can make things right and how you can keep things right. These truths, God says, are coming out of an ancient book.

So if God can write something 3,000 years ago and it still be relevant, then that means that there's so much more that unites us as a human race than divides us. That I have a lot of cultural differences from people who lived in Abraham's day or David's kingdom, King David's day—tons of cultural differences, but I have so much in common. Why? Because it was God's Word then and it's God's Word now, and He knows what's going to resonate with people of any culture and any timeframe.

So God's Word also gives us the clue when we go to Deuteronomy chapter 6. When you go to Deuteronomy chapter 6, you know we have that very famous—and you kind of alluded to it, right? You're in the car and you're talking to your kids about the Lord. Well, Deuteronomy 6:6 says while you're walking down the way or getting up in the morning or driving in the minivan, you're talking about the Lord. But how does it start? That's not where it starts. It starts a few verses before, right? The Shema. It says, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." He's unique. There's only one like Him. He's the only true God. And you should have a unique love for Him. That you should love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

And then this is what you teach your children. So before we get to Deuteronomy 6:6 and we're riding around in the car talking to our children, how are we loving the Lord with all our heart? And that really is where it starts, because we can't pass along to our children something that we don't have ourselves. And we're going to have it imperfectly, but that ought to be our aspiration and our goal that I want to love the Lord. That is the main thing in my parenting, and then I want to pass it along to my kids.

Jim Daly: And Champ, one of things that's so important is we tend to think that they'll get enough of that at church. You know, we can go about just being family and having dinner and talking about news, weather, and sports. But really, as John said in the opening, parents have that unique role. They are the number one influence of their kids even through the teen years, which kind of shocks most of us parents today. But that survey information is still holding true that even teens will say their parents are the number one influence in their lives for the most part. So in that context, I want you to give that rah-rah for the parent who may be underselling their influence with their children and to take it more seriously. Don't leave it to the church to do it. You're the primary faith-giver and faith-teacher to your children. The church will augment that. But if we designate it or relegate it just to Sunday and Sunday school with our kids and the pastor, the youth pastor will take care of that, I think we're missing our God-given responsibility to do that.

Champ Thornton: Yeah, God has put that responsibility on us as parents. And there's also a responsibility the church has for our walk with Jesus and that doesn't exclude our children. But as we think about our relationship with our kids and the responsibility we have, I remember as a young parent having parenting books on my shelf and thinking, "How's this even work?" You know, this is a 230-page book and I'm supposed to remember at three in the morning something on page 116. Like, that's my mind doesn't work like that.

And so I really had to work and think, "Okay, what is our goal? How do we parent? What's going on?" And the phrase that I came up with that my wife and I use is that we want our kids—here's our goal—that when they leave the house at age 18, 19, whenever it is, we want them synced up with reality.

We want them living in the reality of this world. So that means that God is creator, He made everything, He made everything good. That also means this is a broken world and that we're sinners. It also means that He's not just creator, but He's savior. God sent His Son Jesus to be our rescuer because we're sinners. He rescues us from ourselves and He invites us into that relationship with the Father. And I want them to live in that reality.

But all of the rest of life is spinning this narrative that's untrue. So we kind of think as parents we want to be the naughty filter, right? So this show we're not going to watch that, it has these elements in it, or we're not going to talk about that because of the other thing. But the reality is we just go to the mall and every store is spinning fiction. That if you have this set of clothes, you'll feel this way, or if you have this toy, this is what it will do for you. They're not necessarily sinful, but they're not necessarily true. And so as parents we're there to help interpret for our kids what reality is and to help our kids live in sync with that reality.

John Fuller: This Focus on the Family broadcast will continue in just a moment.

Jim Daly: Hey parents, for almost 40 years Adventures in Odyssey has been helping kids like yours form relationships with Christ. Now the animated Adventures in Odyssey film *Journey into the Impossible* will reach a new generation of families. But we need your help to finish the film and launch it in theaters. Your gift will be matched dollar for dollar before May 1st. See the trailer and donate today at focusonthefamily.com/impossible. That’s focusonthefamily.com/impossible.

John Fuller: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. Let’s resume now with the balance of today’s programming.

John Fuller: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and our guest today is Champ Thornton. We're so glad to have him here talking about how to really make theology and Scripture come alive for your children. Get a copy of his book *The Really Radical Book for Kids*. We've got that here at the ministry and additional resources as well to help you as a parent. We're a phone call away: 800-A-FAMILY, or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: Champ, one of the chapters you mentioned Galileo's telescope, which we were just in Europe last summer and saw a number of Galileo's original telescopes. Amazing. And I always loved astronomy. So I connected with that section of the book. But you referred to it in comparison to a Bible telescope. So what point were you trying to make with Galileo's telescopes being like a Bible telescope?

Champ Thornton: Yeah, just connecting it back with the fact that we want our kids to live synced up with reality of God as creator and God as savior. Is that we go to church on Sunday and we hear about Jesus and He's our rescuer, amen, right? But He's also the one who made pizza so great! And soccer! Are you sure about that? Absolutely. Everything that we love about this world that He made it comes out of His creative mind. And so when we look to life in this world, we see so many lessons we can learn. Whether it's about a telescope and how that relates to the Bible, this book we want it in this book to relate things that are fun but also true.

So when we think about this telescope, we've got those three lenses like you put in a telescope, and we look at the Bible the same way. So those lenses are that we look through the Bible as if it's a window. Okay, so when we think about the stories of Jesus, like in Mark chapters 4 and 5, we see Him stilling the storm. Really happened. True story. We look through the Bible to a true event that happened.

But what's interesting is we also look at the lens like it's stained glass. In other words, the Gospel writers and other the writers of history in the Bible don't just tell stories that actually happened, they relate and arrange those stories in way that tell more of a mosaic, like a stained glass window. So notice the story about Jesus and stilling the storm, He also heals the demoniac which no one else could heal. And then He heals the woman who had the bleeding issue that no one could heal for 12 years. And then He heals a daughter who's not just sick but now she's dead. No one can fix that. Jesus does the impossible. So Mark is writing these stories together to show that something else is true about Jesus—that He can do the impossible.

But then the third lens is that when we look at the Bible, we look at it not just like through a window to actual events or stained glass telling a larger story, but also like a mirror because we learn that God has things to say to us and He wants us to change and become more like Jesus. And so when we read the Bible, it's not just about something out there and then, it's about right here and now.

Jim Daly: That's really an interesting approach. One of the things you talked about in the book, Champ, is using the game "Two Truths and a Lie" to help your kids. So what was your lesson out of that?

Champ Thornton: Yeah, so we found this game was a lot of fun at the dinner table, especially when the kids were younger because you know how it is. You ask your kid, "How was your day?" And what's the answer? "Fine." "What did you do?" "Stuff." It's like, okay, this is not good. One-word answers. Oh, it's awful.

So we came up with this game, and of course when the kids were little I thought, "Do we call it Two Truths and a Lie?" So I said, "Let's call it Three Things." All right, that's what we call it. But we said, "Okay, tell us two things that actually happened and one thing that didn't." And so then they would—and I got to tell you, I'm the world's worst at this game because I have no poker face. So I have to like cover my face with my hands when I play because they all know exactly which one's like the false one.

But the reality is, it occurred to me one day, have you ever noticed that like all the slogans out there in the world, like "be true to yourself" and "follow your heart" and "your body, your choice," or "you only live once," all those things you could put them on a bumper sticker. They're so meme-worthy, right? And I thought, "Why does the world have all the good slogans?" And it occurred to me, oh, it's because they're only telling half the truth. It's a truth and it's leaving something out. And the Bible gives a more full-orbed response, but those don't fit on bumper stickers nearly so easily. So you could say "follow your heart." Well, sure, God wants us to live authentically, right? But my heart is not always reliable. Right, our heart is deceitful often. And so there's more to the story, and that doesn't make a very catchy slogan.

Jim Daly: You know, what's interesting with that is so often how we want to detach those pithy good sayings from accountability. So "follow your heart under God's guidance" would be the fuller bumper sticker. But we want to cut that off all the time. I just want to follow my own heart. Totally independent of God. And that is the problem of culture and everybody, every household, because we are sinners like you said.

Let me ask you. Part of your passion to disciple children comes from a health crisis that you encountered in your 20s. Describe what happened and how did that motivate you to help children better understand spiritual truth?

Champ Thornton: Yeah, I was 29 years old and I developed a blood clot in my leg, which turned into a pulmonary embolism and, you know, I didn't know what it was, but people die from those, I found out. And then I found out that I had the clot because I have a blood condition, a genetic disorder that inclines me to clot.

So I'm 29 years old and you know you're not thinking about dying. You're thinking about, like, let's go, life is in front of us and all the things that I want to do and that hopefully God has planned for us. And then it all of a sudden makes you think about things you weren't thinking about thinking about. And so I would say maybe for the next decade of my life, probably not a day went by that I didn't think about dying. And maybe sometimes in a morbid way, but also I think in a healthy way that I'm mortal and that I'm not going to be here forever. And so when kids came along, I wanted to be able to leave something with them to say this is what's important to Dad. And so that really is a lot of the genesis of this book and its predecessor, *The Radical Book for Kids*, is I wanted to leave something for my kids like almost like a starter kit for the Christian life to help guide them in their faith.

Jim Daly: Your children are now—you have twins that are 15, and then you have a slightly older young adult, I believe. So for parents that are in a similar position where maybe now they have the teens and maybe a 20-something like you, but they feel like my eye wasn't on the ball and they're hearing this with a heavy heart, like I didn't concentrate on this, I did think the church would pick up the slack, I wasn't as good as I could have been in doing this transfer of my faith. What do you say to them now that they have a 15, a 16, 17-year-old? What can you do to make up some ground and not be too obvious in that desire to help your children better understand kind of the core principles of faith as they launch into adulthood?

Champ Thornton: It's a great question. I feel like with parenting a lot of it is a wisdom issue, right? So you know your family, you know your children, you know what's best in a certain situation. I think you need to lean into that and, if you have a spouse who's also a Christian, then conferring on, "Okay, what are best steps here with our kids?" I feel like that's important.

But I feel what's always applicable and always the right thing and the wise thing to do when we realize that something in our past is not what it could have been and should have been. The right response is always repentance. We say "I was wrong" or "I was foolish, God forgive me," and then where appropriate we share that with the people that we've sinned against. So you know, in this case if your children are teenagers and you realize you could have been a better parent in a particular way when they were younger, gather them up and say, "Can I share with you God has showed me I could have been a much better dad or mom when you were younger? Can I tell you in what ways? And would you forgive me? And I'd like to try to do better." And I feel like just being that example for them and being honest about not just here are the expectations in life, but here's where I've not lived up to those expectations.

Jim Daly: You know the irony, too, Champ. I want to play the other side of that coin because some parents that have been very diligent, the difficulty with humanity—and the Lord knows this better than anyone—is that we have free will and He has given that to us. And you might have done an excellent job, an A-plus in your parenting, and did all the right things, you did devotions, and that child has become a prodigal. And the weight and the guilt of some of that that parents have for what could I have done better, it almost takes it out of the hands of their free will and the Lord's design for their journey. You know some kids are going to have to hit a valley and we wear that very hard as a parent, like we beat ourselves up saying, "Where did I miss it, Lord? Where did I let You down, Lord, that this child You gave me responsibility for is not acting in a way that honors You?" What do you say to that parent?

Champ Thornton: Well, I feel like probably the first thing is not even something you say, but if I'm having a conversation with someone like that, maybe the first thing is listening. I want to hear, tell me more about your story, tell me more about your situation, how's it affecting you? I want to hear some of the pain that they're carrying, and not just that I hear it, but the Lord hears it. He knows. He knows the pain.

I do think when we talk about parenting, we're talking about a wisdom issue. And we go to Proverbs, for example, we see Proverbs is like a city map with streets and you know if you go down two blocks and turn left you'll be at your destination and it's very mapped out with causes and destinations. And we feel like, "Yeah, that's how parenting works. You do A, you do B, you do C, and it leads to D."

But what if it doesn't? Well, God is honest about that. And He's given us Ecclesiastes and the book of Job to show that A and B and C sometimes don't lead to D, it leads to Z. And if nothing else, the Lord is telling us, "I know that sometimes that happens in a broken world." But He's done more than that. He's done two things. In you go to the book of Psalms, you see lots of Psalms of praise. So when A and B and C leads to D, praise the Lord! And then when it leads to Z, there's Psalms of lament, Psalms of complaint. "Lord, hear us. Lord, You've done stuff in the past for our fathers. Would You do it for us now? Lord, where are You?" And these songs of complaint come from God. He wants those in our mouths to Him.

And so I would say to a parent who's struggling with this, learn and inhabit those Psalms of lament because God gave them for that purpose. And then the last thing I would say is God doesn't just speak to us from heaven about these things. He came down in the person of His Son and He walked this road of pain and disappointment, and He knew what it was like to have people close to Him who rejected Him, who turned on Him. And He's not God far away from you; He's a God who understands exactly what you're going through.

Jim Daly: Yeah, and that's so good. And listen, if you're that parent, get in touch with us. Focus has spent almost 50 years now compiling help for you. It's one of the things that we do, even like finding this great book by Champ Thornton, *The Really Radical Book for Kids: More Truth, More Fun*. This is what we're doing to help you, to identify those wonderful resources that can get into your hands and you can apply them. I mean, that's part of what we're doing here. So help us, help us to continue to do that. If you can make a gift of any amount—a one-time gift, a monthly gift to be part of the ministry—send that along and just ask for a copy of the book and we'll send it as our way of saying thank you for being part of this wonderful outreach that the Lord has provided.

John Fuller: Yeah, get in touch and donate today at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or call 800-A-FAMILY. And of course when you get in touch, Jim alluded to our counseling team and help that we can give you if you're in a spot where you're hurting about some of the things going on in your parenting journey. Call that number and ask for one of our counselors to give you a call back. It'd be a privilege for us, as Champ said, to listen to your story and to help as we can. Champ, thanks again for being with us. It's been great.

Champ Thornton: Thanks, Jim. I've enjoyed it.

John Fuller: And thank you for joining us as well. And by the way, if you happen to be traveling this summer to or near Colorado, we'd love to have you drop by and see us. We've got a wonderful bookstore here and a terrific play place for kids featuring exhibits from Adventures in Odyssey and our very own Whit's End Ice Cream and Soda Shop. It's fun for the whole family and we'll have a link on the website for you to check it out. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

John Fuller: You're listening to Focus on the Family's weekend broadcast. We'll take a quick break here and then return with another faith-building program for your family. Stay tuned.

Jim Daly: ChatGPT and AI can offer you ideas and attempt to give you answers, but it can't listen with compassion, pray with you, or offer biblical wisdom. Real connection is what brings true hope. Focus on the Family offers a free confidential consultation with a Christian counselor to guide you and help you find hope with whatever you're facing. Go to focusonthefamily.com/gethelp or call 1-800-A-FAMILY. That's 1-800, the letter A, the word FAMILY.