Focus on the Family

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Jim Daly: What am I going to do with this? How can I change this? How can I engage my child? But the child who's coming out today has been carrying this for days, weeks, months, and years, and are typically further down the road than the parent has any clue of.

John Fuller: Yeah.

Jim Daly: And they do love their parent in most cases and know what's going to break their parents' hearts.

John Fuller: That's Rob Jackson describing some of the challenges families are facing in today's LGBT-affirming culture, and we're going to explore this topic further on this episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, and this content is obviously not going to be suitable for younger listeners, so direct their attention elsewhere or listen later on the app.

Jim Daly: There you go. I love that warning, John. Thanks. And so many stations appreciate it, too. But it's important to talk about these things. You know, we need to equip the church to understand what's happening and how to hopefully deal with it in an honest, truthful, but kind way. Um we had some great, insightful conversation last time with Rob, who serves on our counseling team here at Focus on the Family. We have a team of more than 20 counselors that take calls to help listeners, viewers sort through issues going on in their life. In this case, we're talking about a son or daughter who affiliates with LGBT issues or identity, and then we as Christian parents, how do we react to that?

Maybe grandparents. There are going to be many people in the audience that are experiencing that. So how do you respond? We spoke about it last time. Get the app, go to the website. You can hear that conversation. We're going to pick it up today and continue to discuss how we equip ourselves to be unconditionally loving, unconditionally truthful, and do that in the spirit of Christ.

John Fuller: Yeah, and we mentioned last time that Rob has written a book for Focus on the Family. It's called When Grace Meets Conviction, Loving God and Your LGBT Child. And we also have a free download. It's called When a Loved One Says I'm Gay. Learn more about these resources and our guest at our website. And Jim, here's how you started part two of the conversation with Rob Jackson on today's episode of Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

Jim Daly: So your 16-year-old says, Mom, Dad, I'm gay. What's the first word out of your mouth?

Rob Jackson: We want the first word out of your mouth to be thank you. But it's going to take some time to get there because you've been caught off guard.

Jim Daly: You haven't been processing.

Rob Jackson: You have not been expecting this. And you may have gotten this information via a text,

Jim Daly: Mhm.

Rob Jackson: maybe over a telephone call. They may have just left, you know, for the Christmas holiday and got back to school and texted you on the way home. And you don't even have a good way to respond. That's happening a lot.

Jim Daly: So would it be good to say, Honey, I love you. I need time to process what you're saying. It's catching me off guard. I didn't understand what was going on for that. I apologize.

Rob Jackson: Absolutely.

Jim Daly: But let me come back to you. Give me just a little bit of space and time to kind of process

Rob Jackson: Yeah.

Jim Daly: what you have courageously shared with me, and I appreciate that.

Rob Jackson: Yeah. We can say to our parents, you know, more than likely your child has been anticipating this for days, weeks, months, or years, but it's new to you. And so you can say this did catch me off guard. I really appreciate you for telling me, but I'm going to need some time to get caught up, and I need some time just to reflect. I need some time to be quiet.

Jim Daly: Yeah. I'll tell you for for again the parents, the grandparents, doing it that way, you won't have a regret in the weeks and months ahead.

Rob Jackson: Right.

Jim Daly: If you are volatile, it will cause additional barriers to be engaged with your son or daughter.

Rob Jackson: That 's right. And the conflict between you and your son or daughter is going to spread into the total family. Extended families get all kind of crossways on this topic.

Jim Daly: Oh, yeah.

Rob Jackson: So it's going to be really important when your child comes to you for you to be able to respond rather than react.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Rob Jackson: And of course, I teach that just as a Christian principle anyway. Help us to respond in the spirit of Christ rather than react according to my human nature.

Jim Daly: I think that is a demarcation that's so critical. Loving somebody unconditionally, your child is not giving in to their sexual temptations. You're just acknowledging that I love you.

Rob Jackson: Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

Jim Daly: Regardless of what is going on in your life, I'm still your mom or dad and I love you.

Rob Jackson: Yeah. You know that a road has two ditches, one on either side, and one is to get all bent out of shape and reactive and angry and inappropriate. And the other is to come over here and say, I affirm everything about you.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Rob Jackson: Everything now and even in the future. You know, anything you bring to me, I will guarantee you I'm going to affirm it. That's the other ditch.

Jim Daly: Right.

Rob Jackson: Well, I think the middle way here is I am so comfortable telling you I love God and I love you. And this is not in conflict. You know? So I've been thinking through this now for years. I mean, basically how we come to the conclusion is my allegiance is to God. My love to God and you. They're very compatible.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Rob Jackson: But I have only one allegiance.

Jim Daly: Yeah. And that's Man, that's got to feel good to the child and the siblings if you have more than one kid. I mean, the idea that wow, we talk about being unconditionally loving. This will test it. And you're either going to end up a hypocrite or real.

Rob Jackson: Yep.

Jim Daly: And they won't be able to deny that. That if you continue to love them even during this time or through this,

Rob Jackson: Yep.

Jim Daly: they hopefully won't be able to say, Yeah, my my dad's a hypocrite.

Rob Jackson: Right. And I think the challenge, too, is in a family, you know, more than two people, of course, everyone's going to have a different opinion on what this is supposed to look like.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Rob Jackson: Whether we're talking about acceptance or whether we're talking about affirmation.

Jim Daly: But the word of God is what we need to lean into.

Rob Jackson: That's it.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Rob Jackson: Because the word of God is our foundation. He alone is our foundation. But as I mentioned in the first broadcast, it's leaning into the word of God with the help of the Holy Spirit,

Jim Daly: Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Jackson: not just reading the word of God with me myself and I.

Jim Daly: Right. Don't take things out of context or don't lean into one scripture.

Rob Jackson: Don't weaponize them.

Jim Daly: Right.

Rob Jackson: Yeah.

Jim Daly: Let me ask you this. I do want to bring some reality to the social issues that we are facing today. We're not saying be, you know, this pushover as a Christian.

Rob Jackson: Right.

Jim Daly: When Christians don't accept or affirm LGBT values, we're accused of being unloving, homophobic, just to use a word. But in reality, you know, LGBT and their movement has kind of skewed or changed the cultural definition of what love is. Can you explain what's going on with that, how they're moving that language, that vocabulary, which is powerful?

Rob Jackson: Yeah, thank you for the question. We're going to have to go back and say the Christian worldview recognizes there are many definitions of love in the biblical language. And so love in the biblical language would include agape, for example, loving unconditionally, loving as God loves us. When someone is speaking of a sexual love, that's Eros. That's a different word. And I am not wanting to get bogged down in the biblical languages, but I'm just trying to emphasize when someone says, you know, will you love who you love? Well, yeah, there's some truth to that. But how are we going to be defining that love?

Are we talking about agape? Are we talking about Eros? Are we talking about some of the other other forms of love? And so the Christian is trying to extend the agape love toward any child, any neighbor, any person on the street, everybody being treated with an agape kind of love.

Jim Daly: Sinner or saved?

Rob Jackson: Sinner or saved.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Rob Jackson: Sinner or saved sinner.

Jim Daly: Yeah, there you go. Right? Even better. So that in that context, yeah, I mean, that's really critical to realize that we have a war of words and understanding in the culture right now. And here's the problem though, Rob. When we get hit with that label, we back up and we go quiet.

Rob Jackson: Yeah. Right. Right.

Jim Daly: And I think many churches, many pastors are feeling that pressure socially to not put your head up.

Rob Jackson: Yeah. Well, I think the LGBT community has done a great job of causing conflict and confusion with language. Words really really matter. And we've not been playing catch up until just recently. So to your point, Christians who are convictional hardly know what language I'm supposed to use.

Jim Daly: Mhm. Yeah.

Rob Jackson: Even about my own convictions.

Jim Daly: Right. Right. Rob, probably one of the main questions we will get here at Focus on the Family from viewers and listeners will be a phone call to counseling saying I have a a gay child and they've invited us to the wedding.

Rob Jackson: Yeah.

Jim Daly: I don't know what to do.

Rob Jackson: Yeah. Well, it's the most difficult question I get from these callers. And I'm sympathetic because I mean, a wedding is supposed to be a great celebration. People are coming from everywhere, you know, that we haven't seen in years. And we're celebrating this couple. But I remind myself and the caller, you know, in the marriage of Adam and Eve in Genesis, the Bible begins with that wedding.

Jim Daly: Right.

Rob Jackson: And then in Revelation, it ends with a different wedding, the wedding of Christ and the church. And all throughout the 66 books, there are different marriages, but they're always a heterosexual marriage.

Jim Daly: Right. The bride and the bridegroom.

Rob Jackson: And so there's Exactly. There's the marriage metaphor, there's the spousal analogy, whatever you want to call it. We can't get away from it. It's baked into the word of God. And anything else is counter to God's design. Now, if we think of God as a designer, he knows how we function best. And I think that when we say, No, I know better, that's going back to the garden.

Jim Daly: Mhm.

Rob Jackson: That original temptation. God really doesn't know best for you. Here, take this. You'll know better than God. And so I'm encouraging people to say as you did, I love you. I want to respect you. I know this is an important day for you, but I'm not going to be able to endorse it with my presence.

Jim Daly: Yeah. I think that is the best biblical spot you can land on. But again, you know, talk to others, talk to your pastor and see what they say.

Rob Jackson: Yeah. And to the point, I mean, you know, when I started writing the book, there were times that I would think, I'm going to offend, you know, half the people or everyone, you know, because who can get everything right? Let alone if there's a 100 questions in this book. And you know, a year from now I may look at it and think, Wow, I could have done a better job with that question and answer.

Jim Daly: Mhm.

Rob Jackson: But it's trying to think through how do we how do we go to God and his scripture first instead of going to the culture or instead of even placing our loved one as an idol between us and God.

Jim Daly: Mhm.

Rob Jackson: I mean, I don't want to offend anyone, but I certainly don't want to offend God.

Jim Daly: Mhm. Yes. Start there.

Rob Jackson: And then if I do Yeah, and if I do offend you or someone else, let it not be by by disposition or my character. Let it only be on the basis of my conviction and the truth that God has given us.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Rob Jackson: But let me get me out of the way.

Jim Daly: Because then it's about us exactly and not about the gospel.

Rob Jackson: Well, and that's what I try to help parents understand. Don't make this about you.

Jim Daly: Yeah, but it's so hard. Let's be real. It's so hard because it's maybe embarrassing. It Man, what have I done wrong? All the guilt.

Rob Jackson: In my own In my own life as a parent on any number of topics, I have made things about me more times than I can count. And then I thought, Rob, you teach this stuff.

Jim Daly: Yeah.

Rob Jackson: Why have you blown it like this? And so it's even more difficult to go back and say, Oh, you know, I teach this stuff. I am sorry. I really blew this. Would you forgive me?

Jim Daly: Mhm. Powerful.

Rob Jackson: I hope because you know, all we can do is repent.

John Fuller: Mhm. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guest today is Rob Jackson, and we're covering some of the content in his excellent resource. As he mentioned, it's really a a Q&A formatted book with lots of questions and lots of solid biblical answers. The title is When Grace Meets Conviction, Loving God and Your LGBT Child. Get a copy of that book from us here at the ministry, and when you're online, also look for the free download we have for you. A little article that is chock-full of insights that's called When a Loved One Says I'm Gay.

You'll find these and other helpful resources at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: Rob, pro-LGBT activists believe we should allow, enable, empower young children to make decisions about their identity, their biology, even to get medical help. Some states are aggressively blocking parental control of those decisions.

Rob Jackson: That's right.

Jim Daly: And even excluding or prohibiting schools from engaging a parent so they can whisk a child off to get gender change. I mean, it it's like they can't get a tattoo. They can't get an aspirin without parental approval. But they can go change their gender.

Rob Jackson: Right.

Jim Daly: It's ludicrous.

Rob Jackson: It is.

Jim Daly: And the damage being done You know, many people may not realize this, but in the UK, for example, they had a hospital there called Tavistock. It was geared toward minor gender change, hormone treatment, surgeries, etc. They had over a thousand lawsuits and eventually shut it down. Sweden, Finland, all the countries we think are so progressive likewise looked at the science and said we're doing more harm than good.

Rob Jackson: That's right.

Jim Daly: And basically they still do small trials now, but basically shut down their aggressive trans engagement in terms of medical intervention.

Rob Jackson: Yeah.

Jim Daly: The US because it's so political has lagged state by state when it comes to getting control of this so that miners are not harmed.

Rob Jackson: Yeah.

Jim Daly: I mean, you can't get a tattoo until you're 18.

Rob Jackson: Right.

Jim Daly: But they can remove your genitalia. I mean, it's ridiculous.

Rob Jackson: It is.

Jim Daly: In that context, sorry, there's energy around that because I've met the detransitioners. Chloe Cole being one. She was in our film Truth Rising.

Rob Jackson: Chloe.

Jim Daly: She was 13-14. She got onto the internet, social media. She began to identify with the trans community. She found acceptance, she said. She felt loved. This is a big part of it. But here's the point, and you can speak to the whole thing. She then in school saw a woman breastfeeding in a film, I think, about being a mother. I don't recall exactly what took place, but what is true is she saw a woman breastfeeding for the first time. She had already had a double mastectomy. They were already giving her hormone treatment. At 14-15, she's now 16 or 17.

Rob Jackson: Yeah.

Jim Daly: And like a bullet between the eyes, she went boom. I said, What have I done to my body?

Rob Jackson: Yeah.

Jim Daly: She grew up in that moment. She matured. She knew what she was. She said, All of a sudden I realized I am a woman. But look at the damage I've done. And I would say look at the damage those doctors, psychologists, all of whom said to the parents, You'll have a dead daughter or a live trans son. You choose. And to Chloe's credit, she does not hold her parents accountable cuz she said it was like they had a gun to their head. What were they going to do? And now I'm in trouble the rest of my life.

I got to deal with this. There's a story. What do we do?

Rob Jackson: It's a big story. And Jim, we're going to see more and more and more of this. And there's going to have to be more help for those who are detransitioning and even families

Jim Daly: There are thousands of them.

Rob Jackson: thousands and even families who are going to need to be reunified and reintegrated, you know, with hope and help. And even when someone says, you know, I made a mistake, that's not necessarily the moment they say and I also love Jesus.

Jim Daly: Right.

Rob Jackson: It's a process. Right. That's another long game to be played, a long road to be walked. But it is so crucial that we understand how devastating it is. And you know, I I reflect on Oswald Chambers. He said that sin is wild and irrational.

Jim Daly: Right. Yeah. Mhm.

Rob Jackson: It's wild and irrational that states would allow miners to do such things when your point is they can't get a tattoo, they can't get a driver's license. There's any number of things they can't do until they're adults. But this, this life-altering Oh, sure.

Jim Daly: Yeah. And it's so blatantly ideology. It's politicized. And that that is not good for young kids.

Rob Jackson: Absolutely. No.

Jim Daly: Yeah. And it just that's the one that as I engage LGBT leaders, I'm saying you got to back off on children. Leave children alone.

Rob Jackson: That's right.

Jim Daly: There was a survey work that was done that showed that 90% of gender-dysphoric children correct themselves. 90% will self-correct by the age of 19. Just leave them alone.

Rob Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. But here's the thing to consider. There's four stages to transitioning. And so one is social. That's where the child says, I'm this and call me that and use these pronouns, and I'm going to look this way. It's social. That can all be reversed when the child chooses to do so. The second stage would be puberty blockers for some. That's difficult. Now we're really intervening on the body. Okay. And then we get into cross-sex hormones. That's the third. And then the fourth of course would be the surgeries. So my point is when a parent says yes to stage one, We'll call you this, the child is going to expect them to say yes to stages two, three, and four or to whatever degree they choose to transition.

And so I'm just wanting parents to be very cautious. Don't affirm what God cannot bless in the life of your child.

Jim Daly: Mhm. Yeah, that's good. That's really important.

Rob Jackson: It's that simple. Simple is never easy. But just don't affirm what God can't bless as you are still learning to love your child and relate in a better way.

Jim Daly: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Rob, I'm thinking about your book title and um you we've talked about being convictional in our beliefs and not backing off from the truth. Jim, you talk about this a lot. How do we have the conversation with either a child who is now part of the LGBT community or is affirming them? You know, the very symbols in my face perhaps as a parent saying, Hey, you're so intolerant. Why don't you just love these people? How do we have those conversations?

Rob Jackson: Yeah. Well, I think it's going to be important for us to think about some basic communication skills for one. And so I'm a big fan of questions rather than making statements.

Jim Daly: Yeah, Jesus did that.

Rob Jackson: Yeah. You know, make a statement and suddenly, you know, you're presenting yourself as the expert. And you're giving them something to really react to. But it's You know, it seems to me it's this way. What do you think about that? Or I've struggled with this. I've never encountered something as difficult as what you're bringing to me. And so I want to be quick to listen and slow to speak. And I want to be here for you. I want to be asking, What's this like for you? How did you get here? Now this is not like an interrogation.

How did you get here? Tell me more. How did you get here? What was I missing along the way in your development that I just didn't see? I didn't know. Can we have that conversation?

Jim Daly: And I appreciate that. You know, even my intensity there describing that, it's my angst toward Big Pharma and the medical community. That's where that energy is coming from for me that we no longer have the the virtue, the moral clarity to look after the most vulnerable, our kids. We've got to do that. I mean, as a culture, we're in trouble. Um in addressing a few more of the challenges right at the end here surrounding LGBT ideology. Some people claim, you know, they'll be born this way. Don't confront me. This is how God made me.

Rob Jackson: Right.

Jim Daly: Will be something that's said. How does a parent step back from that and say, Well, let's do some digging on that. Let's talk about that. Where does a parent go for that kind of help?

Rob Jackson: Yeah. Well, we've got great resources, so they can always call our counseling center, you know, 800-A-FAMILY. And we're going to offer consultations to that end. We've got our website with numerous resources. But I think it's important to think, You know, there's a lot of complexity in the human being experience. And there's a lot that we don't fully understand and can't know. And this thing called original sin really complicates the story. And so you feel you were born this way. There's no evidence really scientifically to bear that out. But even if it were true, I wonder what it would be like if if you surrendered to God and worked this through.

Would you be willing to surrender to God what you can't understand? Because honestly, that's where I find myself most days. There are any number of things I don't understand, but I can surrender them. God's enough.

Jim Daly: Yeah. No, I mean, it's good. We're right at the end. I I want to get this question in because it's critical. There's a bottom-line message in your book that I picked up When Grace Meets Conviction. And it's that some parents are going to struggle. I mean, that's just the reality. And you refer to Matthew 10 and Luke 12 where Jesus describes how he came in part to bring division.

Rob Jackson: That's right.

Jim Daly: It's not going to be all lovey-dovey.

Rob Jackson: No.

Jim Daly: And we've got to realize that when people reject God and his principles, it creates division.

Rob Jackson: It does.

Jim Daly: And yes, we create division by saying we're going to follow those principles. I remember speaking at a progressive, left-leaning uh city councilman's bookstore here in town. I wrote Refocus. He invited me there. I got into it. I told him why I wrote the book, the concepts of the book. A gay activist raised his hand. There's probably 60 people at this little book signing. And this guy said, When are you Christians going to catch up to the 21st century sexual ethic? I mean, you're just archaic as you view human sexuality. And I'm smiling. He finishes. I said, You know what?

Thank you. Thank you for wanting to make me either the author or the editor of the Bible. I would love to do that. I'm not allowed to do that. I'm a follower. And you can be angry at me for following it well, for reading it and applying it to my life. But your issue is with God, not with me.

Rob Jackson: That's right.

Jim Daly: I'm a follower. And I think that's kind of the attitude we need, right?

Rob Jackson: I do, too. And you know, that's what we have to bring home. Sometimes spiritual persecution begins at home.

Jim Daly: Mhm.

Rob Jackson: And we don't really look to that in the American culture, but I've read where the Puritan parents actually anticipated having prodigal children.

Jim Daly: Mhm.

Rob Jackson: It seems like in our day we expect to have perfect children. Maybe it's a reflection because we think ourselves to be perfect. We need to hold all this very very gently looking to God and trying to be the parent to our child that God is to us.

Jim Daly: Wow, Rob, that is so good. It's wisdom. What you're saying here is wisdom. Rob has said it, John has said it, I have said it. If you need help, call us. We're here for you. I would love to see a great increase in the number of calls over these next couple of days cuz we want to help you. Don't be embarrassed. We've been at this almost 50 years now, and I think we've learned some things biblically that can really help you. And in addition to that, obviously we want to get Rob's book into your hands.

And if you can make a gift of any amount monthly or one time, we'll send it. That's our way of saying thanks for being part of the ministry. I say this from time to time. If you can't afford it, this is so critical. We're a Christian ministry. We'll get it into your hands. Just call us. Let us know you need it, and we'll trust others will cover the cost of that.

John Fuller: Yeah, and and Jim, here's the evidence that donations are transforming lives. We had a listener named Dustin who shared that Focus on the Family is the place I turn to for discipleship training. The conversations and resources have been so impactful for my journey with the Lord. And then a pastor named Greg told us Focus on the Family has continually been a helpful, wholesome, godly, reliable ministry that has helped us personally and countless others that we've ministered to.

Jim Daly: Well, that's the whole point, isn't it? When you support Focus on the Family, the impact is exponential. I can say this until my face is blue, but I hope you catch it. You know, let's do this together. Let 's change people one at a time, helping them as they need, and that eventually will change culture.

Rob Jackson: Yeah.

Jim Daly: And that's what I'm excited about. And for Dustin and Greg, man, what a great testimony.

Rob Jackson: I 'd agree. And we hope you'll join our support team with a monthly pledge if possible or a one-time gift, whatever you can afford. Everything helps. Our number is 800, the letter A in the word Family, or donate and get Rob's book When Grace Meets Conviction, Loving God and Your LGBT Child at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. By the way, at our website you're going to find the free download I've mentioned earlier When a Loved One Says I'm Gay.

Jim Daly: Rob again, thank you for your great work in this discussion and for the years of preparation and for all the great work you do on the phones as a counselor here at Focus. Thank you.

Rob Jackson: Well, Jim, thank you. One of our counselors in the department says, You know, it's incredible we get to do this. Not like we have to, but we get to.

Jim Daly: Well, it's a privilege about a load, right? You carry a good emotional load, but I appreciate that with all the counselors.

Rob Jackson: Thank you. And certainly we want to thank you for listening in as well. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I 'm John Fuller, inviting you back as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Jim Daly: Hey, Jim Daly here. If you like the Focus on the Family broadcast and haven't grown tired of this voice just yet, you'll love my Refocus podcast. Now on Refocus I take a deeper dive with a respected thinker on different aspects of culture. I ask those hard questions that maybe they don't get that often, and I don't shy away from challenging topics to help you share God's grace, truth, and love with others. So listen to Refocus with Jim Daly on your favorite streaming app today.