Focus on the Family

Voiceover: The following program is sponsored by Focus on the Family and is made possible by the heartfelt support of listeners like you.

John Fuller: This is John Fuller, and please remember to let us know how you're listening to these programs on a podcast, app, or website.

Dannah Gresh: And that's what we're doing in our culture right now. We're having a shame conversation instead of a sin conversation. We're saying the shame is what's made us unwell. God's Word says it's actually the sin that has made us unwell.

John Fuller: Well, that's an insight from Dannah Gresh, and she joins us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly to talk about the positives and some of the negatives of the purity culture. I'm John Fuller.

We're talking about some pretty adult themes here that aren't going to be appropriate for younger children. So please, we suggest you get your kids settled elsewhere before you listen.

Jim Daly: One of the most difficult conversations, although it should be talked about more, is physical intimacy and what's a biblical perspective on that. How do we train up our young people so they have a healthy view of it? We are body, soul, and spirit. And so we've got to communicate that to our kids.

It is a pull. Your teens, your twenties, there are things going on in your body that are pushing you toward physical intimacy. But of course, as Christians, we want that in the context of marriage.

The good news is God's a God of grace as well. And his love for us is healing and ever-present. And when mistakes happen, he is there for us to embrace us, to love us, and to allow us to continue to grow in him. That's what's so beautiful. So it's not about being perfect, but it is about that desire to please the Lord.

It is a great desire to enter into marriage that way. And today we're going to hit this touchy subject and talk frankly about it.

John Fuller: Yeah, and Dannah Gresh is the founder of True Girl. She's a bestselling author and has recently written a book that forms the foundation for our conversation. It's called *And the Bride Wore White*. And you can learn more about Dannah and about this really excellent resource at our website, which is focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: Dannah, welcome back to Focus on the Family. It's always good to have you.

Dannah Gresh: Oh, I'm so glad to be here with you today.

Jim Daly: It's so fun, typically. This can be a little bit of a heavy topic. And right in my mind from the get-go here, it's all the disclaimers that you've got to think about because somebody will be offended about something that's said.

Again, the spirit and the heart of the discussion is really to give people a perspective on physical intimacy, God's design for it, whether you're that teenager—and we have teens listening from time to time—and we have a lot of 20-somethings listening too that are single. So what is that right way to go?

Again, so many people will have different perspectives. We understand that. Let's get one of the things out of the way right away. And that is we have plenty of material at Focus on the Family to speak to boys about this subject as well. So I don't want you to hear, "How come they're not talking about the responsibility of boys and fathers to train their sons?"

That material is there. Just come to Focus on the Family's website. But today we're talking to Dannah about girls. And she's a girl, but you're a mom as well. So we understand all the angles. But today it's about girls.

So Dannah, hitting probably one of the biggest dominoes in this discussion is the purity movement. Some of the things that have been projected within the purity movement have been probably not as helpful, maybe more harmful.

And then there are some good things. That target is a good target. It's a biblical target to go into marriage as a virgin both for males and for females. But speak to some of that downside with that kind of legalism, if I could call it that.

Dannah Gresh: Well, yeah. Here's what's hard. The conversation about the purity conversation right now isn't doing what you just did, which is acknowledging there's good and there's bad. And we've got to be very careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And I feel like we have to understand why that's important.

So let me tell you about a letter I got. Two years ago, early spring, I got a letter in a silver envelope. I call it the silver letter because this was just a trajectory-shifting moment for me. Inside was a letter from a mom whose daughter had just become a teenager. And she had some questions for me about how to talk to her daughter about sex.

The reason she had those questions is because this mom had grown up at the apex of the purity movement. And the letter included photocopies of a newspaper article because on her wedding day, two different media sources came out to report on this couple waiting until they were married. I mean, can you think of a world in which this would happen today?

Jim Daly: Yeah, that's not newsy.

Dannah Gresh: No. And this was when Miley Cyrus had a purity ring on her finger and half of the other Disney celebrities. And so she was a part of what was celebrated about that movement.

Fast forward now. Her daughter's a teenager. She goes to the youth pastor and says, "My husband and I would like to come tell our story of waiting until we were married." And she went on in this letter to say, "We have enjoyed a beautiful marriage. We've enjoyed a beautiful sex life. We've had a really healthy impact in our community and our culture."

And so I just thought this youth pastor was going to be like, "Yes, I would love for you to share that." Instead, he informed me that that teaching, that period of time in the church, was very toxic.

Jim Daly: Huh.

Dannah Gresh: And she said, "I was dumbfounded. I was confused because good things came out of it in my life. And I'm just writing to you to say, am I going to mess my daughter up if I teach her what I learned during that time period? And do you still believe what you taught then?"

And I'm telling you, that'll stop you in your tracks to do some research. So for about two years now, I've been looking at the good and the bad. Because there's some of each.

I think I'm a part of the good fruit of the purity movement even though I was discontent with it. I was a youth leader at the time. And I looked around and I was like, I love that the church is talking about sex. That's probably the best thing that happened, right?

Jim Daly: Right.

Dannah Gresh: The church is finally talking about sex. And that was good because the people that know the creator and the designer of sex and gender should be the ones talking about it the most. Finally we are.

However, it wasn't a fully mature conversation because—people don't know this—it started by teenagers. There were 53 teenagers in a basement in Nashville that look around and they see the AIDS crisis terrifying parents, terrifying medical experts. The headlines are terrifying. And they say, "Well, what if we just did what this Bible tells us to do and we waited?"

So 53 kids sign a True Love Waits pledge. They design it. So right away your leaders probably don't have the experience to lead well because they're teenagers.

Jim Daly: They have good hearts, good intent.

Dannah Gresh: Oh, and they're going to the Word of God. One year later, 200,000 kids are in Washington D.C. signing the same pledge. This is a freight train.

Jim Daly: Yeah. A movement.

Dannah Gresh: Yeah. I think the leaders shepherded it as well as they could have considering you're dealing with teenagers and you're dealing with movement. So some people got hurt. And you used the word legalism. I think there were pockets of the purity movement where there was legalism.

And that did create a lot of hurt, a lot of pain. And we've got to acknowledge that. And we have been guilty of that, not just in how the church teaches sexual integrity, but in everything. Because rules make us feel safe. And Jesus pulls us back and says, "You're never, you're never going to obey the rules without my love."

Jim Daly: Yeah. And three core areas of life, to broaden this for just a second, my observation is and we can say it, there's many Christian leaders, pastors, that have fallen.

Dannah Gresh: Yeah.

Jim Daly: And it's typically three things, and it's right there in Scripture: pride is an issue, money, and sex. And we have to be in tune with the spirit to say, "Okay, what's your weakness? You probably have one, and then what are you going to do to build the right kind of protection so that you don't fall into that temptation?" Right?

Dannah Gresh: Right. Right.

Jim Daly: Let me put it in this way. This is I think really interesting. And I've mentioned this before, but talking to a Catholic priest, he said the image of God—Lucifer wanted that for the angels and God chose to put it into human beings, his very image. And he created us male and female.

And the plan was for the two to become one, which is the very image of God walking this earth.

Dannah Gresh: That's right.

Jim Daly: And he fights it tooth and nail. Think of how marriage has been on the ropes because of the enemy's assault on human sexuality. I mean, look at the movements that—there's so many. Sexual orientation, transgender. I mean, it is like a spiritual assault on God's design.

Dannah Gresh: It is. And it's an assault on the love of God too. So first you're referring to Genesis 1 where it says, "In the image of God he created them, male and female he created them." And then it goes on to say, "the two will become one flesh." And that one is the word *echad*. And the only other place we see that used is in the Jewish prayer, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one, *echad*."

So when they come together, they look even more uniquely like God. And one of the mind-blowing things for me that really made me say, "Okay, as a wife, as a mom, as a minister of the gospel, as a Great Commission minister of the gospel," which all of us are—this topic matters.

Because in Genesis 4:1 it says, "Adam lay with his wife Eve and she became pregnant and gave birth." And that word there is *yada*. Adam *yada* with his wife Eve. And if you grew up with *Seinfeld*, you know *yada, yada, yada*, blah, blah, blah. Turns out this word is not so boring after all, right?

Jim Daly: Right.

Dannah Gresh: This is a sacred, profound, pleasure-filled word. And I thought, wow, this is very different. The word means to know, to be known, to be deeply respected. Transcends the physical that the world gets fixated on. The world is fixated on how we connect to one another physically. And God's Word talks about how we're connecting emotionally and spiritually, knowing each other.

But here's what's mind-blowing. It's only used, that word, a handful of times to talk about a husband and a wife knowing each other. It's used predominantly about how we can know God. "Be still and know, *yada*, that I am God."

You're touching on something very sacred here, Jim. Maleness and femaleness, marriage, and sex—they're pictures. They're pictures of some of the most sacred truths that we hold dear. And the intimacy that we can have with God, marriage is just pointing to that. And if we don't rise up to protect it, then the things that we hold most dear in our faith are marginalized and erased. That's why this conversation matters so very much.

Jim Daly: Right. And why there's tension about it even in the church. Going back to that pastor, this is a toxic subject. It shouldn't be.

John Fuller: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. And our guest today is Dannah Gresh. We're talking about her book *And the Bride Wore White* and some of the big concepts in this book. You'll want to get a copy so you can do a deep dive in what Dannah has written. We've got the book at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: Dannah, let me explore with you your life. I mean, you put it in the book and you've talked about it. Your goal was to go into marriage pure. And that didn't happen. Talk to that specifically, that situation, explain it, and then speak to other women who are listening that had a similar experience. There was a desire but it was tripped up.

Dannah Gresh: Yeah, I was a Christian teenager in a Christian high school in a Christian home in a Christian youth group. I was actively involved in teaching Sunday school in my church. I loved Jesus.

Jim Daly: Doing all the right things.

Dannah Gresh: I loved the Lord. And I heard the "thou shalt not" speeches, which is what we had really before the purity conversation. It got more robust after the purity conversation sort of started, which was good. It was more than just "thou shalt not." It was just the rules when I was a teenager.

Jim Daly: Right.

Dannah Gresh: And so I never went through the process of thinking through why I believed these rules were good. And I got in a Christian dating relationship like many of us and many people still today and hadn't made any decisions. I hadn't been decisive about what I believed and why I believed it.

And so I ended up giving the gift I desperately wanted to give to my husband on my wedding night, I gave it away to—I was 15. I was a baby. I look back and I see 15-year-olds today and I'm like, oh.

Jim Daly: Did you feel that way at that age? Like, this is a gift? Because that sounds very adult to think of it in that way.

Dannah Gresh: That's the thing. I didn't.

Jim Daly: Right. So in that context, for younger girls listening right now or moms that are going to have a chat tonight, looking at your younger self, what conversation would have helped you? What would be the tone and the substance of that at 15 that would have maybe steered you a little differently?

Dannah Gresh: Well, even when I was 9, 10, 11, 12, setting the stage of how sacred this is, being very clear about why, that it's a picture of the gospel. There's no junior salvation, there's no junior Christian, there's no junior Great Commission, there's no junior Holy Spirit. There's you're a believer or you're not. Of course we talk to 9-year-olds differently than we talk to 19-year-olds or 29-year-olds.

Jim Daly: Right. Maturity levels are different.

Dannah Gresh: The maturity levels are different. But I really believe it's important that we have these mature conversations because otherwise the world is disciplining our children what they will believe on the topic of sex and gender. And our silence becomes a megaphone for that instruction. So I think just starting early period would have been important.

But I think one of the things that I really fought to keep in this rewrite of *And the Bride Wore White* is being decisive. Every single one of us in life, there's research on this. We decide or we slide into behavior. There's really no middle ground.

If we have decided on January 1st, "I'm going to eat healthier this year," and we write it down and we set some goals, the chances are we're going to have a better shot at it. But if you're midway through the year and you're eating all the carbs and all the sweets like normal, it may be because you didn't pause and make a decision.

The same is true of our sexual appetites. And there's long-term research that says people that in their teen years said, "This is the kind of person I'd like to marry. These are some things I'd like to achieve so that I'm emotionally and maturity-wise ready before I start dating," those people long-term, 20, 30 years down the road, they're in much healthier relationships versus people who just don't think about it, which I just didn't think about it. And I ended up being sexually active and it wasn't what I wanted. But I slid into it.

Jim Daly: Right. Right. And from there, at 15, that is young.

Dannah Gresh: That is very young.

Jim Daly: Then you have shame and guilt and fear and "What have I done?" And now even at that young age, now you're trying to negotiate with God, "I'm so sorry for what I did." So you feel that shame and guilt and then you're trying to still be on the outside, living a life that looks good and healthy. Your mom and dad going, "Oh, isn't she doing well?" And now you have this secret. How did you manage that?

Dannah Gresh: Well, that wasn't quite how my story looked. My story looked like my mom and dad going, "What happened to her? Why is she different?"

Jim Daly: Because you changed.

Dannah Gresh: I became depressed. I became more withdrawn. And that is one of the things we see in teenage girls who are sexually active, that there is often a change in their mental and emotional wellness.

Jim Daly: Let me ask you before you keep going there. Just that physiological, emotional, mental response should say something about what's going on in the heart. The fact that that would be there. The naysayers, probably those that are anti-God, are going to say, "That's because of the shame you put on people." But there certainly would be a part of that. But there's something deeper going on.

Dannah Gresh: I felt shame. And let's pause on that word because that's one of those words that's become very twisted that Satan has used. Shame invites us to say, "I did something wrong," not "I am something wrong," but "I chose something that wasn't in my best interest or the best interest of my community."

And is there forgiveness for that? Jesus says yes. And then the Word says in James 5:16, "confess your sins one to another and then you will be healed." It doesn't say confess your shame one to another.

And that's what we're doing in our culture right now. We're having a shame conversation instead of a sin conversation. We're saying the shame is what's made us unwell. God's Word says it's actually the sin that has made us unwell. And when I confess my sin to you and you say—there's great sociological research on this—and you say, "That was wrong, but I still love you," that's what crushes shame.

Jim Daly: Which again is a mirror of God's treatment toward us. That's what he is in us. And when we do that to each other, it's a taste of God's character. It's all connected, which is amazing.

Something I want to make sure that we're clear on is many times women are in a situation of abuse. That could be emotional, it can be physical. It could be a boyfriend or a husband. And we need to recognize that abusive situations are absolutely wrong and you need to find safety.

You need to get to a place, especially if you have children in the home as well, but you need to get out of that situation and seek help.

Dannah Gresh: Absolutely. I've been sounding this alarm since the year 2000. Tell someone when you don't feel safe, when you feel guilty, when you feel shame, when you're confused, tell someone.

A lot of times the confusion is God telling you this isn't a safe relationship. And you don't really even know it until years down the road, until you can kind of get some separation from it, or at least months down the road. So if you're feeling that way, tell someone today. Don't wait. Text someone right now.

Jim Daly: Yeah. And to your point, it'll feel like, "Am I really experiencing this?" Some women are going to know because it's that obvious. But others, you're in a gray zone emotionally and you're not sure. Ask and talk to somebody.

You can call us here at Focus on the Family and we're available to help you through that decision tree of where you're at. But it is critical. And with that, as you said, that shame and that guilt can keep you trapped in there like, "Was it my fault?" Such a common thing for a woman to say to herself, "Did I cause this?" How do you coach a woman to manage that kind of false guilt?

Dannah Gresh: Well, first a look her in the eye and I simply say, "It was not your fault." For someone who hasn't been in an abusive situation, they can't understand how much those words need to be heard.

But then I think the shame that comes along with that follows the same path of, "I need to tell you what happened to me." And I hear what happened to you. And I say, "It wasn't your fault and I still love you."

And the shame really doesn't have a lot of power when you start to enter into—there's research that men or women on the battlefield that come off the battlefield and in the first few days they say, "This is what I saw. This is what I experienced." They say it out loud.

They get the empathic witness, that person that says, "That had to be horrible. I'm so sorry that happened to you. You're going to be okay." There's power in that. That's why God's Word tells us Christianity is not a solo sport. It's a communal activity whereby we are the hands and the feet, the voice of Jesus Christ to one another.

Jim Daly: Dannah, I don't want to end with a pit in my stomach. I want to give hope. And we're going to come back for day two and keep this conversation going if you're willing.

I just want to give that hope here, that pearl of hope to the woman listening, no matter how old she is. She could be 16, 15, she could be 25, 35, 55. But she's carried that guilt like, "It was my fault."

Speak to that bondage, what the enemy is trying to do, what the world is trying to do to free you from those spiritual binds that you don't need to be accountable to God. The culture is screaming that. "Just be yourself. You're in control of your own body," even to the point of killing that child that has been created.

Speak to that in terms of how do you turn all that devastation—like John 10:10 says, "The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy." Women are under the microscope in this regard. The enemy is having a heyday with women. Now we got to say, where are the men? But speak to that woman with that heavy burden. How does she set herself free?

Dannah Gresh: Well, I walked in shame for about 10 years. Of course in my case, it wasn't something that was done to me. It was my choice to be sexually active. But I think the pathway is very similar in terms of crushing that shame and receiving the grace of Jesus. It's going to him and saying what is true.

"What is true? I'm confused here. I felt shame for 10 years. For 10 years I've awakened and said, 'Lord, am I really forgiven? If I'm forgiven, why do I feel this way?'" It was faulty thinking in my heart because I was believing lies.

Jesus said you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. So I had to say, "Lord, what's the truth about the word virgin? Because it's a word that hurts me when I hear it. What's the truth about the word purity? Because I hear it and all I think is I am not."

He took me through a gentle process of looking those words in the eye and they were not more powerful than his love. So go to him. Go to him first. Please don't go to TikTok. They're not going to tell you the truth about these words.

Jim Daly: Reddit.

Dannah Gresh: Please don't go to Reddit. They are not going to tell you the truth about these words. They are going to tell you the hold these words—they are going to tell you these words are trauma for you and they always will be.

Here's what I've learned about trauma. It's real. I've felt it. I've known it in my life. I have experienced the physiological symptoms of trauma. The sleeplessness, all of it. And yes, trauma is real and it hurts. But also, I have decided that my triggers are an invitation from the Holy Spirit to be healed.

Jim Daly: Working through that kind of hurt can be so hard. But we don't want anyone to have to do it alone. God creates us for relationship, perhaps especially for those low times.

Our team of caring Christian counselors is available to pray with you and give you biblical insight into some first steps to healing with a free initial consultation. So sign up on our website and take advantage of that. We want you to.

I'd recommend you get a copy of Dannah's book, *And the Bride Wore White: Seven Truths to Live in Sexual Integrity No Matter Your Past*. She shares hope, wisdom, and courage for every woman who desires sexual wholeness. We have copies for you here at Focus on the Family. When you make a monthly pledge of any amount, we'll send you a copy as our way of thanking you for your support.

When you donate to Focus, you partner with us in reaching out to people who need help—spiritual help. One listener told us, "I have struggled with sexual immorality and I had to lean on the Lord to be set free from it. I had an attack of temptation recently and I was in a dark place. But I happened to have the Focus on the Family app on my phone and the Holy Spirit was leading me to listen. It helped me gain victory that day. I thank God for Focus on the Family. It was right on time."

We need your continued financial support to be right on time and provide that kind of help to hurting people. If a monthly gift doesn't work for you today, we will send you a copy of the book for a one-time gift as well. So be part of what God is doing here at Focus on the Family.

John Fuller: Donate today and get your copy of Dannah Gresh's book when you call 800-A-FAMILY or we've got the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Voiceover: Is your marriage struggling? Communication breaking down? Trust fading? Conflict that never seems to resolve? There's still hope.

Hope Restored Marriage Intensives by Focus on the Family help couples step away from daily life and focus fully on rebuilding their relationship. And right now, through the Marriage Investment Initiative, Hope Restored is investing $1,000 toward marriage intensives. Visit hoperestored.com/invest.