Focus on the Family

Guest (Male): Hey parents, for almost 40 years, Adventures in Odyssey has been helping kids like yours form relationships with Christ. Now the animated Adventures in Odyssey film, Journey into the Impossible, will reach a new generation of families.

But we need your help to finish the film and launch it in theaters. Your gift will be matched dollar for dollar before May 1st. See the trailer and donate today at focusonthefamily.com/impossible. That's focusonthefamily.com/impossible.

Guest (Female): The following program is sponsored by Focus on the Family and is supported by the prayers and financial gifts of wonderful friends like you.

John Fuller: This is John Fuller, and please remember to let us know how you're listening to these programs on a podcast, app, or website.

Becky Harling: In one of the Proverbs, Solomon says that a person's heart is a deep well, and you're wise if you draw that out. Most of us want to be able to express what we're feeling, be able to figure out what we're feeling, and be able to figure out the answer to our own problems. As you're drawing them out and they're processing, they will come up with the solution, and then it gives you an opportunity to affirm like, "Hey, that's a great way to solve this."

John Fuller: That's Becky Harling, and she joins us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, we spend a lot of time talking, don't we? This is a talk show. So we spend a lot of time talking, but sometimes we don't spend enough time listening. I don't know about you, John, whether that is a struggle for you.

John Fuller: I learned long ago that listening is a habit you can cultivate.

Jim Daly: You strike me as a good listener. Honestly, I think I tend to finish sentences.

John Fuller: You weren't in my home last night, were you? I'm waiting for you to finish my sentence.

Jim Daly: This is one of the things I've really been working on with Jean because it is understandably super irritating to her. She'll be looking for that word and I'll jump in. "Antagonistic? Supportive?" She's going, "No, would you like to keep trying?" She's being very patient.

But there's something in my mechanism. I think it's a compliment if I'm engaging you that way. I can help you finish your sentences. She doesn't think it's much of a compliment.

John Fuller: I have a wife similar to that, Jim, which is why it's good that we're talking about it.

Jim Daly: There's probably some gender reality to that. Men typically are not great listeners. It doesn't mean we cannot be. So today's program is going to certainly equip you. For the women who tend to be good listeners, maybe reinforcing some of that or improving on that skill set. Or better yet, just as a couple having some discussion about it. "How can I communicate more effectively with you?" is probably a good start. So we're going to talk about that today with Becky Harling.

John Fuller: The implications are for everyone because we all have conversations. It's not just married couples. It's everywhere you go. You can be a better listener. Becky Harling is a speaker, author, and mom. She would probably tell you that grandmother is one of her best titles and roles.

She's written a number of books, including the one that forms the foundation for today's conversation, *How to Listen So People Will Talk: Build Stronger Communication and Deeper Connections*. You can learn more about Becky and this book at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: Becky, welcome to Focus.

Becky Harling: Thanks, Jim. It's great to be back with both you and John.

Jim Daly: It's so fun. If most of us were to take a self-assessment, this is one of those areas of life that we probably tend to score ourselves higher than we actually are. Like, "Are you a good listener?" Let me ask you that question. What do you think? And you say, "Yeah, I think generally I am." Then you ask somebody close to you, maybe a spouse or an adult child or a teen child, and they might say something like, "Yeah, I don't think you're a very good listener." What are some honest signs that we might not be listening as well as we think we are?

Becky Harling: I think it's a really good question to ask those that are closest to you. I asked our adult daughter that—she was a young adult at the time—and I really thought I was going to get rave reviews. I'm good, I've written a book about it. You should never ask your kids a question unless you really want an honest answer.

I stood back waiting for her accolades, and instead, she's like, "Well, sometimes you're a good listener, but you interrupt me a lot. You seem distracted a lot. You finish my sentences, and you try to fix things." I remember thinking, "Aren't I supposed to fix things? I mean, I'm a mom, right? That's what we do."

It seemed reasonable. I just remember laying in bed later that night praying that the Lord would change me and kind of wrestling it out with the Lord. Like, "I thought I was good at this. I'm always home after school when they're there." But it doesn't mean you're listening.

Jim Daly: That's so true. You say listening is like a muscle that needs to be trained. That sounds so fatiguing already. Really? It's one more thing I've got to go to the gym for now? Well, that's true, but you've got to go to the listening gym. What does it mean to train your listening skills? What does that look like so I go from this to that? Describe that.

Becky Harling: You have to be intentional. You have to go into a space where you're saying to yourself, "Okay, everything that's on my mind right now, I'm going to put in like a box or a locker or a folder so that I can focus on the other person."

I think this is really good in marriage. You sit down at the dinner table and you've had maybe a long day. You've got a million things on your mind, and your spouse also has a million things on his or her mind. So learning to just kind of quietly pray, "Help me to put the things that are on my mind aside so that I can be intentional in hearing what Steve has to say," really listening and seeking to understand him. Because I think that's where the work begins.

Jim Daly: You've got to be thoughtful about doing it. That's the thing. I think for an extrovert, maybe we could break it into that kind of design. Extroverts, we flap our mouths a lot. It's fun for us. We want to talk. We want to be at the party. "Hey, what are you doing? Did you know last week this happened?"

Then you have the introverts that are thoughtful people that usually don't finish other people's sentences. They're really trying to listen to you. I've noticed that pattern with people. How do we look at it from that perspective of if you just like to talk, you really are going to have to work that muscle out to get it into a place where you refrain from talking?

Becky Harling: You really do. I think sometimes the problem with those of us that are extroverts is we like to be the center of attention. We go to a party and we want people to engage with us, or we want to be the center of attention. When you're seeking after being the center of attention, you're not really listening to the other person.

There are two types of people, it's been said before. One comes into the room and says, "There you are," and another comes into the room and says, "Here I am." I think we have to look at that and say, "What are my expectations as I'm entering this room?" Because bringing it back to Jesus, Jesus was an amazing listener.

Jim Daly: I'm thinking of that Scripture that out of the heart your tongue speaks. So these are really spiritual principles beyond the words that are being expressed. So even coming into the room like that, that's a spiritual observation about how we see the world, how we see us, ourselves in the world, and how I see you in the world. That's another level to go to in terms of estimating your listening skills. It's a spiritual issue before it's anything else.

Becky Harling: It is. Jesus said, "Be careful how you listen." He also instructed us that we're to love one another. It was David Augsburger who said, "To feel heard is so close to feeling loved that for most, the two are indistinguishable." So that means if my kids don't feel heard, they're not going to feel loved. If my spouse doesn't feel heard, he's not going to feel loved. If my friends don't feel heard, they're not going to feel loved. That kind of raises the ante on this.

Jim Daly: Okay, here's the golden question. We're not halfway yet into our discussion, but what's one thing that somebody could do to begin to move in that direction to shift their listening skills to be more fully present? Just give me one thing right at this point.

Becky Harling: Put your phone away. That's a start. We're so distracted. So put your phone away. I can give you like five steps to start. Put your phone away, lean into the person who's talking, nod your head when it's appropriate or smile to keep them, learn to use the phrase "tell me more" if you don't understand. All of those are good practices.

Jim Daly: One of the things you mention in the book is self-awareness. That seems right about just about any kind of situation. Self-awareness is a good thing. Some people don't have it. It's like the people that get off an airplane and stand right in the gangway. I cannot figure that out.

They're coming off the ramp, off the plane, and they need to know where to go. That's fair, but they stop right in the doorway, and like 140 other people are waiting for them to figure out what direction they need to go. I'm going, "Self-awareness just isn't there." But we do kind of that in listening to others too, right? We just clog up the gangway.

Becky Harling: We need to learn about self-awareness. It's a topic that I don't feel like the church has often taught about because we're so concerned about not being self-obsessed. But to be self-aware means you're aware of how you're coming across.

So you've got to raise that, and the only way to raise that really is to ask people close to you and see how you're coming across.

Jim Daly: You had a friend that had kind of missed an emotional moment, and you mention this story in the book. What happened as an illustration for all of us? What was going on with her where she just missed the moment and didn't understand the gravity of the situation?

Becky Harling: I was at a conference and I was having coffee with a friend who had just been diagnosed with breast cancer. I am a breast cancer survivor, so I had a lot of empathy for her and was asking her how she was doing and what the treatment plan for her was going to be.

We were having this really deep, intimate conversation, and another friend walked up to the table and just word vomited all over us. She was kind of like all spastic and going on and on about her interviews at the conference and what was happening. She was talking 90 miles an hour. At the end, I just said, "Well, I hope it goes well for you." She walked away and it was like, "Oh wow."

But I think we've all done that from time to time. She just missed the moment. She didn't read the room. We have to learn to read a situation when we enter. If two people are involved in a really quiet, deep, thoughtful conversation, you don't want to come in like a piece of dynamite sharing your story. You want to listen.

Jim Daly: How does somebody develop that ability? Somebody hearing us or watching might say, "Yeah, if I give myself an honest assessment, I've done that a few times where I've missed it." So what do you do to get better at reading the room? What does that mean to the person who struggles to read the room? How do you get them to a better place?

Becky Harling: That's a great question, Jim. I think first and foremost you pray, and you become a fast confessor. When you realize you didn't read the room well, you say, "Lord, forgive me. I didn't observe that well."

So help me to show up differently. I think learning to ask yourself the question in every relationship, in every room that you walk into, "How do I want to show up in this room?" I want to show up like Jesus. A lot of times I fall short of that, but I have to remind myself and ask myself, "How do I want to show up? How do I want to show up in my marriage? How do I want to show up in my friendships with my kids?"

Jim Daly: Becky, you had a great story about honoring someone during a trip to Nigeria with your husband. What happened there?

Becky Harling: That trip was life-changing for both of us for starters. My husband was raised in Nigeria. He's a missionary kid. He had grown up being put in boarding school. So when we got back to the boarding school, I remember him just doubling over and sobbing because it was so traumatic.

I had rarely seen my husband cry, let alone sob. He's a very strong leader. The boarding school had set up all these appointments for him, and I just kind of said, "You know, he's going to need time to just go back and see what God has here."

Later that night, we were sitting outside the little cabin they gave us, and we were drinking coffee and there were mosquitoes all around. Steve just started to talk about what it was like as a kid being dropped off at boarding school, not seeing his parents for sometimes six weeks at a time, wondering where God was in all of that.

During that time as we were sitting there and I'm listening to him, I just felt like the Holy Spirit said to me, "Becky, this is a holy moment. Just listen to Steve and let him get it all out." It still brings tears to my eyes because I had seen my husband and he is—he's a very strong leader. He speaks all over the place and leads organizations and all of that.

But here I got a glimpse of the little blond-haired boy that had felt abandoned because of ministry and wondered, "Where is God in all of this?" That was a huge moment in our marriage because it really took us to a deeper place of understanding each other. It was a huge moment for him as far as the healing God wanted to do in his life. Really, all I did was ask questions and sit and listen.

John Fuller: This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and our guest today is Becky Harling. We're covering some of the content in her book, *How to Listen So People Will Talk: Build Stronger Communication and Deeper Connections*. We've got the book here at the ministry. Just stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: Becky, let me ask you this. There are so many circumstances where this fits: a married couple, a teen or adult child with his or her parent, good friends. What I'm setting up is this difficulty where—and even we express this in gender terms—men tend to listen to somebody who's got an issue. They've got a problem. It could be their spouse or any of the configurations I just named.

We're sitting there, we're listening to provide you a way out. That's our whole mission here. "Okay, so you had a problem with your girlfriend and you sat down and had coffee and she said this and you said that. You know what? Maybe next time you're together you might want to try saying this."

Then your spouse is going, "That's not why I told you this story. I don't need your advice on how to do that." On the two sides of those equations, how do those that are trying to be the problem solvers take a deep breath and say, "Okay, I'm not here to fix something"? That's a tough one for me.

Becky Harling: I think men and women struggle with that. So be assured, be validated that we all struggle with that. We want to fix somebody else's problems. But the truth is, people don't want us to fix their problems because that really makes them an idiot.

I mean, if you can solve my problem in a minute and I haven't figured out how to solve it, that makes me an idiot, right? I've never thought about it that way. It's horrible, but I never had. I just think, you know, you've got three people thinking about the problem. Maybe one of you will come up with a good idea to solve it.

I mean, that's a more simplistic way of looking at it. That's my approach. I never thought about it that it would be demeaning to you that you haven't found the answer. That may be part of my problem right there.

So I think one way to change that is to put your focus on understanding the problem more deeply, not on finding the solution to the problem. So let's say Jean opens up to you and she's had a rough day with a client or a rough day in the grocery store or whatever.

Instead of saying, "Well, next time you should"—first of all, drop the word "should" because that's not really helping anyone. But then ask her to describe the situation more and ask questions like, "How did that make you feel? What do you think of that? What is God saying to you in that?" Just kind of ask questions. Be curious. Learning to be curious is huge.

John Fuller: You mentioned Jesus earlier and He did ask insightful questions. I have a friend who kind of went through and did a Bible study on the questions Jesus asked. It feels like there are conversations where the person is not going to be receptive to my fixing.

My wife spent about two hours listening to one of our children, and she didn't do the mom thing that you mentioned earlier. She said nothing. She really just asked questions and listened. Sometimes the situation doesn't call for a response, just that question you asked earlier, "Tell me more." Why is that so significant to the person that's talking when we ask questions?

Becky Harling: It goes back to the book of Proverbs where, in one of the Proverbs, Solomon says that a person's heart is a deep well and you're wise if you draw that out. Most of us want to be able to express what we're feeling, be able to figure out what we're feeling, and be able to figure out the answer to our own problems.

As you're drawing them out and they're processing verbally or internally, they will come up with the solution. Then it gives you an opportunity to affirm like, "Hey, that's a great way to solve this," rather than you coming in as the knight in shining armor or the hero to solve it.

Jim Daly: Jean is an excellent listener. That's something I've observed, but she's learned how to do that well. You mention in the book the 5 Bs of availability: Be reliable, be intentional, be prepared, be flexible, and be alert to divine appointments.

So let's talk about those. Be reliable. What does that look like?

Becky Harling: Being reliable is so important. In the context of listening, it's really understanding that you are being given a gift with another person's story. So you want to treasure that. You don't want to share what's not yours to share. So you want to hold confidences and you want to be a reliable friend or a reliable spouse who's going to hear and treasure that story.

Jim Daly: You also in this area of being flexible, again one of the 5 Bs of availability, be flexible. You had a neighbor, Clarice, that taught you a lot about flexibility. What was that?

Becky Harling: She did. Every morning I would go out for a walk—we were living in Denver at the time—and I would say hi to her and she never answered. So I thought, well, maybe she just doesn't want to be friends.

Then one evening I went out for a walk and she said, "Oh hi, Becky, come for a walk with me." So we walked and she poured out her whole story to me, and so I had a delightful time with her. The next morning when I said hi, again she didn't answer.

But then I realized she had earphones in. She was listening to something. It wasn't that she didn't want to be a friend. Then before we left that house, before we moved from that house, I remember her knocking on my car door window. We were just about to pull out, and she just said, "Becky, you've been such a good neighbor." I remember thinking, "I don't think I've been a good neighbor." But she thought I had because I had taken time to listen to her.

Jim Daly: That actually folds in nicely to the last of the 5 Bs, and that's be alert to divine appointments. That kind of illustrates that. But get more specific and maybe another illustration from the book where being prepared for those divine appointments, what does that look like?

Becky Harling: Often times those divine appointments happen on planes. As people who travel, we are often in a hurry. I mean, one great tip for listening better is to let go of your hurry.

But I remember that our daughter was traveling home from college. She had just finished finals. She didn't feel like talking to anybody because she just wanted to veg out with a magazine. A young woman came and sat by her and really wanted to engage her in conversation.

In the course of the conversation, Carrie asked this young woman, "What do you do?" and she said, "I'm an actress." Carrie has taught musical theater for years, so she said, "Oh, what kind of acting do you do?" Well, it turns out the woman was in the adult industry.

Carrie said, "Well, how does that make you feel?" This woman began to pour out her heart about how it didn't make her feel good, but she had given it all away because God didn't protect her in one situation.

Carrie said to her, "What would it look like for you to come back to God?" and she said, "I don't think He'd want me." Carrie grabbed her hand—and they were both crying at this point—and Carrie said, "You know, God loves you so much. He wants you back and He wants to take away that shame."

She prayed with this young woman whose name was Jessica before the plane landed. As a family, we continued to pray for Jessica. A couple years later, we heard from Jessica that she was out of the industry, that God had redeemed her life, and that she was now traveling and speaking about, "Why wait?"

But she said something interesting in that conversation. She said God had positioned so many people near her in airplanes who kept directing her back to Jesus that she finally thought, "I better listen to this."

Jim Daly: That's a reminder of being prepared and ready. I think so many people that we talk to, Becky, that have been at the microphone here with us talking about how to reach people, how to do better at being present so the Lord can use you. What a great example.

I think that pain and that hurt is all around us. It's just we're going so fast to your point, we don't stop to notice it or we don't take time to say, "I can see you're carrying a heavy burden." I mean, some of these things are simple to do, but it takes and requires your engagement.

I want to be very specific with how much of that I give away, which I think is not where the Lord's heart is at. He's saying like, "Be ready, be My kingdom right now, bring My kingdom to those around you, be present and give to those around you, ask the right questions."

Let me turn to the listener. Here at Focus on the Family, we want to be here for you. We have so many good things for you. We have a counseling team that can help you. You just call us and John will give those details in a minute, and we'll schedule a time for a counselor to call you back.

We have just amazing resources for you in every area of your life right now, whether it's marriage or parenting or whatever it might be. We've got resources here to help you, including Becky's great book, *How to Listen So People Will Talk: Build Stronger Communication and Deeper Connections*.

Make a gift of any amount to Focus on the Family and we'll send it as our way—send the book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. $5, $10 and you get a great resource to learn how to be a better communicator, a better listener.

In fact, Becky, you have a story that I was aware of about an NBA player that had a little situation going and he later let you know what happened. Describe that story.

Becky Harling: It's a crazy story. After the book came out, *How to Listen So People Will Talk* was on the Choice Books racks in the airports. This NBA player—and for the life of me, I cannot remember his name, Jim—but he had gotten in trouble in that game because he was yelled at by the coach for not listening and not following through on what the coach had asked him to do.

It became this big storm on TV. Everybody knew the guy hadn't listened. He was mad, and he was walking through the airport and he sees my book and he holds it up and he points to it and he's like, "Clearly I needed this book." It kind of went viral on Instagram!

Jim Daly: That's so good. But I guess it proves the point, right? At least he had the ability to say, "I've made a mistake. I need to listen better." That's what we're talking about. If you feel like you're that guy or that lady, man, get a hold of this book. You can do that directly through Focus. Make a gift of any amount and we'll send it as our way of saying thank you for being engaged with us in ministry, and you're getting a great resource that even an NBA player uses.

John Fuller: And our number is 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. 800-232-6459. We've got all the details at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

By the way, this reminder as we kind of turn the corner—it's hard to believe that spring break is coming up quick. If you haven't done so yet, plan to swing by Colorado Springs and see us. We have a terrific campus. We'd love to have you enjoy some time in Whit's End Soda Shop, visit our bookstore, take a tour to learn more about the ministry.

We see about a quarter of a million people a year. We'd love to see you this spring break or maybe if you're doing long-term planning this summer. On behalf of the team, thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.