Focus on the Family

John Fuller: Welcome to Focus on the Family's weekend broadcast. We hope the following program will challenge you and encourage you in your faith journey.

Dino Petrone: It’s just another opportunity to understand dynamics of how to—okay, we have a marriage scenario and now we have another project scenario. How do we show respect, how do we interact, and how do we engage in these types of new problems?

So for us, it was really great because it allowed me to say, "Hey, I do care about the paint color in this scenario because it's important to you," right? And that's how we should be in marriage. Things that are important to you should be important to me, and I shouldn't just poopoo them and throw them to the side.

John Fuller: Well, that’s Dino Petrone describing how marriage is a little like remodeling your home. We're going to hear more about that comparison today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, and thanks for joining us.

Jim Daly: John, I don’t think I’ve ever considered how to apply interior design techniques to my daily life, my marriage, my family. But I remember Jean and I, we were remodeling—I think it’s the only big remodel we ever did.

John Fuller: And with good reason, right? It's a big deal.

Jim Daly: Yes, but it was a lot more like the Money Pit than anything else. Everything we touched broke. I'm looking forward to today's conversation because there is such an analogy between that remodel and what you're doing with your home and what you're doing in your spiritual life, your marriage, and everything else. I'm looking forward to it.

John Fuller: I am too. We have Ashley and Dino Petrone with us today. Dino's a software engineer, and Ashley is an interior designer. They have four children and a podcast, there's a website—there's a lot here that the Petrones do. The podcast and book are called *Designed to Last: Our Journey of Building an Intentional Home, Growing in Faith, and Finding Joy in the In-Between*. This is a terrific book and we're going to encourage you to get a copy from us here at the ministry. The link is at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: Dino and Ashley, welcome to Focus on the Family.

Ashley Petrone: Thank you so much for having us.

Dino Petrone: Thanks for having us.

Jim Daly: So interior design and focusing on your family—how do these things connect other than a big fight?

Ashley Petrone: That’s exactly about how it started.

Dino Petrone: It was not natural at first in terms of Ash’s skill set and how her and I functioned together in that area.

Jim Daly: Describe her skill set right before her eyes. Why don’t we do this? This is marriage counsel now.

Dino Petrone: I’ll tell you all the things that you’re good at.

Ashley Petrone: Okay, I’ll just sit here.

Dino Petrone: No, so when we first got married, Ash obviously had an amazing skill set in creative design. It was less a skill set and it was more of a hunger and a desire to be into that space. It was really cool because I did not know that was necessarily something that was going to be an active part of our marriage, but here we are eighteen years later.

Jim Daly: Well, let’s do this, Ashley. Let’s go back a little bit and talk about how you guys met and what was going on and how this amazing couple took root.

Ashley Petrone: So we actually were set up by our moms.

Jim Daly: That’s always a good first start.

Ashley Petrone: Oh, they love it and they love to tell that story to everybody.

Dino Petrone: They’re very proud, I’m sure.

Ashley Petrone: For sure. So, we have a four-year age gap. When my family lived in Washington state, his family also lived in Washington state for a few years, and our moms and our parents became friends—best friends.

Years later, they decided, "Hey, why don’t we set Dino and Ashley up?" Dino doesn’t have a girlfriend. I was actually dating somebody at the time for a few years and it wasn’t going very well. So, we were like, "Why not? Let’s just drive out to Vegas where his parents lived at the time and let’s see if we can set the kids up."

Jim Daly: I thought that was going to go different way. "Let’s drive out to Vegas and tie the knot at the Elvis Presley chapel" or something.

Ashley Petrone: You never know. We probably would have done it. We were not too far off. We were actually engaged four weeks after that first set-up.

Jim Daly: But you had known each other a long time.

Ashley Petrone: Our parents had, but each other we had not.

Dino Petrone: Oh, okay. We knew each other’s family.

Jim Daly: So how long did you date before you were saying, "Hey, maybe this is a permanent thing"?

Ashley Petrone: No, so that weekend we hung out, I broke up with my boyfriend over the phone. I realized at that point, too, it wasn’t just about Dino. It was about—okay, I was searching for something, I was looking for something, and I realized, "Whoa, I could find a believer, somebody that loves the Lord, and he’s cute." Who would have thought? I didn’t know it was possible. I was just settling at the time and I realized that. So, after I broke up with my boyfriend, we just clicked. Over that weekend, we were in.

Jim Daly: You did describe this first ten and a half months, I think if I read that correctly in the book, as just about every day crying.

Ashley Petrone: Ten and a half months of crying, yes. Well, this was the first time—so after we got married, it was ten and a half months we lived in Las Vegas together. It was the first time I had left family. It was the ultimate leave and cleave, for sure. So, it was probably one of the best things we’ve done.

Dino Petrone: Absolutely. Yeah, we highly recommend it for any newlywed.

Jim Daly: How old, if you don’t mind me asking, how old were you guys when you got married?

Dino Petrone: I was 24 and she was 20.

Jim Daly: That’s a good time in life. Dr. Al Mohler talks about that very vehemently today that we as Christian parents are expecting our children to wait a long time to get married—finish school, college, etc. He’s like, "Let them get married sooner so that they’re not tempted." That’s not bad advice, actually.

Dino Petrone: No, we’re 100% encouraging our kids to basically do exactly that. We’ve been pushing them down that path. We’d love them to get married early if they can.

Jim Daly: Now, in your case, you start crying because you got married early, maybe. But what was at the base of those tears? What was happening?

Ashley Petrone: The base of the tears was I was alone for the first time. The idea of getting married sounds amazing young, and I love Dino. We loved each other. We had a good marriage. But we were young and still trying to figure each other out. So, all of a sudden Dino’s playing video games all the time and I didn’t know in our couple months of dating or being engaged that he even liked video games. So there were surprises that came up with no family to run to and we had to just figure everything out on our own. It was just a little bit of a shock.

Jim Daly: All right, Dino, we're going to get you in here. You're a software engineer, which means you probably like structure, solving problems—maybe her problems pretty much all day long. I get that same criticism, trust me. It’s like, that’s a natural thing for us men to do. "Oh, you’re expressing a problem? Let me tell you how you could fix it," to which Jean's like, "What? I need you to listen to me!" So I'm learning slowly. But what was your headspace at that time as a new husband and whenever you got time you’re playing video games?

Dino Petrone: They say basically you’re not really fully developed as a man till you’re almost 30, your brain kind of thing. And I was at 24, a child, basically. So yeah, those early years I was just very focused on myself. I actually didn’t see any of the major benefits or look into any of the major benefits of what fruit could I get out of our marriage. It was really what is the closest dopamine kick that I could get right in front of my face? Discipline hadn’t really incorporated itself into my life at that point yet. I was more concerned about what was a quick fix versus what things can I invest in long term into my life to make it so that the longest part of my life is the most beneficial versus the short term.

Jim Daly: You know, in some cases, let's talk guy to guy. I think I was in front of the video craze. I didn't have that issue. But news, weather, and sports—that's the same thing, screen time. I can just get home exhausted and want to get lost in that. I don't have to talk to it; it just talks to me. Speak to that space where a lot of guys, for whatever reason the way we're wired, tend to lean into that kind of passive thing where I can just go to my nothing box, as some people say, and just play games or watch TV and not have to interact.

Dino Petrone: I think that really comes down to what's going to be the quickest thing that's going to make me feel good in the moment versus what's going to be the thing that's going to help me in the long run. That's one of the big things that we advocate for now on our podcast is: Stop thinking about the short-term things that are me and think about the long-term things that are us. Because the Bible constantly is talking about the two shall become one. Especially in these early years, it was heavily about me and not us. I didn't care about the benefits of what we could get; I just cared about what I could get.

Jim Daly: How long was it before you guys said, "Maybe counseling might be helpful"? How many months or years passed?

Ashley Petrone: Dino, right away? In that 10 and a half months, we went to a counselor and I was like, "We need help."

Dino Petrone: Yeah, we had no shame in that. It was helpful just to be able to talk about it and have a third party listen. We went to a Christian counselor and it was good. The two becoming one is a painful process. There's a lot of stripping out and you have to sacrifice. It's a lot of growing and stretching. So, the counselor was great to just initially help us figure out, "Hey, maybe you do need to let aspects of you be removed so that the two of you can join."

Jim Daly: And now that you had your marriage figured out, you thought, "Oh, let’s have kids now. We’re good." So you had kids pretty quick too, right?

Ashley Petrone: We did. About two years in, we had our first son, Gabriel.

Jim Daly: And then 16 months later?

Ashley Petrone: Yep, we got pregnant by surprise. Eight months later I found out I was pregnant again. So we had another boy and they’re 15 months apart. So that was fun.

Jim Daly: You did have something that so many couples can connect with, which was a miscarriage with number three. Just describe how did that impact you? How did you get through that and keep moving?

Ashley Petrone: That was difficult because we didn’t know that I could have a miscarriage. Young, didn’t really talk to a lot of people about being pregnant and having kids. And you’d had two successful pregnancies. I had two successful pregnancies, so I thought I don’t have miscarriages. So I was very sick and we lost the baby at 11 or 12 weeks. That was devastating, obviously. But it was also a time where my parents were lovely to us and they took the two boys and we were able to just have a couple of days for me to have the miscarriage at home and for us to just connect together and really just have peace with the Lord during that time. It was a time for us to just count it all joy. I think the Lord really showed us that through that time.

Dino Petrone: It was the first time in our marriage where we had—we had been riding high. Our whole marriage we had been riding high. Everything's all aces. Every time we did anything, it was going great. We were on this beautiful slow, steady up. Things were going great. And then this was the first big punch in the gut that we had received. Looking back on it, it was an amazing opportunity for Ash and I to bond and figure out how to navigate the hard things like that.

Jim Daly: Let me ask you this because you have two broad responses to things that are tough in life. Either you get bitter and resentful, or you lean into it and say, "Okay, Lord, what is it I can learn from this?" It sounds like you guys did choose that. But it’s not easy. And then I think the question is more: speak to the value of the valley. I love that concept, that metaphor, because mountaintop people are not very deep in my opinion. If all you’ve gone through is mountaintop experience, mountaintop experience—that’s a great thing, it’s a blessing, but I think they don’t know themselves well. It’s almost like when you go through a valley, you go through a trial, that’s where the Lord shows up and that’s where you lean into Him.

Ashley Petrone: That was probably our first difficult time, but it was not the last. That has been our 19 years of marriage is that verse: Finding joy in the in-between and counting it all joy in those trials. Because that has been our marriage. But the Lord has equipped Dino and I with this ability to be able to see Him and see what He’s doing through it, use us too and the things that we’re going through to show who He is and give Him glory. So, yes, I think—I know there is a depth in those valleys that you cannot get anywhere else. And it is one of the greatest gifts. That’s why our faith is so strong is because we’ve seen what He’s done through those valleys.

Jim Daly: I want to back that truck up a little bit because it sounds like, "Yeah, have joy in all things." But you guys had to figure that out. It wasn’t like you had magic dust sprinkled over you. I mean, these things as a Christian you mature into. And I think in the book, you talked a lot about your desire to change each other. Hey, there’s a revelation! Welcome to marriage. How much can I change you? And you really need to change to make my life a lot easier. So speak to that moment of trying to change each other and how did you learn that maybe that’s not the place to start?

Dino Petrone: She—you were the one who instigated this probably the most in our marriage, to be honest.

Ashley Petrone: Instigated is an interesting word. I was the one who wanted to change? No. Well, I was really ready to change Dino, everything about him basically. No more gaming. Wait, you used to run marathons when we were dating and now you don’t work out at all. Where’s your discipline? Just all the things that I could nitpick and nag about him, I was right there, ready to go.

Jim Daly: Let me maybe for husbands, if you could speak to us. Why is that such a issue in marriage? I think both try to change each other. I'm not trying to present it differently. It just seems a little more important, perhaps, to the wives that you change, Mr. Husband.

Ashley Petrone: Would it be maybe just a need for control? Just wanting to control things and we feel that—it also could be like a motherly instinct too that I feel like I have to fix, I have to change, I have to bring this along. Or honestly, it could be just the sin of Eve, that I feel like I have to convince Dino to do something.

Jim Daly: Let me ask you though, in that context, you're speaking on behalf of all women. I think my experience with Jean, she has made me a much better man just out of those disciplines. raising for me my lack of spiritual awareness. It would be good to pray together, it would be good to read the Word together. Seriously, I mean, she has made me so much stronger in that way. But it did, I don't think we're near perfect, but we have had to progress in that way.

John Fuller: This Focus on the Family broadcast will continue in just a moment.

Ad Voice: Hey, pastors and church leaders. Dave Stone here and I am so excited to share with you a podcast that I'm hosting called Pastor to Pastor. So join me as we talk through challenges that we all face during our ministry journey. Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

Ad Voice: Sprinkle some love into your marriage this month with the Loving Well podcast from Focus on the Family. I'm Erin Smalley and I host the podcast with my husband Dr. Greg Smalley and our good friend John Fuller. We chat about how to put Christ at the center of your relationship, deepen your love, and have a marriage that truly thrives. Listen today at focusonthefamily.com/lovingwell or wherever you get your podcasts.

Ad Voice: No matter what you're going through, you are not alone. Focus on the Family is here with you every step of the way. Our caring Christian counselors will listen, share biblical advice, connect you with resources, and pray with you. You can start your path toward healing today by requesting your free confidential consult. Call us at 1-800-A-FAMILY or visit us at focusonthefamily.com/gethelp.

John Fuller: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. Let's resume now with the balance of today's program.

Jim Daly: You know let me ask you that opening we talked about: The Money Pit. I’m assuming you saw the movie? You grew up on it. So I mean that just for the listeners, I mean this is something you’ve been doing is the fixer-uppers and those kinds of things. It’s funny because it’s rooted in reality. That’s why we all laugh. That’s why the movie was made. Because this is what happens to couples. You get into this thing and then it’s friction! It’s this instant friction. Why does that environment of remodeling a home, building a home, etc. Why does that bring out kind of like the ugly parts of us?

Dino Petrone: I’ve honestly seen it in us for sure, especially on the first few projects, because we're trying to figure out each other’s roles. It’s a totally different atmosphere now. Marriage is: Hey, how can we be roommates and raise kids? Doing a home is: Hey, how can you and I work in completely different roles doing a very difficult project together, right? So this for us was really hard because we both wanted to be in the driver’s seat on different roles or we both wanted to drive at the same time on things. So it took some time, especially on these first few projects, for us to figure out, "Hey, who’s doing what? Where do we best—how do we best complement each other?"

Ashley Petrone: But then once you figure that out, it’s like, oh, again, I don’t want to be in—let you do the things that you’re strong at and let me do the things that I’m strong at. And then we work so well together. That’s hard to do though.

Jim Daly: And I guess that metaphor is really it. Who’s in the driver’s seat? I mean, that is a great question that pops up. "I thought I was the one that got to pick the colors. Why are you picking the colors? I thought I decided the doorknob types, right?" And it creates this instant friction. But it would be, I would think, probably an illustration of things that are deeper in your relationship.

Dino Petrone: It’s just another opportunity to understand dynamics of how to—okay, we have a marriage scenario, now we have another project scenario. How do we share respect? And how do we interact? And how do we engage in these types of new problems? So for us, it was really great because it allowed me to say, "Hey, I do care about the paint color in this scenario because it’s important to you," right? And that’s how we should be in marriage. Things that are important to you should be important to me and I shouldn’t just poopoo them and throw them to the side.

Jim Daly: Yeah. Tell me about how you’ve parlayed this into a ministry. I mean, this is what’s really interesting.

Ashley Petrone: Yeah. Well, the beauty of social media and doing things online. I started my Instagram page and my blog years ago with design and I had zero thoughts about having it be a part of a ministry at all. And it’s just funny how God kind of uses the things that He’s equipped us with and the gifts that He’s given us. And He’s like, "Well, actually, I gave you these gifts so that you—this could be a feeder for those things." So while the design stuff kind of brings people in, then they’re actually seeing the root and the meat behind everything in our lives. So yeah, that just kind of started when we moved into a trailer, I guess, it really started to come about.

Jim Daly: Yeah, let’s talk about the trailer. This is funny. So you guys decide you bought a piece of land, you sold your house, and bought an RV. But your experience was?

Dino Petrone: Yeah. So we were in this really comfortable phase of our lives and we said, "Hey, let’s blow all this up and sell everything and then move into a trailer and live on land. This will be a great idea." And the idea was initially, "Oh, we’ll build a house in like eight months and we’ll be done." We were delusional and we got bad advice on that, you know, this will be really quick. And a year and a half later, we had done basically nothing but move dirt around kind of thing. But in that year and a half, we realized it was not about building the house. God used the opportunity for us to go and be put through a harder scenario and go and work through difficult problems together to help us grow and figure out marriage differently.

Jim Daly: In that process, did it teach you to manage your arguments better? I guess is the point.

Ashley Petrone: For sure. Yeah. We were stripped away. We were stripped away of everything that made us comfortable and everything that Dino loved. He loved video games; there was no room for video games in the trailer. I loved buying things; there was no room to store things.

Dino Petrone: We had like 180 square feet.

Ashley Petrone: It was 180 square feet. Our three kids lived there. Everybody had a bunk and a bin. Like, that was it. That was all the stuff you had. You had one dish, one everything. We even had to figure out how we were going to argue, right? Exactly. There was no places to argue, so we had to do it in like—in that space. And you had to figure things out. You couldn’t just like storm off to the other side of the house. There was no other side of the house.

Dino Petrone: It's less impactful when you slam a sliding door then you can still see your feet.

Ashley Petrone: I know! We did do that kind of stuff. We tried. And then you just start laughing because it’s like, "I can see your feet over there." You know? It’s like, "What are we doing? Okay, let’s just talk about this."

Jim Daly: Well, you did find, despite the arguing and even kind of the death of that dream, you found contentment. You alluded to it, Dino, but talk about the bigger thing there underneath all of that.

Dino Petrone: Yeah, when you’re stripped away of all the things—like, we put ourselves in a scenario where, again, video games gone, the ability to run away when we’re having an argument gone, the ability to have all of our comforts gone. And that just brings you into this refinement phase. And then you start to look for: well, where is our joy? What are the good things in our marriage that we want to cultivate? And then let’s put our foot on the gas on those things. Let’s really start to see what could happen if we really invested in our marriage. At the same time, I started to have a very deep desire and joy in discipline, just in physical disciplines. which was ironic because this was something that Ash had been trying to push on me. She's praying hard. So she's giving you physical discipline CPR and you took that first breath.

Dino Petrone: Well, she got out of the way. She, instead of nagging, she said, "Hey, what if I just—I encourage you and say you do what you want to do. But I'm going to give you a high five if you're doing great, and if not, then I'm still going to be here and love you for no matter how you're going to do this." And it just made me desire to like—well, what happens if I actually am the man that she kind of needs? And what if I start to like change who I am to make it so that her and I could be something that's different together? And then once you start getting the benefits of those types of things, then it just becomes really easy.

Jim Daly: So that's a great example of your direction. Let's go with Ashley. What's something that Dino was ever saying, "Here's something you could do to improve"?

Ashley Petrone: Yeah, I mean, what drastically changed during that time in our marriage as well is I went to a Bible study and I had gone to it every year. It was like a mom's group. But she said something very impactful to me that just was the getting out of the way and letting God do what He needed to do in your husband. And then to focus your thoughts and your mind and your words on the things that you love and adore about your husband and not to have negative thoughts about him. And so that just clicked. And it was just a game changer in myself and then in our marriage. And from there, I think a lot of things changed.

Jim Daly: Ashley, let me—you know, you probably end up mentoring a lot of women. So let me ask the question on behalf of those women that are going, "Yeah, yeah, that must have been easy for you and Dino. You don’t know my husband." How do you get out practically speaking? How do you get out of that habit because it comes so easily to the flesh? Let me criticize the ways that I observe you. It’s just the first thing off our tongue.

Ashley Petrone: It is. I mean, the Bible says to hold our thoughts captive and it is doing that. It’s a discipline of the mind and it’s when something pops up, it’s, "No, I love Dino and I love that he—you know, the great dad that he is." And even if you can’t think of things that you really love and adore, you can think of things that you really love and adore. You did marry them. You did marry them. So there are things there if they aren’t the obvious things. And then those things can become the obvious things again. But you have to start with the mind and you really just have to reading your Bible, talking with the Lord, and holding those thoughts captive.

Jim Daly: Well, let's land here. A major theme in your book *Designed to Last* is how you don't want to settle for what's comfortable. I think everybody's heard that as we've had our dialogue here. Dino, in fact, you felt like God gave you a vision about choosing the more difficult path. Which is unusual. It's very Proverbs-esque. But how has that approach played out in your marriage and family, that the more difficult path has been the better path?

Dino Petrone: Yeah, I feel adamant that by choosing to do the hard things in life, you get significant better improvements in your life out of it. And just having being a man who has the ability to do hard things is a skill set that I want to be able to—that’s the man who I want to be. And in looking at our marriage, I had not done very difficult things up until that point. I wanted to be pushed harder. And I was before the Lord just saying, "Lord, what would you want me to do in this scenario?" And it was purely He spoke to my heart and said, "You can go which way you want to go here. I'm not going to force you down a path. But I have something that's different that is a harder path, but there's some really cool stuff on this. Do you want to go down this with me?" And it was just that posture of my heart of saying, "I do. I want to go and do fun stuff alongside You. What cool things do You want to go do, even if it's hard? I'm down to go do that." And it has been incredibly fruitful.

Jim Daly: That’s so good. Ashley, I can’t give Dino the last word. So you guys have moved from California to Florida. How are the kids doing? How are you guys doing overall?

Ashley Petrone: They’re amazing. They’ve loved living in Florida. And now we actually have another life shift—is we’re actually moving to Tennessee. So in two months... Join the country! Exactly. We’re actually going out next week and just praying. We don’t know, but we feel like the Lord’s pushing us there, somewhere in Tennessee. So we’re just going and praying.

Jim Daly: I think like 20 realtors just heard that. They'll be calling you, so give them a call. But this has been great. What a wonderful discussion. Kind of in that lightheartedness, but there were some heavy gems in here about how to love each other better as a married couple. You guys have learned that and thanks for writing the book and for passing it on. We appreciate it.

Ashley Petrone: Thank you so much for having us.

Dino Petrone: Yeah, thank you.

Jim Daly: Yeah, I'll be online looking at some of your homes and everything. Do you guys still have that little hotel down in Florida? What’s the name of it?

Ashley Petrone: Joie Inn. It means Joy.

Jim Daly: Joy. That's great. I'll have to check that out too. We love vacationing down there. Well, listen, if you are in that spot, *Designed to Last: Our Journey of Building an Intentional Home, Growing in Faith, and Finding Joy in the In-Between* is perfect. I mean, what a great way to invest not only in buildings and homes and things like that, but most importantly in your family and particularly your marriage. So get a hold of us. Make a gift of any amount and we’ll send it as our way of saying thanks.

John Fuller: Yeah, contact us today, donate generously as you can. Our number is 800-A-FAMILY. And online you’ll find us at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family Weekend. For more shows and encouragement for your entire family, stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: God wants true disciples, ones that think like Him, talk like Him, walk like Him. Disciples that bring shalom to the chaos of this world. Pursue that path with the RVL Discipleship Series. Bible scholar Ray Vander Laan will give you the tools to understand the Bible more deeply and inspire you to be a passionate follower of Christ. Watch the first episode at rvldiscipleship.com.

Guest (Child): Love never gives up. Love cares more for others than for self. Love doesn’t want what it doesn’t have. Love trusts God always. Always looks for the best, never looks back, but keeps going to the end.

John Fuller: Well, that’s a paraphrase of a well-known Bible verse that is so straightforward even a child can understand the truth there. And love is our focus today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller.

Jim Daly: Well, John, biblical love is selfless, just like that paraphrase of 1 Corinthians 13 describes. And even though it’s simple enough for a child to understand, it can be difficult to live out on a day-to-day basis, especially in challenging circumstances. And today we want to feature a story about selfless love, the kind of love that we see in Jesus Christ and how He loves each one of us. Today’s speaker is a great example of that selfless love. His name is Robertson McQuilkin. He served for 22 years as president of Columbia International University before leaving that position to care for his wife, Muriel. But I’ll let him tell you how that came about. This is an amazing story of loyalty and devotion. And you know, we just don’t hear enough stories like this one, so I’m looking forward to today’s message.

John Fuller: As am I, Jim. And with that, let’s go ahead and hear now from the late Dr. Robertson McQuilkin on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

Robertson McQuilkin: I once knew a girl. She didn't try to draw me to her; she just did. And not only me but to many other males. The first thing that caught my eye about her was her pretty face. But soon I discovered that she had a personality to go with it—vivacious, full of laughter, talented in art and music, smart, but best of all, she was an exuberant lover of God. I loved that woman, but I wasn't too good at expressing it. So she taught me. In fact, she taught me many things about love, and that's what I want to tell you about—six things Muriel taught me about love.

My parents were of the old school. They didn't believe in expressing affection, especially in public. I never saw my parents embrace, for example. I'm pretty sure they did; here I am. But when I brought Muriel home to visit, Mother ridiculed her mushy ways—forever hugging and saying she loved me right in front of the family yet! So the first thing Muriel taught me about love was that it needs to be expressed—passionately, frequently. Like King Solomon and the sun-browned Shulammite—forever talking love! And the Holy Spirit thought so much of their love-talk that He put it in a book of the Bible. He must have approved of that love-talk. We call it the Song of Songs, that is, the best of all songs.

But love expressed verbally or even physically may not be genuine love. It might be lust or some other desire to get what one wants—security. The motive for love-talk can be to get, not to give. So in scripture, we find the term "love" more often a verb than a noun. A verb describing action more than a noun describing feeling. Muriel spent 35 years demonstrating her love for me by her actions. In fact, she seemed to live for me, certainly not for herself. She was oblivious to her own rights or desires or even her own welfare. She taught me that love to be genuine must be acted out 24/7. Her creative mind—the most creative I ever knew, you know I’m prejudiced—was constantly bursting with new ways to set all the wrongs in this world right. But above all, she seemed to live to bring my goals to fruition.

Paul instructed us in how to love our mates. Husbands, he said, love your wives—how? As Christ loved the church—that’s you! And how did Christ love the church? And gave Himself up for it, in Ephesians 5. Jesus Himself put it this way: Greater love has no one than this, than one lay down his life for a friend, in John 15. To love then is to lay down life—dreams, ambitions, rights, pleasures, if need be, for the best interest of one’s mate or one’s loved one. And sometimes it would seem easier to lay down life in one heroic blaze of martyrdom than to lay it down daily in small increments.

Another thing Muriel taught me about love—about married love—is that it partners. She was always a full partner. And we were church planting in Japan; she just knocked herself out in doing teaching and evangelism. Just a full partner! So when we came back for me to lead what is now Columbia International University, she assumed she’d do the same. But I said, "I don’t think that’s going to work." And the other faculty wives told her the same thing. One day she came home crestfallen because when she asked them, "What am I supposed to do?" they replied, "Well, honey, you don’t have to do anything." That’s just what she didn’t want to hear. So she pitched in to make my work prosper. As the first lady on campus, she was a great entertainer. Students were drawn to her for counsel and she taught women’s classes and she provided for the married students something that we had neglected up until then. She had a daily talk show on the radio; she created a segment for a popular children’s program on TV. And when the board wanted to reimburse her for some of her activities, she said, "No, no, no. We’re already paid." She felt it was a partnership.

Now, I don’t tell that to you as a model for anybody. No other marriage is going to work that way. But every marriage needs to be a partnership. Just as she mobilized her brains and energy to make my work succeed, she taught me to do the same thing for her dreams. And that will tighten any marriage.

Once had an interesting experience with this Ephesians 5 passage. Couple came to me for counsel. They were in constant conflict. So I said, "Well, let’s turn to Ephesians 5." And the wife burst out, "No need! My husband reads it to me every night!" Now, I didn’t ask, but I knew what part he read. And it wasn’t "love your wives as Christ loved the church." It wasn’t that part. It was "wives, be in subjection to your own husbands." I discovered that many of our married students—the husbands were reading Ephesians 5 every night to their wives. And the men’s organization asked me to speak to them, so I decided to speak to them on "Little Woman: Booster or Buster?" This was in the '70s before Christians had joined the feminist revolution.

So I told them, "You guys are Americans. You’re not kind of some Saudi sheikh or Japanese *Goshujin*. You're in America. You talk things over, you seek consensus, you postpone the decision." That’s the way of love! And then I used myself as an example. I said, "You know, in our whatever it was then, 30 years—30 years of marriage, I haven’t pulled rank on Muriel more than five times when we couldn’t come to resolution, had to be decided, and I’d say, 'Well, honey, someone has to call this shot and I guess I’m the designated player.'" Well, they liked the speech and they invited me to come back and give the same speech the following year. And I thought, "Well, I’ll do better. I’ll bring Muriel along and she can give the ladies' viewpoint on it." So I was giving my speech, she was sitting on the front row, and I got to this part about how many times I’d pulled rank on her. And, you know, wives being in subjection to your husband. And I thought, "Oh, my, she may not remember the same way I do." But I plunged in and said it anyway and then I turned to her and said, "Honey, is that right?" And very forcefully, she said, "Three!" She knew every one of them—when they happened, what the occasion was! Married love is a full partnership. Muriel taught me that.

And then love is companionship. But in 1978—25 years ago—that bright light in my life began to dim. We were in Florida with friends and she told a story—long story, five minutes maybe. And then a few minutes later she started in on the same story. And I said, "Honey, you already told us that." She laughed and went ahead with it. And I thought, "That’s never happened before. What’s going on?" But it happened again and again. She was 55 years old. They call that kind of Alzheimer’s "early onset." Now over 80, one out of four Americans falls to Alzheimer’s. But 55? So first loss was the ability to hostess, so we catered the meals for guests. She was reading to a blind student—reading the textbooks for a blind student. Later I discovered she’d put it on tape so that other blind students could use it. I discovered they weren’t using the tapes. Her artistic ability failed. They canceled her radio show.

But still Muriel taught me about love. She wanted to be with me. And the board wanted me to stay on forever—I mean, things were going great, booming, right at the peak of—well... and so they employed a live-in companion for Muriel. And the purpose was to keep her because she wouldn’t stay at home. She was half a mile up the road on campus and she wanted to be with me! So she’d come down and the secretary’d say, "I’m sorry, but there’s someone in the office." She’d go home and then she’d come back again. So this live-in companion was supposed to be with her. Muriel called her "her jailer." And she would escape. One day she made the round trip—she speed-walked—made the round trip ten times. That’s ten miles. And that night when I took off her shoes, I found bloody feet.

So, next time I went to see my doctor for my annual, I told him this story. And he choked up. And he said, "What love!" Content—totally content when with me. Totally uncontent when I’m away. Well, in 1990 in February, I realized that I couldn’t do what the school needed and what Muriel needed. Somebody else could do the school. Nobody else could do Muriel; she had to have me. So that night in the middle of the night before our annual board meeting, I made the decision to leave the dreams and the work just at its peak to care for Muriel. The next morning I told the students and the faculty—already told the board—that this was probably the easiest big decision I’d ever made. And the reason it was so easy was it had been made 40 years before when I promised "I will, till death do us part." As a man of integrity, I keep my word. And then I said, "It’s not just that though, it’s fairness. She’s cared for me unstintingly all these years. If I should care for her another 30 years, I’d still be in her debt." But I said, "Integrity and fairness could be so stoic and so dry, and it’s not that way, actually—I love her. I don’t have to take care of her; I get to take care of her." And so I told them and we began a new chapter in our lives. Love is companionship.

And the fifth thing Muriel taught me about love is that it is enduring. David asked the question about who is God’s companion, who is acceptable to Him? And his answer: Those who keep their promises even when it hurts, Psalm 15. Or another translation: Those who keep their promises no matter how much it may cost.

John Fuller: This Focus on the Family broadcast will continue in just a moment.

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John Fuller: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. Let's resume now with the balance of today's program.

Robertson McQuilkin: After Muriel was in bed, she’d lost all her ability to speak—hadn’t spoken in a year—and she couldn’t feed herself, she couldn’t stand, she couldn’t walk. And it was Valentine’s Eve and I was on my exercycle at the foot of her bed. And I said, "Honey, I just read that you and I are victims. We don’t feel like victims, do we?" Now, she didn’t talk, but I talk to her. Still do. So then the next morning I was again—while she was waking up—I was on the exercycle. And I said, you know, I told her I loved her. And I said, "You love me, don’t you?" And all of a sudden she opened her eyes and smiled and for the first time in a year, she spoke. And she said, "Love, love, love!" I jumped off the cycle and ran around and embraced her and I said, "You really do love me, don’t you?" Well, she didn’t know what to do to answer that, but she wanted to respond, so she said, "I'm nice."

Last words that she spoke. Fast forward for ten years. Last week I had someone come in to stay with her while I went to a committee meeting and this was a new sitter; she’s a missionary on furlough. And I was changing and fixing Muriel and I explained to her how Muriel was so healthy. I said, "You know, look at her skin and her—she never gets sick, ever. Never had a bed sore. I mean, she’s just in wonderful health. My big prayer is that I’ll outlive her." And I told this to the lady. And so then I went over to Muriel and I said, "Am I going to outlive you, honey?" Here’s somebody that hasn’t talked for ten years. And she didn’t speak, but she grunts a lot, you know, if I clean her teeth or do something she doesn’t like—*unh-unh-unh*—you know, that kind of complaint. But when I asked her, "Am I going to outlive you?" just as clear as day, she said, "Uh-uh!" I hope it’s not prophetic. But that’s it—till death do us part. That’s the deal.

Soon after I resigned—about two years after I resigned—some new students took a liking to Muriel and they wanted to sit with her, and they’re a couple. We were sitting out in the garden and the young—the husband said, "Do you miss being president?" And I said, "You know, I never thought about it, but the answer is no, I don’t miss being president. I like my assignment. I like to learn how to cook." She wouldn’t eat it if it wasn’t very tasty, so I had to learn how to cook and keep house and the garden. I said, "I like it!" Which was an honest answer. I went to bed and I got to thinking, "Lord, now You don’t have to explain to me why. That’s Your business, You’re under no obligation, so I don’t ask You why. I live in a fallen world and suffering is part of our..." But I said, "If the coach puts the player on the bench, it’s obvious he doesn’t need him in the game. So if sometime You want to tell me why I’m not in the game, I’d be much obliged." And I went on to sleep.

The next day—at that time we were still walking, she could still walk sort of, and I’d hold her hand to keep her balance—we walked around the block. We were coming down the block that has a steep embankment on one side and a curb and a very busy street on the other side. And we never met anybody there; I was very grateful because we couldn’t pass and I couldn’t let go of her hand. But this day, I heard some shuffling behind me. I looked around and here was a local derelict, three sheets to the wind, weaving down the street. And I said, "Well, he’ll never catch up." But he did. And he weaved right out into the traffic and back in front of us and he turned around and looked us up and down and he says, "I like that. I really like that. That’s good." And he turned around and weaved off down the street mumbling to himself, "That’s good. I like that. That’s real good."

Then I chuckled—you like affirmation from whatever the source—and went back to the garden, sat down there, and then I said, "Lord, was that You speaking through the lips of a half-inebriated old drunk? It was! And if You say it’s good, that’s all I need to know." And so it is with you. Whatever your assignment, if you're in God's place of assignment, that's good. That's real good. So that’s the end of the story of what Muriel has taught me about love. How could she teach me anything now? She lies abed unaware of anything. Yes, she could. May I tell you? I’ve been setting you up. Couple of years ago, when I was looking at her lying quietly in sleep—that’s when she’s most like earlier days—then I was thinking of how lovable she is and how I love her now, perhaps more than ever.

And the heartache is she can't love me back. And I thought, "Lord, is that the way it is between You and me? You pouring out Your love on me by day and by night, caring for me, protecting me, providing for me, longing for my constant companionship, and all You get in return are a few grunts when things don’t please me? How sad for Him." Sad because love for Him is the ultimate purpose of life. In John chapter 17, we have recorded a conversation between the Father and the Son. Now there's unity, my friend, there's love, there's intimacy. And the Son is speaking to the Father. The problem with this passage is that it's been so co-opted by the ecumenical movement to teach unity among believers, important as that is, that we may miss the point. And what a point! Listen to it with fresh ears. This is the Son speaking now to the Father: "My prayer for all of them—that’s you, all of them—is that they will be one—how?—just as You and I are one, Father. That just as You are in Me and I am in You, so they will be in Us. So that they may be one as We are. I in them and You in Me, all being perfected into one." Oh, my friend, that’s His purpose. He created us in love, out of love, for love.

John Fuller: What a touching story there of faithfulness and devotion and unconditional love. And that’s the late Dr. Robertson McQuilkin on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. You know, Jim, some listeners are fully aware firsthand of what the challenges are of caregiving for a spouse.

Jim Daly: I can tell you, after having Jean take care of me with a broken ankle a few years ago, I can see just a glimmer of how difficult that can be for the caregiver. And yet Dr. McQuilkin counted it all joy, like the apostle Paul. Of course, he was blessed to be in a position to be able to retire early, and not everybody has that luxury, and I get that. Muriel passed away in September 2003, five months after Dr. McQuilkin gave this very speech. In a letter to their friends and supporters, he wrote: "For 55 years she was flesh of my flesh and bone of my bone. So it’s like a ripping of my flesh and deeper, my very bones. Some may think I feel relief from the burden; after all, it was ten years of total caregiving. But it doesn’t work like that. There’s a bonding with the one who is totally dependent on you and takes love to a deeper level. The pain is greater, not less." That is really touching.

John Fuller: Yeah, it really is, Jim. And I should note that Dr. McQuilkin did find love again. In 2005, he married Deborah Jones and they had 11 years of happiness together until he died in 2016 at the age of 88.

Jim Daly: A strong and enduring love is what we want for everyone who is married, and that’s why Focus on the Family’s working hard to provide the resources that you need. Just one example is our free online marriage assessment to help you identify the strengths and weaknesses of your relationship. You take a quiz and then you’ll be guided to articles that will help you in those areas of weakness that it will identify. Here’s a note we received from Kristen a few weeks after she and her husband took the assessment. She said: "The discussions we’ve had since completing the marriage assessment have been a bit emotional, but we’ve had some revelations that caused a major breakthrough. We are experiencing what I’d call a second honeymoon. Thanks, Focus on the Family, for all you do."

John Fuller: How about that one? I don’t know that anybody thought a five or ten-minute quiz would bring a second honeymoon, but what a great outcome. And Jim, over a million couples now have completed that assessment, so I can only imagine how many others are experiencing breakthroughs like that.

Jim Daly: Well, it’s amazing, but we can’t do this work alone. We need your financial partnership and your prayers for this ministry as well. The best way to help is to become a true sustainer of this ministry by making a monthly pledge. It doesn’t have to be a large amount. It’s the consistency that really helps us even out the budget month to month and year to year. And when you make a pledge of any amount, we’ll send you Robertson McQuilkin’s book called *A Promise Kept*. It’s a much deeper look at his marriage to Muriel and how they walked through so many difficult years together. That’ll be our way of saying thank you for partnering with us. And if you can’t make that monthly commitment right now, we understand that; we can send the book to you for a one-time donation of any amount as well. And when you get the book from us, we’ll include a free audio download of Dr. McQuilkin’s complete presentation. So get in touch with us today.

John Fuller: Yeah, get your copy of this beautiful little gift book, *A Promise Kept*, when you call 800-A-FAMILY. 800-232-6459. Or donate online and request the book and your free audio download at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And when you’re online with us, look for that free marriage assessment that helped Kristen and her husband, and also look for a link to our Loving Well podcast, another great resource for married couples. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I’m John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family Weekend. For more shows and encouragement for your entire family, stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.