Focus on the Family

Guest (Male): I feel like I blinked and now my newborn can walk and talk. Kids change so fast, don't they? It can be hard to keep up with each new phase. That's why I love Focus on the Family's Age and Stage Newsletter. Each week, I get an email with resources curated by experts. They're full of biblically and clinically-based tips tailored to your child, no matter what age they are. You can sign up today at mykidsage.com. That's mykidsage.com.

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John Fuller: This is John Fuller and please remember to let us know how you're listening to these programs on a podcast, app, or website.

Dr. Jenny Coffee: God is ultimately doing good for me, He's ultimately doing good for our family, but I'm seeing it through the lens of: this is hard, this is uncomfortable, I don't like this, I don't want to go in this direction. So I'm fighting it, I'm pouting about it, I'm having a bad attitude. God is saying if you'll just shift your attitude, this will be so much more pleasant for you, so much more pleasant for your family. It was just kind of an aha moment for me.

John Fuller: That's Kristen Rouche describing a very common challenge that many moms face, especially in those early years of parenting. Maybe you're experiencing something like that right now or you know a mom who's struggling. If so, stick with us for today's Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. We have a lot of encouragement from women who've been there and done that.

Jim Daly: John, we had a great conversation last time with our panel of moms: Kristen Rouche, Ashley Durand, and our colleague, Dr. Jenny Coffee, who's a member of our counseling team. We covered a lot of ground: the chaos of motherhood, child meltdowns, the illusion of control, and how perfect families, perfect kids, and perfect moms are all impossible.

It was really good stuff and if you missed last time, get the download or watch it on YouTube or get the Focus on the Family app so you can review the great content anytime you like.

John Fuller: And the basis for the conversation last time and today is a wonderful book written by Kristen and Ashley called *Mothering on Empty: How Moms Like You Found God's Joy*. With that, here's how we began part two of our conversation on today's Focus on the Family with Jim Daly.

Jim Daly: You know, one of the statistics that shocked me was the amount of depression in moms of newborns and infants. It's like anywhere from 50 to 80 percent. That is shocking to me. I didn't realize it was that steep. Jenny, what's happening?

Dr. Jenny Coffee: I think it's probably lack of community. I was even talking to my husband last night about just how different stages and it really doesn't—I don't know if it gets easier through parenting.

I do—I will say like I have more acquaintances through like my kids' sports. Oh, I see these parents all the time, they're familiar, they're comfortable. But like deep friendships are just really hard no matter what stage you're in. And so the number is surprising, but I think for a lot of people they just kind of trudge along and assume that that's normal.

Jim Daly: Ashley, I would think especially for the new mom, your firstborn, that is a big transition socially because you're doing probably a lot of outings with other couples that don't have kids, it's your network, and then you have a child and socially it's very different. It could be isolating because your friends just keep doing what they're going to do and you really don't fit in with an infant.

Ashley Durand: Absolutely. And like I said, for me, our son was colicky. And so we felt like we couldn't go out anywhere because he was crying all the time. And it was just like we were taking turns outside the restaurant holding the crying baby while the other one was in with the other people. And so, yeah, it definitely was kind of an adjustment and a bit isolating at first until we realized that it's okay for your baby to cry in public and a lot of other parents understand and that your real friends will be there for you no matter if they're going through a different stage of life or not.

Jim Daly: It sounds like the big issue there is just relax. This is just a phase. Don't get emotionally worked up that it'll never be better. And again, those social structures need to reconnect and you'll find other new moms, especially again hopefully through church.

Ashley Durand: Yes. I think joining a moms group was a game changer for me to hear other moms say, "Oh yeah, my baby does the same thing," or, "I haven't—I didn't sleep for a certain period of time." And to see that they survived that and that they were thriving. MOPS—Moms of Preschoolers—is a great organization. That was great for me.

Jim Daly: Kristen, did you find that difficulty, that isolation?

Kristen Rouche: I did. And I don't know what gave me this expectation, but I thought I could just carry on with normal life after having a newborn. Leave him in the baby chair, I'm going out for dinner. Exactly. Just strap them on and keep going and nothing would change and everything would be the same.

And again, I had to shift my expectations when that didn't happen. It's like, okay, is it something wrong with me? Am I doing this wrong or is this just how motherhood is? And so I think I had a very romanticized view of motherhood and it's going to be all sunshine and rainbows and I'm going to cuddle with my baby all the time and they're going to wake up smiling.

And so when it doesn't go like that, it's kind of a shock. And so I think, going back to your question about depression, I think there could be several things going on. Either the romanticized view that's realized to not be accurate can be really hard to come to terms with.

And also just really feeling like you're failing a lot of the time gets demoralizing. Like, man, can I ever get this right? And moms are just faced with that day after day after day and they don't have those networks to be able to voice it to other people or to connect with other moms and be like, "Oh, yeah, I also feel that way." And so you're just down on yourself constantly and that builds over time, I think.

Jim Daly: Ashley, let me ask you, describe why rest for moms is so important and how can moms prioritize rest? You know my schedule? Just to voice it.

Ashley Durand: It does feel like you can't rest. It feels like you need to take care of everyone else around you. There's always more to-dos than done. Yes. And when you have a baby that just needs to be fed every two hours or wants to only sleep when you're holding them, it can just feel like you can't take a break.

But when you don't take a break and when you don't sleep, your mental health goes downhill quick and you're not able to effectively love your family as well as you can otherwise. I remember a season where I hadn't been sleeping because my baby was awake all night and I read the verse that says, "Come to me, you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

And every mom said, "Amen." I'm weary. And I realized that not only was I physically tired, I was spiritually and emotionally tired. I hadn't been taking a rest for my soul and spending time with the Lord. And that it was okay to ask somebody for help, to say, "I really need a rest and I need you to come sit with my baby for an hour or two hours." And it's okay to go get your hair done, get your nails done, spend a time reading the Bible or take a nap or whatever you need.

Jim Daly: You know what's interesting with that? Jean and I did foster care. In foster care, you do training and they encourage respite families. Respite families—for those that don't realize this—these are families that will come around a foster parent and help them by doing a chore, taking the kids for a weekend so the foster family can have a break.

And I kept thinking, man, every family needs respite families, right? Back to your point, especially new moms. And that's where that friendship group again or family, if you guys can structure it that way to even work it out where grandparents can take the little ones for a weekend to give you and your husband a 24-hour break, a 48-hour break if that's doable. That's a good thing to do. Little space, a little connection time, a little rest for you.

Ashley, let me ask you. You had a difficult first pregnancy and in that context, describe what you went through and then help us understand kind of how that led into a faith struggle for you. And what was the difficulty?

Ashley Durand: Well, I had hyperemesis gravidarum. It's where you're throwing up all the time through the whole nine months. Most people are better through after the first trimester, but I was throwing up nine times a day or more for nine months. I had to get fluids at the ER and it was rough. I mean, driving in the car, I had to pull over and throw up in random yards.

Jim Daly: That's you! Oh, okay. That's terrible, I'm sorry. But I mean, that's a hard way to experience a pregnancy. It's unusual.

Ashley Durand: It was very hard. I was just so sick. And then when I had—I felt like as soon as I have the baby, it'll be better. But then I had a really traumatic birth. There was an unplanned C-section and the pain medication—the epidural—didn't work and so I felt the C-section operation. I passed out. Then I had an allergic reaction to the medications afterwards.

So you were ready to roll as a new mom. It was really, really hard. And then when we left the hospital, my baby had colic and he cried all the time. He was awake all night for every night for the first probably year of life.

And I really wrestled with God on why. Why do some people have like the easiest pregnancies and they have home births with no medication and their babies are happy and smiling and then this was my story? And I just kept saying, "Why, God? Why? I don't see any lesson that you're supposed to be teaching me here."

Because you always look for the lesson. But I felt like God was telling me, "You don't need to know why. You just need to be faithful to me and trust me." And the fact that it was such a hard pregnancy and birth has made mothering my son so powerful and makes it worth so much because it cost me so much to get there.

And so if anything, I can be thankful for that and that God has allowed—He preserved my life through that birth and allowed me the opportunity to be a mother and just to be grateful for that. And sometimes I realized that sometimes God just gives us harder assignments than He gives other people and we can't compare to the people who seem to have it better. All we can do is just say, "Yes, Lord, I'm willing and I will trust you, even though I may not understand it."

Jim Daly: Sounds like Paul: be content in all things.

John Fuller: I remember Dina, my wife, sometimes looking at me saying, "It shouldn't be this hard. I've wanted to be a mom all these years. It shouldn't be this hard."

Jim Daly: Now, you had to have the golden answer as the husband.

John Fuller: The golden answer is to not answer the question. That's exactly right.

Jim Daly: Obviously some fun today with our panel of moms on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm trusting that you're finding some fun in your motherhood journey as we have this conversation. That's why we're here and that's why we recommend you get a copy of the book written by our guests, Ashley and Kristen, called *Mothering on Empty: How Moms Like You Found God's Joy*. Look for it at our website, focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Kristen, I want to ask you this because you were a business owner before being a mom and you had to make that decision. Jean was in biochemistry and teaching labs at a university when we got pregnant with Trent. So for so many young women today, that becomes such a struggle because they don't know the value of each.

And man, do we as a culture put value on working outside the home, kind of neglecting the beauty—everything you said at the beginning, John—just how amazing motherhood is and the contribution it makes to the culture. I mean, you're thinking it's just your family, but think if we had healthier children growing up what that next generation would look like: capable young people that aren't depressed, that don't have anxiety because more parents were willing to be in the home at the time of being little. But describe that battle that you had in your decision to stay at home.

Kristen Rouche: Yeah, it was a battle. I wrestled a lot because I had all these different voices. I had my own desires of wanting to apply my passions and my giftings and the things I had learned in school. I love working for myself, being self-employed and being able to have the gratification of growing a business and seeing the fruit of your labor. It's really rewarding.

And so to set that aside is really difficult. But then you have this life, this eternal being that you're pouring into too and you want to soak up every moment and you want to be present.

And then you have social voices too. I just kind of felt the pressure to be Mom Plus. You need to be a mom, but you also need to be furthering your education or you need to be a mom and you need to be working or you need to be a mom and you need to be doing all these extracurricular activities. I just kind of felt that exterior pressure on top of my own internal pressure. So it's a lot to kind of process through and figure out: Okay, what are the priorities? What is God asking of me in this season?

And I didn't want to listen to the Lord, to be honest. I did and I didn't. I wanted to be obedient, but I also wanted what I wanted. And so I tried to juggle both. I wanted to sort of obey God but also keep some of what I wanted.

And God was like, "Okay, we can play this game." I mean, God is so patient. Again, He's so patient. He lets us fumble things, He lets us make bad decisions, He lets us learn from our bad decisions, and He graciously picks us back up and goes, "Okay, let's do this a different way." So it got to the point where I couldn't put off closing down my business anymore. And so the Lord just brought me to that breaking point and He's like, "Okay, I'm going to close it down for you."

And so He did and it was very hard, but it was also one of the best things for my motherhood because I could finally close that chapter and have the head space and the energy and the presence to be there with my kids and to invest in them.

Jim Daly: Which is beautiful. I understand there's going to be some moms in a place they have to work or at least the budget, they feel the constraints, and so I'll have to do this. And I would suggest it's good to look at doing that for a season, but again those early years, the more frequently that you can spend time in home with those kids when they're little, the better they will be, the healthier they will be. Not to put a guilt trip on anybody, but I think that's generally the rule of thumb. It's better for you to sacrifice in that moment and then you'll reap the rewards.

Kristen, I want to follow up with you. You also had postpartum experiences. And I just for the women that have gone through that, it's not unique but it's cloudy. Describe it.

Kristen Rouche: No, so I definitely grew up with the idea that real Christians don't deal with depression. I think that was just kind of prevalent in the time that I grew up in. And so I just, being a believer in Christ and having what I considered to be a strong faith in Jesus, I was like, "Okay, well then I'll never deal with depression. We can check that off the list."

And so I remember, as part of the prep for my birth, I had to go to classes that talked about postpartum depression and I would just kind of tune out and think about other things. But in reality, I was really struggling.

Jim Daly: What did it look like for you? Give me the adjectives that describe that.

Kristen Rouche: I felt alone. I felt disinterested in the things that used to bring me joy and happiness. I felt totally overwhelmed. My sleep was all over the place. I was exhausted during the day and I couldn't sleep at night. I was struggling with anxiety. I just—I felt a lot of emptiness.

And the key is what do you do to cope with those things when you're feeling or despondent toward the baby? Like, "I don't want to be doing this." And it was really hard for me to connect with a newborn. Especially when they don't smile at you in those early weeks where it's just kind of like a burrito that you have to change their diaper and they don't really connect with you.

This is hard. And so because you long to connect with your child, and so in those early weeks where they're still developing and they don't connect fully, it just feels very lonely.

Jim Daly: Did you translate that into "What's wrong with me as a mom? I'm not feeling this connection. Something's wrong with me."

Kristen Rouche: There was a lot of shame that went with that. It lingered for about nine months. And we had just moved to a different state and we were getting caught up on some of the kids' doctor visits and things. So we finally got plugged into a pediatrician and she's like, "Okay, well, I'm going to send you some questionnaires that you should have taken earlier, but we'll just do them now."

And so I remember sitting in this new pediatrician's office and I thought my questionnaires were done. It was mostly the: Are they crawling? Are they rolling over? Are they doing X, Y, and Z? And so I turned the page and it was questions about me. Oh, okay.

And for whatever reason, I decided to read the questions this time. And as I went through the list, I realized, "Oh wow, I'm depressed." And it was just kind of this—it was a sinking feeling and a relief at the same time to have an answer for why I was feeling all of these things. And so then I had to come to terms with, well, I guess Christians can be depressed.

Jim Daly: Jenny, let me come back to you because you've seen this in your practice. But the idea, first, those adjectives that help describe a woman—and you may not know. I mean, to your point, Kristen, "Am I postpartum? I don't know." What would that look like and what is the help that she needs in that moment? What should she do? A new mom, let's just assume there are new moms listening and they're where Kristen was. "I'm not feeling this connection or this bond. What's wrong with me?"

Dr. Jenny Coffee: So first of all, I think it's helpful to differentiate baby blues and postpartum depression. Postpartum depression is an actual diagnosis and there's criteria for that. Baby blues, most people go through that.

And when you think about it transparently, it's like what your body just went through, your hormones getting back into swing, all of those things. It makes total sense. There's nothing wrong with you to feel a little off. It's like, well, yeah, if you had this massive, arguably the biggest thing you'll ever do, of course you're going to feel a little off.

Postpartum depression, I tell people if you're starting to really feel very disconnected from your baby, listless, non-motivated in a way where I'm talking non-motivated like I haven't showered in a week, those types of things. Those are the things I really encourage people: tell your husband, maybe tell your mom or sisters or other trusted women in your circle and get some perspective on—and be honest in that perspective. If you're going to reach out, be honest. And then really, truly, this can be a little taboo, but more often than not, if it's true postpartum depression, it needs medication. Temporary medication to reset hormones.

Jim Daly: Is that typical, a nine-month kind of run? Is it all over the map or within a year or so that should be taken care of?

Dr. Jenny Coffee: Well, I think Kristen would probably affirm that the quicker you address it, the faster it will go probably. And so it's not going to just typically go on its own. So that's something to tell people.

And I actually like to remind people there's a statistic that actually says if you dealt with any type of postpartum—so postpartum depression, anxiety, or OCD, because there's three, there's not just postpartum depression—if you deal with any of those in the first two years, it can show up for seven years afterwards.

So it's not just this short period of when they're a year that feels like ten, right? It actually can pop back up. And more often than not, I do tell people to be aware if you have previous mental health diagnoses like depression, bipolar, major depression disorder, then it is more likely that you will struggle with postpartum. So just being aware of that transparency can help people.

Jim Daly: And you know, one of the great things if you are not sure, call us here at Focus on the Family. You can talk to someone like Jenny who is in the counseling department. We can arrange that call and you can just talk to them about what you're experiencing as a new mom and is this something that's normal or should I get some help? They can provide some guidance in that way and John will give those details in a minute.

Jenny, this idea of grace for oneself. It's probably one of the more difficult topics, right? It doesn't feel good to have grace for myself. I should be performing so I feel better about myself. But the whole prospect of grace, the whole attitude of that, is it's grace. It's not something you have to earn, it's not something you have to work toward. This is God's gift to us, His grace toward us. Why do we struggle so much extending that to ourselves?

Dr. Jenny Coffee: I think part of it has to do with the fact that we're afraid that if we drop the bar just a little bit, then everything else will fall. And that was something that I've kind of had to reevaluate the last few years for myself was: if you're juggling a ton of balls and every single ball is glass, then you can't let any of them drop.

And the imagery I have for myself is I bet some of these are dryer balls. Like, I bet some of them have got to be dryer balls. They're bouncy. It's fine. And so you pick the things that it's like these are more glass, these are more fragile, I care more about these things or they're more priority to me.

And then the other things where it's like maybe the dishes don't get done today or whatever it is. Like yesterday afternoon, I'd had all day of seeing clients and meetings and I got home and I knew I had another appointment that evening. And so I conked out on the couch for like 30 minutes. And there was part of it for me where I usually am not falling asleep, I'm resting.

But what that's really modeled, what I have found—and not that my kids are perfect—they give me so much grace back when I've gotten better at giving it to myself. And so modeling that to them, especially with them being older, like I'll wake up and be like, "I'm sorry I lay down, guys," and they're like, "Mom, it's okay that you rested."

They give that grace and so I found that the more I model that because I want them to do that for themselves when they're older. If you have parents that are just doers all the time, then you're going to have children that feel like I'm not allowed to mess up, I'm not allowed to rest, I have to be productive, I have to be doing. And really what I try to help people to realize is like rest is productive. It's not something to put on your list, but it is a productive thing to do.

Jim Daly: Well, for that mom of young children, you might need to put it on the list. Rest from 2:00 to 2:20. I mean, that's not a bad idea.

Dr. Jenny Coffee: But it's not something to achieve, I guess is my point. It's not something to say like, "Oh, I did so good at rest today," or more stress. I'm just laying there going, "I gotta rest, I gotta rest, it's on my checklist." Right. And then your brain's just going to keep you awake.

Jim Daly: Well, that is great and such a delightful conversation with our panel of moms: Ashley Durand, Kristen Rouche, and Dr. Jenny Coffee. I think many families and especially moms have been encouraged by what we've shared these past two days. To follow up, get a copy of the book that Kristen and Ashley have written, published by Focus on the Family and Tyndale House. It's called *Mothering on Empty: How Moms Like You Found God's Joy*. I mean, who doesn't want that joy in motherhood? This resource will help you. It's full of stories and compassion and godly truth and I know you and your children will benefit from it.

John Fuller: Make a donation of any amount to Focus on the Family today and we'll send this book to you. It's our way of saying thank you for stepping up and being a part of the support team and helping us minister to families literally around the world. Call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY or donate and get that book *Mothering on Empty* at our website, and that's focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: I'm reminded of a comment we received years ago from a mom named Kristen who had three kids ages six and under. She described living in the moment, just trying to get through minute by minute instead of being able to enjoy her children. But then Kristen found our resources which helped her reconnect with her kids and experience special memories with them.

And I just want to say thanks to the generosity of our friends who support the ministry. We can have this kind of impact every day with moms, dads, and their children. That's why I encourage you to do ministry through your giving to Focus on the Family. Donate today and together let's rescue and encourage more moms like Kristen.

John Fuller: And again our number: 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY or donate at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Coming up tomorrow, some powerful advice about building community in your own backyard.

Guest (Male): So it starts with prayer and one of the challenges in that is simply the question: Do you know your neighbor's names to be able to pray for them?

John Fuller: Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back next time as we will once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.