Focus on the Family

John Fuller: This is John Fuller. Please remember to let us know how you're listening to these programs, whether it's on a podcast, app, or website.

Guest (Male): What do you mean we don't talk anymore?

Guest (Female): When was the last time we sat down and just had a conversation?

Guest (Male): For crying out loud, what do you think we're doing now? I could be watching the game, I could be playing on the computer.

Guest (Female): Watch your silly game, okay? Fine! Alone!

Guest (Male): I usually do.

John Fuller: Well, maybe you and your spouse know conflict like that all too well, as if you've memorized that pattern, those habits, and the dance steps. Every time you have a disagreement or a tough issue to navigate, there you are again.

If you can relate, we have some hope and practical help for you today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller and thanks for joining us.

Jim Daly: How many couples have these disagreements and then hours later, or days later, you go, "What was our problem? What were we fighting about?" You can remember the intensity of it, but often times you don't even remember what the subject was.

That's because we're reacting out of a dysfunction somewhere that we learned. It's a trigger, and we're pushing each other's buttons. That's one of the things I am way too good at with Jean, pushing that button. I feel bad about it, but it's almost like a reflex.

When she says something to me, I just go bing and then boom, she reacts to that and then off to the races we go. Now, you would think after being married 39 years, we'd have some of this figured out. And we do, and we're getting better, but it still comes up.

It just pops its ugly head and then we have to say, "I'm sorry, will you forgive me?" which is all good, but why not avoid going there in the first place? Today, we're going to give you some tools to be able to recognize those patterns in your life and how to respond with the adult brain that God has given us.

John Fuller: Ron and Nan Deal are here. Ron has joined us a number of times for a variety of conversations. He's a marriage and family therapist, probably best known for his work with stepfamilies.

His wife, Nan, is a former teacher and they speak together at marriage conferences. Together, they've written a terrific resource called *The Mindful Marriage: Create Your Best Relationship Through Understanding and Managing Yourself.*

You can learn more about our guests and get a copy of this resource at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Ron, welcome back. Nan, welcome for the first time. It's great to have you.

Nan Deal: Thank you. It's good to be here.

Jim Daly: It's always a little more difficult when the spouse shows up for this kind of interview because we sound so brilliant as husbands or wives alone, but when we're together, it's accountability time. I think Jean might say, "Yeah, you could write the book *The Mindless Marriage*." Jean would never actually say that, but I might think that she's thinking it.

It's so true. Let's start right there. Why do we, as mature Christians walking with the Lord for a long time, still fall into these traps? I've been a Christian for over 8,000 days of my life, and sometimes I still don't know the right way to respond.

Ron Deal: We have learned so much about how the brain, body, and soul work in the last 20 years. Neuroscience has taught us a tremendous amount about the brain and how it functions. Nan and I have been married 39 years, and we tell our audiences we're just beginning to figure this thing out.

It's the same reason why most people go to church on Sunday, hear truth, and walk out going, "That was for me," yet nothing changes. There are certain things that are set neurologically within the brain. It is our mind that needs to tell our brain how to behave.

Paul talks about renewing your mind. Your mind is above your brain, but there's a physicality to your brain that develops neurological pathways. You said a minute ago Jean might say something and you have a reflex. That is exactly the right word. Your brain has a reflex and in a nanosecond, you go from zero to 100.

Something in the prefrontal cortex has been triggered by a pain that you've experienced and your midbrain takes over. Your thinking brain goes offline and all it knows to do is fight or flight. As long as your mind lets your brain go there, you will do the same thing you did when you were 15 or 25 or 60. But the beautiful thing is you don't have to end there.

Nan Deal: Scripture is clear that the flesh wants what the flesh wants, but we're called to walk in the Spirit, which takes a lot of self-control.

Jim Daly: It does. You guys have written this book together and probably the best way to demonstrate some of these things is by your own examples. Let's go to that moment when the bottom was dropping out of your marriage. Describe what was going on. What was the phrase or what was said that caught your attention?

Nan Deal: I think I showed up with suitcases and I said, "It's either you or me. I am done." I was just done with that cycle and that dance.

Jim Daly: Did you even understand at that time what was happening?

Nan Deal: I didn't understand what was happening, but our boys were pre-teens in 2007. I was tired of chasing after my husband who was chasing after so much in ministry and helping so many other people.

Here we are with these three young men, and it was just the same thing cycling over and over. I kept responding and he kept responding. We were 20-something years in and it was like, "It's either you or me, or get us some help." Since he's a therapist, I said, "Obviously you can't fix this, so get us some help to help fix this."

Jim Daly: Did you ever say to Ron, "Ron, you're looking at this stuff all day. Why can't you apply it in our relationship?"

Ron Deal: It's not that I haven't heard that. It is an odd thing because we sit here, we do the things we do, and we write the books we write. But even for us, being steeped in the information, we still struggle with the things that were defined at the opening.

It's not like a relationship is black or white, either all great or all bad. Most of us, and to that point in our marriage, were among those who had lots of good and lots of positive. There had been growth and change, and I had been working on some of my family of origin issues.

At the end of the day, there were still those dysregulated reactive moments that were really bad. It wasn't awful all the time; it was just that when it was bad, it was bad. When I was neglectful, I was neglectful.

Why I was neglectful is really important to the story because I had no idea. I just knew I was working hard and I felt called by God, which helps you justify the intensity of your work. I certainly didn't understand how abandoned and neglected she felt in those moments. Those were just the surface level experiences of what was going on with us.

Jim Daly: We're going to unpack those definitions of the dysfunctional things today and tomorrow. But in this moment, because it's so poignant and most of us as couples have been to a spot like this, how did you respond to Nan's declaration?

Ron Deal: Looking back, it was truly a Holy Spirit moment. He didn't blow up like he usually does and get defensive. He got down on his knees and said, "I'll do whatever it takes."

Nan Deal: It was more serious for some reason. I don't know what I said that night or how I said it, but you knew I meant business.

Ron Deal: The next day, I was deeply convicted. She started saying, "Get us some help," and I thought, "Okay, who do I trust?" There were a couple of people I called, but they were unavailable.

Nan Deal: You told me, "Terry has a two-year waiting list. I don't think he'll see us." I said, "Call him right now." It was 9:00 p.m. and we were in his office the next day. He lived in our community and I had a deep respect for Dr. Hargrave. That had to be God's intervention.

Jim Daly: So this is Dr. Terry Hargrave who taught you this modality of marriage. How did that first meeting go?

Nan Deal: I stood at the doorway and I said, "No psychobabble stuff right here between the two of you. I want you to land the plane with me. No funny business, and I want to be heard."

Jim Daly: I can see it in your face right now, Nan. You were serious.

Nan Deal: Terry said, "Okay, go ahead." I laid it all out there. Then the next thing was so beautiful. Terry nailed him. He nailed him to the wall and I got to watch it.

Jim Daly: What did Terry say?

Ron Deal: It was the beginning of a humbling moment. Nan had just talked for 20 minutes about all her pain. He looked at her with a simple little reflective statement, but he was talking to me. He said, "Well, Nan, what I think you're telling me is that the reason Ron threw you under the bus is because God told him to."

Jim Daly: Wow.

Ron Deal: I instantly knew God would never tell me to do that. I had been justifying things out of my own needs, and it was wrong. I felt a deep conviction. As they kept talking, I was just sitting in my little space going, "Something's wrong and I have to deal with me."

It was the beginning of a humbling process. It involved Nan as well, but Terry said something very poignant to me. He looked me straight in the eye and said, "If you will allow God to heal all of this brokenness in you, it will be the most beautiful thing that will come out of your life."

Jim Daly: What did you feel inside when he said that?

Nan Deal: I had no idea what he was saying at that moment because I had so much brokenness and I thought I could take care of it myself. I couldn't trust God with it; it was too much from family issues and the issues with Ron. I just sat there and didn't know what he was saying to me until years later.

Jim Daly: We have a marriage intensive called Hope Restored. One question on the intake side, when couples are hurting desperately like you were, is: "Do you believe God can work a miracle in your marriage?" If they say no, they don't get in because we've found that basic ounce of hope is required.

If you're in a place where you don't think even God can work a miracle, you don't have a chance. But if you can say, "God's the only one who can because my husband is such a jerk," that is still hope.

Ron, people listening might be skeptical of psychology. Dr. Hargrave introduced you to Restoration Therapy, which is rooted in 2 Corinthians 5. Connect that for the skeptic who thinks this is just psychobabble. Science is the study of God's creation. When we match these things, we can see the patterns that God has created.

Ron Deal: All truth is God's truth. We trust medical science truth every day when we go to the doctor. We believe there is a God behind all of that. I think the social sciences are very similar. Biblical truth is the ultimate truth and will always point us in the right direction.

Any other discoverable truth will line up with it. We've learned more about the distinctiveness between the mind and the brain. It adds layers to our understanding of the flesh. In Romans 7, Paul said, "Why do I keep on doing the things that I don't want to do?"

I'm so glad he wrote that. It's the human experience. Here is a guy who knows better but can't quite get to the living better. There's a gap there. My brain constantly wants to go back to what it knows. Those are old patterns that are neurologically deep-rooted.

Jim Daly: Give us a quick definition of that Restoration Therapy.

Ron Deal: Restoration Therapy integrates a number of things we've talked about on this program, like attachment theory and how we connect with other people.

Jim Daly: You learn this as a child mostly.

Ron Deal: Exactly, and it sets those styles in us that pour out of us as an adult. Dr. Hargrave's Restoration Therapy takes that know-how and merges it with New Testament theology around your old self and your new self.

It is my job as a follower of Jesus to take off my old self, the part of me that is not like Christ. I'm listening to the Spirit and trying to merge my mind and processes with the Spirit. There is a gap between my flesh and living by the Spirit.

This is in Galatians 5, Philippians 4, Colossians 3, Ephesians 4, and 2 Corinthians. Take off the old self and put on the new. Dr. Hargrave figured out a system that helps us navigate that space to become more like Christ. When I put on self-control during those moments when I'm triggered, it's transformative for the relationship.

John Fuller: Our guests today are Ron and Nan Deal. We're talking about their book *The Mindful Marriage: Create Your Best Relationship Through Understanding and Managing Yourself.* In the book, Ron, you use the analogy of finding a rattlesnake on a trail.

Ron Deal: When you see a rattlesnake, your midbrain kicks in. It's God's gift to us, this fight-or-flight reactivity that says "danger," so you back up to protect your kids. You don't have to pause and ponder; your brain takes care of you.

The bad news is that my brain doesn't know the difference between a rattlesnake and Nan's criticism. They both bite. All it knows is danger. In my case, I go into either blame, defensiveness, or control. I'm either going to control her, or I'm going to perform so she has no reason to be upset with me.

All of that is an effort to restore peace within me. It doesn't really make sense and it isn't helpful. Criticism leads me to defend myself and prove she's wrong, which never works. She gets more upset because I'm not listening, and we escalate. I'm not getting to peace; I'm getting to more conflict. If I don't learn how to manage that nanosecond between the rattlesnake and my response, things get worse.

Jim Daly: When you say that, it sounds ridiculous, but it is the mechanism. How do you help yourself distinguish the difference so you can slow down and take a step back emotionally?

Ron Deal: You have to understand what you normally do. One of the beautiful things about Dr. Hargrave's work is that you map out your triggers and pain points. That's called coping.

Once you see that, you need a mechanism to learn how to talk through creating a new response. All of that is to help you self-regulate your emotions. I have to put on self-control when I feel "rattlesnakes" in my marriage.

Most of us spend our entire lives trying to fix the spouse, thinking they are the rattlesnake. But it's my reactivity that I am in charge of, not hers. That is a game-changer. I was triggered yesterday coming here. This is Ron's seventh time here. In previous times, Ron would be in his head for a week before coming.

Nan Deal: Coming here is a trigger of pain and abandonment for me. I had to be very mindful on the plane. I felt something rising in me; I felt triggered. I had to stop and ask myself what I was feeling and what "old Nan" would normally do.

Old Nan would normally get really critical or take control of the situation. I had to stop, pray, and get grounded. I told the Holy Spirit I needed help. I knew that I could walk this out with humility and with the Spirit's help.

Jim Daly: You have to do this several times a day because of that triggering mechanism. Jean and I have a pattern where we'll go to dinner and have a pleasant time, and then she wants to bring up family stuff. It can end in a not-so-warm place. I'm sure I have my patterns too, but I'm less likely to see those than I am hers.

Ron Deal: We are super in tune with the speck in the other person's eye but rarely do we notice the log in our own. I want to compliment Nan. She chose to respond differently.

By the time we began to process things, she wasn't coming at me like a rattlesnake. She was gentle and soft. Because we've spent many years working through this pain together, I was quick to acknowledge that this is a difficult space for her.

I've been trying to manage myself and not be the control guy. I was chasing my identity in my work. Being able to relax puts me in a different place. We're both managing ourselves, and that allows us to bring a better "us" to one another.

Jim Daly: It's exciting for 20 and 30-somethings to be able to learn from older couples' mistakes. Get a copy of this great book, *The Mindful Marriage*.

It's our goal here at Focus to equip you and your spouse with the tools you need to have a healthy marriage. These resources cost money, so we depend on your partnership to help us reach more husbands and wives with this message.

According to our research, more than half a million marriages have benefited from Focus resources in the last 12 months. If I could ask you to consider a gift to the ministry, that is how it gets done. We change lives through the power of the Holy Spirit and the funding of friends of the ministry. Let's save more marriages together.

John Fuller: Donate and get your copy of the book at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or call 800-A-FAMILY. That's 800-232-6459. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.