Focus on the Family

John Fuller: This is John Fuller. Please remember to let us know how you're listening to these programs: on a podcast, app, or website.

Corey Pennypacker: Get them involved in Bible school. Get them involved in a youth group. Get them involved in church. Really foster those Christian friends, foster those Christian adults around them, and you've got a strong Christian that can light up the world.

John Fuller: Today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, we're going to hear about a rather unique ministry that is bringing the gospel of Christ to young children in public school. I'm John Fuller, and thanks for joining us.

Jim Daly: John, one of the most amazing things about Jesus was his love for children. There was something special between children and the Lord. I think part of it is children are just innocent. They tell the truth. "You're fat!" "You're skinny!" Kids just say the straightforward things.

I think the Lord saw that as little truth-tellers. Their hearts are pure. I think the Lord had a heart for children. In fact, in Matthew 18, he said, "Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

That has often made me think: how do children think that the Lord would make that statement? If you act like a child, the kingdom of heaven is yours. I think that's part of what I just said. Unfortunately, I think it's easy for parents to underestimate the value of their children and their ability to understand scripture and to apply biblical truth.

I think it starts at an early age. Our guest today is going to talk to us about how effective we can be as Christians helping our own children, but also children in public school, to recognize their spiritual bent.

John Fuller: It's really exciting to talk about this. I think a lot of people don't know what you can really do in a public school. So, we're very pleased to have Corey Pennypacker in the studio with us. She's the CEO of Bible to School, and they equip communities to provide free Bible classes to elementary school kids during their public school day.

She's recently come out with a great book called *Backpack Faith: Helping Your Child Live Confidently for Jesus in Public School*. Of course, we'll have more details at the website. Corey, welcome to Focus on the Family.

Corey Pennypacker: Thank you for having me.

Jim Daly: Let me ask you: that's legal?

Corey Pennypacker: Yes, that is legal. It's called something called a released-time court ruling. It's federal court rulings that say you can release kids from school, public school, for a religious class of their choice. It could be Muslim, could be Jewish. We are Bible to School. With my organization, we are the non-denominational Christian arm of that.

The Bible used to be a reader in school way back when, and they took it out in the early 1900s. These released-time rulings happened, and they said, "Kids aren't going to be getting religion anymore in school, so let's give that to the community and they can release them."

There's three things that make it legal federally all across the country. That is, they have to be off-site, they have to be parental permission, and they can't cost the taxpayer any money. So, those three things, when that happens, you can do that in all 50 states.

Jim Daly: That's terrific. Again, that's "opt-in," as we would say, so the parents have to allow their kids to go do this. But all 50 states are required by law to do this. What's the limiting factor? Why isn't every school doing this?

Corey Pennypacker: I think it's a lot why I'm here today. People don't know about it. I appreciate you having me on because you can do this. My organization has been doing this for over 45 years. There's other organizations around the country that have been doing it for 80 years.

The US Supreme Court—people ask me a lot if that was ever challenged—in 1952, it was, and the US Supreme Court upheld it. So, it definitely is something you can do. Again, it has to be off-site, parental permission, and no tax dollars.

Jim Daly: So, the ACLU hasn't been able to get that out of school in terms of choices by the parents.

Corey Pennypacker: Right, it's something the parents want.

Jim Daly: Let me ask you this just to get this out of the way because it's intriguing to me. I've thought, maybe after I retire from Focus, I'll get one started in Colorado Springs. I want to make sure everybody knows that's something you can do in your community. There's so many things like this if we just did them; every school would have that option if Christians stepped up and said, "I'll start that volunteer program and I'll go do that." How did that start for you? You started as a volunteer at Bible to School.

Corey Pennypacker: I did. I started as a volunteer. First of all, I was a children's ministry director. When I left there, a friend asked me and said, "You've got to come see this." I went and I was like, "Wait a minute. I used to wait for kids to come to me, and now I get to go to the kids where they are in the middle of the week, in the middle of a school day, and it's no muss, no fuss, and the kids come."

What's amazing is that half the kids have no church home. I saw that with a little boy, Gabriel. He grabbed my heart. He was a little blonde, blue-eyed little boy, curly hair. He lived with his grandmother. He was in third grade and he was in my small group. He came week after week. He did not know anything about God before he came.

One day, he accepted Christ as his Savior in the large group part. He comes barreling back to my table with a big smile. I said, "Gabriel, tell me about that. You accepted Christ as your Savior?" He said, "Yes, I did." I said, "Tell me about that." He said something I will never forget. I get choked up every time I talk about it. He said, "I've always wanted to know how to get to heaven, but no one's ever told me."

Jim Daly: And he's in third grade. There's some 70, 80-year-olds that ask that question.

Corey Pennypacker: It is a definite. They don't know. Probably every week in Bible to School, kids say, "Who's God? I've never heard of him," or they think Jesus is a swear word. 70% of the country doesn't go to church, so these kids aren't hearing it anywhere. We think of Little House on the Prairie and all those shows that used to have it all in there; they're definitely not seeing it anywhere.

Jim Daly: Again, Corey, I'm going to say that's our fault as the church because, again, the law allows us to do this, but not every school has this. That's a shame. We should be engaged. There should be one or more—eight, ten—people here in Colorado Springs who are willing to do this for every school. This is second to fifth grade, right?

Corey Pennypacker: Yes.

Jim Daly: What does that weekly—it's a weekly meeting—just talk us through what the typical week might look like.

Corey Pennypacker: The volunteers get together. They set up the room near a church. It's a church off-site within a 10-minute walk or a 10-minute drive of the school. Then they go and get the kids. It's usually over lunch and recess. They bring their lunch with them.

We use the time right away. Small group leaders are like, "How was your week? We were praying for your grandmother last week. How was she doing?" They walk or they bus there, and then at the church, they're in small group tables. They come in. They have all their papers and their crinkly papers and all that. Then they have a large group lesson.

It's 20 minutes of a large group lesson and there's a think-about-it question. If it's Jonah and the whale, your think-about-it question is: how does God give second chances? They teach Jonah. It's all hands-on. They get inside of a belly of a whale. We do hands-on things like VBS—science experiments, acting out the Bible story.

Then they go into small group and they say, "How did God give Jonah second chances?" Then they say, "Well, how does God give you second chances?" They do this and then we go into a worship time. So, you have large group, small group, worship time. That think-about-it question, that small group, is very unique to Bible to School. In the country, there's really not a lot of programs that do it this way.

I really believe that the gospel is transmitted through relationships. You build those relationships every week. These kids have a safe place to ask spiritual questions. That's what you were saying. That's what the church is about. We know the kids want to know three things: where did I come from, what's my purpose, and what happens after I die?

Jim Daly: I think every human being asks those three questions and probably more. In that context, the overall program is about an hour then?

Corey Pennypacker: An hour. One hour. And that includes travel time.

Jim Daly: Back and forth, and hopefully it's a church that's nearby the school, obviously. In that context, second to fifth grade, why is that the critical stage in what you concentrate on?

Corey Pennypacker: Barna says this: 63% of all Christians come to know Christ before the age of 14. It's like a 4 to 14 window, they say. That's when their actual brains are developing their morals and values. You've got clay that you're working with. They are wide open. You were just talking about kids say everything on their mind. Well, they are really processing this and learning this. It is the time for kids to accept Christ as their Savior.

We have one little boy. He said, "I never knew God made me." He just couldn't even believe that there was somebody who made him and created him. He just blossomed and lit up when they find out that God made them, God loves them, God has a plan and purpose for their life, and Jesus Christ died for their sins and they can be in heaven with him someday.

These are the things that kids need to know. We were talking about depression and all that. There's a study called Hardwired to Connect. Dartmouth University did this study—it's a secular university that did this—and they said that kids are hardwired to connect socially and spiritually. That really helps them bring down that stress, bring down that anxiety.

Kids are mind, body, and soul. When you don't really get to process those spiritual questions, have a safe place to process that, then that really ups the anxiety. They even said that if kids are in a religious program like Bible to School is, then they do better in school.

Jim Daly: We do something called Bring Your Bible to School, and it's the first Thursday of every October. I think a couple of years ago, we had over a million kids participate, which is terrific. We want to see that number continue to grow. Certainly, it's one day out of the school year. We want kids to do this every day, and that's where you really connect and dovetail quite nicely.

But we do the same thing working with Alliance Defending Freedom. They created a one-sheet that kids can download or parents working with the kids can download to put in their backpack that day. And when it happens—we get the reports—a school administrator or a teacher says, "You're not allowed to have that Bible on your table," and they'll pull out the ADF one-page legal sheet.

The way I've heard this go almost every time is they read it—the adult administrator or teacher reads it—and goes, "Oh, okay. Yeah, it seems like you have the legal right to do that." It's just that one day and it's during recess or free time that those wonderful children sit and read the book of John with their friends.

We just need to do it as Christians, as Christian parents. Encourage your kids to join and people can go to the website and do that.

John Fuller: The details are at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast or give us a call if you'd like, 800-A-FAMILY. We'd be happy for you to learn more about Bring Your Bible to School Day. Of course, we're enjoying the conversation so much because of that dovetail you mentioned, Jim, with Corey Pennypacker about her organization, Bible to School. They're active, I think, in four states.

Jim Daly: We need all 50 states going.

Corey Pennypacker: I agree. Absolutely agree. That's my goal.

Jim Daly: We're going to have details about how you can do that and Corey's organization as well at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Stories are so grabbing. You had a little girl who brought a notebook, and she was judiciously taking notes, and you talked to her. What happened with that little girl?

Corey Pennypacker: Our program is hands-on and we don't actually have notebooks. But she brought hers and she was writing and writing and writing. Then she went to her small group and she was writing and writing and writing. Finally, her small group leader said, "What are you doing?" She said, "My dad doesn't know who God is and I want to be able to tell him."

I love how these kids just want to know about God. They want to tell everybody they know about God. They bring their friends. 50% to 60% of the kids that come to Bible to School have no church home. I really believe that parents want good things for their kids even if they're Christian or not Christian. Dr. Dobson years ago said that, and I really grabbed onto that. This is a good thing they see, and they sign them up.

That's why we are hitting a target market that nobody else is hitting. These kids are not going to go to a church, but we can link them to a church. We had a parent survey done a couple of years ago and about 15% of our parents started going to church after they went to Bible to School. This year, I'm proud to announce that, only God, 18% of the parents. So, it's going up. I just really believe that this kind of program is an on-ramp to church attendance.

Jim Daly: Again, I want to say this because it's so obvious, and maybe somebody's just jumped into the conversation. Following the Lord brings incredible fruit: love, joy, peace, goodness, kindness, mercy, long-suffering, patience. These are wonderful attributes and those that fight against that—it's ridiculous. Those that enjoy the benefits of those fruit, it brings peace, God's shalom, to the home.

John Fuller: Corey, going back to family impact, you had indicated the story of Johnny really stood out because here's a boy who goes home and brings light and truth to his own family. Share that with us.

Corey Pennypacker: His mother told us that she was at the kitchen counter washing dishes and she was—her home was struggling—and she looked up and she said, "God, help me." Just then, Johnny came right behind her and said, "Mom, we need to go to church. We need Jesus."

She saw that as God's answer. They went to church. Not only did she reconnect to the Lord herself, the rest of her family, most of all of them got saved. She said he was relentless about going to church. "We need to go to church!" He's a great kid.

Jim Daly: My own wife, Jean, in second grade, ironically, kind of the same zone that you concentrate on, second graders to fifth graders. She was a second grader in Southern Cal. She went to released time and accepted Christ at that little event and never gave up. She was with the Lord and has been with the Lord ever since, which is phenomenal.

That's really the goal: to help these children, especially in today's culture, to have something that's eternal, something they can hold onto, and again, something that brings such positive benefits into their lives.

Earlier, I mentioned some of the problems in schools: the political and cultural agendas, etc., that are causing a lot of Christians to pull out of public schools. When I think about it for myself, the parents that are saying, "What should we do?" with Johnny, Maria, whomever, they're kindergarteners or third graders, and they're concerned about the ideological push. More Christians are pulling their children out of school. What is your observation of that? Everybody has to make that decision for themselves because you don't want to gamble with your children's hearts. But how do you see things?

Corey Pennypacker: I often tell my daughters-in-law this: they are the parents and they are the experts on their kids on whether they should be homeschooled or whether to go to Christian school or whether to go to public school. But in reality, 87% of all Christian parents send their kids to public school.

I get asked this question a lot: what do you do? How do you protect your kids from harmful cultural elements in the school system, in the public school system? I answer that question and I kind of flip it. I say, "How can you prepare your children?" because preparation is protection.

Things are going to come down the pike. You always should get on the school board. You always should be involved, know what your kids are learning. You should be involved. I was a very involved—my husband and I were very involved—public school parents.

But if you're going to put them in public school, be involved and prepare them with the word of God. John 1:5, "The light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it." So, that whole preparation part of keeping the word of God in front of them, get them involved in Bible to School, get them involved in a youth group, get them involved in church. Really foster those Christian friends, foster those Christian adults around them, and you've got a strong Christian that can light up the world.

John Fuller: As Corey's talking, I'm thinking about parents who might feel ill-equipped to help their children be a light because they're overwhelmed. We've tried to address that in the documentary and all the follow-up materials with *Truth Rising*.

Jim Daly: *Truth Rising* is a terrific documentary. It's free. You can go to the Focus website and watch it. It's about 90 minutes. In addition to that, there's a four-part study done by John Stonestreet at Colson Center, which is really helpful to address these core issues.

The key thing in *Truth Rising*, what we're trying to do, is encourage Christians to engage. That's the change. That's where we highlight four or five courageous people like Jack Phillips, who was the baker up in Denver that was taken to task, taken to court, taken to the Supreme Court, to prove his right as a Christian to create artwork that fit with his faith.

Also, Chloe Cole, a de-transitioner who is suing Blue Cross because she never received a negative statement from a doctor or psychiatrist that doing the sexual transition would be harmful to her. Now they're scrambling and they're backing up, both in Europe and the United States, to get out of doing that—the minor treatment of gender dysphoria. That's a great thing that hospitals and others are beginning to not do that.

But the point of the documentary is to encourage Christians to engage the culture and to be courageous. What you're doing is kind of similar to that. That's something, again, that we could all do in our towns, our cities, our little spots that we're in. We can go to the elementary school and create a volunteer program and get kids introduced to scripture.

That's what's so exciting about this. Your story could have fit in *Truth Rising* as someone who was busy, had their own lives, doing their own thing, their kids were grown, and you're done. And yet you said, "No, I'm going to engage these second and to fifth graders and show them the gospel."

Corey Pennypacker: And we're going to equip people to do this all over the country.

Jim Daly: How do we do that? How can somebody listening today say, "Okay, I want to do this. I'm in Colorado, I'm in California, I'm wherever." How would they go about doing this?

Corey Pennypacker: They go to our website, bible2school.com. That's bible, the number two, school.com. We will help them start a program. We will help them—there's a four-step process.

Jim Daly: So, it's like in-a-box kind of thing? You can help us do that?

Corey Pennypacker: Yes. Yes, we have something called a membership toolbox. You become a member of Bible to School. It's a four-step process to become a member. Mainly what we do is help you build a team. We first help you build a team to become a member, and that team is going to help you find the location. It's going to help you with possible transportation.

Those people are leaders in your community; they're going to help you with recruiting volunteers, like pastors. You're going to have business leaders that are going to help you with funding. We really make it as easy as possible for you. Get that team together and then we have all the tools for you on that toolbox.

We have over 300 tools. We have all the curriculum you need. We have live coaching for you. I wish I had live coaching when I started! We have a website for them as well. Anything you call a plug-and-play, you can do this, and we make it as easy as possible for that to happen.

Jim Daly: For pastors, I know we have many pastors who listen, and we have an outreach for pastors as well to help their families, to help their congregations. What's the benefit for pastors engaging Bible to School?

Corey Pennypacker: When you ever talk about people coming to your church, it's always, "Well, somebody invited me. Somebody invited me." Let me tell you, when you get involved in Bible to School, you invite those children to your church. They're like, "Oh, yeah. I'll come."

There's VBS on-ramp there. Just come and be in our church. It gets the kids in the church, first of all. Second of all, it exposes them to other Christians that say, "Come visit me in my church." That's how kids get to church. That's how it works. That's why I call it an on-ramp to church attendance.

Again, you're learning how to connect with the community. When a church partners with a local school, people pay attention. They really make a difference in the community. If you want to make a difference in your community, you go to the public school mission field, and that's right in your hometown.

John Fuller: I'm really pleased, Jim, that our church had an opportunity through a variety of circumstances to meet at a local school. Our team—there was a core team of people that really engaged with the school. They made a job of reaching out to the school administrators and the faculty and just supporting and trying to be a light for Christ in that way. You're encouraging all of us to look for opportunities to do that.

Corey Pennypacker: The other thing is that churches work together. We're non-denominational. So, it's so cool: the body of Christ in all denominations working together for the kids.

Jim Daly: Let's end with Colson's story. You had a student, Colson. What happened with his little observation about Bible to School?

Corey Pennypacker: Colson went through our program and actually even led his friends to Christ. He got into middle school and we interviewed him. He started his own Bible hour in his middle school. He was an entrepreneur! He was amazing.

He had almost 90 kids. It was a worship service. He got everybody involved. He said to me, "I always thought before Bible to School—I didn't know—I always thought school was school and church was church. I realized I can live my faith all week long."

Jim Daly: Corey, and that's right at the heart of the message. I think the culture that doesn't believe want to silence us into no action. What you believe is private, do it at home, just don't bring it into the public square. They're happy with that. But that's not what the Lord says. He says, "Take the gospel to every end of the earth," right? Every corner.

That's our charge. We need to be careful not to take the bait of being comfortable by being silent. You do what you do and I'll do what I do. That's what's so great about Colson and that story. Let's take this into public school. It's already gone through the courts. It's completely legal. Let's help kids better understand how they were made and in whose image they were made. Isn't that a great opportunity?

Corey Pennypacker: Yes. And you can be on the front lines of watching kids' lives change and their families' lives change. It's a beautiful thing.

Jim Daly: Well said. Bible to School: get engaged! If your community—and there's only four states that they're in right now—so if you're in a state that's not doing it, a city that's not doing it, do it! Nobody else is going to step up. So, why not get involved?

Let's see all 50 states have a program like this where you can take kids off the property of the school, take them to a local church hopefully, spend an hour with them talking about the Lord, and then get those little tykes back to school.

I think it's wonderful. What a wonderful way for us who are older, already done the parenting thing, to engage the culture and help it right itself because of spiritual awakening. That's the way to do it. So, get in touch with us. Corey, thanks for bringing us.

Corey Pennypacker: It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

John Fuller: It's incredible what God is able to do when we are faithful to serve him and share his goodness message, especially with children. Corey's organization, Bible to School, is really remarkable as an outreach. We're going to have all the details available at our website.

Also, let me say, if you're interested in learning more about how you can join the fight for our children in public schools, for a gift of any amount, we're offering Corey's brand-new book, *Backpack Faith: Helping Your Child Live Confidently for Jesus in Public School*.

This is essential reading for parents and grandparents who want to equip their children and grandchildren to be salt and light in a dark culture. This book helps you to do that as a parent or loved one. And when you get the book from Focus on the Family, your dollars aren't going to Amazon or to pay shareholders. It's all going back to equip parents, help marriages, and families across the country.

In the past year alone, we've equipped 1.8 million families to thrive in Christ. I'm very proud of that. And we've helped 173,000 people make decisions for Christ. That's generational impact for the kingdom of God and we're excited to have you partner with us as we equip more families every single day.

So, join the support team today when you call 800-A-FAMILY or donate and get Corey's book, *Backpack Faith*, and find other help for your family at our website. And that's focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Coming up next time: practical help for wives and moms who are feeling a bit overwhelmed.

Guest (Female): Somewhere in there, I feel my anxiety level dialing down and I get to this point that feels so unfamiliar. I go, "Oh, that's what peace feels like. Oh, this is what freedom feels like." And I realize a lot of this, not all of it, but a lot of this overwhelm I have done to myself. I have brought on myself.

John Fuller: Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Next year marks 50 years of ministry for Focus on the Family, encouraging families and helping them thrive in Christ every day. How has God used Focus on the Family to strengthen your marriage, guide you in your parenting, restore a relationship, or bring hope in a different season? We want to hear your story. Call now and share how Focus on the Family has made an impact in your life. You'll find the link at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.