Focus on the Family

Guest (Male): I feel like I blinked and now my newborn can walk and talk. Kids change so fast, don't they? It can be hard to keep up with each new phase. That's why I love Focus on the Family's Age and Stage newsletter.

Each week, I get an email with resources curated by experts. They're full of biblically and clinically-based tips tailored to your child, no matter what age they are. You can sign up today at MyKidsAge.com. That's MyKidsAge.com.

John Fuller: The following program is sponsored by Focus on the Family and is supported by the prayers and financial gifts of wonderful friends like you. This is John Fuller and please remember to let us know how you're listening to these programs on a podcast, app, or website.

Dr. John Townsend: Help the child learn that life is not about avoiding pain. Because sometimes our culture teaches them it's about being happy and avoiding all kinds of pain and they stay immature. That actually embrace it, make it your ally.

John Fuller: That's Dr. John Townsend and he's back with us again today on Focus on the Family talking about how you can implement healthy boundaries with your children. Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller.

Jim Daly: Yesterday, we talked about teaching kids to accept the consequences of their actions. I think most parents struggle with that. Then we covered the strengths and weaknesses of gentle parenting and really defining boundaries and how we get onto a healthy, regular, reinforced boundary approach to really help your child to mature and grow in the healthiest way possible.

Today we're going to talk about some key concepts, including the steps to helping kids develop their own sense of right and wrong, which, as we talked about yesterday with Dr. Townsend, "no" is actually a good thing for a child to learn. It starts to develop their identity and you want that child in later teen years to be able to say no. So that's a good thing. It's not an error if they're pushing back a little. But how do we do this constructively? It's going to be a great conversation. I hope if you missed last time, get the Focus on the Family app so you can hear it and hear all the inventory here at Focus on the Family.

John Fuller: Yeah, that app is available and free to you and we hope you'll get that. Dr. Townsend has co-written a book with Dr. Henry Cloud. It really is a classic. It's called *Boundaries with Kids: How Healthy Choices Grow Healthy Children*. We'll encourage you to get a copy when you contact us. John, welcome back to the program.

Dr. John Townsend: Thanks guys. You know, I was thinking when you read that part about Henry and I writing this, John, it came about because all the boundaries work was working and then people came along and parents said, we'd like to help our kids with this boundary thing before they have the train wrecks and the pain that we had in our adult lives. So can you write at a more preventive level? But thank you to the parents who were asking for that.

Jim Daly: That's so good. Let me start here. What does it look like for kids to learn to respect the boundaries of others?

Dr. John Townsend: Well, they don't start off that way because their life is all about me. It's about me and mom and dad exist to serve me and that's okay for a while, but sooner or later you're going to be in a world of relationships and they have to learn this.

There are some relational "nos" they have to learn. One is as young children, don't hurt someone. I mean, it's fundamental. Don't trespass on someone's things. And especially, don't punish another kid's no. If a kid disagrees, don't make them bad because they've got to have a choice. How do you do that? Well, you have empathy for it because it's hard for them, but you correct them and you give them consequences for their disrespect. Even if they don't like it, they have to learn that mom and dad don't like disrespect of themselves and other people.

But here's another really important part. They'll learn to respect other people's boundaries when you establish your own separateness as a parent. For example, the child wants to do something and you've already played with them for a long time and now you want to, I don't know, do a crossword puzzle. The child comes up and says, play with me. Sometimes the parent is tempted to say, well, I've got to be a good parent even though I've spent two hours here, I'll put my puzzle aside.

The best thing to say is, no, I'm going to do a puzzle right now. That's what I need to do, but you can play. And all of a sudden the child's in a world where, oh, you're not always available when I always need you. I've got to respect that. So insist on your own separateness as well as the child's.

Jim Daly: You know, we've had Dr. Ken Wilgus here. You might know Dr. Ken Wilgus, great guy. He wrote the funniest book title, which was *Feeding the Mouth That Bites You: How to Emancipate Your Teenagers Into Adulthood*. It really is in this area that I'm about to ask you and that's giving kids some age-appropriate freedom to help them separate themselves in a healthy way from the parent.

For example, he would say at some point you let your 13, 14-year-old own their room. And his rules were, you just don't have nothing can be stinky or rotting. Hopefully, we've taught you how to keep your room nicely, but that's it. And you hand it over and you don't take it back. Is that a good thing?

Dr. John Townsend: That is so wise. It comes down to what in the book we call the law of sowing and reaping. Think about how we all learn as humans, not just kids. We learn when we reap what we sow.

Look at freedom. How can they sow when they don't have a choice? You've got to have freedom to make a bad choice to sow so you can reap. They have to be free to sow positive things or negative things, otherwise there's no reaping and no learning and no growing.

Jim Daly: That's so amazing. Let's talk about unconditional love. You know, this one I have this banter in my own head when you're saying, I love you, I love you so much, you're never going to know how much I love you. Put that down! If you don't respond... and it totally communicates my love is conditional.

I think parents we have this inner struggle going. Am I loving this child unconditionally or am I putting all the conditions on it because they're not performing or behaving the way that I want them to? Speak to that dilemma and then what is healthy, real, unconditional love look like?

Dr. John Townsend: Yeah, let's start with what that really is. Think about God. He doesn't, I don't know about you guys, but He hasn't answered all my prayers this year. But I know He loves me all the time.

And so it doesn't some people think that unconditional love is always feeling good feelings toward and always gratifying the child. I feel good toward you, I'm always gratified. That's love. Well, that can be, hey, you can make a drug addict out of that.

So love is really a stance of, I'm for you and I want your best. If we can change it from the feeling and gratification to it's a mental state that makes me want to do the very best for you, even if it's uncomfortable, that's unconditional love. I don't have to feel good feelings when my kid's screaming and yelling and causing a mess, but I shouldn't be harsh. I should be direct, but I know I'm doing the surgery that's needed right now.

Jim Daly: So unconditional love is, hey, I didn't kick you out of the house.

Dr. John Townsend: And hey might be, I did kick you out of the house too early instead of when you should.

Jim Daly: Yeah, I mean, that's the whole balancing feature of parenting. Let's hear a clip like we did yesterday. Let's hear a clip from a dad on setting boundaries.

Guest (Male): My two sons are 24 and 26 years old and they don't really help out with the bills or rent and what little money they make is spent on drugs. My younger son is trying, but he sees his older brother getting away with stuff and he just follows in his footsteps. I don't believe it.

Dr. John Townsend: My heart just sank to hear this man. Whoever you are, man, I'm so sorry. I'll say a prayer.

Let me provide a sort of a path here for this gentleman who's kind of living a nightmare. You're going to need support. Whatever's gone on in the house with two grown young men who are doing drugs and not spending it on the right things, you're going to need to get external support. Don't do this on your own. Get a good church, a good Christian therapist, get people around you who have the same values because for you to change this is going to take some time.

Now, number one, I think you're going to have to get once you've got the support systems in, you're going to have to insist on a drug-free home. I mean, that's just you can't compromise on that. And there are going to have to be some rules that you'll probably need help with in constructing such as, here's what will keep you in the house for as long as until you're ready to launch, because they do need to launch sooner or later, and here's what won't.

There are good counselors and therapists that can help you make a plan. You're going to need to chart a path for autonomy that your sons are not ready for. So I want you to start as Stephen Covey said, with the end in mind. The end in mind is that they're out of your house. They can't be happy with that or fulfilled with that. Out of the house, autonomous, free, working somewhere, drug-free.

And so what does it take to create that? Get the long run in mind. That means some of them may need a coach or a counselor. They also may need to know some house rules that you're going to enforce and they may need to have the consequences of, you can stay here if you don't do drugs. If you can't, I'm sorry, you're going to be out of the house.

I've had to do that with many parents who said, well, what will they do? Well, they'll probably sleep on a friend's couch for a while and eat pizza and then find out, gosh, it's better being at home like the prodigal son. But you're going to have to have the rules and enforce those and at all the same time, letting these young men know that you love them even though they will say that you hate them. You're providing, you're providing experts, you're providing structure, you're providing a way and a path for autonomy and leaving and cleaving that they don't possess.

Jim Daly: John, you encourage parents in the book to consider pain a good experience. It can be a good experience for them to know the bottom. We all say this in the Christian community, you know, it's important for your children to go to a valley if that's where God needs to meet them. You know, one of the most I think challenging questions I ever received is, would you be willing to let God take your kids through that valley?

Dr. John Townsend: I think that's the hardest prayer any of us can pray, but it's a good one.

Jim Daly: Yeah, and tell us why. Why is pain helpful?

Dr. John Townsend: Well, let's start with Hebrews 12 where it says all discipline seems painful, but it brings the peaceable fruit of righteousness. God's very clear and He's the being that created neuroscience and parenting in the first place and we want our kids to live a life of being right, living the right life. And so pain teaches us things.

Now, we're not talking about the wrong kind of pain. We don't want to damage the child. We don't mind them being uncomfortable. Discomfort is very different than damage. So evaluate if it's the right kind of pain that will help them mature and thrive.

But yes, help the child learn that life is not about avoiding pain. Because sometimes our culture teaches them it's about being happy and avoiding all kinds of pain and they stay immature. Actually embrace it, make it your ally. Learn to deal with a difficult teacher. Learn to deal with that bully. Learn to deal with a sport you haven't done or a course you haven't taken and look what happens on the other end when you succeeded. And so all of a sudden they realize pain is my friend, it's my ally.

Jim Daly: Yeah, but it's again hard to stand there as a parent and allow that to happen, but you've got to do your best to let God do His best, right?

Dr. John Townsend: And that's when we need community. Those parents who are like-minded and you can call them and say, I'm so sad my child's crying and they're discouraged, but it was a legitimate boundary and a consequence and the parent goes, stick with it, stick with it. And if you tell your child, stick with it, that child takes that in and when they're 30, they'll go, I've got a hard job, I've got a hard marriage, I can stick with it because I've done it before. It's the internalization.

John Fuller: And if you're that parent and you're thinking, this is just too difficult, I don't have the community, I don't know where to turn. Dr. Townsend mentioned the importance of a Christian counselor. We have caring Christian counselors here at Focus on the Family. So if this is touching a nerve for you, please call us. 800-A-FAMILY. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and Dr. John Townsend has co-written a book called *Boundaries with Kids: How Healthy Choices Grow Healthy Children*. There's so much in here. It covers pretty much every age and stage and we'll encourage you to get a copy of the book from us. You can call that number 800-A-FAMILY or stop by our website and that's FocusOnTheFamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: John, let's play another question about boundaries.

Guest (Female): Hi, I have a question. My son is very energetic, likes to be active, likes play sports and all these things, but I find it hard to get him to actually sit and listen. He's six years old and I was wondering what would be a good way to teach him the importance of listening and having good listening skills?

Dr. John Townsend: Yeah, and you're addressing this at the right time, too. Six is a great age to learn that. And at six, especially boys, a lot of times girls too, you're interested more in your activities and you're interested more in what you have to say and not what anybody else has to say.

So I would address this very directly with your son just like any parent does. Here's how you clean your room. Here's how you set up for the table. And I would say, I want to help you learn to listen because this is something that I think you're kind of challenged in. This is going to be very important to you. So you just tell him, this is how you have great relationships. This is how people like you better. This is where you learn things.

Now, sometimes a six-year-old who's really into activities will just blow that off, but it's in there somewhere because you have to give them the framework first of why this is important. And the second thing is you give them examples and say, when I was trying to tell you something about X, a movie we saw or something we did at church and you kept changing the subject and talking about yourself, it didn't work between you and me and you and I weren't that close and all of a sudden they realize, oh, this affects my relationships.

And then sometimes a child will say, well, what do I do? Well, teach them the basics of asking questions. Stop talking and then say, how are you doing? What did you think? How was your day? And teach them those basic questions that everybody's got to learn. Three or four of them they can get somebody to open up and then have them practice that with their friends and all of a sudden now they're the captain of the team.

Now, if none of that is working, that's when you have to say, in our home, we're going to need to have you talk and then listen and talk and then listen. And if you can't stop talking, sweetheart, I don't know what we're going to do but there might be a consequence for that. Because you talking all the time and not listening is kind of hard on the whole family. It's not good for you. But hopefully, it'll be done before you have to go to the consequence. But I've had parents have to do that, say it's your turn to stop talking and start listening and make that a norm so they do it in the real life.

Jim Daly: It's so funny, I'm laughing because when I was a child, my mom's best friend and we considered her family part of our family, my mom's best friend Penny. I think I was just talking way too much. I having knew that I would be sitting behind a microphone someday. But she said to me, she just turned to me and she said, Jimmy, you've got diarrhea of the mouth. Talk about making an impact on a child. I still remember that. I know where I was standing when she said it.

And you know, my immediate response, I just went quiet because I thought, oh, I didn't know. But I mean, to this day, I think it centered me on being able to be quieter so I can actually hear the person across the table from me. Isn't that something? But somebody might look at that and say that was harsh. But it did have a positive impact in my life.

Dr. John Townsend: Let's change that word from harsh to direct. Yeah, okay. Because sometimes in our culture, it's sort of like if someone's direct, they're mean and harsh. Well, it feels harsh because you've never heard that before. But it's just direct by a caring, warm person. Let's baptize the word direct.

Jim Daly: That's a great point because our culture's all about tolerance of everything, even parenting. Like you've got to tolerate your child's behavior. No, you don't. So I don't know, I think back on it now, I laugh because who would have known I would end up in communication as a profession? It's richly ironic, isn't it?

Anyway, so let me ask you this. In the book, you describe three realities. Let's spend a little time here and speak to the three realities of setting boundaries.

Dr. John Townsend: Yeah, it's very simple and sometimes since parenting is so complicated, we get into details that we don't need to get to. But if you can remember these three things, it'll really help.

Is first, there's a problem and your child's not perfect. Your child's not perfect. And it's just the way it is. And if you can say that and realize, you know, that we're born into the world in an imperfect world and my child needs training and my child needs growth, you're okay. That makes us all relax to know my child's not perfect. They're just a work in progress.

But next, it's plug in. You need relationships. It takes a church, it takes families, it takes neighbors. Don't do this alone. Not even with a great spouse. We need other people's perspective and strength.

And then the big one, I think, besides that, is grow in your own character, in your own boundaries. When you have your own boundaries, your child's living around a grownup who can make hard decisions, do the right thing, and succeed, and they see that and they want that.

Jim Daly: Connecting that one to the first one, I think one of the things I think I did well was to show my boys that I'm not perfect. We know the child isn't perfect. And sometimes in parenting, we can reinforce that all day long. But what helps, I think what really helped for my sons, was when I could confess that I'm not perfect. I made that, I blew that.

I remember one time saying to Trent after I think I disciplined him for something and it was probably too much energy. And I said to him, I'm sorry, I really reacted to that in a way that I shouldn't have reacted. And he had the biggest smile on his face. He was probably eight and I said, why are you smiling like that? He goes, I didn't know parents had to apologize. What a light bulb moment! And it was a good thing. And I think maybe, you know, you see these lessons that you lay down for your kids, that was probably one of the brighter lessons that I was able to get to.

Dr. John Townsend: Well, the funny thing about that, Jim, is we think it's a big deal that we let them know we're not perfect. They know. They've been watching. They're just waiting to see, are they going to ever admit what I already know? And that in what you did, I love that rupture and repair dynamic of once you know you've screwed up, how fast can you repair it? And kids do get that eight-year-old smile like, okay, things are okay. Don't wait. Do it quickly.

Jim Daly: Yeah, that's so good. In that context of the third of the realities, there's a concept in there you said: time does not heal all. We tend to use that so freely in our culture. Time will take care of it. We lose a loved one, time will heal that. It's partially true, isn't it? It may not be all the way true, but...

Dr. John Townsend: We'll look at it like this. When you go to your doctor with a bacterial infection, does she say, well, time's going to heal this? No. She says, it's going to take time. Time is a necessary but insufficient condition. You must have it, it's not enough. Because the two other elements: it's time plus grace plus truth will do anything.

Grace is the love of God, the love of other people, the support, and information, truth, principles, structures, these sorts of things. Time will do it as long as there's grace and truth involved.

Jim Daly: You know, for our parents that are in the middle of work and life and orchestrating all of that and let's not talk about the in-laws and Christmas and Thanksgiving and all the stuff that happens throughout the year. You want me to do what, Dr. Townsend? Teach boundaries to our kids? Make the pitch for why doing this actually saves you so much work later.

Dr. John Townsend: There's a why here. And the why here is because it's not now, it's about the future. The family is an oven where you take this little bitty being and then you take them through all these experiences and these growth things and then they come out hopefully a functional loving adult. They can love, they can work, their life is in place. And that's what our job is about.

And so if you can tolerate the tough thing about the attitude problem now or the disrespect or the chaos and think, I'm making something later that will be good for her and good for me. The parent's job is to bring the future into the present and say we're doing these things because we want you to be a strong person, a happy person, and in control person.

Jim Daly: You know, one of the things, and we've talked with Dr. Kevin Leman and you know him well as a friend, the birth order, personality, temperament must play into this a bit. And we saw that in our own children. You think you're the same family, but each child is unique. And so we had the strong-willed child and then we had the more passive child.

And you do have to, I would think, and maybe you disagree with this, I would think you have to kind of adjust these approaches of boundaries to the temperament of your child a bit. Not in the concreteness of them, but maybe in the way they're delivered or how would you answer that question about how I deal with the type of child I have?

Dr. John Townsend: Absolutely, I totally agree with that. The basics are the basics. There are house rules that we will always keep and we will stick to. But you have to customize it according to the temperament of the child which was just built in and baked in from the DNA. And when you do that, everybody wins. So it's the communication style, it's how direct you are, it's how much you listen, as long as the basics are working and you're doing it their way, everything works.

Jim Daly: I think it's so good. Because again, with my oldest son, it's very linear for him, very logic-driven. He just wants to know. I remember saying to him once he had his license, we had a midnight curfew and I said to him, be home by midnight. And he said, why? And I said, one, it's the time limit and two, nothing good happens with teenagers after midnight. And he said to me, do you have empirical data to support that? That was exactly what he said.

And my other son who's much more feeler, I had the same chat with him two years later and he said, okay dad, I think you're right. Very different responses, right? But that's the point, that you have to know your child which takes a bit of work and then apply those principles accordingly.

Dr. John Townsend: Just like you'd like to be treated.

Jim Daly: Well, there you go. I think that's in scripture, isn't it? Treat others... yeah, we get it. John, this has been great. Thank you so much for a lifetime of learning when it comes to neuroscience and therapy and psychology, but mostly the biblical application of this.

You've said it a couple of times here that the Lord is the creator of neural pathways and we're finding that more and more. I just love the way you blend that, first as a Christian but secondly as a professional who works on the mind. These are important things to know and that's the goal of us as parents is to hope to create the healthiest adult children that we can because in that we're honoring the Lord with our responsibility as the parent, right?

Dr. John Townsend: Yes, that's true, Jim. And I've just got to thank you for all the years of keeping the mission, the vision straight. I can't tell you how many parents I have referred to you whose lives and parenting were saved over the years because there was a message, there were skills, there was help that nobody else was putting out.

Jim Daly: Well, thank you so much, Dr. Townsend. It really helps when people like you sit at the microphone here and we can talk about it together. And that's the invitation. If this has sparked awareness for you or you know somebody that needs this book, get a hold of us. When you make a monthly pledge of any amount, we'll send you a copy as our way of saying thank you for joining the ministry and together we're helping more people.

Your donations allow us to serve parents who are struggling. One listener said this: "I have learned so much from you and love the biblical parenting truths you encourage us with. Thank you for your time and energy. Your ministry has been a source of hope and comfort as we tackle parenting." We need year-round donations to keep creating resources and offering support. So be that partner with us. Make an impact for Christ for generations.

John Fuller: Yeah, donate today. And by the way, if a monthly gift isn't possible right now, we'll certainly appreciate your one-time gift of any amount. Donate today and get a copy of Dr. Townsend's book, *Boundaries with Kids*, when you call 800-A-FAMILY or online at FocusOnTheFamily.com/broadcast. While you're at our website, be sure to sign up for our Age and Stage newsletters. You'll get a free weekly newsletter straight to your inbox specifically geared for the age and stage each of your children are in as they grow. It's incredible information, it's free, and you'll find the link on our website.

Jim Daly: And Dr. Townsend, you're involved with raising up the next generation of strong Christian counselors through your efforts at Concordia. Tell us more about that.

Dr. John Townsend: Well, it's the Townsend Institute for Leadership and Counseling at Concordia University in Irvine, California. It's for people that want an opportunity to enhance their career, get a new career, move up the ladder. We're a fully accredited remote graduate degree school. We've got three programs: you can get a master's or certificate in counseling, or in organizational leadership, or in executive coaching and consulting. And we have now a PhD in counseling and actually, Forbes Magazine made us the number one remote PhD in counseling, so we're really happy about that. We have hundreds of students. They're getting great jobs. We're the bottom third of expense of schools like ours and we have these great guest experts, people like Henry Cloud, Patrick Lencioni, there's a person named Jim Daly who speaks to our students who is very well-known.

Jim Daly: It's always fun to talk to the students.

Dr. John Townsend: So yeah, we're at TownsendInstitute.com.

John Fuller: Well, it's so fun to hear what God's doing, John. Please plan to join us next time as we hear from Dr. Erwin Lutzer. He'll be sharing how we can trust God even when He doesn't seem to be answering our prayers.

Dr. Erwin Lutzer: It's because the Father said no to the Son. You have to drink the cup. That is the basis of our salvation. And if I could shout this to everyone who is listening, I would say this: that God may be doing greater things through unanswered prayer than He is through answered prayer.

John Fuller: On behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once more help you and your family thrive in Christ.