Focal Point

Dave Deway: Not every hard question comes with an easy answer, especially when it involves people you trust or a child you love fiercely. Today on Focal Point, Pastor Mike Fabarez takes real calls in this week's edition of Ask Pastor Mike Live. One listener wrestles with what to do when a ministry leader's actions no longer match his words. Another opens up about raising a child with autism and finding real community within the church. I'm Dave Deway, and now let's join Pastor Mike for today's program.

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Let's go to Rich. Rich, you're on the air with Pastor Mike. How can I help?

Rich: Hey, Pastor Mike. Uh first, I want to say thank you for having a format like this uh popped up on my phone. I was unaware of it, but uh I've been praying heavily and reading through the Bible the last few weeks uh in regards to the question I'm going to ask you. So, you popping up and having this forum is uh helpful. So, thank you first off for that.

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Okay.

Rich: The the question I have is just uh in in regards how are Christians to act or or what what are we called to do in a situation where we've come into a ministry um a congregation of people and I know we're called to use, you know, the the gift of uh wisdom and knowledge from the Spirit uh for discernment on our leaders and we should check what they say against the Bible. Um and when you start to notice some uh some some things that aren't adding up and you know, a lot of the congregation is is youth from across the country.

Um and what are we called as Christians to do when we start to see these things in leaders of that group um that are inconsistent with the Bible that almost stand out pretty strongly uh such as like in 2 Peter uh 2 3 where it warns against covetous uh they exploit with deceptive words uh using uh you know, money or power for their followers. Um 2 Corinthians even uh 8 warns against empty philosophy based on human tradition. When you start to recognize and see these things within a system um and you care for the other brothers that are in this congregation, um you believe they have a good heart for God and just maybe have don't have the the wisdom of discernment and are kind of blindly following what I would call a uh wolf in sheep's clothing.

What are we called as Christians to do and or not do? Should we cut and run and pray for their souls, pray for God that uh he he he works his way into that ministry and and he equals things out? Or are we supposed to help try to bring enlightenment through the by the verses in the Bible and share that uh with the others?

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Well, it it there's so many factors involved, you know, if you're talking about it, you know, big church down the street and there's thousands of people there and you know, it's something so giant that uh you know, there's no possible way your voice is going to you know, have a an effect and you're not going to get a lunch with the person that you see doing these things or it's some television ministry or something. The best you can do is a letter, you know. If it's a small church that you're a part of, well then yeah, then get a lunch with with whoever it is that you see doing these things.

Make sure Matthew 7 you've removed any logs from your own eye. Galatians 6 make sure you approach them with a spirit of gentleness, you know, if they're older or they outrank you spiritually, make sure you like uh Paul said to Timothy, you you know, you you approach them and and admonish them as a as a father, not as a you know, an underling. Uh you know, you you you are careful to use scripture as best you can and you do it with the spirit of humbleness and you do it privately as Matthew 18 says. You you just do it rightly and you you let the chips fall in terms of you know, not being defensive and knowing God's the result is in God's hands.

If it's something where you get nowhere and then you got friends that are involved in something like that, then you go to those people that are a part of it and you say, well, I'm not going to be a part of this anymore and you bow out of it and you say to your your friends that are in it, hey, I don't think this is a healthy place for you to be and here's why because uh this, this, and this and it's violates scripture here, here, and here and so I'm going to say to you, I think you would be wise to get out of this organization or this church or this movement or whatever it is you're talking about and uh I I think you should I think you should leave and here's why.

And it should be big enough, you know, that that it's not something, you know, minuscule. I don't know what it is. It shouldn't be like how someone dresses or you know, whatever, what car they drive. It should be something significant and and not based on opinions or or preferences or style. And so, you know, there should be something substantive. And And that's why I'm saying that because you know, Romans 14, who am I to judge another man's servant? These are God's servants. God's going to ultimately judge everyone. And so, it's got to be something beyond as it says in Romans 14 quarreling about opinions.

And I don't want to get into that. So, I don't know what the issues are. I'd have to be more specific uh Rich, but I would want to you know, I I'd want to deal with it based on all the parameters, all of the variables and uh you know, where I am in relation to the people doing the wrong and who are the people that are in this ministry, how close are they being affected by the wrong that the ministry is doing? I assume it's a ministry or a church and uh you know, there just be a lot of details I'd want to have on the table before I gave you specific examples as to what specifically to do.

And I don't know if this is the forum to get into the details, but I need more information.

Rich: No, I I I got that. I I guess that's what I'm searching for. It is a smaller ministry. Um there's not a standing church. Um and and I have tried to take uh take take uh time with with the leader and speak with them and that kind of went went sideways and nowhere. Uh and it was coming from a place of humbleness and of service that I where I could help. Uh and I've seen it blow up there that was kind of one of the uh discrepancies or that I've seen in in uh in in his own spirit.

And unfortunately, I'm far I'm removed 5 weeks from the ministry itself, but unfortunately still uh live in a place where the others are still part of this ministry, which is causing some friction unfortunately.

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Right. Right. So, yeah, and here's the thing about leadership. You're not a leader if no one's following you. And one of the best things that can happen in a ministry that's led by people that are not doing what they ought to do or they're leading in a wrong way or they're whatever, they're selfish or unbiblical is when people do start to leave. I mean, I was just in a place yesterday trying to work on some church planning issues and you know, there was a church realtor that was selling eight different church properties. And I thought, well, how sad is that?

You know, here's eight different churches that at one time were built, you know, around ministries that were teaching the Bible and now they're trying to sell them cuz these churches have atrophied and died. And I thought, okay, well, at some point everyone said we are done and they left and it it got smaller and smaller and and and whoever was leading these ministries, they're not leading them anymore. I'm assuming. I mean, maybe one of them outgrew the ministry and it was going so well. So, I I can't I mean, I'm making a generalization. I 'm sure some of them died.

Let's just put it that way. And the point is nevertheless my point is ministries die and I know that first hand by being in this ministry for a long time and watching ministries die. And I'm thinking, okay, that's the best thing that can happen if your confrontation of this guy is legitimate and biblical, you stepped away, it didn't go well, he didn't receive it and uh if other people do the same, eventually he's got no one else to lead. And certainly if it's a ministry where he depends on the ministry donations to make a living, right, eventually ceases to be a leader.

Right? I can't be a pastor if no one's going to sit under my teaching. I can't be a leader, right, of a church, right, unless someone is willing to sit under my leadership. So, this is the thing about spiritual leadership. It's going to go away if no one is willing to be under it. And that's the great thing about how we as as followers and putting myself as a congregant, I I get to choose who I sit under. And if everyone can see what you've seen, this leader ceases to be a leader. So, yeah, I would go to my friends and say, hey, let me tell you why I left.

Here's why I left. And if you can see this the way I do, maybe you would leave as well and maybe that would be good for you and your family and maybe you shouldn't be a part of this. And then that's it. That's their decision. And uh if it's as significant to them as it was to you, they will leave. And then maybe this guy uh if it's a small ministry will become a tiny ministry. And if it's a tiny ministry, at some point maybe they should be out selling real estate instead of, you know, trying to be a spiritual leader.

Rich: Understand. I appreciate that. Thank you so very much.

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Okay, Rich. I know that's hard and I know we're just talking in generalities, but um yeah, that's how how it works. And that's a sad topic, but so true. And um yeah, and and again, I just hope that all of us when we confront someone with an issue, we can just keep the emotions uh you know, at bay. I know we want to argue and we want to win an argument. We just can't we just can't get there. Right? Galatians 6 when we have to do all of this in a spirit of gentleness even if you deal with non-Christians, which is the ultimate test, right, where we're not on the same page at all.

Uh the the the the the reminder is doing it all with gentleness and respect. If we can keep that, even if we disagree, great. We're We're not handcuffed together. Right? I can go to another church. I can leave this ministry. I don't have to sit under this. I can I can say, okay, hey, it's okay. Yeah, I I'm not going to kill you. I 'm not going to, you know, slap you. I 'm not going to hit you. I'm not going to key your car. I'm just done. We're We're We're not We're going to go our separate ways.

Great. Uh even Paul, you know, in the in his in his uh division with Barnabas, right? We're going different ways. I'm not taking John Mark on this trip. Uh you know, he bailed on us last time. We're done. And And they went their separate ways. And And I just think at some point if you can just stay calm about it all and uh you may have two different views on this. If you're right, you're right and you can go your own way. And hopefully if you are right and God is on your side on this, um yeah, eventually uh it'll all sort itself out and the guy in the wrong is going to come around to where you're at eventually eventually, right?

Eventually eventually.

Dave Deway: That's Pastor Mike Fabarez and a pre-recorded segment from a real call-in on Ask Pastor Mike Live. Pastor Mike's weekly call-in broadcast that airs every Tuesday through Thursday at 1 p.m. Central. To join in the next episode or simply find more, go online to askpastormike.live. We'll now back to the program.

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Let's talk to Mark. Mark, you're on the air with Pastor Mike Fabarez. How can I help?

Mark: Hello, Pastor Mike. Thanks for taking my call. Of course.

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Of course.

Mark: Great to speak with you. Uh well, it's kind of an open-ended question. My wife and I, Christians, uh we have a 5 year old 5 and 1/2 year old with autism. And I Uh-oh. I'm sorry. I hope not Uh sent a voicemail. Sorry. Another call came in and I get and it's getting distracted. I'm sorry. I have son with autism. He's about 5 and 1/2 and it just um it's uh been a battle, a struggle for the past 2 of the year of years for just what we thought would life would look like and just raising a child in a Christian home trying to, you know, get to church, trying to uh um communicate just simple gospel truth to him when he's just uh just uh um perhaps challenged to uh even communicate with and you know, just even getting to church and uh you know, if we we want to go to church and as you see you know, we have to be mindful of just, you know, him possibly being disruptive or not being able to even get out the door just with certain things.

It's just it's put a strain on uh well, let's put a strain on my my uh consistent walk of just, you know, trying to get to church and just um perhaps life is just obviously not progressed via um straightforward typical path that I I perhaps foresaw raising a child in a Christian home. And uh just any tips that you've ever, you know, encountered with other parents with uh children with autism, just advice you give into them, just encouragement, just anything at all we just uh I'd just look to hear your thoughts on so.

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Sure. Yeah, and and you know, there's a lot of curve balls in life that uh you know, we anticipate and imagine things in the future and then all of a sudden, you know, there's something dealt to us. We think, okay, this this isn't what I envisioned. And certainly autism, depending on where the kid is on the spectrum, certainly can can do that. And uh you know, I wrote a book on at least the physical problems we had with our third born who is uh a girl who was born with severe handicaps and and some congenital defects that was a great big problem and um you know, there was the curve ball in our life with one of our kids prenatally that end up causing a lot of surgeries and issues and and handicap that uh you know, at least I have some experience with with the the the kind of redefining of how this all looks.

As it relates to autism and church, here's part of what I do think you're going to need in the church you go to, which may even be a reason for changing churches is to have a church of enough size and complexity to have a ministry that is is equipped to deal with that. Like in a church our size, we have a ministry where there's a a we call it a Compass Friends ministry where there there's there's got to be a shadowing and there has to be a pairing up and a you know, a a sensitive well-trained group of people who know how to deal with special needs kids that have the tendency to maybe be disruptive or whatever.

If you go to a church for instance that's uh you know, a family style church, there are churches that theologically think all the kids should be in the main service and then you're like, okay, how can I even do that? Even a church like that, there needs to be uh some ministry that's parallel to the main service where okay, if you just child with autism or some severe, you know, capacity issues uh remedial issues in terms of their intellect or whatever, there has to be something that peels a child into that time so parents can actually engage in worship.

Um but most like our church has a kids ministry that runs parallel to the main service. And then within that, there has to be even a sub ministry that 's going to be able to rightly uh help those children that are going to have trouble mainstreaming. And it's like a school district. There has to be something that that helps. And And that to me once the parents worship and walk with Christ in their churches affected, that's where you're going to have to have a church that's got the capacity to do that. And depending on where you live, hopefully there's, you know, churches of size and substance and and and even frankly, you know, the ability with uh you know, the complexity and the the the giftedness of the people leading a child's ministry that can pull that off.

And to me, that's critical cuz you've got to be able to do this well. And if not, then there has to be some kind of family or really close trusted friends that can allow you, right, to attend church and then do your you know, your Christian education with your your autistic child at home because if you can't gather from church what's needed and that is for you to be edified, equipped, challenged, and and be spurred on to live in good deeds, then church to you has become something that's not what it's supposed to be. And And uh that may sound harsh and I am not trying to say leave your kid at home, you know, just go to church without them.

But there has to be something that allows you to have what is a critical means of grace in your life, which is the teaching of God's word in the assembled church every week that that cannot be impinged upon regardless of what of what's going on. And And this is one thing. There has to be some adjustments that need to be made. Now, if if I'm envisioning this way more intrusive than it is, then I'm just going to say, yeah, there's just a lot of things that are going to need our patience and our focus and a lot more communication with the leaders that are there uh and and you know, it may be somewhere else on on the on the you know, the the the the spectrum.

I don't mean the spectrum of autism, but the spectrum of of severity that maybe this can be done with uh you know, a little less change in the structure of your weekly experience. But church needs to be for you an oasis, not of of tranquility, but an oasis from the rest of your domestic life that will give you a chance to have your spiritual batteries recharged and your spiritual walk challenged. And it sounds to me Mark like right now that's not happening. At least that's what I picked up from what you said.

Mark: Yes, and uh part of it is also unfortunately the fighting the I I guess tendency to self-isolate. I think my wife and I kind of feel like odd balls now like nobody else can relate to us cuz you can tell them you know, they find out your kid has autism and they kind of like, oh, um well, we'll just, you know, we'll pray for you. And they don't really know what to do with it. So, it's kind of a um enough of a rarity that I think some people just you tell them and they just they don't know what to do with this information and they're just going like, okay, well, good luck with that and so I mean, it's something I I could I think our churches is sizable enough I guess I could bring it up and say, hey, what could we do about this?

But um you know, I've just always been kind of about the uh

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Right. Right. Right. Well, just know this

Mark: this this decision that I'm supposed

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Yeah. Yeah, I I just know this. Everyone feels some area of life is that way. You know, whether it's yeah, I'm divorced or this is my second wife or you know, these kids are adopted. They're not biologically my own or you know, whatever there's always something where everyone thinks, oh, you know, people are they take up a breath or a stop and they don't know what to do. They don't know what to say. And And that's true of everyone. There's something that goes on and and few people have a resume that's so intact that that that they don't feel like the odd ball.

And if you if you make it your pattern to reflexively isolate, just know this is something you've got to fight Mark. You've got to say there's no biblical allowance to isolate. I have to push through that. And And you know, I don't know how the what your size of your church is, but you you have to find uh the the courage to say, I'm going to be in a small group. I have to have my chairs face to face during the week somewhere in my church, not just side by side in the main service. I've got to have some service post in the church.

Those are the three kind of aspects of church life you've got to see happening. You got to touch the bases in in all of those areas. Yes, of course we sit side by side for the main service, but where am I getting that kind of face to face interaction in some smaller context of my church? And then when am I getting out of the chair and and picking up something where I'm doing something to contribute to help the church? And And if you have all three of those, right, which may all happen in one day or they may happen two days, you know, as I come back to the church a different day of the week or whatever, but there has to be that and and and you can feel like the odd ball cuz your kid has autism or because, you know, there's some other thing in your life.

And if you isolate, that's that's on you. You can't choose to isolate because of the difficulty. And you're going to have to push through that. And it may mean you know, a bigger a bigger church where you don't feel quite so odd because the bigger the church, the more everyone seems every other person at least seems there's something unique about them. You know, I was in prison once or I you know, whatever. I have uh you know, I I have only have one leg or whatever. I can think I'm just thinking through people in my church.

There's just so many things about people that that they feel like the odd ball and they're and they're not. You know, they I mean, yeah, they're different, but uh we just have to we have to just know our church has to be a place where we're all leaning in and diving in and and we can't pull back cuz if we pull back, right, we're never going to have the the kind of of help that we need from our church, which is to get strengthened every single week and uh to go into our our Christian life stronger because we have relationships there that aren't just uh you know, an hour a week, but we're checking in, we're texting, we're you know, we're praying for each other, we know each other.

That has to happen. And And frankly, there's going to be people that are in your home from your church that get to know your child and uh that's going to help. They're going to feel a little bit of that uh sense of diffusing like this is just my life and no one really knows my autistic child. And it's going to be it's going to be better, but it's going to be you leaning into this cuz a 5 year old, that's a chance where people can interact with this child and and you just you got to lean in so that he can have more connections.

And there are a lot of people with the sensitive personalities that are going to do really well uh interacting with an autistic child. Even though there are things that you think, oh, that's embarrassing or this is hard or you know, this isn't going to be comfortable for them and but there are people that they're wired for this. And uh that just means more exposure and more involvement on your part. And I you know, it's hard with wives cuz they may be at a different place, but you're going to have to be the leader in this and lean into more things so that you can be better known and better involved and have more people from your church in your home and more involvement and and it's it's you just have to work through it all.

And I think that's the key. That really is the key.

Mark: Yeah. Thank you.

Pastor Mike Fabarez: All right, Mark. I know that's tough and uh what I'm not saying and I think some people would say, oh, find more parents with autistic kids. I don't think that's the answer. Everyone's got their own thing even though there may be someone else with an autistic child, but if you just kind of find people that the problem you have, like I got people that are missing limbs in our church. I'm not saying, hey, hey, let's find let's make a small group but everybody is missing a limb. I'm not going to do that. Right? We all have our things.

Right? What I want is the church to be a church and everyone's got their thing and I'm not trying to find people that have the same problems. Right? Let's just be the body of Christ and I'm not going to have a kid with a problem and send him to a family down the street that's got the same problem. Right? We're We're going to deal with this uh all together.

Dave Deway: That's Pastor Mike Fabarez here on Focal Point. What you heard today was another edition of Ask Pastor Mike Live. Real listeners bringing real struggles straight to Pastor Mike. If today's calls got you thinking, remember the lines are open every week Tuesday through Thursday at 1 p.m. Central. Get the call-in number and everything you need at askpastormike.live or catch up anytime on YouTube by searching Ask Pastor Mike Live. For more of Pastor Mike's regular Bible teaching, head to focalpointradio.org or grab the free Focal Point app to carry the whole library with you. Could you actually defend the Bible if someone challenged you on it right now out loud?

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Today's program was produced and sponsored by Focal Point Ministries.