Focal Point

Dave Deway: When life hurts, the questions get louder, and there is never a shortage of opinions online. What people really need are answers rooted in God's word, which is why Pastor Mike Fabarez opens the phone lines every week on Ask Pastor Mike Live. Today you'll hear from a listener wondering whether it's wise to sing worship songs from churches with questionable teaching, and another whose friend's husband has filed for divorce, refused counseling, and still wants to stay friends. I'm Dave Deway, and now here's Pastor Mike.

Tom: Hi Pastor Mike. I have a question for you. Curious on your thoughts on Hillsong and Bethel music. Certain groups of music that's available today that have that's coming out of churches with false doctrine. What your take is on that cuz I know churches pay copyright copyrights for that so they can use that music, and is that a compromise? Just curious on your thoughts on that cuz I have some concerns. We're trying to keep our church true and and honoring God in all that we say and do.

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Right. Well, here is the issue with that. Obviously, we don't want to support churches that are teaching false doctrine, and Hillsong, Bethel are good examples of churches we would not want to support, and so most churches that are conservative churches that think we know we don't want to support these churches that are doing the kinds of things Bethel Church in particular has done and the new apostolic reformation that goes with a lot of what they have been pushing, and I think plenty of books have written against, and most people would say is way out of the pale of of biblical evangelical conservative orthodoxy.

We would say, hey, we want to stand apart from that. We would try to say, hey, we don't want to support that. The the problem I think comes when some people in practice are going to say, well, the licensing of a church is not going directly to you know, Bethel and Hillsong. There is a minuscule, I suppose, amount of money when a church pays the one fee to the licensing company, and then it's distributed I suppose across the board, and I'd have to look at all the details of that, and of course, we have to pay one fee to one licensing company for all that we use publicly in in our worship services.

So that, you know, I I agree that there is some, I suppose, trickle down like there would be if I buy an Apple computer for my youth pastor to use in his research and preaching. Yeah, it's going to a group that is pro LGBTQ along with a lot of other things that I disagree with. It is money going to support things that I'm fully against. Yeah, absolutely. Or is there some, you know, piece of furniture that is, you know, created by a Buddhist organization or a Mormon, you know, I'm sending a group to a counseling conference and they're staying in a Marriott that's you know, founded by and run by a Mormon family.

Yeah, we can avoid some of that, and I'm going to say, if people are saying, well, look at this Bethel song or this Hillsong song and the lyrics themselves are completely orthodox, they're not wrong at all. There's nothing promoting the new apostolic reformation. There's nothing, you know, wrong with the song itself, and then they're going to say, and if you're going to nark this because of a guilt by association, I'm going to look at your hymn book and go through your hymn book and look at all the people that have written your hymns and say, aren't you supporting a lot of songs that though the words may be orthodox, a lot of these people were not regenerate.

A lot of them are apostate, and some of them were, you know, just off the reservation entirely at least at the end of their lives, and I'm going to have to admit you're right. So there's not a consistency that can be lived by a lot of people that are that are throwing flags on Hillsong songs that are sung in church. Now even today, you don't have to put their their words up on the screen. In other words, in the old days, at least I think this was how it used to be. I'm not in the worship department, but you had to put some kind of small lettering up there that shows, you know, who this song was by.

I don't think that's a part of of modern worship anymore. I don't think you have to do that, and I may be wrong and some worship guy can call in and correct me on this, but I think the reality is there's just a licensing that every church pays, and again, I'm I'm out of my my pro wheelhouse on this, but I I don't think we can live consistency and think we have consistently on that guilt by association argument. We have to go then to scripture and look at how Paul deals with it with meat sacrificed to idols in the book of 1 Corinthians.

Now that's one argument that I'm going to say as as someone who's going to look at just that argument, I'm going to say, yeah, a church can use Hillsong and Bethel music and not be before the Lord in sin. I can say that I think biblically and and I'm fine, but if a church has people sitting in the pew and they're watching all the conservative talking heads on YouTube that are saying, look at the guilt by association, look at the guilt by association, look at the guilt by association, then we move from 1 Corinthians to Romans 14 where Paul is going, listen, am I going to destroy a brother in Christ for the sake of of food?

You know, I'm not going to do that. And so he has to capitulate for the weak conscience his freedoms, and he says, I'm happy to do that out of love. I'm not going to destroy my brother for the sake of eating meat. So, you know, I'll never eat meat again if that's what that means. So I know that 's a hyperbola statement, but there is a time where a church has to say, hey, if people are really stumbling over this fact even though they can't live consistent with that kind of hypersensitive conscience because they go home to a sofa that's made by, you know, who knows who, they're supporting all kinds of organizations just by going to the supermarket or to Target or whatever.

They can never live consistently. Their conscience is violated so much so, and there's small groups talking about it every week. I guess we better stop. Even though the name isn't up there, they know the association. They're keeping track of all the songs because they're cataloging them all based on everything they've read on the on the blogs they read and the YouTube videos they watch and all these conservative pundits online have made them hypersensitive to this, and I 'm going to really blame a lot of the people that just keep calling these things out cuz the problem is I can do the same thing for the people online who are making these connections and and really damaging people's conscience.

I could turn around whoever it is, I could damage their conscience. All I got to do is follow them around for a week, look at everything they do, and I can start to find all the garbage in the world that is being supported by whatever they're doing. Clothes they're wearing, belt that they're wearing, places that they go to eat, places that they go to spend their money. I could say, hey, you are supporting so many things that are evil. And and this is why Paul said, I'd have to leave the world if I were going to not have any association or or or connection you know, with the immoral of this world.

So so I hope you understand. I think in some churches you're going to have to abandon it altogether depending on the complaints and the people have a legitimate violation of a conscience over it, and in another churches, hey, if no one's got an issue, right? Whatever. If the lyrics are good, then then use it to the glory of God. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. I don't care if if a Buddhist wrote a song about Christ and and and God, right? If it can help me glorify the Lord, great. I'm going to do it, but once it becomes an issue, right?

And people are stumbling over it, then okay, I guess we got to toss it. That's why this has to be Tom a nuanced answer, and I come speaking out of both sides of my mouth. Someone may say, but I'm going to say Paul is speaking out of two sides of his mouth. Even when he says to the Galatians, don't let yourself be circumcised or Christ is of no value to you, right? You've fallen from grace. And then he turns around well, this is after, but he well, I'm not sure of the timing. I have to relook at the timeline of Galatians, which is probably the earliest epistle he wrote or the earliest letter he wrote.

Yeah. But he he circumcised Timothy so that he could go into the synagogues and evangelize. Okay, which is it? Don't let yourself be circumcised or circumcised. Well, it depends on the context. They had their heart on trying to lean on circumcision as some kind of means of justification, and clearly Paul's not leaning on on on circumcising Timothy for some kind of means of justification. It was becoming all things to all men that I might by all means win some. So that's why you can say, yes, one church can use Bethel and Hillsong songs and not stumble anybody, and another church can't.

So it really depends on who you're dealing with. Does that help at all, Tom?

Tom: It does. I guess just a little further thought on that. My concern is also and you answered that very well. Thank you. Another concern I have would be could it be somewhat of a Trojan horse? And and on our screens it does have the copyright on the lower corner in in small print, but I'm concerned that if if we don't call that out and and some other songs are good and and some certainly aren't. I'm just is it can it be an endorsement or a kind of a Trojan horse to allow people cuz there's a lot in today's church I think there's a lot of young believers or people without a lot of depth.

So I just have a concern of for them is or can that be a Trojan horse to to let them I like the music so I follow the music and the music takes me here and and then that's not a really good place.

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Yeah, and that is an argument. It's an argument I can use about a lot of things. You may recommend a book that you think is great by a good author, but the publisher publishes other stuff that 's not good, and you can say, well, I'm opening up the door for them to read books by Zondervan and and it's a good author and a good book here, but over here it's not a good author, not a good book. Yeah, we can be hypersensitive to that, but but I'm going to say this, and I'm just trying to look it up real quick.

Yeah, I I think we need to figure out whether or not we need to put the that up there on the screen. And and the the CCLI license number as I'm trying to figure this out, I probably shouldn't try to do it on the fly as I'm trying to talk, think, and look this up online, but I I don't know how that works today, but I know that I've seen a change in that over the years, and if it doesn't have to be put up if they legally you can pay the CCLI fee and not put that up, then by all means that would be better because that argument would go away, Tom.

And I think there is some argument there, I suppose. Once you put Bethel or Hillsong up there, they think, oh, I'm going to go check that out. And and yet I don't know how many people would actually do that. Maybe they would. Are they really looking up some other guy when they read it? Maybe they do. And if they do, well, then again, better safe than sorry, and if you can do that, great. And and there's plenty of music, and if you can avoid it, great. You know, I I just had this conversation with our worship guy here, you know, with a great song for worship on on Resurrection Sunday, and and he said I'd like to use it, and I said, well, you know, I don't think that's wise just because we've had enough complaints about that, and so give me an alternative, and we ditch the Bethel song or the Hillsong or I don't know which one it was.

So that that's a practical thing. Now I'm I'm I'd hate to use my example cuz I 'm not trying to say every church should ditch them. That 's why I 'm trying to be fair about both sides of this. You can be a church of 100 people and nobody cares, nobody knows, and and nobody's being led astray, and you're not putting the the Bethel up in in you know, 14 font point 14 point font and no one cares. So but you know, in church my size with a lot of narks that and I don't I don't I don't mean to say that pejoratively.

A lot of people that are really looking at everything we do and every breath we take and how big my belt buckle is, they're they're going to you know, have something to say about it, and they will cause issues in small groups and in you know, on in the lobby of the church. So I have to avoid a lot more, I think, often times just in the in the the visibility of a lot of things that we do. And so but yet I my guy is so totally orthodox, but he said this would be a perfect song about the resurrection.

Can we just this once do that? Well, he's smart enough to know you better ask the senior pastor because we know this is we're we're skating on a on a on a controversial, you know, sheet of ice when we get into this publisher. So I I get it, and I think most churches are steering away from it that are conservative. That's probably the best practice, but I don't want to say it in some kind of man-made law because again, I can look up in your hymn book and find apostates that have written some of the best most often sung hymns in in Christian orthodoxy.

They love to sing them, and they're orthodox lyrics, but they're written by people that ended their lives hating God. So what do I do with that? Point that out to everyone and ruin those hymns? I don't want to ruin those hymns for people, right? Cuz the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, and I don't want to ruin that for people, and I'm not going to ruin that for people, but people love to ruin things for other people, and I think the internet is full of people like that and YouTube is full of people like that, and I think they're cruel and I think they're gnostics and I think they want to be seen as experts, and that's why they like to ruin things for people, and I just don't like that attitude at all.

I think it's prideful. I think it's gnostic, and by that I mean we got the secret knowledge you don't have, and we get to destroy things for you cuz we have all the information that you didn't have. And ta-da, look at what we know and you didn't know. But yes, I guess Tom most people are moving away from it, and they probably should in most contexts, but not every church needs to.

Tom: Thank you very much, Pastor Mike. Appreciate your your wisdom and the Lord bless you. Thank you very much. Good Thank you.

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Okay. Thanks, Tom. Yeah, thanks for calling. Call me anytime. These are thorny issues, and trying to be fair and trying to be biblical cuz I can't I can't make a fully you know, I've heard guys I I know guys that are friends of mine that have posted things and done interviews online and and and I just can't fully get behind the assertive dogmatism with which they say these things because I can think of 18 different examples as to where they're not consistent with their conclusions. And if you do, you're going to paint yourself in such a small corner that you know, only the best top 10 theologians can write things for you or make things for you or you know, sing songs for you.

And I just we're getting ridiculous, and I think 1 Corinthians dealing with meat sacrificed to idols is a great set of principles we derive. And in the middle of that, he does quote the song. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof, and certainly Paul deals with that in 1 Timothy telling Timothy you know, there are a lot of people that want to deny people a lot of things, and he says again, a lot of things have been created for us to enjoy, right? Those who believe and know the truth. And so I don't want to rip people off from from great things that God wants us to enjoy because of a guilt by association argument.

Dave Deway: You're listening to a segment from Ask Pastor Mike Live, which you can join in every week Tuesday through Thursday at 1 p.m. Central. Find more details at askpastormike.live. Let's go to Rita. Rita, you're on the air with Pastor Mike Fabarez. How can I help? Rita.

Rita: Hi Pastor Mike. So what if you know, two couples both both are Christians. I been married for like maybe 15 years, and the husband filed for divorce for whatever reasons, and then the wife is trying to you know, request for like marriage counseling, trying to save the marriage, but the husband refused. Is is it considered as abandonment in the part of the husband?

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Well, here's the line I didn't like about your description is for whatever reason. But I would want to know what the reason is that he is pursuing divorce and not wanting reconciliation cuz he may have some biblical grounds for this, and he's on principle saying, I'm not going to reconcile because of this, and it may point to something that the scripture has said is valid and he's exercising a right in this marriage to step out of it. And if that's the case, it's not abandonment of 1 Corinthians 7 because he's got a legitimate reason to step out of it.

But if it 's just, you know, I don't like you anymore because I just don't like you, well then, you know, that's that's not you know, a Matthew 19 situation. So I I would need to know more about what is the reason he wants a divorce. How would he state that if I ran into him at the coffee shop today? What would he say?

Rita: Oh, well, because he says he's not he's no longer compatible with his wife.

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Why?

Rita: Yeah, because they don't have like you know, he says that the marriage is dead and they're he's not happy anymore and they're not close anymore, physical closeness or emotional closeness.

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Yeah, well, that's called breaking faith with your wife, and Malachi 2 says you're not supposed to do that. It says nothing about unless of course, you're not happy. They should be physical according to 1 Corinthians 7, so you're going to have to get over your feelings to be physical, and I know people don't like that cuz they want emotions to lead actions, but actions need to lead emotions, and that's what the Bible teaches, and I know they don't want to do what the Bible says. They want to do what the world says and what their flesh says, but the Bible's very clear.

Marriage is a covenant before God. God is the witness to that covenant, and he will keep you accountable for it if you don't guard your spirit, and if you choose to break faith with your wife, faith means the the covenant that you make with your wife. So no, he doesn't have the right to step away from it because of those reasons, and I would say the wife needs to pursue reconciliation, and if he's saying, no, I won't do it and you know, he claims to be a Christian, I'm going to still say you're not acting like a Christian and you are abandoning your wife, right?

You you may as as Paul said to Titus, right? You can by your mouth profess God, but by your deeds you deny him, and I'm going to say if I'm her pastor, hey, this guy is abandoning you. You're trying to save the marriage. He doesn't want to save the marriage, and he's acting like a non-Christian by reading passages like Malachi chapter 2 verses 14 through 16 and saying, I don't care. Well, if you don't care about what God says, how can you call yourself a Christian? Why do you call me Lord, Lord and not do what I say?

That's what Jesus said and I'm saying, right? That doesn't make any sense cuz many will come to him on that day and say, Lord, Lord, did we not? And he'll say, depart from me. I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness. Here's what the law says. Here's what the law of God, the moral law of God says, right? You make a covenant with your wife. You don't break it. You do it. You keep that covenant and you stay faithful to it. And if it's only here's the only two reasons that you would break it, and this is where this gal is about to break it, and that is if your spouse abandoned you.

And this is what's happening to this gal or if you have an unrepentant adulterer on your hands or adulteress on your hands, and then according to Matthew 19 all right, there is a reason that you could divorce and get remarried with impunity. So Rita, yeah, she's going to be I mean that was your first question, and I'm going to answer it now that you've given for whatever reason some substance, and that is yes. She's being abandoned by her husband on the information you've given me. I'm going to say that and I'm going to say she should get some good counsel through all of this so that she can know though she's not perfect, this is not her fault because she's seeking reconciliation and he's seeking a divorce.

Rita: Okay. So the wife just let it go because the husband don't want to do anything anymore, but he still wants to be friends with the wife, and then the husband is still talking about Jesus, about faith, you know.

Pastor Mike Fabarez: Okay. Well, if Jesus and faith would call you to stay married and it's nothing about you know, not happy or you know, I'm the marriage is dead, using all these great phrases that have nothing to do with what the Bible has to say, right? The marriage is not about you being happy, and this girl did not put on a dress, walk down an aisle and say, I do so that you could be friends, right? This is more than friends. So yeah, she needs to say, I didn't sign up to be friends. I signed up to be more than friends, which is husband and wife.

You don't want to be that. This is unacceptable, and if you're going to divorce me, then we're I guess we're going to be divorced. Let him go. That is the phrase from 1 Corinthians 7. Let him go. And and you're going to have to sign the papers because in our country at least, right? This is this is a no-fault kind of divorce country we now have where he can divorce her and she really can't do anything about it. He's breaking this covenant you know, on a one-sided unilateral decision, and she is going to have to go on her way no longer legally bound in this marriage, and it's it's not what she wanted.

So she should all the way to the very end be saying, I would love to reconcile with you. I want you to be my husband. You covenanted with me. You promised to be my husband. I want you to be my husband. I will do whatever I can to be your wife. I'm sorry that I don't please you. I 'm sorry that I don't make you happy, but I want to make the most of it. I'm willing to be physical with you. I'm willing to love you, and I really think this is sad that you're wanting to divorce me.

I mean she should be saying that kind of thing in one way or another all the way to the end because she needs to be willing to to be his wife even though he's not willing to be her husband. And if it ends that way, I'm going to exonerate her as one of my parishioners, one of my congregants, and I'm going to say, yeah, you did not leave him. He left you. Therefore, I'm going to see this in the category of 1 Corinthians 7. I I'm not I 'm not interested in being friends with him.

No. I mean unless they're sharing parenting and they should be civil with one another because they share custody of kids, which is tragic to even think of. But if this is not the case, I'm thinking why do I want to be friends with a guy who refuses to be my husband after promising till death do us part to be my husband? He doesn't want to be my husband. Well, I'm going to look for a husband and a friend elsewhere then because this is not what I signed up for. That's Pastor Mike Fabarez closing out today's Ask Pastor Mike Live here on Focal Point.

If a question has been weighing on you, bring it straight to Pastor Mike. The lines open live Tuesday through Thursday at 1 p.m. Central. You'll find the number and schedule at askpastormike.live. And past episodes on YouTube under Ask Pastor Mike Live. For his verse-by-verse teaching, visit focalpointradio.org or use the free Focal Point app. Hard questions like today's usually come out of hard seasons, and that's where this month's resource can help. Psalms of Trust by Pastor HB Charles Jr. takes 10 Psalms penned by people under real pressure and brings their confidence in God into focus for our own lives.

You'll find the psalmist's carrying fear, confusion, and even complaints straight to the Lord and landing again and again on trust. As Pastor Charles likes to point out, Psalm 46 calls the Lord the God of Jacob, the schemer, the heel grabber. A reminder that God isn't only with us on our best days. If that's a word you need this week, this book is for you. Request Psalms of Trust with your gift to Focal Point today. Call 888-320-5885 or give online at focalpointradio.org. Every question Pastor Mike answers on the air reaches listeners because friends like you keep this ministry going.

Your support means people in painful seasons can hear biblical answers whether that's on the radio, a podcast, or a live call. Answering real questions has always been close to the heart of this ministry, and you can help it reach further. Would you become a monthly Focal Point partner? Choose the amount that fits your budget and sign up at focalpointradio.org or by calling 888-320-5885. First time tuning in? Let us welcome you with a free copy of Pastor Mike's booklet Seeking Comfort. Request it online at focalpointradio.org. Well, I'm Dave Deway. Enjoy your weekend, and we'll look for you next time on Focal Point with Pastor Mike Fabarez.

Today's program was produced and sponsored by Focal Point Ministries.