FamilyLife Blended®

Ron L. Deal: At the end of the day, if you pinned me down and said, "What does Malachi 2:16 say?" I'm not a Hebrew scholar. I'm not sure I know.

Gayla Grace: Exactly how I feel.

Cheryl Shumake: Especially after today.

Ron L. Deal: There is always something to learn. It is just as likely that it does not say, "God hates divorce," as it is likely that it does say that.

Welcome to the FamilyLife Blended® podcast. I'm Ron Deal. We help blended families and those who love them pursue the relationships that matter most. That pursuit is rooted in God's redemptive work in our lives, His mercy, and His grace. We rest in that, and we're empowered by it to move beyond our sin.

Gayla Grace is joining me today. Hey, Gayla.

Gayla Grace: Hey, good to see you, Ron. Good to be here.

Ron L. Deal: For those who don't know who Gayla is, she is on our FamilyLife Blended team, a writer and speaker extraordinaire. She contributes a lot of great things and speaks for us at our ministry-equipping events, Blended and Blessed. She is also the host of the Women and Blended Families livestream. You really enjoy that, don't you?

Gayla Grace: I do enjoy that. It covers conversations about blended family life that are appropriate for women.

Ron L. Deal: Moms, stepmoms, even daughters and grandmas. All women in blended families. All of the above. Great. Thank you, Gayla.

Let me tell you, we got a review from a counselor about this podcast. This is what that counselor said: "Trusted resource for my clients. Five stars." How about that? I mean, that's pretty cool.

Gayla Grace: That's great from a counselor.

Ron L. Deal: Exactly. Somebody who's discerning. She says, "I'm a therapist and have referred clients to Ron's books for years. The podcast is just one more amazing resource for them." Well, thank you to that counselor. We agree with you. We think this is a good resource for people.

By the way, if you're listening or watching and you're new to this podcast, you've stumbled onto the largest blended family equipping ministry that we know of in the world, really. We've got books, a video series, online articles, a YouTube channel, and materials in Spanish. We have live and virtual events. We would love to connect you to all of that as well as local ministries. That's one of the things we're all about as well.

Today we're going to be talking about something we have never talked about before on this podcast. We have almost 200 episodes, and we're tackling a tough one if you've just joined us for the very first time. It's a really important conversation. So, please stay with us. If it is not helpful for you, I bet you've got a friend who could benefit from what we're going to be talking about. By the way, all those resources I was mentioning a minute ago, you can find all that plus a free eight-session video series called The Smart Stepfamily. Just go to our website familylifeblended.com. The show notes will get you connected if you'd prefer that way, but just come browse and find something that works for you.

Gayla, you and I are going to be joined by Cheryl Shumake today. You've heard her live at Blended and Blessed. She's been on this podcast multiple times. She's a certified life coach and the founder and director of both Stepmom Sanity and Sabona, which is a blended family ministry for black and brown families. She's a Bible teacher and author of four books, including one of our favorites, Waiting to Be Wanted: A Stepmom’s Guide to Loving Before Being Loved.

She and Jonathan have become good friends of Gayla's and mine and this ministry. We just love Cheryl a lot. They've been married since 2008 and are joining us from Michigan today. Correct?

Cheryl Shumake: I am. I know we talk evergreen around here, but it is cold today. I was hoping for spring or a break in the weather, but no, Michigan has shown up.

Ron L. Deal: Okay, ladies, we're doing something a little bit different today. We're going to have sort of a little class discussion between the three of us. I think it's going to be a lot of fun. You know the topic, but you don't really know exactly what it is I'm going to say. So you and our listeners and viewers are going to be learning all at the same time. Is that okay with you?

Cheryl Shumake: I'm actually kind of excited.

Ron L. Deal: All right, well good. We'll find out if this works or not. Have you guys ever heard the phrase, "God hates divorce"?

Cheryl Shumake: Yes, absolutely.

Gayla Grace: Of course, absolutely.

Ron L. Deal: I think some of our listeners have heard it somewhere in their journey, and even if you're new to the Christian faith, maybe you've seen that somewhere. So let me just ask you this question, ladies. In what context did you hear that, and what was the personal impact on you?

Gayla Grace: I've heard it in Bible study many times, and certainly I've read it myself in my own Bible study. As someone who is divorced, it hits hard. I trust God's word, I study God's word, and I want to understand it. But I've also heard it in other contexts. Sometimes it's in reference to specific situations, and so it feels a little more personal. It can feel like somebody is condemning divorce, and they don't know our situations. Those comments can even be hurtful sometimes to hear.

Cheryl Shumake: I want to echo Gayla just a little bit, but I want to say that I've heard it, but I've not heard it unpacked across the pulpit or in Bible study. I've read it. I think that has done a disservice to the church in a great big way. Certainly, I've read it. I'm divorced myself. I wasn't the instigator of that divorce, so I don't think that those words were thrown at me harshly. But I was looked at as very different when it was said to me. I felt othered when the words were said to me.

Ron L. Deal: You felt othered. Unpack that a little bit more for us, would you?

Cheryl Shumake: I had two distinct communities around me. Both were Christian communities. One was very supportive. In the other community, because marriage is so venerated, when we were going through the divorce, I was looked at as a pariah. This was someone that was broken, someone who had broken God's law. It was almost like I had a disease that was catching. There was a little bit of isolation. There were some offhand comments from adults toward my daughter that were very interesting for me, comparing the two experiences.

Ron L. Deal: It sounds like you felt marginalized, like you felt second class.

Cheryl Shumake: Yes, very much so.

Ron L. Deal: Not just that specifically, but both of you, do you think when we use the phrase, whether it's from the pulpit in passing or whether it's during deep Bible study or just flying out of people's mouths within the Christian community, what's the purpose? When it comes out, what is it that the person is trying to say or to convey?

Cheryl, you just said it had an impact on you of making you feel second class or othered, whether they intended this or not. I'm wondering if there's a purpose along with that when people say it.

Cheryl Shumake: I wonder in the times that I have heard it when it was not directed toward me, I think people were trying to be helpful, but because they used it outside of context, it didn't always come across as helpful at all. It was more so "let me shame this person into taking a different act," or "let me highlight the horror of this," versus "let me enter into this situation with this person with empathy and with compassion."

Gayla Grace: I think it depends on who is saying it. There are times that people are maybe just talking about divorce and the commonality of divorce, but then there's other times. I'll never forget a conversation with an elder in our church who was just having a one-on-one conversation with me and Randy. He knew I was divorced, and he made a comment about how he just doesn't understand divorce. "No one in my family is divorced." Then he started talking for a long time about how nobody in his family is divorced. That was hard. I felt a little judgment in the way that it came across.

Now, I will say, sometimes those of us who are divorced are quick to take the judgment, to hear the judgment first. Sometimes people aren't judging; we just go there first. So I do think we have to be a little bit on guard about that when we're divorced.

Cheryl Shumake: Absolutely. I will say on the opposite end of that, I have used the phrase myself with a couple of people that I know that were contemplating divorce, but only when I was told that God is okay with that divorce. I didn't see what we would call a biblical reason for the divorce, and my rebuttal, or my ask of them, was to consider that God does hate divorce. So let's not attach His approval to this if this is something you're going to do.

Ron L. Deal: Well, that's good. I appreciate you sharing that. It kind of helps set up our conversation. I just want to say at the outset that what makes divorce sinful in my understanding of scripture is covenant breaking. To divorce your spouse is to break your covenant with them. God keeps His promises. God wants us to be like Him and keep our promises. That's really where the sin sets in.

And by the way, I've got to add that there's a lot of still-married Christians who are covenant breakers in the sense that they are not living up to their vows to love, honor, and cherish their spouse. They're distant, angry, and mistreating their spouse. They don't get a pass. Sometimes that posture says to divorced people, "Well, you're divorced. God hates divorce, so God hates what you've done. But He's fine with me being a jerk day in and day out."

That is not true. I think that's important because it sort of levels the playing field to "wait a minute, what are we saying here?" If we're saying that one sin is worse than another or I can posture myself, no. The important thing about covenant breaking is that that can happen within the marriage and can happen and cause the end of the marriage. God is against both. That's the issue. They've sinned just like anybody else who's divorced their spouse for unjustifiable reasons is breaking their covenant.

Cheryl Shumake: I'm so glad you said that. We get so legalistic and we forget that what Jesus goes after in every interaction is hard-heartedness, sinfulness within the heart. We can become very prideful if we go down a legalistic road with anything in terms of our walk with God. We need to remain humble. There is a scripture that talks about those of you who are more mature in a particular area restoring your brother and sister, but doing so in the spirit of humility lest you fall also. We always have to have humility in these situations.

Ron L. Deal: Absolutely. And just to follow up on your comment, Matthew 19 is where Jesus references that Moses was able to give certificates of divorce because of hard-heartedness. I think a good translation of hard-heartedness is stubborn unrepentance. That is, "I just am refusing to change." That can happen within a marriage just like it can cause the end of a marriage. Both are sinful.

And so again to our listener, this is important that you hear us say this at the outset. If you have been on the receiving end of an unwanted divorce, you didn't break your covenant. It was done to you. The sin is appropriated to the one who broke the covenant. I think that's really important because there's always two parties in a divorce, and so does everybody share the same burden of responsibility? I'm not so sure. I'm not nearly smart enough to figure out how to hash that out, but I think we appropriate guilt in general within the Christian community to everybody. "Oh, you're divorced, therefore you're a covenant breaker." Well, maybe not. I just think it's important that we say that as we launch into this conversation.

Gayla Grace: Ron, I want to add something to that because I think sometimes we always consider the covenant breaker is the one who wanted out, who filed for divorce. Or even just they are the one who made the decision. Covenant breaking can happen for a multitude of reasons and divorce follows, but it might be that the person who actually is wanting to walk away is because the covenant was broken by the other person.

Ron L. Deal: Right, very important to say that. It has nothing to do with who filed or went to a lawyer first. Those are all modern life examples of how this thing rolls out, but it really is not about who committed an unrepentant act and wouldn't back away from it and just kept going forward. By the way, this whole thing begs the conversation about forgiveness, too, because we're all sinners. My goodness, how many times have I sinned in the last 40 years against my wife? I have no idea. I don't want to know that number; that would frighten me to death.

Thank goodness she can forgive me. Thank goodness we work with each other. Thank goodness this whole idea of reconciliation and working toward repair on relationships is so important to being able to move forward. That's the heart of God, keeping our promises and being forgiving toward one another. And sometimes you get to a place in a relationship where that cannot be repaired and there seems to be an allowance for divorce under those circumstances.

So let's just keep going and moving forward with this. Let's just repeat that generally the church, I think, when we use the phrase "God hates divorce," there's an agenda behind it more often than not, especially when it comes out in teaching or sermon time. I think those agendas are to discourage divorce. "You know, God hates divorce." So basically it's a message, "Don't do this because God hates it."

I think we're trying to point out the negative consequences of divorce. We're trying to turn people back from doing it. We're trying to help them think twice about stepping forward. In other words, a lot of the time this phrase gets used, it's a tactic. It's not really a true unpacking of the scripture. It's not really trying to get into how God feels about all of this. We're not really worried about God too much. We're just trying to use a tactic to get people to not get divorced. We're trying to scare people out of divorce. Now let me just ask you guys a quick question. Do you think that works?

Cheryl Shumake: It's so ineffective. The numbers of divorce within the Christian community are indicative of the fact of how ineffective that is. We never behavior-modify someone into following God. But if we teach people about the beauty of covenant, how to live in covenant, how to honor each other who are in covenant together, how to be married, how to do Ephesians, submit to one another, love one another, and so on and so forth, then we wouldn't have so much divorce. But if we just stand up and make a blanket statement, I don't think it's effective, and I think it can be hurtful for people who are experiencing real pain in their marriage and they're looking for help. Those who are abused and so forth, that list can go on and on.

Gayla Grace: I do think, too, that we can create enough guilt that that person is still going to follow through with what they were going to follow through with, but they're going to leave the church. Or maybe even leave God.

Ron L. Deal: Right, exactly. If this is His posture, if God hates divorce, does God hate me? That's not a welcoming spirit towards moving towards God. If it's a tactic and it's used in a harsh way, this phrase can become a tool that inadvertently moves people further away from God and further away from His community of faith.

Let's deal with the word "hate" real quick. We're going to unpack that biblically here in just a minute, but let's just deal with the English word "hate." That's a pretty strong word. When you hear that word, a few things come to mind: anger and condemnation. Anger is, "I hate you," how we would use it. Condemnation is "hate speech" as a good example of how clearly we're saying this is wrong; we don't want that.

But sometimes we use the word "hate" with compassion, where we might say to somebody, "Oh, I hate that for you," and we're just coming on their side around this particular thing. When we typically use the word "God hates divorce" in church, which of those are we really communicating? Anger, condemnation, or compassion?

Cheryl Shumake: Typically we're communicating condemnation and anger, but I think what God is communicating is compassion because what He's confronting are the things that we're talking about, the betraying of the covenant, the injustice. Because I know you're going to unpack why He said this and what was going on culturally, there were things going on. Women were socially vulnerable at that time, and divorce was seen as an injustice toward them because it left them destitute. So God was confronting that. He was confronting sin disguised as legality. So I think when God says He hates divorce, He hates the outcome of it, and that is what He's communicating and confronting.

Gayla Grace: Every time I hear "God hates divorce," those of us who have walked through divorce would also say, "I hate divorce." I hate what divorce does to people, what it does to families, what it does to kids. So if we can look at it from that viewpoint, then you can hear it without feeling the condemnation.

Ron L. Deal: Right, but we've got to do the mental work to get there because if it's being used as condemnation and that's what gets communicated, then nobody hears the compassion. The irony is, if anything, it is the compassionate heart of the Father on behalf of the people who are being mistreated, on behalf of the people who are having to suffer under a covenant-breaking situation, and He absolutely does not want that.

Let me just read something to you that I reached out to a trusted friend and Bible teacher, kind of mature in the faith, and I just asked her what this phrase, what impact it had on her life. This is what she said: "Yes, that phrase was a big reason I stayed in an abusive, dysfunctional marriage longer than I should have. I couldn't bear the thought of God hating me for getting divorced. It felt like I had no other option but to gut it out and stay to my own detriment as it turned out. By the time I was 27, I'd been married six and a half years to a pastor, who I was physically falling apart. I'd lost weight, I was depressed, I was struggling to parent a one-and-a-half-year-old son, all because I felt trapped in a marriage that I could not change or escape or get out of because God hates divorce."

At that point, that's not compassion. That's definitely now a prison cell message. God hates this, so you've got to stay and suck it up. I just imagine all the people who sort of got backed into that corner, whether anybody meant that for them or not, but that's where they ended up. Then they had a whole lot of suffering, they and their children, as a result of some extreme circumstances. It's really hard to take that.

Cheryl Shumake: It is. I remember speaking with someone going through a very similar situation and using "God hates divorce" and pointing them to the rest of that scripture, and it also says He hates those who cover their garment with violence. So if you are experiencing violence within this covenant relationship, He hates that too. That is not His will for you.

Ron L. Deal: Right. Okay, so let's keep going. Let's talk about the word "hate" from a biblical standpoint. The Hebrew root word means to be hateful, to scorn, to decrease in status. Now, that one's interesting; we're going to come back to that. To decrease in status, to abhor, detest, be hostile, or intensely dislike. "We don't hate; we're Christians; we just intensely dislike." It could also just simply mean to not love or be an enemy of someone else.

It's used in another place regarding marriage in Deuteronomy chapter 24, verse three: "If a man hates her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and he sends her out of his house." It goes on to talk about what happens in a divorce situation. So a man hates her and writes her a certificate. In other words, what he's saying is, "I don't see her as my wife." He diminishes her status. "I've decided this is not somebody that I love." It's sort of to make an enemy, that you want to separate yourself from enemies. You can begin to see all those little meanings of that word coming through in that particular phase.

This is important to flush out a little bit because in the New Testament, the Septuagint translates the Greek version of the Hebrew word from the Old Testament, the same word that we translate "hate," in another place in Luke chapter 14, verse 26. This is that passage we've all read and went, "What did Jesus just say?"

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother, his wife, his children, yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." Now, does Jesus really mean hate your mom and dad, hate your wife, hate your kids in comparison to Him? No, think about it through that root meaning. If you don't diminish the status of the things that you love besides Me, if you don't know where I rank, then you cannot really be my disciple.

I've often used the illustration that at night you walk outside and you see all the stars and they're gorgeous and you can just relish in that. And then in the daytime, I remember as a child the first time I walked out and looked up in the daytime and looked for the stars and I thought, "Where'd they go?" Well, they're still there. It's just that the bright sun is so huge that everything else is diminished in its status compared to the sun. That's the way our love for Jesus in Luke 14 is. That's what He's saying: "I'm the sun; everything else should be really small, all the other lights in your life should be really small compared to your love for me."

Got it. Now I understand the word "hate." So if God hates divorce, there's something about it that is not good. "I can't love this, I can't adore this, I can't elevate the status of this thing called divorce. I can't because there's something there that's not useful or helpful." Even if you just ponder it from that standpoint, now we're moving toward compassion, less towards condemnation, more towards the compassionate heart of the Father.

Gayla Grace: Like you said earlier, you've got to think through so much stuff to get to that level. That's not what our first instinct is. It takes a lot of effort.

Cheryl Shumake: I think if we keep in mind the character and nature of God in all things, then that will help us get there faster. If I remember that God is infinitely holy and exceedingly good at all times, nothing ever changes that. And that His love for me, nothing can change that status. I'm always loved. I'm never not in the state of being loved. And if I can also remember that I'm accepted in Him, then I can look at things through that lens versus through the lens of condemnation and hear my Father's compassion in that. It becomes more relational hearing those words, almost like "I hate this for you," versus "I hate you."

Ron L. Deal: Absolutely. And as you just said, if we look at Jesus, who said "if you've seen me, you've seen the Father," then we actually know the character of God, we know something about Him through who He is. We watch how He responds to people who were caught in sin, who made poor decisions, and how did He respond? With incredible mercy, with incredible patience, a loving spirit. He always called them forward, never said "you're stuck," never said "I hate you." That's the same character that we would have with God.

Now we're going to turn to Malachi 2, verse 16. We're going to read it and try to really dive into this. To our listener or our viewer, guess what? The whole conversation might just about take a turn, an unexpected turn at this point in the movie. You didn't see this coming based on our conversation. So let's read it. Malachi 2:16, Gayla, I know you've got one version in front of you. What are you reading from?

Gayla Grace: New American Standard. "For I hate divorce," says the Lord, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the Lord of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously."

Ron L. Deal: Okay, "For I hate divorce." There it is. Cheryl?

Cheryl Shumake: This is the Amplified Classic Edition and it reads, "For the Lord, the God of Israel says, 'I hate divorce and marital separation and him who covers his garment, his wife, with violence. Therefore keep a watch upon your spirit that it may be controlled by My Spirit, that you deal not treacherously and faithlessly with your marriage mate.'"

Ron L. Deal: Very good. Okay, we're going to read some other translations. I'm going to read a few. New Living Translation says, "For I hate divorce," says the Lord God of Israel. "To divorce your wife is to overwhelm her with cruelty." By the way, I think that's a nice little translation of "does violence to his own." For a long time, I thought that was like he's violent toward her. What Malachi is saying is you're undoing your own home, you're undoing your own life by doing this, and so you're bringing violence on yourself.

New English Translation says, "I hate divorce," says the Lord, God of Israel. King James Version says, "For the Lord, the God of Israel saith that he hateth putting away." Notice divorce carries the idea of putting away, creating distance in a relationship, and they actually bring that out in the King James. But again, it says He hateth putting away. God is the one who hates.

Now let's read the ESV: "For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her," says the Lord. Whoa. Wait a minute. Let me read that again. "For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her." Notice they don't use the word "hate"; they're getting the meaning behind the word "hate." "Does not love." The man does not love his wife. It's not God hating; it's the man who is doing the hating.

Interesting. Totally different. Let me read another one. Young's Literal Translation: "For I hate sending away," says Jehovah, God of Israel. Again, it's the man who is doing the hating, the sending away. The CSB, Christian Standard Bible, says, "If he hates the man and divorces his wife," says the Lord God of Israel, "he covers his garment with injustice." Again, that translation is saying it's the man who's doing the hating.

And then there's the NIV, which is a really interesting little story. Previously, the 1984 translation of the NIV said, "I hate divorce," says the Lord God of Israel. But the current 2011 translation says, "'The man who hates and divorces his wife,' says the Lord, 'does violence to the one he should protect.'"

They've changed. So which is it? Is it God doing the hating or is it the man doing the hating?

Cheryl Shumake: Now I'm going to tell you, CSB is the Bible translation that I use for personal study. I have not gone back to that particular passage of scripture. I've only had the CSB for the last three years. I have never, ever read "the man who hates his wife." That is extremely interesting and it definitely brings another layer to this conversation. It's less condemning and more God advocating for these marginalized women who were in vulnerable positions. "Stop mistreating the wife of your youth," basically.

Gayla Grace: I think we primarily hear "I hate divorce" and that God is the one saying that.

Ron L. Deal: It totally changes it. If it's not God, then this is no longer a fear passage to scare you into right living. This is, again, your God coming in protection and provision for those who are being mistreated. Those who have power—husbands in that context, all the way through Jesus's day—men absolutely had all the power in marriage and relationships. Even in the Greco-Roman world, they could literally decide that they want to divorce their wife, walk out, stand on the front porch, and make a declaration to anybody listening, "I'm divorcing her," and she was out.

There's no attorney, there's nobody to stand up for her, you don't have to go prove your case in court to finally divorce her. You just had that much power as a husband, which is ridiculous when we stop and think about it, but that was the context. So for God to say, "knock it off," you don't do that. Keep your promises. It's to speak to power and say don't create this injustice. You use your position, your place in this home to love and care for and serve other people. Now God's advocating, as you said. Now He's the one looking out for families rather than the one who's just standing back cold and condemning.

Gayla Grace: Doesn't that seem to come alongside more of who we know God to be, who we read of God's character? The story that just comes to mind for me is Hagar in the desert, and having Abraham's baby and then Sarah throwing her out and how God rescued her, not once but twice, and was right there for her. That is the God we know, that is the God who has done things for us in our time of need. To me, it makes so much more sense that that is how this passage would be interpreted. But that's sure not how we've learned it.

Cheryl Shumake: My question then, Ron, since you are leading this Bible study, is how do we begin to communicate this to the communicators? Sit down and talk about what God is really saying here, and then let's change our language so it really is an invitation to people who are hurting in these situations to understand that God is your banner, He's Jehovah Nissi, the Lord your banner. He's the place where you can rally and that you can come to and you can lay your hurts at because He's not for this at all, either.

Ron L. Deal: Excellent question, which is exactly one of my answers is that's why we're doing this podcast on this topic. That's why we're talking about it. I would encourage everybody who's listening right now who may have just went, "Wait, what?" Share this with a pastor, somebody in ministry. Let them listen and absorb.

And I just would encourage those people to sit down and read a few translations. Do a little study. I think you'll discover this is the prevailing understanding of this passage. The fact that the NIV changed dramatically from the 1984 to the 2011 translations and so many other translations are on board with this. I just think we've got to read it again because I think it's so in us, especially if you have any age to you at all. You learned it when you were a kid, you've been repeating it ever since, and every once in a while you hear a pastor just throw it out. And it's not right. I really don't think that's what the text says. It is the man who hates. This is another passage like the Deuteronomy one that is about how we treat one another poorly and we break covenant. And God is saying, "Don't do that."

Gayla Grace: I can almost hear it come back interpreted by saying, "Well, but you've just found a translation then that meets what you've done." And so that's where the fear is in trying to present this.

Ron L. Deal: Sure. And I'm so glad you brought that up because it's actually the next thing we were going to go to. When I have taught this before, and I have on a few occasions, there's inevitably somebody who's going, "Yeah, you're just trying to justify your own life circumstances." I get that. We don't want to be those people. We do want to read and study the text for what it says.

It is confusing, as the ESV Study Bible said. It's one of the harder passages to really interpret from a language standpoint. And so it's understandable why they ended up with "God hates divorce" in the first place. But given that, let's think it through again. Let's really look deep. There's been some advances in scholarship. By the way, people who think we got the Bible right at one version, look, scholars are working on translation stuff all the time and apparently in the last even 30 years there's been so many discoveries in the Middle East about how that help us translate with even more refinement. We just got to keep studying and growing and learning and laying this up against the character of Jesus and who we know Him to be and how He responds to people. And know we should never use any translation or any passage to justify sinful behavior.

I think one of the things that sometimes other ministry leaders that I've talked to have sort of their hesitation is to go, "Well, wait a minute, if we stop saying 'God hates divorce,' you know what's going to happen, Ron. Now everybody's going to get divorced because everybody's going to think it's okay and we can't scare them out of this anymore," which number one, I'm back to what Cheryl said. It doesn't work. And number two, nobody wants to get divorced. The it's not what people want. They want their marriage to work. It's the last resort. So nobody's eager to find a way. 1% or 2% of people are looking a way to justify themselves. Everybody else is trying to figure out how to make their family and marriage work.

Cheryl Shumake: I think the adjacent conversation to this is about leaders who throw that out as a tactic. We are not the Holy Spirit. We cannot—you can apply this to all conversations—our job is to train people, to disciple people to become more like Jesus, but it's the Holy Spirit's job to make that happen. He is the one that transforms hearts. So it doesn't matter what we say across the pulpit. Judas walked with Jesus and still betrayed him. Our job is just to speak the truth, to be a student of the word, to rightly divide the word of truth and disseminate that. People get to do with that what they will.

Our job is not to make people or scare people into a particular behavior. I think a sound biblical position on this is certainly not to minimize the seriousness and the sin of divorce, but also when it's not a biblical reason, I do think there is a caveat for that. But also not to weaponize it either to produce shame or guilt or to try to control people into a certain type of behavior. Because God does truth and grace; He does both.

Ron L. Deal: Right. If you read this as God calling out the man who just flippantly throws his wife away and gets another one, then you understand how serious God takes divorce. He is going, "No, this is not right. You don't treat people that way. A, you don't abandon your faith in me, and you don't be faithless towards the people with whom you've made covenants." Either way you look at this passage in Malachi 2, God is serious about divorce.

Let me just throw another caveat out there because I think sometimes our hesitation about needing to rethink how this text reads and what I do with it, sometimes we're so stuck just condemning divorce and divorced people that we just blanket everybody the same. To that end, let me read you another passage, a bit of a right turn here, but you'll see how it connects. Jeremiah chapter 3. Jeremiah is quoting God and God says, "Judah saw that I gave wayward Israel her divorce papers and sent her away because of her adulterous worship of other gods." Then he goes on to talk about how Judah was afraid God was going to do that to her. Wait a minute. God gave Israel her divorce certificate and sent her away because that's what divorce is, it's a sending away. Does that mean God got a divorce?

That's exactly what Jeremiah 3 says. And by the way, he's not the only one. Isaiah 54, Hosea chapter 2, and Ezekiel chapter 16 all repeat this simple idea that God got tired of faithless Israel. She adulterated herself spiritually toward Him and He sent her away. He divorced her. He almost did that to Judah. We go on and we discover in the prophets that He doesn't do that with Judah, thank God, because Jesus is the lion of Judah.

Wait. God is a reluctant divorcee? If you think all divorced people are the same, then you have to say that about God. I haven't heard that preached from the pulpit any time in my lifetime. Why don't we talk about this passage? Because we don't know what to do with it. If all divorce is terrible, horrible, and everybody's the same, whether you're the receiving end of that or the instigator, then we'd have to treat God in the same category. Does God hate himself? If God hates divorce, God hates himself. God hates his own circumstance. Maybe he does hate it. I'm sure God grieves deeply over His divorce of Israel, His divorce with His people. He grieves deeply over our divorces, over what happens to us in our life with the stuff we do to one another. He grieves deeply over that. Never does it mean you're condemned forever, you're an outcast, I'm not going to have anything to do with you, never want to see you again. Never is that implication drawn from these particular narratives.

Cheryl Shumake: I think it behooves us to mention that God is a reluctant divorcee, but He's still pursuing restoration even today. So He has a covenant that ruptured, but He's also in pursuit of redemption. I'm not saying that that should be translated to our lives personally, but I think what it does do is speak again to the heart of God. So even if you divorced and your divorce was considered an unbiblical divorce, God is still pursuing redemption with you. He's still pursuing relationship with you. I think it's important for us to mention that in case people think that we're not justifying divorce at all, by no means, but neither are we saying that the divorced person or the divorce circumstances are beyond God's ability to redeem because He's trying to redeem His own divorced situation.

Gayla Grace: And you know, to answer your question about why it's not talked about, I think it's because there is so much disagreement on this subject even among scholars. If you have read on this subject, you will find that there is a lot of disagreement on it, and it makes it difficult.

Cheryl Shumake: I have a question about that. I think there's discomfort too. We wrestle with the unknown things of God and we're not content with not knowing. One of the things I've always admired about Jewish rabbis is that they're okay with the mystery of God, what belongs to Him and Him alone. Unfortunately, the church is not always that way. We feel like we have to have an answer for everything. Sometimes it's okay to say, "This belongs to God." What we can teach, what we can preach, what we can unpack, what we can wrestle with, what we can bring questions to God about are the things that we don't know, but if in the end it's we don't know, what we have is enough.

Ron L. Deal: It's a good word. Let's try to pull some things together. I'm going to read a little statement that is sort of given my understanding at this point in my life. This is what I would like us to teach that comes out of Malachi 2 and all the other passages that we have about divorce in particular. I'd love for you to then react to it. Let me just lay it out there and then you guys tear it apart and let's just talk it through.

What if instead of the heavy tactic "God hates divorce" sort of tone, what if our message in the church generally was this: "God keeps His covenants and He expects us to keep ours. Do everything in your power to keep your covenant." And then we follow it up with a compassionate statement like: "God strongly disapproves of divorce because He knows what it does to His people, to families, to society. He has Himself experienced betrayal, repeated betrayal from His own people. He pursued and forgave over and over, but to no avail, so He finally acknowledged Israel's decision to break their covenant relationship and He sent her away. Before His divorce, He knew it was damaging and He certainly knows it after. And as a loving Father, He wants to protect His children from the pain and negative consequences of divorce. He doesn't hate divorced people or He would hate Himself. He's trying to provide for us, to protect us, protect us from ourselves in some cases, from consequences that we would bring on ourselves in selfishness. He wants to protect an innocent spouse."

The NIV says that the man who hates and divorces his wife does violence to the one he should protect. And the NLT says he overwhelms her with cruelty, and that's not right. So if you, like God, are an innocent victim of covenant breaking that led to a divorce, He's compassionate for your circumstances. If you, on the other hand, violated the covenant and you were like the men in Malachi 2 who were trading in their wives for younger women, then you need to repent of your actions. Own your stuff even if you're married again. Confess it. Seek forgiveness. Divorce is not an unforgivable sin. You might be able to reconcile; you might not, depending on your circumstances. But you need to at least acknowledge your sin and humble yourself before God. In either case, at the end of the day, the cross is still there for you and God's grace can still redeem your story.

Cheryl Shumake: I'm just reminded when I hear you say this that it is the love of God, it is the kindness of God that draws us to repentance. It is His grace that draws us to repentance. How great that grace is because He paid the price to save us from His own wrath. It's a magnificent, scandalous kind of grace. That would be something that would bring me to the table. This statement that you read, the shift in how we talked about divorce, may not necessarily stem the tide of divorce because people are people, people are broken, we are all sinners, as you said before. But what it might do is help people understand that we could sit at the table and there's grace here and we can talk about it. God still pursues the broken, He heals the wounded, He restores the repentant, and that can be your story as well. I just believe that what you just read just communicates something so very clearly that God does not define us by broken or breaking covenants, but by the covenant that Christ fulfilled, and what you read is the reminder of that.

Gayla Grace: Especially what touched me was when you said, "Yes, God hates divorce, but God doesn't hate divorced people." I think we forget to communicate that message. All we communicate is God hates divorce. And so that is what is heard. As Cheryl is saying, it's God's grace then that shows us God does not hate divorced people.

You know what else I think about, Ron? I think there has to be change in how this subject is taught in seminary. Wouldn't you want to be a fly on a wall and hear how this passage is taught in seminaries? Because that's where part of the change is going to have to take place in order for pastors to begin to communicate differently.

Ron L. Deal: Absolutely. For us to back up and really think about it and ponder the pastoral side of it. One of the thoughts, we'll kind of draw some of this to a close, at the end of the day if you pinned me down and said, "What does Malachi 2:16 say?" I'm not a Hebrew scholar. I'm not sure I know. I just know it is just as likely that it does not say God hates divorce as it is likely that it does say that. If it is the man who hates and divorces, it is about the man who is putting away, who is breaking covenant as the context seems to indicate.

Then it's still communicating a very strong message. God is a covenant keeper, He wants us to be covenant keepers, don't treat each other poorly. That's the heart of this thing coming through. The love of God, the protection of God, the provision of God for marriages, families, and relationships. Be faithful to each other like you're being faithful to Me. That's really obvious.

I can tell you another passage where I know what God hates. Let me read you this one. Proverbs 6:16: "There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination." We know this one, right? What are they? Haughty eyes, pride, "I look down on all you little peons over there." A lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, injustice. A heart that devises wicked plans, you're just looking to do bad. Feet that make haste to run to evil, "I want to be a part of that." A false witness who breathes out lies and one who sows discord among his brothers.

Now, we know what God hates. And by the way, isn't it ironic if you look at that list and think through, isn't that the stuff that brings about divorce? Haughty eyes, lying tongue, looking selfishness to do evil toward somebody else, doing things that are unjust to another person. That's the stuff that will bring about divorce, absolutely, in any particular marriage relationship. That's the stuff we should be saying God hates. We're so busy talking about God hates divorce that we don't back up and talk about the things that lead up to the divorce. The behaviors, the attitudes, the heart condition that leads to divorce. That's what I think we ought to be saying God hates, and then following it up with the compassionate "but He never hates you and there's always a plan, there's always a way, there's always a path." He's a covenant keeper. He's going to be faithful to you. Why don't you begin to be faithful to Him? I think that's a very different message, and families need to hear that as well.

Well, if we could just be a little more judicious about throwing around that phrase, I think the world would be at a better place. Even if that passage does say "God hates divorce," even if that's the best interpretation, I think we should be careful how we use it. Move away from the condemnation and more towards the compassionate understanding. But if you're listening or watching right now and that's you and you can kind of resonate with some of the things that have been said here about how that hung a dark cloud over your head for the rest of your life, I just want you to know God feels your pain. He's one of you. Think about that for a second. He's on your side in this whole thing, in the experience of how this hurts people and relationships. He has great compassion for you. He stands against the sin that may have brought about that, and if you're guilty of that, then repent, confess. It's okay. Find forgiveness. If you were the recipient of that in a rather innocent way and it was never your decision, then God's not against you. He's on your side. He wants to see you through. He wants to help and provide in the midst of your life as it is. Just know He's your friend, He's not your enemy.

Any closing remarks?

Cheryl Shumake: I don't think that I could add anything to what you have just said. I think that that is what people need to hear and remember most of all, that God is not your enemy, that He is for you, that He is with you, and your divorce was not the end of your story. If that was you, there's great passion for you and intentionality that God has for you and compassion for you as well. So if you can go nowhere else with the pain and the trauma of divorce, please know that you can come to the cross. You really can.

Gayla Grace: And that regardless of why a divorce happens, that God's grace is always there and He wants to redeem and restore relationships.

Ron L. Deal: Ladies, thanks for being with me for our fun little Bible study today. I appreciate it.

Gayla Grace: You're welcome. This was great. You should do it again.

Cheryl Shumake: Enjoyed it. Yes.

Ron L. Deal: Maybe we will, who knows. Thank you for being with me. Take care.

Well, to you our listener or viewer, thanks for being with us. I'm sure you'll have questions or thoughts. If you want to reach out to us, we'd love to hear from you. And if you think you could share this with somebody who would benefit and maybe help them think through it in a fresh way, then feel free to share this podcast with them.

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Okay, next time on FamilyLife Blended®, I'm talking with Debbie Alsdorf about 10 things she would do over as a stepmom. This was a great conversation. The wisdom of hindsight that she has was fantastic. You don't want to miss it. That's next time on FamilyLife Blended®.

I'm Ron Deal. Thanks for listening or watching and thank you to our production team and donors who make this podcast possible. FamilyLife Blended® is part of the FamilyLife Podcast Network, helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.