Every Man’s Battle Podcast

Host: Welcome to the Every Man’s Battle Podcast brought to you by New Life Ministries. In this podcast, you’ll hear honest conversations and encouragement for living a life of sexual integrity. In every episode, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist JJ West and Licensed Professional Counselor Doug Barns break the silence around sexual integrity struggles that millions of men face but rarely discuss openly. Each episode offers practical strategies and genuine hope to dissolve the shame and isolation that keeps men trapped in destructive cycles. Let's get to today’s episode.

JJ West: Welcome back to the Every Man's Battle Podcast. We are so glad that you've joined us for what is our final episode of Season 3 of the podcast. It’s a little bit bittersweet, but we are excited to continue our conversation from last week where Laura Mangum McDonald joined us to talk about when she's triggered, how do I respond? How do I not make it worse, which seems like so often what happens?

We had a great conversation last week beginning to dive into these topics. Today, we're going to go deeper. We're also going to spend some time giving some very practical advice. I want to encourage you to get out some paper, pull your journal out, or get a notes section open on your phone as a way to take some notes on what we talk about today so that you can go back and reflect on what we say so it's not just information.

It's not just knowledge. We talk about it all the time: knowledge alone is insufficient for change. We don't want this to be, "Oh, that was a really cool podcast I listened to." We want this to be, "I listened to that podcast, and here are five things that I'm going to work on this week or this month to start changing the way I respond when she's triggered."

Doug Barns: Because if we don't use information after 30 days, it slips out anyway. We've got to use it in the first 30 days. That's what the wives want to hear when the guys go to something. They want to hear, "Hey, I learned this." But when the wife asks, "What'd you learn?" and you say, "It was really good, powerful, and challenging," that's not intentional. Intentional could be our t-shirt.

JJ West: Let's jump back in. We want to give very practical "what to do," but maybe let's start with what not to do. What are the things that guys typically do when she's triggered that are not helpful, and why?

Laura Mangum McDonald: I've come up with a list because I'm all about people being redeemed and marriages being rebuilt. We can do it. Here are the 12 things men do that accidentally re-trigger. I don't believe most triggers are intentional. Most triggers are a response of their own shame where they're feeling attacked, so they retaliate or try to intellectualize.

The first one is explaining too fast. I'm just trying to solve the problem and get to the bottom of it. I'm just trying to give you information. She's saying she didn't even ask that, but I'm trying to help out. Let's hurry up and get done with this so we can get it behind us. We don't get it behind us; we integrate it into what's happened to us. It's a death of our marriage. Would we ever not talk about a death? No. So, there's no speed dial on this. We don't need to move fast. Moving faster does not help.

JJ West: We need to be intentional.

Laura Mangum McDonald: That's our vocab word for today. Don't explain too fast because her nervous system is only hearing, "I'm a burden. I'm in the way. You just want to rush this. You don't have time for this." That's another crazy-making spin because he's saying, "Yes, I do. That's why I'm here explaining it." And she's saying, "I just don't feel soothed by this." Then she eventually gets counter-triggered. She either goes back at him or she walks off. That doesn't work.

JJ West: So, slow down.

Laura Mangum McDonald: Slow down. The greatest thing they can do is be with her. Isn't that what Jesus did in the Gospels? He is with us. When we know we're not alone, we're going to get through it.

JJ West: There's a part of me that says to be intentional. I'm intentional about showing up and giving you what you need at a tempo that works for you.

Laura Mangum McDonald: It's called being attuned. I'm attuned to you. Again, most guys don't deliberately do this. Even when I'm working with my betrayed wives, they'll see it. I see their hearts. So, it's being attuned, and we have to learn how to be attuned. It can feel so shaming, but join the rest of us. We're all on the struggle bus. Number two is logic-fixing. He will say, "Here's why that doesn't make sense," and they want to argue little details.

Even if she is completely wrong on how you know something happened, don't go there. You might feel you need to tell the truth, but that comes later. Meet her in her pain because if a fire broke out right here, we'd all have three different perceptions of it. She's explaining it while her prefrontal is already off and she's already flooded. Don't argue. Just meet her in her pain. Join with her.

JJ West: When you meet her in her pain instead of trying to logic it away, it allows her then to calm down and have the prefrontal cortex come back online. Now the temperature has lowered enough that you can do some of that. Actually, you mentioned that you had said blank, and I just want you to know this. But it feels safe to talk about it then for her, and she has the ability to perceive it. Rather, if her prefrontal cortex is offline and you're trying to use logic and reason to explain away why what she feels doesn't make any sense, it's not going to have any impact. It's not going to connect with her.

Laura Mangum McDonald: I explain it to the guys this way. If my seven-year-old granddaughter came in and she fell down and she's crying and telling me what happened, and say I saw her, I'm not going to say, "No, your fall wasn't that way." And she's sitting there crying and I'm saying, "Ellie, no, let's talk about the truth of what happened here." But that's what happens. Meet her in her pain and then her nervous system is going to pick that up. It's another building block of trust. He meets me in my pain. That's all I want.

JJ West: Again, going back to another point, he doesn't have to fix it.

Laura Mangum McDonald: In fact, he really can't.

JJ West: That's true, but we're superheroes, right? We think our superpower is to fix it.

Doug Barns: Take that cape off.

JJ West: I know, but we learn how to accomplish, overcome, tackle, build, and conquer. Outside of our front door, that works. Inside of our front door, that only makes it worse. So, it's changing my mindset. Who is this person I'm speaking with here? It's the one that I say I love the most. Well, then treat her that way.

Laura Mangum McDonald: It's being vulnerable enough to believe that you're the one she loves the most. What she was attracted to, she saw in those things in the earlier relationship—that vulnerability before the core patterns started to tread on them and hurt each other. It's that sensitivity. She's saying, "You're the guy I fell in love with. Where are you?" Really, that's what she's screaming. "Where's the man I knew? He wouldn't do this to me." So, it's hearing that.

JJ West: What's the next one?

Laura Mangum McDonald: Tone. "What's wrong? Nothing's wrong. I said I'm okay. I'm here." The tone can just flatline us. Those facial expressions, that's number four.

JJ West: A harsh tone, a dismissive expression.

Laura Mangum McDonald: It's like, "Begrudgingly, I'm here. I'm here. What else do you want? I come home." I have several mirrors in my office and I'll say, "Turn around. I want you to look at your face. Look at the tension." I'm watching you and you have an extra muscle here in your jaw where you have gripped your jaw. I always use examples of children. Would you ever talk to a little child like that? Because that is a little hurt girl. Pull back the curtain.

JJ West: The micro-defensiveness we've called it. Crossed arms, okay, right. She's talking and he's going like that. I'll say to him, "Do you see that you're totally walled off?"

Laura Mangum McDonald: We can be dismissive with our tone, our facial expression, and also our body posture. Pay attention to all of that. Is it open and receptive to hear, not here, but to hear her heart?

JJ West: I need to be before I ever sit down into that. I need to have my heart posture ready to receive what's happening in this moment that could be very tender.

Laura Mangum McDonald: Going back to the "I've heard all this," why would she come and say it again if she gets an idea that you've heard it? We're not going to repeat things like that if we're not sure if we've really been heard or not. So, how are you showing up to actually hear something that she doesn't think you're hearing?

JJ West: I had that just the other day and I asked the guy, "What do you think her motive is in repeating this?" Exactly. What he was doing was his core pattern wound of never being enough in the family, no matter what he did. She's wanting to come close to you. She desperately wants to become close to you and she needs the reassurance.

Laura Mangum McDonald: That is so hard for guys to hear because they're in that wounded place, that little boy place, and they hear, "What do you mean she wants to come close to me? She's yelling at me." No, she's not. I'm sitting right here. She's not yelling at you.

JJ West: It's just like a child throwing a tantrum. They need you. But they're so dysregulated. She's dysregulated and really, it's a heart cry going, "Why don't you love me?" She's pleading. That's what she's doing.

Laura Mangum McDonald: Through that little boy wound, we can't see it because I'm now in my security safe brain. I've got to stay safe, and the way I stay safe is keeping my distance because all his alarms are going off in his nervous system. What's the next one?

JJ West: Pacing, standing over her. He gets real demonstrative, especially if he's a big guy and she's a petite woman. These big guys can be 6'3", 240 pounds, but they feel four years old. I'll ask, "How old do you feel right now?" He'll say, "Young and wounded." But your body is taking up—it's huge and it's overpowering and it's threatening. I would imagine that's how you've used your body over the years to push back when you're intimidated. She's 5'3", 130 pounds. She's intimidated.

Laura Mangum McDonald: I want to speak to that for a second because I think it's really important. A lot of guys will hear that and go, "Well, she knows I'm never going to hurt her. I've never laid a hand on her. I've never threatened her." You betrayed her. Why would she be physically intimidated by me? I've never given her any reason to be afraid of me. Let's go back to things not to say and do. Part of our brain that lights up from physical pain and emotional pain light up in the same area.

For guys, I think it's important to reflect back on when you were a kid. Some of you, maybe your dad never physically abused you, but there was still that intimidation because he was so much bigger than you. He was so much more intense. All it took was a look or a step forward, and you knew it could come at any time.

To be able to recognize that you can logically say your dad won't hurt you, but there was still that "better stay in line" feeling. That's the feeling that she's feeling in the present. Even though you could argue you've never harmed her physically, she's feeling that because neurologically it's in the same place in the brain, and because there is a power differential going on when you're standing up and loording over, looming over someone.

JJ West: I'm going to cower down. Even if he knew for sure, "I don't even understand that, it doesn't make any sense," what would keep him from being curious and saying, "But tell me, how does that make you feel? I had no idea. I would never want you to be afraid of me."

Laura Mangum McDonald: I want to make sure that I am communicating safety for you, that I'm a safe person for you. If that means I'm going to sit down next to you as opposed to walking around the room, then I'm going to do that. If that means that I'm going to lower my voice instead of booming, I'm going to do that—not because it's a new rule I have to follow, but because I'm wanting you to feel safe enough to draw near to me.

JJ West: That is embodied hope. That is secure attachment. When we know all of me can show up, all of you can show up, and I can be vulnerable enough to tell you these parts that scare me or frighten me and you move towards my pain and go, "I never want to hurt you." The ground that's gained right there, the trust—it just gives me chills, the trust that's built up.

Laura Mangum McDonald: You were talking a minute ago. "You know I would never do that." One is a place of woundedness. When he sits down and says, "I don't ever want you to be scared of me. I don't ever want my voice to get in the way of your healing." That's a place of strength, not a place of woundedness. I think I'm doing the right thing when I'm saying she knows I would never do that. It's like, whoa, timeout. Defensiveness. It's that little kid coming out wanting to defend his position versus getting down and proximal and just letting her know, "I don't ever want to raise my voice to you. I don't ever want to scare you."

JJ West: Let me even give you the flip side of that from a betrayed wife. Praise God that we've restored. But I know that as I was doing my own healing and Rod was still acting a fool, I told him, "I can love you the most when you love me the least." And that's a position of power. For me, I wasn't poor little me. I was saying, "I can choose to love you because love chooses," and that's power.

Laura Mangum McDonald: It goes both ways. The way we do that, the way we are able to love you when you're loving me the least, is that I recognize God has met all of my needs in Christ Jesus. I don't need you to show up in a certain way for me to be okay. I want you to, but I don't need you to because God has already met all of my needs in Christ Jesus.

Now I can show up and minister to you instead of trying to manipulate you to give me something that I want. As the wife who is maybe further along in the healing process than the husband can love him even though when he's the least lovable because her needs have been met in Christ. And the husband, when she is coming at him with all kinds of vile anger because of the betrayal, I can love you and hold that for you, again because God has met all of my needs in Christ Jesus. I don't need you to show up for me in a certain way. I want you to, but I don't need you to. It frees me to do that.

JJ West: And the power in that—and then the body of Christ—because when we are flatlined and we understand that I have no "do" to give you, it's my "who" that's being loved. We realize we are loved when we have nothing to give back. That's what the guys need to know. That's what they need to get out of those groups.

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Laura Mangum McDonald: We could preach all day on that. Minimizing the language. "We've talked about this how many times? That was two years ago now. Are you going to keep on bringing it up?" Don't ever say that. We're not putting a statute of limitations on these conversations. There's no expiration date. Or, "I already said I'm sorry. Can't you just get over it?" No, we're not saying that because all of that devalues where you are. All it does is rip her open again and she will either leave physically or leave emotionally. It's unsafe. It says more about my wounding and not what we're trying to do here in this moment.

JJ West: Silence without reassurance. That's where I came up with the acronym WET. Because I would sit there and Rod would look at me and it was like the most vulnerable—the wife puts herself out there. "I'm telling you what I need." Crickets go on for years. For those who may not be familiar, WET is Words, Eyes, Touch. These are the ways that we connect.

Laura Mangum McDonald: So, "I hear what you're saying. I'm giving you my eyes. I'm not searching for how I'm going to deliver by putting it together here. I'm staying with you." And then I'm going to walk over and go, "I'm sorry, babe," with asking first.

JJ West: Asking permission. There's some couples that they're not there yet where that feels safe, and we understand that. "Can I touch you? Is it okay for me to hold your hand?" I'm available to offer that.

Laura Mangum McDonald: And I would say to Rod, "No, stand right there." And he would honor and respect that.

JJ West: But you're available to offer that if we're at a place where that would be comforting, where that would be healing.

Laura Mangum McDonald: But that takes humility to go, "What do you need here? What do you need? How can I help you?"

JJ West: Humility says, "What do you need?" Pride says, "I already know what you need. I can give it to you."

Laura Mangum McDonald: I always say don't give pride a ride. Make space for grace. Because we're always at that V—which way we're going to go.

JJ West: To the point about our eyes, we hear all the time, "Eyes are the windows to the soul." So, it's not just, "Oh, I'm looking at you because I have to give you my eyes." It's what's in my heart that's coming through my eyes.

Laura Mangum McDonald: Our nervous system can pick up that. It is such a superpower. We know no words have to be spoken. We can feel the tension or we can feel the invitation. Kind eyes, soft face.

Rapid questioning. "Exactly. No, exactly. What did I do wrong? So, tell me what." It puts the onus on her that she has to defend her case or present her case. If she doesn't present it, he'll go, "No, I don't accept that." And where does she go with that? It's a double bind. So, instead of, "Tell me what I did this time," come with, "I know here's what I did wrong."

JJ West: Or come with, "I honestly don't—help me understand." That's very different than, "Tell me what I did this time. Why do you keep on doing this? You just want to find—no matter what, you just want to use your words. You just want to pick at me. You just want to beat me up again. Just want to tear me down."

Laura Mangum McDonald: Emotional collapse by him. This is the worst. You begin to tell him, and then he just—it's almost like Frosty the Snowman. He melts right there. He becomes the victim.

JJ West: So, what started as we're talking about her pain, now it's about my pain. And now we've ignored your pain. You were triggered, which triggered your pain that was there that I caused. But when I'm doing that, when I'm just, "Oh, I'm the victim. I'm the little boy," now it's all about my pain and I'm not tending to your pain.

Laura Mangum McDonald: Many wives, according to where they are in their recovery for recognizing they did not cause this—you're not that powerful. I'm going, "If you were that powerful, you would have prevented him ever doing this, ever acting out." You're not that—that's his—you cannot feel guilty for the harm he caused you. That's his responsibility. So, that's a tough one. "I can't do anything right. No matter what, it's never enough for you." That's that victim.

Rushing to closure. "Are we good now? Good now, right? Right? I'll be able to come up—we'll be able to go—hey, we'll be able to start sleeping in the same bed again, right? Or, you know why I did this—" It's just like—and I tell guys, I go, "Do not reduce your value to this functional intimacy. You are so much more than that." But that's what they do. "I did this right. I'm going to turn it on my tickets. Here's all my tickets. I got every one of them." We're not looking for a grade on a turned-in assignment. This is a lifelong journey together. Recovery is not a response to an event; it's a lifestyle for all of us.

JJ West: Let's talk a little bit, just in the time remaining, on what can he do? What can he say? What are some key things? The script, if you will, while you're making it your own, while you're adding in your own flavor, your own voice. It becomes organic over time. I think one of the things we've already said this, but I'm just going to spell it out here, is that you show up and you say, "I'm here. You're not alone. I'm here with you in your pain."

Laura Mangum McDonald: Nothing more required. And I give guys permission to go, "I want to help you. Please tell me specifically what you need." "I don't know." "Okay, then I will wait here until you figure it out, if that's okay." And I can offer suggestions as well. There's one that goes, "That makes sense. Do you want closeness or answers right now?" Give her the options. Don't say I didn't say that because, no, you don't have the right to make the decision for her because of her betrayal. Decisions were made that she had no say in. So, it's huge.

I've just got some one-liners that they are multi-purpose. You memorize these two, you can use them all the time. Seriously, I'm being serious. "I see this feels scary right now. I'm here. Do you want me to show you the text? Do you want me to—do you want to see the email? Do you want to ask me more questions about it? No expiration date."

JJ West: And the way, the texture of how my eye contact and my humility, my voice—I'm leaning in, I'm on her level or below her level. I want to—what I tell guys is learn to speak her language, not yours. Because when I'm talking with you, I can talk a certain way and it's cool. But if I talk to my wife the way I talk to you, she's not going to hear a word. That's your own language. Exactly. That's what I mean. I'm not talking about several books that we all know. What I'm talking about is: Do I know how to speak to my wife's heart? To relate to her. It's she has a language all her own. I chose to do that. Not everybody chooses to do that, and that's okay. But I want my heart to be heard by her, so I'm learning how to speak her language.

Laura Mangum McDonald: That's true emotional intimacy. Once guys get a hold of that experience, it's what God created us to be—to be fully known.

JJ West: I'm going to throw out another one. Throw it out. "I'm sorry that my past behavior has created this present reality for you." When she's triggered right now in the present, "I'm sorry that my past behavior has created a scenario where this happens and your this is your new reality that you live in." It didn't say anything. It's "I'm sorry that because of what I did, now your new reality is you walk past—you go to the mall and you walk past Victoria's Secret and you're triggered. And that's on me. This smell triggers you. That hotel advertisement." Exactly. Any of those things. "I'm sorry that my past behavior creates this new reality that we now live in." That is important for her to feel seen and heard now in the moment.

Laura Mangum McDonald: And that's the MVP. If the guy wants to be the MVP, that's the way to do it because he's saying, "I harmed you. I'm committed. Whatever it takes, I will do it." Women, the nervous system says, "Okay." Not that it's all one and done, but that catapults us forward, huge leap in recovery. I think here's another one you can use in multiple situations. "I should have communicated better. I can hear you're scared. On this one, I'm on my way home and staying on the phone with you."

Wives feel crazy, and so we have to do so much work going, "You're not crazy. You're responding. Your nervous system is working properly. It's doing what it's supposed to do." If I were to—I always use the example of a smoke alarm—every time it went off, if I started hitting it with a bat, it's working. It's doing what it's supposed to do. So, she's not crazy. So, stay on the phone. He's saying, "Whatever it takes, I'm not leaving you. I'm here."

JJ West: Which brings me to another one, which is to ask that question. "What do you need from me right now to feel safe? What do you need from me right now to feel seen? What do you need from me right now to allow your nervous system to calm down?" Proactive.

Laura Mangum McDonald: If he senses that she's upset, don't start trying to do something nice. "I'm going to clean the house." Clean the countertops, wash those dishes, throw that laundry—look, I'm the man. No, lean in and go, "Are you okay? You look a little sad."

JJ West: Or you seem tense. "Can you tell me what's going on right now?" Isn't that what we would do with our best friend? Well, that goes back to speaking her language, too. Because if it were me and my best friend, I'd say, "Dude!" But I'm being serious that the language I would speak with my best friend would not be the same language I would speak with my wife because our relationship is different than it is that.

Laura Mangum McDonald: You have this special language. That's your language. And you have inside jokes and have all that. Of course. So, we want to personalize that.

JJ West: All of these things that we're talking about, all these scripts that we're offering, it really comes down to this: that when she's triggered, it's an opportunity for a trust deposit or a trust withdrawal. If I stay present, if I'm being intentional and proactive, if I'm humble and owning, if I'm learning her language and offering it to her, I'm making trust deposits when those triggers happen. But if I am dismissive, I am angry, I am avoidant, I am demanding, all of those things are withdrawing trust. And so now that trigger is being amplified. It's being magnified by how I respond. And we want to use all these because the triggers are going to keep happening, but we want to take it as an opportunity to build trust.

Laura Mangum McDonald: Triggers don't like fade away. They're there because they're designed by God and they're doing what they're supposed to do. Anything can be a trigger. But they're not going to go away if you don't talk about them or ignore them. No matter how many nice things you do, niceties, they never sweep them away. We deal with them head-on, and the beautiful thing is the relationship can become so much deeper.

JJ West: And as I do that, as I show up consistently as a good man, if I show up consistently with humility, making those trust deposits when triggers happen, it actually allows her nervous system to heal. It creates a space for her nervous system to heal. It's a promise. It's God's design. Really heavy stuff.

Laura Mangum McDonald: Do we have time to mention one more thing? A bonus? To know how to say you're sorry. Maybe that will segue into something in the future. Just because you didn't mean to do it doesn't excuse you for apologizing for it. And how many times do we get caught up in, "Well, I didn't mean to. I didn't mean it the way you're taking it." It doesn't matter. She's hurt anyway. She's saying she's hurt. Proper way: "Babe, I had no idea. I did not mean—but if that's the way you took it, okay, tell me more about it because I don't want to do that. And thank you for letting me know and being honest with me to let me know. Now I can do something about it."

JJ West: Well, that goes back to what we talk about at EMB: we all have blind spots. And that's sometimes—not every time, we all know it's not every time—but sometimes that's a blind spot where I need some help in understanding. "I thought I was doing blah, blah, blah, but really it was S-G-H. Oh gosh, I don't want to do that." And so help me understand so that I now can go back and put that in my journal, and now I'm writing about, "When can I come up with the last time I did this outside of this situation? That's me doing my work so now I can come to you and say, 'You know what? I'm getting it now because I discovered that in December of last year, yeah, I did it here with you and when the kids were here, and I did it in November over Thanksgiving with the family here.'" I'm starting to understand it at a deeper level that gives traction to the next time this situation happens. I'm not going to S-G-H. I'm being more healing in the way that I respond and not react.

Laura Mangum McDonald: But if you weren't open to that willingness to understand that, that willingness gives you an experience. So, it's not saying you're guys, it's not saying you're wrong. It's saying I need something.

JJ West: I need something and I don't see myself clearly. I don't see myself with 100 percent accuracy. Just recently, my kids were sharing with me what it feels like to ride in the car with me on long trips.

Doug Barns: Wow, was this out of the blue or were you in control?

JJ West: It was out of the blue. It was a family intervention, but it turned into—my initial response was how dare you? I'm a perfect driver. I'm a very good—I'm an excellent driver. I went straight to that, and then I had to pause and go, wait, they're trying to tell me about their feelings. They're trying to crawl up in your lap.

And so for me to then go, "I don't want to drive, even if I didn't intend to, I don't want to drive in such a way that makes you feel afraid." And I always use the same illustration: if I step on your toe, it hurts. If I intend to step on your toe, it's going to hurt. But if I accidentally step on your toe, guess what? Still hurts. Didn't mean to do it. I didn't mean to do it, and so I still apologize for the pain that I inflicted even though I didn't mean to.

Anyway, it's been a great discussion. Laura, thank you so much for joining us.

Laura Mangum McDonald: Thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure, such an honor.

JJ West: And guys, thanks for sticking with us through three whole seasons of the Every Man's Battle Podcast. Doug and I talk about it all the time; we're amazed that we get to do this. We're amazed that anybody's listening. Thank you for listening. Thank you for continuing to support what we're doing. Continue to send in your questions, continue to send in your comments, continue to take what we're talking about and apply it in your small groups, in your sustained victory groups, with your buddies. Continue to apply what we're talking about and especially what we talked about in these last two episodes, applying it in your relationship with your wife so that together we can continue to walk in integrity. Thanks, guys.

Host: Thanks for listening. This podcast is one of many ways we can encourage and help you. If you're looking for more help, visit us at newlife.com or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. To receive bonus content exclusively for EMB podcast email subscribers, send an email to embpodcast@newlife.com with the words "bonus content" in the subject line. If you have a comment about this podcast, we'd love to hear from you too. Drop us a line at embpodcast@newlife.com. And please remember to review, like, and share the podcast as it helps others find us. See you next week.