Every Man’s Battle Podcast

New Life: Welcome to the Every Man's Battle podcast, brought to you by New Life Ministries. In this podcast, you'll hear honest conversations and encouragement for living a life of sexual integrity. In every episode, licensed marriage and family therapist JJ West and licensed professional counselor Doug Barnes break the silence around sexual integrity struggles that millions of men face but rarely discuss openly. Each episode offers practical strategies and genuine hope to dissolve the shame and isolation that keeps men trapped in destructive cycles. Let's get to today's episode.

JJ West: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Every Man's Battle podcast. Thanks again for tuning in. Today is a very special day. We are so excited because not only are we covering a topic that I think is incredibly important for the audience, which is when she's triggered, how do I respond? How do I not make it worse? That's a topic that comes up regularly in couples walking through recovery.

But we're also really excited because as you can see, for those who are watching on YouTube or the video portions of our podcast, you can see that we are joined by a very special guest, Laura Mangin-McDonald, friend of the show. She's been on before many times, and we're so glad to have you back.

But what you may not know is that Laura is a rock star. You don't realize what you're getting in having Laura join the podcast. She is a presenter at Restore, which is the workshop for women who've been betrayed by those who are acting out sexually. She is a co-presenter with me at the Intimacy and Marriage workshop, a guest speaker on New Life Live, as well as author of three books. She has walked countless couples through the recovery process and has certainly helped couples deal with this very topic over and over again. So thank you again for joining us.

Laura Mangin-McDonald: Thanks, guys. I've been counting down the days to get here. I love hanging out with you all. Thank you for having me.

JJ West: Anytime. When we're tackling this topic, it is important to go back. We did a few episodes in season one, episode 10, which is the impact of acting out our acting-out behavior on our wives. Episodes 21 and 22, where we talked about building intimacy and destroying intimacy. And then earlier this season, season three, episodes two and three, we talked about the role of empathy in recovery. Any and all of those episodes would be helpful to go back if you've not listened to them to listen to them the first time, but also if you have listened to them, just as a refresher as we now talk about what do I do because it does happen. It happens frequently. Doug, can you tell us what's the tension when we're talking about her being triggered and my response?

Doug Barnes: The way that it comes across is that I'm bad. I'm in trouble. All of this is my fault, and so I'm inadequate. It's like, "Oh, gosh, here we go again." All kinds of negative statements. The negative narrative starts to kick in of, "Uh-oh, how am I going to sit through this for the next hour?" We need to... but that's the tension. The five words that we all hate to hear: "Honey, we need to talk." What happens bodily when we hear those words? Well, it oozes out of us and it comes out not in a loving, "I want to hear your pain" sort of way, but in a very defensive, often tense way where it's like, "I don't know what's happened, so I'm wanting to make this land softly and land quietly and to keep the peace. Honey, let's not raise our voices." And that's a very unhealthy way to approach this.

JJ West: It might be also helpful just to talk about for those in the audience that may not be clear on what we even mean by triggered. So Laura, can you tell us what is a trigger and maybe what isn't a trigger, just so that we're all on the same page when we're talking about it?

Laura Mangin-McDonald: I would love to. You know what I'd like to do first is read this verse that I read to the Restore ladies because this is what triggers. I hadn't seen this until last year. It's Psalm 55:12-13. It says, "It is not an enemy who taunts me. I could bear that. It's not my foes who so arrogantly insult me. I could have hidden from them. Instead, it is you, my equal, my companion and close friend."

It just gives me chills. Doesn't that sum up betrayal? So the trigger is the man who is supposed to love you has harmed you. Our body has a neurological response and even if I want to... because I've been through betrayal. Even if you want to stop it, we can't manage the nervous system going, "You are in danger."

It's a normal response to an abnormal situation. But then when he... as Doug as you were talking about his response, all I could think of is how so many men shrink into this little boy. Just as you are triggered, and I'm not excusing their behavior, they're triggered, too. They just start to get flooded with shame and they just feel like, "I'm bad. No matter what I do is not enough. You just want to find everything that's wrong and it never will be enough." And then of course, we know how that goes. That is so much of the start of my work, to get them to stay pursuing them, to stay present in the moment to be able to help process what's happening in that dysregulation of my nervous system. That's what God intended it to be. Okay, so how can I be a co-conspirator in that healing?

But it's so... if they try to treat their symptom of responding in a very sincere way, which I've seen that, versus getting down to the shame that's driving it, that's where they get... and I love what you all do at EMB because you get right down to the root of that shame. Something I wrote down here is, your wife's not trying to punish you; she's trying to connect with you. She desperately wants to trust you, but when she's met with defensiveness, her heart shatters.

JJ West: And we see that as something offensive to us rather than the heartfelt ownership of what she's trying to do, which is just say, "I just want you to be safe."

Laura Mangin-McDonald: "I'm trying to move close to you to connect," and he's bowing up or he becomes the victim.

JJ West: Well, because what we're seeing doesn't... we're not interpreting what we're seeing as she's trying to be close to me, she's trying to connect. We see it as she is attacking me because she's angry, she's loud, she's calling me all kinds of names, whatever. And so I'm interpreting that as the same old message that I'm used to, which is I'm bad, I'm not good enough, I failed in some way. And I can't fail.

Laura Mangin-McDonald: And don't you guys see more often than not... because I've even brought the guy's toolkit for them today. Things they can say that are going to be so validating. But she desperately wants to connect. And once he is in touch with his stuff, his shame, he can ride the wave with her. It's co-regulation, not information. That's what we want to do.

JJ West: We want to get to that: how does he respond? But before that, what causes these triggers? How does this come about?

Laura Mangin-McDonald: Well, it comes about one because of the design of our body. We don't have to teach a baby to cry. We come wired to be alert to the sensation in our body triggers an emotion of and then babies cry, then we learn how to talk to say our needs. So the first is that line: the person that we trusted who to protect us has harmed us. We're on high alert. What are we... in our own home where we're supposed to be safe is where we're on high alert.

So then our body follows the way that it's wired. The cortisol shoots through the body, the energy, and or the wife will vacillate too. But then she'll go, "Oh, it's me. I've tried to do everything for you. Why wasn't I enough for you? I can't..." I mean, she's devastated. So the trigger is an absolute neurobiological normal response to an abnormal situation.

But then when she might see him using his phone, right? And then of course if he does something like this... "What?" Guys, don't do that. Don't. No. Because it just makes them look... and please, do not erase. Because if you erase the information, you've lost any chance of credibility that you had. Anything that even hints of hiding is going to be a trigger. But when they erase it, there's now no evidence to go back and that's the worst. At least the wife would rather see it than have you...

JJ West: Right, because as we say at the workshop, human nature is to fill in the blank with worst-case scenario. So even if what you're erasing is bad, if you erase it, the blank that you leave behind is going to be filled in with worse than what the actual thing is.

Laura Mangin-McDonald: Because then it's her palette to write on. And she's again responding as God designed her body. Because she's already used to... as much as she wants to be close and connect, she's on high alert going, "I'm not going to be stupid again. I'm not going to be a pushover again. I'm going to be..." because there's this more information means more safety. And it doesn't. But in our mind we believe that. Yeah, because we know that we try to prepare as much as we can, but they become hyper-focused. And I get it. So using the phone or the laptop, like technology, that can be a trigger. Hiding can be a trigger. A smell can be a trigger. I'm working with someone right now who her husband has been just horrible and he's come home with a certain cologne smell on him. Not good. I call it the trigger-versary. When you're getting ready to come around on your one year, if you're still working on things, our body knows what our mind can't comprehend. It's crazy.

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JJ West: Let's talk just a little bit about why we tend to respond poorly when she's triggered. What is going on for the guy that he tends to respond with something less than helpful? Can you speak to that a little bit, Doug?

Doug Barnes: Some of that is shame because if I am already shame-based, then when that part of me gets triggered in my own limbic system, then that's going to be what comes out. Men typically want to be accomplishers, outcome-oriented, fixers, the solution. I've this past week I've heard it probably three or four times just, "We didn't come to any resolution, so it didn't work." And I'm going, but that's not resolution is not the goal. It's the connection is the goal. And of course, then you get the deer-in-the-headlights look.

But in Scripture it says, quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to fix, and then slow to be angry. No, it doesn't say that. But it should. It's implied. But we want to fix it. We want to make it okay. But more often than not, it's not because it's good for us as a marriage. It's because when I fix it or get it fixed... now I'm okay. Now I'm okay again rather than she's not okay, so I can't be okay. And wow, that's not going to work. And we do things like defend, diffuse, deflect, minimize, rationalize, get angry.

Laura Mangin-McDonald: You know what they miss there though? They miss true intimate connection. I mean, they miss it. It's like, don't miss that because the very thing they need, they're trying to pass that stop. It's like putting your hand on a hot stove. My immediate reaction is to pull it back. That's a stimulus-response. And so for a lot of us, we approach those instances with already expecting a fight. I tell my guys, "Hey, if you go looking for a fight, you're going to find one."

It's brain priming. What are we looking for? We will find what we're looking for. And if I'm already for that, I've already got my dukes up. I'm ready, then that's what's going to come out of me. Now again, wives, most wives show up with, "I just want you to hear me. I just want you to connect with me. Be here in this painful place with me." And the guy says, "Okay, I know what to do." It's like, no, you don't have to do anything. It's your "who" we want, not your "do."

It's being in the moment with the pain, being able to stretch that muscle so that I can handle it and I can stay in this a little longer, a little longer, a little longer with my eye contact. You talk about words of touch, right? It's I can make eye contact and if she'll allow me just to put my hand for some contact, maybe she won't and that's okay. Always ask, always ask. But it's that connection even if the words, the content, the data, is not pleasant. How I coach guys is that's okay, that's still about her pain. Even if your name is in there, that's still about her pain, not your reaction.

JJ West: And if I'm aware that my shame is driving this, which when I'm in my shame, of course, I want to avoid, I want to run away. Or if I have some sort of fear of rejection, abandonment, so then I'm going to get defensive, got to prove I'm not the bad guy that you think I am or as bad as you think I am. Whichever path that takes, I have to be aware of what's going on inside of me so that I can then stretch that muscle to stay in the conversation long enough to not go to fix it, to not go to fighting, to not go to avoiding, but instead to stay and to offer me, not a solution, offer connection, not resolution.

So we're looking for how to comfort our wives to the degree that she is willing to be comforted in that moment and not having an expectation of any zero to 100. That's irrelevant. We're not looking for a report card. And that's hard for outside of our front doors. Well, I mean if you work from home, okay, it's different. But for most of us, it used to be outside our front doors, it's all performance-driven. I get a wage for something that I accomplish.

Laura Mangin-McDonald: That's how my worth is valued.

Doug Barnes: Right, and we tend to take it personally when, "Wait, I don't have to do anything? All I need to do is listen?" It can't be that easy. We know it's not. But even if I crave, one of my wounds is to be loved, and if I hear her at 125 dB intense, loud, right, if I hear that, then she's not loving me therefore I now have no worth and value and now I get triggered in my own head. Now my little boy comes out and starts wanting to fight with her little girl and then we get nowhere.

Laura Mangin-McDonald: And that's where we've got to know... we've got to understand implicit memory. We've got to understand again our nervous system doing its... because the guy's nervous system is doing its job. He feels threatened. He feels a threat, it's responding to that threat, but we can override that system but we do recognize that yes, it's there, it's serving a purpose. And we can honor the purpose that it served rather than beating ourselves up, "Oh, there I go again."

But if we don't know it, they're going to beat themselves up, which that's why they feel we're helping beat them up. The insidiousness of unresolved trauma is I'm looking at the person across from me, but I'm blaming them for what happened in the relationship inside of me.

And that's what's going on. I tell the ladies at Restore there, I go, "Look, to whatever degree of unhealed trauma you have that you came in here into this betrayal situation, that we've got to still fix that foundation, because it's going to skew the view." And so, something that I do with the guys that is very helpful is I call this think out loud. Feel out loud. Because I can see and I help the wife to watch this: he's struggling. He's trying. He's really trying, but he's still got the wrong playbook. And so I'm going, where are you feeling this? What are you feeling like? And getting him I go tell her, don't focus on delivering that perfect answer. Tell her, go, "I want to help, but for the life of me I don't know how." She can relate to that.

JJ West: Say something. Don't just be quiet. Even if what you're saying is, "I don't know how to process that."

Laura Mangin-McDonald: But that is... so many guys feel like that's not enough, it's a failure. But when they show that to the wives, the wives can relate to that. They can have compassion. They see him trying. I mean, that is gold.

Okay, so this is perfect because it transitions into where you've wanted to go since we sat down, which is, okay, so what should they do and what should they not do? One of the things they should do is to say something, engage, not shut down. What else? She sees him texting late at night, right? And what does he... "Oh, this is work, this is work." And she goes, "No, it's not," grab that phone. Versus saying, "Of course this looks suspicious. Here, babe. What do you need?"

And you're validating her experience. But see, he's got to have work through and healed a lot of his shame to do that because it takes a lot not to get triggered, for an especially if he's been working his program. So, "I'm here, you're not alone." Trigger-versary? Here's the... guys, write this down. "I'm sorry this pain is part of your story because of me." That's powerful.

And what he's now participating in is a coherent truth, a coherent narrative. As long as he goes, "Well, you know, no," as long as he battles that, he's wrapped in this incoherent narrative. But when you offer that, you're owning your brokenness and you're offering empathy. You're connecting with her. You're understanding what she's experiencing and you're owning your part in what she's experiencing.

Now, if they really want to be the MVP, if we're going for MVP, okay, here's what they need to say. Knowing that the trigger-versary is coming up, they initiate conversation. "I know today is heavy. I hate that my choices created this pain for you." It's an MVP statement. I'm telling you, because it is and I always tell the guys, if you want to be sexy, here's what you do to be sexy. Because she's going to be drawn close to you, she's going to go, "Oh my gosh, you're owning it. You're heavy lifting here. You're saying you caused it, you're taking response." But his responsibility is tons of empathy, tons of validation. It's a game changer.

And you can do that with the trigger-versary, the anniversary of D-Day. You can do that with, you're going to a wedding. "Hey, I know that sitting in the audience and listening to these two people share their vows could be really painful for you. Is there anything we need to talk about before we go?" You could do that with, we're going geographically to the place where I acted out. "Hey, I imagine this trip's going to be pretty hard for you. Is there anything you need?" You do that with all of those things.

But you can only do that if you're paying attention. You can only offer that if you're paying attention to what's happening with the calendar, if you're paying attention to, oh, the fact that a wedding might be triggering for her, the understanding the depth of her devastation. And you know what? Here's what's interesting. Most of these guys, if she had some type of physical impairment, he would be going, "Hey, we're going here, do you want to... will this be comfortable for you? Do you need any help from me? We need to make special allowance, extra time to get you through the airport if you've got a broken leg." They can be very attuned there, which is so confusing to the wife. Well, because none of that has anything to do with my shame, does it? I didn't cause that injury, so I can care for you there. But here's a good cheat sheet. Just because they'll go, "Well, I don't know what to do." What you would do over here.

JJ West: All right, so show up, initiate conversations. Don't wait for her to bring everything up. And part of that initiation is I need to remember. Okay, I don't know about y'all, but there's so often where guys want to get in this posture of, "I just want to forget that." That old man, you know, "Well, that guy doesn't exist anymore." Hold on, hold on, we'll get there.

Is there anything we need to talk about, Laura? Can we pause and let me unpack this? So it's they want to pass it over and not be really engaged in their own life. And I really try to get guys to remember since D-Day, this has been circling in her brain 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. It has not gone away for her. You may have to go to work and may have to attend to clients or you may have to fly a plane or you may have to drive across country or whatever you do. So that takes your mind off of this. Nothing takes her mind off of this. Nothing.

And so it's understanding that I need to be ahead of those anniversaries. I need to be ahead of those holidays like Valentine's Day and birthdays and how hard they're going to be. And for some folks, relatives, family members who have also come into the acting out mix, and to know that... "Doug, that's too much." You weren't thinking about that when you were doing your stuff. Wait, let's not talk about too much. And whatever your favorite hobby or hers is, but you'll spend tons of time on your favorite hobby. You'll learn every nuance of it, if it's important to you. And so if this is important to you, if caring for her heart is important to you, you'll take the time to learn, to pay attention, to figure it out.

But you know what's good grief, too? I mean, we have to grieve, all of us do. We have to grieve what we regret, the decisions we made. And we don't amputate, we integrate. We have to roll those into our heart. And it's yes, he's a new man, but guess what? Your past is still unresolved. You're a new spirit in Christ, but your past is unresolved. Paul talks about that in the New Testament. Romans 12:1 and 2, Colossians, Philippians, there's several places where he talks about this. You're becoming a new person, but you're integrating this new truth into your present life.

A lot of what we're talking about today reminds me of the conversation you and I had in between episodes, in between takes. We were talking about there was a question that what do your guys in one of your groups raised? "What do I do when she's so upset? How do I sit in her pain?" And it's very similar, and I think the response is similar. So we have to pause. We call them the three Ps. Pause, Pursue, and Provide.

So I have to pause. I have to slow down and pay attention. Okay, what's going on inside of me? What's being triggered in me by her trigger? And so I want to self-regulate so I can be a safe person in this conversation and not be demanding and not run away, not dismissive or whatever. But I've got to pause. I've got to take those deep breaths. I've got to reflect on what's going on inside of me and then be able to say, "Okay, God, I'm going to set that aside so that I can be present with her."

So I'm pausing, and then I'm pursuing. I'm going to her, not running away. We talked about how somehow there's an emergency in the garage that needs to be attended to. "I've got an email that's urgent right at the moment that you say, 'Honey, we need to talk.'" So I'm going to pause, but then I'm going to pursue. I'm going to sit down, not pace around the room or stand over the top of you. I'm going to sit down face to face and knee-to-knee and I'm going to be present and ask you, like you were talking about initiating those conversations. I'm going to pursue.

And in so doing, I've got to pay attention to my tone of voice. I've got to pay attention to my volume. I've got to pay attention to where am I looking. I have to pay attention to all of that in order to be present enough to pursue her heart and to say just as you said, "I'm here for you. I'm not going anywhere. This must be so hard for you." Even if I don't know what to say, I'm staying with you while we try and figure it out.

And to say to verbalize your discomfort. Because the more what they do is they get so in their head focused, trying like checking the rearview mirror, checking here, hands on the wheel, and then so then they're not present. And that's where they can really get beat down. But it's like if they'll stay with it because what they're doing is they're learning empathy that they never learned when they were two.

Which brings us to the third P: so you pause and you pursue, and then eventually that allows the temperature gauge to come down enough that now I can provide. I can provide that empathy. I can provide that safety. I can ask things like, "Hey, when you brought that up and I ran into the garage or got on the email or paced around the room or whatever, when I did that, I know that was scary for you or that hurt your heart. I'm sorry. And what do you need from me? How can I care for you in this moment?" When I do that, when I pause and then pursue and then provide, I am walking into her pain. I'm going into her pain, but I'm doing it in a way that allows her to take that breath. And her nervous system is going to feel it. Exactly.

The guys that I've worked with and the couples, when they get to the point where they're going, "You know what? Whatever it takes, I'm going to spend the rest of my life showing you I am so sorry, I love you." And that's not a guy who has it all together because none of us have it all together. But it's a humble guy. It's position of the heart going, "Tell me my blind spots." Or how about this one? "I didn't mean that, but if that's how you took it, please help me understand." Right, the conviction of, "I'm not leaving this no matter what you say, no matter what you do," but conveying that not in my words, but in the things that we're talking about here about how do I show up when things get tough between us. Because they're not tough between us because you're bad or something's wrong with you. They're tough between us because of what I've done or said or didn't do or didn't say. And how can I own that?

So here's what I want to do. We want to continue the conversation around this topic of when she's triggered, how do I respond in a way that makes it better, not worse? So we may give some also some pointers on what not to do as well. But we're going to continue that conversation next week. Until then, let's continue to walk in integrity.

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