Every Man’s Battle Podcast

Announcer: Welcome to the Every Man’s Battle podcast brought to you by New Life Ministries. In this podcast, you’ll hear honest conversations and encouragement for living a life of sexual integrity. In every episode, licensed marriage and family therapist JJ West and licensed professional counselor Doug Barnes break the silence around sexual integrity struggles that millions of men face but rarely discuss openly. Each episode offers practical strategies and genuine hope to dissolve the shame and isolation that keeps men trapped in destructive cycles. Let’s get to today’s episode.

JJ West: Hey guys, welcome back to the Every Man's Battle podcast. As always, I’m JJ West joined by Doug Barnes. We are once again continuing our ever-expanding conversation on using tech safely in recovery.

It’s expanded. We started off with laying the groundwork for it’s not about just eliminating technology, but technology is simply revealing something in my heart. When I’m using technology inappropriately, it’s revealing something in my heart and I need to address that. As I’m doing that, I then move into the very practical what we talked about last week, which is the nuts and bolts, practical, okay, there are some things that I need to change about the way that I allow technology into my world, into my life.

Doug Barnes: Right. And as you were saying that, the one thing that came to my mind was the process over the guardrails. In other words, it’s not just the doing, now we’re into the being.

JJ West: Yes, correct.

Doug Barnes: Okay, that’s what kind of translated to me because as we put the guardrails in, doing those things are, in just my opinion, they’re necessary things to address and some of them are hills I’m going to die on, right? But they’re not in and of themselves promoting the change that I need to do that we talked about in the first part of this three-part series.

JJ West: Yes. And now we’re going to talk about, well, how do we do that first part? Technology reveals my need, reveals that pain that needs to be addressed. I can put the guardrails in place, that’s the doing, but now how do I address the heart behind it so it’s not just behavioral change, but that I’m working on what’s going on inside here?

Which we talked about on previous episodes. So we’re going to expand on that. We’re talking today really about how the way that we heal the heart beneath our tech behaviors is in community and it’s through addressing my desire, not just my discipline.

What’s happening in my heart? Eldredge, Allender, Stinger, all of those guys continue to remind us the battle is always about desire. It’s not about this behavior thing that if I just get rid of the behavior, all is good and well with the world, no, because I haven’t addressed my desire.

Doug Barnes: Right, or what’s focused on that behavior. The behavior focuses us towards something and it’s not about the something, it’s about what I need to pull it back to me.

JJ West: What is it that I’m either feeling or trying to feel when I reach for the device, the screen, the whatever? What am I trying to feel? What wound am I trying to soothe when I do that? I have to be willing to look at that and I have to do that in the context of authentic community.

That’s where that happens. And if it’s authentic community, that means real intimacy, that means I can’t live in shame and secrets. I have to be willing, I have to want to tell the truth about me. That’s where that healing takes place.

Doug Barnes: That’s hard. If you’ve never done it, let’s just acknowledge that. Let’s validate that. If there’s anybody watching or listening that hasn’t done that to that deep level, that’s one thing that at our intensive that we really promote and we really dive pretty deep into. I totally get the fact that not everyone has done that yet and how scary it can be.

JJ West: It feels emotionally like I’m getting up on stage totally naked for the audience. That’s what it feels like. But what it ends up being is I have that level of intimacy, but I also have this level of acceptance that I’m wanted, I’m loved in that context.

Doug Barnes: Right, I’m validated for the hurt that I’ve been through and the pain that I’ve felt.

JJ West: Yes, everyone in those groups, in our breakout groups, there’s an acceptance, there’s a safety there. I am included, I’m accepted, I’m not laughed at, I’m not ridiculed, I’m not judged, I’m not criticized.

Doug Barnes: Safest place to be me.

JJ West: It’s the safest place in the world to be me. We have to have that because the alternative is shame and addictions thrive where we don’t have that secure attachment, that attachment’s missing, and instead we have shame.

Doug Barnes: Something’s wrong with me.

JJ West: Yeah. And the reason I think that’s juxtaposed with—I was designed for that authentic relationship and that’s where I thrive, but it’s scary. Technology comes along and offers me a false intimacy that mimics this.

Doug Barnes: It’s a counterfeit.

JJ West: It’s the counterfeit. It’s the false mother that offers instant comfort, it offers acceptance without real relationship. And so I go to that because that feels like what I was designed for and it feels low risk. There’s that low risk of rejection there. And so the alternative is I have to learn how to live in the authentic relationship and authentic relationship inherently involves risk. You can’t have authentic relationship without it.

Doug Barnes: Right, and that counterfeit though, just like you said, it feels right. It feels like a great fit and until I engage guys who are authentically doing it, I can’t see the counterfeit part of that.

You go to a mint back when we used paper dollars, but to train folks for counterfeit hundred-dollar bills, they didn’t show them counterfeits. They showed them only the real thing and showed them what to look for and to practice looking for them so you could see the real thing, you automatically know what’s counterfeit.

And so when I see the real thing, I step back and look at my life and go, well then what’s that? And so even sometimes the questions that butt heads right there is enough to shake me up out of my tunnel vision and to start to examine what is this thing that they’re doing? I can’t tell you how many guys in EMB groups who have said that exact same thing: I came expecting one thing and I came out with a group of guys who were just like me.

JJ West: Yes. And who I could relate to, who could relate to me. I thought I was coming for some information that I could just go and apply and then I’ll be better. Fix it. Instead, I got this community that helps me learn how to walk in integrity but also helps me learn me.

Because in that healing community, if I haven’t done my own story work, if I haven’t investigated my own story, I can’t then bring my story to the group to be known and accepted, to be seen and known and loved. So I have to do the story work. I have to plumb the depths of my story. That’s going to be for a lot of us that’s going to be in counseling.

Some of us it might take place in group work, but most of the time it’s going to be in that counseling, in journal work, in prayer where I’m letting God in those vehicles take me back to those painful parts of my story.

Doug Barnes: Brutally painful places.

JJ West: I have to do that work so that I have a story to then bring, "Here is me," to my healing community that then says, "We see you, JJ, we know your story and we love you, and we accept you."

Doug Barnes: Right, it just validates the work to that point. And for most of us out in the real world, we don’t get that.

JJ West: Right. When do you make time to explore your childhood wounds? Your sexual scripts, those that were taught to you, your family system? Very rarely do we make time to explore those things and all of those things have shaped us and continue to shape us.

Doug Barnes: Right, and it’s a great point because if I’ve experienced wounds in those areas, am I going to want to talk about those? No, of course not. So it’s good to step back and say, "Okay, we’re going down into the deep water with the sharks and the piranhas and the killer whales, but you’re not going by yourself." We’re going to suit you up and I’m going to go down there with you and I will be with you the whole entire time. I will be with you the whole entire way. You’re not going to be alone.

And for some guys that’s all they need is like, okay, alright. Other guys are going, no, I can do this by myself, I don’t need you. No.

JJ West: I share at the workshop the time that we as a family went rafting on the Chattooga River, which is all these Class 4 and 5 rapids. It was remarkable. The reason I felt okay doing that was because we had a guide in the boat. If it was just me and my wife and my two kids heading down this crazy river on our own, it would have been terrifying. But it was exhilarating and fun because I had a guide who had been down that river many times before.

Doug Barnes: Which takes some of the pressure off.

JJ West: It takes a lot of the pressure off. Exactly. Because we’re going into really hurtful places for some of us anyway. Others not and that’s okay, but we’re going into some really hurtful places. Some of us are guarding those with everything we have because of the pain that’s actually there. I’ve talked to so many guys who say, no, I’m not talking with you about that and I’m not talking with anybody about that. I’m taking that to my grave. And I just go, I’m so sorry to hear that.

Doug Barnes: It’s tragic.

JJ West: It’s tragic because it’s rearranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic while it’s sinking. Me just doing all the behavioral stuff—okay, I’m going to just put a filter on my phone and I’m going to limit how much time I spend on all that—but I don’t do the story work, right? It’s not ultimately going to matter all of the behavioral stuff because I’m not addressing that inner wound and the courage to do that.

Announcer: Five years ago, I had been in porn addiction and I'd had a sexual relationship out of marriage. Every day, men struggle with sexual integrity: impure thoughts, strip clubs, affairs, pornography. For over 20 years, New Life Ministries has been helping men regain their integrity through their one-of-a-kind Every Man’s Battle Intensive and it’s coming to a city near you. To find out more, call 1-800-NEW-LIFE or go to newlife.com. 1-800-N-E-W-L-I-F-E.

JJ West: Since we’re saying look, this happens in the context of community, how do we build a brotherhood that helps me handle technology safely? Where does that come from?

Doug Barnes: "Into me, see." Intimacy. And the way that gets worked in progress is accountability. We’ve talked about it for so many weeks now. It’s about connection. Do I have a group of guys that understand? Like we just got through talking about, if they know my story, will they accept me? Will they love me? Will they value me? Will they validate what I’ve been through?

The scripture that comes to mind is 2 Samuel 23, David’s Mighty Men. I tell all my groups that. If you don’t know the story, it’s a great story. And just the synopsis is three of David’s most mightiest warriors overhear David talking about how sweet the water would be and that he could drink from the well at Bethlehem.

And out of their love and devotion for him, they go over enemy lines, they go all the way back to Bethlehem, get some water. They don’t go for intel or weapons or skirmishes or anything, they’re going back for water. Scripture says that David is so overcome with their devotion that he pours the water, he doesn’t even drink it, he pours it out as an offering to God because of their devotion. He is so grateful for what those guys did for him. That’s the epitome of how I see accountability. It’s less about reporting sin and it’s much more about connection.

JJ West: Right, it’s about my heart. Do you hear my heart? To be seen, heard, and understood. Do you really get me?

Doug Barnes: And for the guys who’ve been through this, 99.99 percent are going to get it. Now there are those guys—let’s stop here a second. We just need to use caution. Not everybody in our Bible study, not everybody in our home team, home group, home church is going to get it. Not everybody that we play golf with or go shoot pool with or whatever you’re doing, not everybody’s going to get it and we need to have discernment around those guys.

JJ West: You don’t share your whole story with everyone all the time. There needs to be discernment. You need to find those good, safe men that will accept you, will love you, will walk with you, not will just turn a blind eye to your sin. They’ll call you out on your sin but they’ll do it in a way that says I see you and I know you and I love you and I accept you and go and sin no more.

Doug Barnes: Right, and the fact that I’ve done some of the same things that you’ve done levels the playing field rather than "I’ll just pray for you, I pray that you won’t do anything like that again." No, I don’t need that. I need somebody who understands that when I make a phone call and I reach out to somebody, first of all, if they see it’s me, they’re going to answer or they’re going to text me back and say, "Hey, I was in a meeting, call me in 20 minutes."

JJ West: My desire is I want—I don’t look at it and go, "Oh gosh, him again," it’s like "Oh, I can’t answer this right now, but I want to talk to Doug."

Doug Barnes: Right. And there’s so many times when I’ve reached out and I’ve left a message and I’ve texted and then I stopped because all I got back was crickets.

JJ West: I got to find the community that actually is a community for me, not just in name but in practice, in action.

Doug Barnes: Right. In the beginning years ago, I would get angry, I would get upset because that would tap into my wound, insignificance.

JJ West: There it is. They’re not responding because they don’t like me, they hate me, there’s something wrong with me.

Doug Barnes: What’s wrong with me? Like you do it for them but you don’t do it for me, what’s the difference? Now, thank God for wisdom, now I just go, "Okay, I’ve weeded out the ones that aren’t in this for me, okay, fine." And so I’ll find those that do and I did.

JJ West: And it’s also helpful to go they’re not responding not because they hate me, but because they’re not in a place to be that intimate yet.

Doug Barnes: And I’m okay with that. I wasn’t before but I’m perfectly okay with that now because that’s not an indictment on them and it’s not an indictment on me. It’s just where they are. I may not be explicitly, although sometimes I do, saying what I need, but the implication is I need you. If that’s not going to be something you can fulfill with me, okay, fine. We’ll part as friends and as brothers to the degree that we’re brothers and we’re going to do it. And I do need more.

JJ West: Shifting gears a little bit, how do I use technology to strengthen that community with others and to experience that community? Are there ways that I can use technology to be known and to know?

Doug Barnes: Sure. Of course, I’m a huge fan of check-in calls. Calls. That gives the implication that someone’s on the other end. So not just a text or carrier pigeon. Although the next best thing is I’m texting, I’m in my group, it’s either like 911, SOS. I’ll try to pick one person but after that person doesn’t answer then I send out a blanket. I blanket out everybody: "Hey, anybody available in 20 minutes?" or "It’s 2:00 in the morning, so when someone wakes up and checks their phone, can you just text me and let me know you’re alive, that somebody else is out there?"

I think those are two of the best ways. Sometimes people travel a lot, so there’s a couple of apps like WhatsApp works well when there’s people out and about in different countries or in different parts of the world where the reception’s not great. We can email and that kind of thing too, but for me it’s a little slow.

JJ West: I’m not always checking my email.

Doug Barnes: Some people live and die by it, but I don’t. And so I am much more apt to pick up my phone and answer or to at least look at it and go, "Oh, okay, as soon as I’m out of my session, I’m calling you."

JJ West: Let’s say it is a phone call. Let’s say that I’m on the phone and I’m ready to do that check-in, what should be included, what are the questions to ask, how does that look like?

Doug Barnes: I like it. The first thing I would ask is, "Tell me what’s up." Tell me what’s going on. Next question would probably be, "How you feeling? How you feeling about that thing?" If you’re in a situation where you’re in danger, okay, let’s get you safe. If you’re in a situation where you’re not in danger but you still need something, okay, I’m all yours.

What I want to do is validate whatever it is that they’re feeling. That’s real. I’m not going to go, "Why are you feeling that? That’s stupid. You have a flat tire and you’re scared, what, why?" instead of going, "Dude, I know exactly what that feels like to be on the road at night when there’s cars going 400 miles an hour behind you and it can be scary. You have no idea who’s going to be out on the road."

So it’s walking through safety first and then I’m looking at the experience. What’s driving this? Again we talked about the heart. What’s happening inside of you, not just physically, although that can be important. I have anxiety. Okay, if it’s a physical sensation I would talk about where they feel it in their body.

JJ West: Where do you feel that? Is it in the back of your head? Is it in your chest? Can you say why that’s important? Like why do you ask that? What does it matter where I feel it in my body?

Doug Barnes: Great question, I love it. Because sometimes that manifests where we store the pain, the trauma.

JJ West: Helps me identify what the trauma is.

Doug Barnes: It can for sure, yeah. If I’m not used to doing that, I’m all about practice. "I’m feeling sad." Okay, scan your body from the top of your head to the soles of your feet. What do you feel is different? Sensations, close your eyes and feel the sensations.

JJ West: What does sadness feel like to you, in you?

Doug Barnes: Inside of me. Maybe it’s a big rock in my gut, maybe my hands start feeling clammy, maybe they’re sweaty, maybe my neck—look for things that aren’t normal for you in the moment. Sensations, body temperature changes, etc.

JJ West: I think about when I was a teenager and I was dating this girl and then she broke up with me to go out with another guy and I’m walking down the street in front of my house and it felt like there was a big hole in my chest. Physically, there was something missing there. That was heartbreak, but physically it felt like there was a hole there. That’s what you’re talking about. I’m tapping into not just "Oh, I’m sad" or "I feel rejected" but physically I’m feeling that rejection or that sadness as a hole in my heart or my head is pounding, I feel the anxiety as my stomach just feels like it’s in knots. What’s going on inside of my body?

Doug Barnes: Yeah. There was a situation in college where I was dating one girl and I made a really bad decision with another girl and the first girl found out. The instant she found out she said a few choice words but then she said, "We’re done, I’m out of here."

It was seconds before I felt like I was just going to hurl because immediately what I thought was with the second girl, I thought I’d gotten away with it, I thought, "Killer me, this was great, this was awesome, I’m hiding all of this" and then immediately as soon as she said, "I’m out of here," I almost got sick. I was on the floor just going, "I feel like I’m going to die." Because there was so much—my stomach was so much in knots, I realized the horrible mistake I made in that moment.

I’ve never done that since. Never have I done that since because I don’t want to feel that way, but number two, I hurt two people at the same time. I don’t want to cause that pain for others. It was selfish.

Anyway, so I get it, that’s another piece of that where I can now be proactive in my decision-making going forward. I don’t ever want to act that way again. I had to own it then and it was horrible.

JJ West: So we’re asking what’s the situation, what’s going on, we’re asking what’s going on internally inside of you, what are you feeling, but also how do you feel that, what does that feel like for you inside of you? Anything else that we’re asking in those conversations?

Doug Barnes: One of the last questions is, how can I help? What do you need? What do you need from me now? "Well I need..." no, no, what do you need now? We’ve talked about safety, we talked about emotion, we talked about where it feels in you, what do you need from me now?

JJ West: And so the flip side, the person who’s needing the call, they have a responsibility. They need to be thinking through—there’s the crisis call, that’s kind of what you were describing—but then there’s also just the check-in call where I’m trying to learn how to dig into my heart. Have I done my homework, have I thought through what were the most tempting things going on in my world since my last check-in, whatever that was?

Doug Barnes: Or triggers. Have I been triggered?

JJ West: Yeah, what’s going on for me? And then when we’re talking about technology, where was I tempted to reach for technology to soothe that, to comfort me, to hide, to numb the pain? Did I choose to experience authentic intimacy instead? How did that go? Or did I instead numb and isolate?

I want to be thinking through as the person making the call, am I doing the story work and then how did I use technology either to help me connect or to isolate, numb, and withdraw?

Doug Barnes: That’s a good way to say it.

JJ West: And then I think it’s important that our groups are not just focused on fess up—there’s some value in that—but that there’s also encouragement. And not just encouragement like "You got this, you’re not going to screw up this week," but encouragement in terms of reminding us that we have the courage to explore our stories, reminding us that God has given us everything we need for life and godliness in this present age. You have what it takes. Yeah, that’s scary, validating that and we’re with you as you face that big scary monster that’s under your bed.

Doug Barnes: Psalm 133:1, how good and pleasant it is when brothers come together in unity. Doesn’t mean we’re all in the same room, but in unity, we can be of one mind. Like you said, I take my brothers with me everywhere I go. They’re right here and they’re going, "We’re for you, we’re with you here."

That helps me make better—I can’t say right decisions all the time because I obviously don’t—but it helps influence. It’s a good reminder that they’re watching too and I need them to watch. I want them to watch. I don’t have to have them watch. I want them to because they encourage me to be a better me and when I’m a better me, I’m a better husband, I’m a better father, I’m a better teacher, I’m a better clinician, and so on and so forth. Everybody else benefits.

JJ West: For me, bottom line is that technology is not the enemy, it’s a tool. It can be a tool used by the enemy and it can be a tool that’s used for our healing, for our growth. It’s deciding for me how I’m going to use that tool.

In the same way that—I forget the verse, but it’s in the Psalms where it says, "Some trust in horses, some in chariots, but we trust in the name of the Lord our God." The nation of Israel used horses and chariots. They had horses and chariots, but they didn’t trust in those tools to save them. They trusted in God to save them.

So I’m not trusting in technology to save me. I’m also not going to be afraid of technology. It’s a tool that I use but I’m trusting in the Lord to allow me to use technology for my healing, to use technology for connection with others, to use technology to help me understand. I can look stuff up to better understand how all this works. If I don’t have a PhD in neurochemistry, I can go use technology to help me to understand that better. I can use technology to get involved in discipleship. I do telehealth sessions, I do telehealth sessions. I can use that to further my journey of healing my heart.

I can use it as a tool to bring about healing, but I have to intentionally consecrate my technology. That’s a churchy word, big churchy word. Consecration all it meant was to set aside for a holy use. So that’s all we’re choosing to do. I’m choosing to consecrate, I’m choosing to say, "God, this is yours to use for a holy purpose in my life" as opposed to taking this consecrated thing and using it for mundane, selfish me.

Where Nebuchadnezzar's son—Nebuchadnezzar came in, took over Judah, the southern kingdom, took all the stuff from the temple. And one of his sons when he was in charge was like, "Oh, let’s go bring the gold chalices from the temple in Israel and we’ll use those to toast at our party." I don’t want to use something that was supposed to be intended for something holy and use it for the mundane and the selfish.

Well, this has been a really cool discussion that stretched over several weeks and quite frankly, we didn’t exhaust the topic, but hopefully we at least gave some things to dig deeper. And we hope that’s the case for you. We hope that this is helping you to really think through: am I using technology in a way that’s leading to my healing, or am I continuing to use technology in a selfish way, or am I just going technology is bad, I just can’t use it at all, I just got to avoid it? I don’t think that’s the answer because again as we said before, it’s just revealing what’s already in your heart. And so hopefully this is allowing us all to do a little bit deeper dive into the wounds in my heart and allowing God to use the technology to help me do that in the context of community.

If you’re in the audience and you’re saying, "I don’t really have that healing community, I don’t really have a group of guys that I trust to walk with me, to care for me, to not reject me," listen, you don’t have to do this alone. You don’t have to stay isolated. If you’ve been a listener any length of time, you’ve heard us say if you don’t have that community, it’s available to you if you go to the intensive. The Every Man's Battle Intensive, there’s one somewhere near you in the next few weeks.

If you sign up for that and you go, you automatically have a community. It’s built into the program. It’s the main thing that we do. Yes, we share information, but the main thing that we offer at the intensive is a built-in community that helps you walk this out. And so if you haven’t ever gone, I want to invite you. Call 1-800-NEW-LIFE, go to newlife.com, go to the events and learn about the intensive, the Every Man's Battle Intensive. Sign up for the next one that’s near you, or even if it’s not near you, just sign up for the next one. Use the EMBPOD discount code, that’ll give you $100 off your registration fee. We do that because we know how important that experience of being at the workshop is.

Guys, thanks again for listening. We want to continue to use technology in a way that’s healthy so that we can continue to walk in integrity. Next time we meet, we’re going to talk with a good friend of Doug and I’s, Bob Sklar, one of our facilitators. He’s been around a long time. I know you’re going to really be blessed by what he has to say. We’re going to get to know his story and also hear a little bit of his experience of working with guys in sustained victory. I know you’ll enjoy that. Until next time, let’s keep walking in integrity together.

Announcer: Thanks for listening. This podcast is one of many ways we can encourage and help you. If you’re looking for more help, visit us at newlife.com or call 1-800-NEW-LIFE. To receive bonus content exclusive to EMB podcast email subscribers, send an email to embpodcast@newlife.com with the words "bonus content" in the subject line. If you have a comment about this podcast, we’d love to hear from you too. Drop us a line at embpodcast@newlife.com. And please remember to review, like, and share the podcast as it helps others find us. See you next week.