Every Man’s Battle Podcast

Intro: Welcome to the Every Man's Battle podcast, brought to you by New Life Ministries. In this podcast, you'll hear honest conversations and encouragement for living a life of sexual integrity. In every episode, licensed marriage and family therapist JJ West and licensed professional counselor Doug Barnes break the silence around sexual integrity struggles that millions of men face but rarely discuss openly. Each episode offers practical strategies and genuine hope to dissolve the shame and isolation that keeps men trapped in destructive cycles. Let's get to today's episode.

JJ West: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Every Man's Battle podcast. I'm JJ West, sitting here with Doug Barnes. Today, we are going to be covering the topic of overcoming acting in. I can't wait to dive in. Doug, great to be with you again.

Doug Barnes: Thank you again. We get to do it again. It's fantastic. When we talk about overcoming acting in, it's probably helpful for us to start with a definition of what we even mean by the phrase acting in, because not everybody is already going to have knowledge of that concept.

Most of us are pretty familiar with acting out. We understand acting out to be these behavioral patterns we engage in as a way to escape. Typically, we're trying to escape shame messages, negative emotions, and that sort of thing. We're basically externalizing our pain in our behaviors. Most of the time for us, that's going to be sexual acting out, but other people might express it as anger, lying, drinking, drug use, gambling, or whatever. There are lots of different risky choices that are associated with acting out.

Acting in, interestingly enough, is also about pain, but it's about internalizing our pain. In acting out, I'm externalizing the pain through these risky behaviors. But acting in, I'm internalizing pain. The way I do that is I shut down. I withdraw, I isolate, and not only am I turning away from others—stonewalling, defensiveness, blame shifting, all of that kind of stuff—I'm also turning against myself. There's this belief that I am, again, worthless, unlovable, and unforgivable. So, I'm going inward with my pain. I'm internalizing my pain. I'm doing it in the same way; I'm using it as a way to escape. Most of the time, though, when I'm acting in, it's because I'm trying to protect myself. There's some pain that's out there, or perceived pain, danger, or risk, and I'm trying to avoid that risk.

JJ West: Some of these are learned.

Doug Barnes: Yes. You and I both know that we have guys at EMB and in our practices, and we hear this all the time where guys will say, "I don't feel like I'm doing that on purpose. I don't feel any pain when I'm not wanting to discuss a hard conversation with my spouse or coworker. I was just terrified, and I'm just shutting down. It wasn't like I set out and said, 'Okay, well, later today she's probably going to ask me that question, and I'm going to shut down or suddenly need to go work in the garage.'" It seems to happen automatically.

Guest (Male): I think some of the behaviors rise to the top. There are those—and this is by no means disrespectful to any of our brothers and sisters working here—but I've noticed in recent years that sometimes issues that we struggle with internally get pathologized. In other words, it's a head thing, or it's a medical thing, or it's something inside of me. There are those anomaly cases out on the bell curve in high school statistics. But when we're talking about acting in, we're talking about behaviors that we've learned.

The way I try to talk through this with my guys and couples is that I am going inward to myself and I'm pushing you away relationally. Acting out is behavioral because that's what everybody sees—the pornography, the strip clubs, the affairs, all of that. This is more relational. When I am acting in, I'm pushing you away relationally. I'm going into myself through lying, hiding, blame, shaming, dodging, and stonewalling. I'm keeping to myself and I may not even know I'm doing it.

I'll own it. I have sometimes not even known I'm doing it until I've done it. Then I see this reaction and go, "Okay, wow. I just did it again." So sometimes it gets pathologized, meaning that there's some kind of medical condition that I need to go get treatment for or I need to go see a doctor or a physician for, or I need to live with the rest of my life and it'll just never change and I'm doomed.

Doug Barnes: I want us to be on the same page where we think of this as awareness being the key to change. Am I aware of how I'm approaching my wife, girlfriend, significant other, coworkers, coaches, or counselors? Am I aware of when I feel like I'm in danger? I may not be aware that I'm in danger and I now am reverting back to some behaviors I've done for a lot of my life. I just didn't know that that's what this was called. Acting in is really pushing you away relationally so I can stay safe inside of me. That is different than personalities. If I'm shy or if I'm an introvert or if I'm an extrovert, it doesn't matter. But if I'm keeping to myself in a way that I am aware of something inside of me that is happening, I just don't know what it is. I see that you don't know because you can't read my mind. I walk away and go, "What just happened?" Because I'm not really sure and the person I'm talking to is scratching their head saying the same thing. "You're not talking to me. You're avoiding my conversation. You're going out to mow the yard when we need to have a conversation about what's going on with us."

JJ West: It ties back for me to the episodes we did on managing long-term recovery. We talked about the significance of asking other people, "What is it like to be in relationship with me?" I think that's part of what brings it out of that unconscious, "I'm unaware it's happening and I only notice after the fact."

If I start having conversations with the important people in my life—whether that's my spouse, my children, my close buddies in my accountability group, or small group at church—and if I start asking people, "Hey, would you mind sharing with me, what is it like to be in relationship with me? Do I feel open? Do I seem like I'm willing to share and be vulnerable? Do I seem closed off to you?" If we start asking that question, it starts to unpack and we become more aware, which is the key to growth. Because what we're talking about, again, is a habit. It's automatic and unconscious. I have to bring it from the unconscious to the conscious in order for it not to be automatic. The only way I do that is through awareness in relationship. I can't do that on my own. I can't go and look in the mirror and say, "Self, talk to me. What are you doing?" We need that community.

Guest (Male): In so many things that we talk about in recovery, it always comes back to community. I mean, our example, Jesus. Did he ever act in? I can't recall in scripture where that's ever a piece where his disciples are asking him questions and he's going, "I don't know," or "Why are you asking such a stupid question? I'm tired of you." He did, however, spend time alone, which is not the same as acting in. One was purposeful. There is a need for us to spend time by ourselves. There's a need for us to spend time with God.

JJ West: Solitude. It's a spiritual discipline as opposed to when I isolate. When I'm acting in, it's to push you away. I'm trying to protect myself by keeping you at arm's length. I'm uncomfortable, so this might get loud, this might get tense. Your facial expression scares me, so I'm going to protect myself and I will slowly move back from you. I will hide, avoid, blame shift, dodge, or gaslight.

Guest (Male): As opposed to Jesus, who when he withdrew into solitude, it was to connect with the Father and to connect with his own heart. It was not to hide or isolate, but to connect. He was very intentional about doing that.

I love that example because when we withdraw—and this is especially for those who are watching or who are listening who are used to withdrawing from those hard conversations—sit with that for a minute and say, "Why? What's going on with me? What's going on internally with me?" Because I'm being perceived one way, but I think I'm doing another thing. That goes back to being in community. How do you perceive me when I walk away from a conversation, or when we're just sitting talking about the weather and I just get up and walk away? How do you perceive me that way? I think that's a good point to bring out.

Doug Barnes: It goes back as well to when we're talking about acting out. We ask guys, "Do that internal work when you're wanting to act out, when you're feeling the pull to act out. What's going on inside of me? Where have I felt incompetent, insignificant, or impotent that may be driving this behavior?"

We do the same thing when we're acting in. We do that inner dive to say, "What's happening with me? Do I feel vulnerable right now? Do I feel at risk right now? Do I feel attacked right now? Do I feel incompetent right now? Do I feel insignificant right now?" That's causing me to want to retreat, to isolate, to gaslight or blame shift. What's the negative narrative I'm saying to myself? I'm inadequate. I'll never measure up. I can't get this right. Why am I here? You're mad at me. You're going to leave me. You hate me. You're going to divorce me. You're going to detach from me in some way. That's too scary for me.

Guest (Male): So, what we've surmised is acting in and acting out are two sides of the same coin. You may be saying, "Why? Why are they two sides of the same coin?" Because we're led there by life situations and the way that we have a tendency to respond or react to those life situations. We're going to, instead of acting out, which are the behaviors that everyone sees—which takes more behavioral energy to do—acting in comes in when I feel like I am being attacked in a way that I can't share with you. That's that lack of vulnerability. I'm pushing you away, but the same process is going on inside of me.

JJ West: Acting in and acting out, we have similar responses—almost exact. How do I get out of that? Both are attempting to manage overwhelming feelings. They do it in different ways, but I am attempting, whether I'm choosing to act out or act in, I'm choosing to try and manage these overwhelming feelings of shame or guilt or incompetence or inadequacy.

Doug Barnes: Just as a review, you bring up a great point. Again, how many times do we hear, myself included—taking one to know one—well, I'm not feeling anything. We hear that at the intensive. We hear that in our offices. "Well, I don't—I'm not feeling anything. I have no idea. I don't know," when you're asked.

That goes back to other episodes that we've done on getting in touch with God, self, and others. This is in getting in touch with ourself and how do we be aware of and out in front of those situations, like with our spouses, girlfriends, significant others, colleagues, employers, whoever we're with. Be aware of what's going on with me.

So now, it's kind of a stair-step. If I'm aware of me, now I can look at how I'm aware of what's going on inside of me in the moment that I'm there. Because all life situations have a response or reaction. Because I'm not aware of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. They're going on. If I'm not aware of it, it's going to be reaction rather than a response. We're trying to pull back from our reactions to being self-aware and to respond to the stimulus that's in front of me in healthy ways so I don't get driven to my acting in or acting out behaviors. I stay present.

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JJ West: Okay, so we've listed some—some of the more obvious ones—certainly withdraw, isolation, avoiding conversations. Those are the low-hanging fruit. But what are some other examples of acting in to help the audience identify, "Oh gosh, I do that and I do that as a way to protect myself and push others away"?

Doug Barnes: Speaking of low-hanging fruit, work. Work is a great one. So often when we stop our acting out behavior, all the time that we've ever used, I hear this so often. What is one of the bigger substitutes I do? Because we're supposed to be connecting, this is a connection issue, it's intimacy. But what do so many people do? They substitute all that time with work. They're going back to something that's culturally and socially productive. I make more money, I spend more time being productive, I bring home more bacon, etcetera.

But do I take the time—talking about solitude—do I take the time to go inward and say, "What am I using with these four, five, 30, or however many hours a week that I used to spend in my acting out behavior? How am I using that in a way that's now for my recovery rather than pulling me away from my recovery?" Our relationships are included in that recovery. A big part of my recovery is being in that safety of community and that safety of intimately driven conversation.

So many of us, I included, didn't know how to do that. I didn't know how to be intimate. So it's learning how to—what is the language of intimacy? Maybe that's another podcast. But learning how to get outside of just distracting myself. Work is the biggest one. Church activities.

Guest (Male): One tell is my need to control. Am I aware of my need to control people, places, and things? Because it makes me feel calm, peaceful, Zen. I don't want to go into obsessive-compulsive stuff, because that's a part of it, but that's not our focus today. It's using things around me so that I can be calm on the inside. Because when I'm not calm on the inside, then that's where I become more chaotic. I go back to my coping mechanisms that I've learned mostly from childhood, but not all. So many of these things are rooted in the training we get—relational training we get—when we're growing up. So much of it comes from our families of origin. So many of us talk about, "Well, when I got married, well, she..." or, and the opposite is, "Well, he does..." Let's talk about where—can we go back and talk about that in a family situation, your pattern of responding to that kind of behavior, and even your tendency to look for that?

JJ West: What's interesting to me is that I think a lot of people will automatically view acting in as some of those like withdraw, isolate, get quiet, don't want to talk, I'm off in the garage working on something, or I'm working crazy hours at work and never available. That's obvious. But what is maybe a little less obvious is I get critical, I start blame shifting, I pick fights, all of those things can be acting in behaviors as well because this is the way I push you away. I push you away by being critical of you. The way I push you away is I get really defensive if you're asking questions. I'm not willing to even engage in heart-to-heart stuff. It can be super quiet and hiding, or it can be bombastic and loud. But it's all that same, "I'm pushing you, I'm keeping you out relationally to keep me safe inside."

Doug Barnes: What I just noticed as you were saying that, sometimes the outward expression of anger—it looks like anger—happens in your practice and it happens in mine. He has an anger issue. Well, that may be true. However, how often can that be misunderstood as acting in? I'm really wanting to push you away from me because this is getting too uncomfortable for me. I use my Hulk-ness, my anger, to shut you down, to drive you away, to upset you, to say ugly things to you so you will leave me alone, where now things in my internal being can settle down. But it's getting misperceived as, "He's always getting angry."

JJ West: To take it even a step further, we may not be aware that we're doing this. Sometimes we do that because we know if I get angry, I know how you're going to respond to my anger. Because I know that, I feel more comfortable because we're following a familiar script. I know what's expected and what's going to happen afterward. I'm not left in this guesswork stage of what's the right answer or what you're looking for.

But I do that—if I pick a fight with you—again, not necessarily consciously, but if I pick a fight with you, that's familiar territory. Because you'll be upset and you'll pull away. Now I feel completely justified in going and working in the garage. I can go drop that transmission and I'm good.

Doug Barnes: One of the things that I noticed in my life was I got good at perfecting that. I recognized when I do A, she will do B. I learned to recognize that, especially through my life, I learned how to manipulate others by doing that. I didn't know that's what I was doing. But as I'm looking back and going, "Oh my gosh, I was doing this not to engage in this or to avoid this other conversation or behavior that I was really needing to be in." But I was using that as a tool of pushing you away. This is relational so that I would feel like, "Okay, now I can go do my thing."

JJ West: Was there anything in particular that brought that awareness about for you—that flipped the switch and you're like, "Oh, that's what I'm doing"?

Doug Barnes: Community. When I'm talking to other clinicians, other facilitators, other guys in my group, as I'm listening to them and I'm just thinking through, I'm actually listening for things to take back with me. So it started making sense to me. The more I heard it, the more it's like, "Wow, I do that." It didn't look like that before because I read it in my own personal script one way. "She pissed me off, so I would do this." But then again, it made sense to me that if I was doing that on purpose, wow, that's just wrong. But I didn't know that's what I was doing. People would tell me, then I'd go, "No, you're crazy. That's not me. I'm not doing that." Now looking back, I'm going, "Yep, I did."

Talk about amends. Now I'm on the lookout for that. So when I'm uncomfortable, when I'm starting to get anxious, when I'm starting to get overwhelmed and chaotic, my voice starts getting a little bit louder. My wife would say something different, but as my voice gets louder and I get more animated and I get more intense, that's my check engine light. That says, "Hey, something's going on in you. It's time to pull over, turn the engine off, and see what's happening." That's my indicator that I am getting ready to go to that behavior. That is so scary for me because I hate myself when I do that. I hate it when I do that, knowing the damage I'm about to do. That's why I pull back.

JJ West: To that point, I know we shared in previous podcasts how when we're talking about recovery in terms of acting out behavior, early on in recovery we act out. Something happens, we're triggered, one of the three eyes is in play, we act out after the fact. We go, "Oh man, that happened. Repentance, recommitment to recovery." As we move through recovery, we start noticing it as it's happening. Then eventually, we want to get to a place that we notice we can see it on the horizon. "Oh, that's likely to happen. I'm likely to be triggered by such and such thing, so I want to be prepared."

We do the same thing with acting in. Early on in recovery, I'm going to notice after the fact. "Oh, I blew my top to push you away. I'm so sorry." We make amends, recommitment to recovery. Then after a while, I start noticing as it's happening. "Oh, my voice is getting louder. Oh, I'm getting more animated. Oh, I'm calling you names. I'm thinking uncharitably about you." I'm starting to notice as it's happening. "Okay, it's happening. I'm sorry. I don't want to. Can we try this again? I want to connect with you. That's what's important."

Eventually, we get to a place where I see it on the horizon. I've just had a lousy day. I got the nastygram from the boss. "I can't believe you made that presentation. I'm not sure why we keep you on this team." We get fired by a client, somebody cuts us off in traffic, whatever, and I'm already primed. Life isn't fair. Everybody's picking on me. Nobody loves me. Nobody cares. I'm going to go eat worms. I'm likely to walk in the door and be encountered by something amiss. When that happens, my tendency would be then to isolate, to withdraw, to act in, or to get angry and act in. I'm seeing it on the horizon. I don't want to have that response. I'm going to connect with self. I'm going to connect with God. "God, help me to have a different response." Then as I walk in, I'm spent, but I don't want to withdraw. I don't want to act in.

Guest (Male): We may need to take check in with our community before we ever put the key in or hit the garage door opener. I'm a big proponent of just throwing an SOS text out, or a 911, or actually getting on the phone with somebody and saying, "You're not going to believe the day I had. I'm about to walk in to I don't know what. I just need to dump this." If we can dump it in a healthier place, that means at least we're walking in more aware or at least maybe a little lighter. And we're not going in all alone. I know I've got a community behind me as well who are praying for me or talking to me.

Doug Barnes: Something occurred to me as you were talking about what's the timeline from this "after" to "inside" to "before"? Standard answer: different for everyone. Everyone's recovery is unique. I would say it's somewhere in the 18 to 24-month range that you make that journey. Some guys are on the fast track and they're able to knock that out in just a couple months. Some guys, maybe it takes a lot longer because they have lived a life of complete unawareness. But I do think most guys, probably if I were pressed, I would say closer to really like 12 to 18 months. I'm not talking about you have to take 10 years to do this. But it's also not going to happen next week if you just started recovery. It's going to be months of training.

JJ West: To recognize—because early on it's—I'm moving the timeline from acting out or acting in behavior to awareness. When I start, it might be days or weeks before I'm aware. But I'm being kind. Days or weeks, and now I'm moving it closer and closer and maybe it gets to days to hours, and then it gets to I'm noticing it as it's happening. That's just going to take time because we're not in practice for this.

Doug Barnes: You realize there was a collective groan from spouses when you said 18 to 24 months. I heard that in my head. Now, that doesn't mean nothing happens for 18 months and then bing! So there needs to be progress. There needs to be "I started off at several weeks and then I went to a week, to days, to hours." I only say that because I got an email just this morning from a spouse who asked basically the same question. How long is this going to take? How long is it going to be before he can emotionally connect with me? How long is it before he's going to stop emotionally talking to me this way?

JJ West: It goes back to the fact that it's not pathology in the sense of damaged forever, but it is a wound that's been there a long time. At least we think that collectively at EMB. So thinking about it in a way of—this is very doable, but it just takes time. The part I can't help is the amount of time in relationship he's done this, and it's been damaging this whole time. So she just wants to avoid the damage and for him to stop that. Just stop it now. It's taking that time for him to learn—I call it learning Japanese phrases. No offense. But it's learning a language that I never learned. This is not uncommon knowledge. I never learned how to be intimate and I never learned how to speak true recovery until I got into recovery. It's an evolving process ever since. It's not an outcome, but it's learning how to be emotionally connected to myself so that I can realize, is the acting out on the horizon or is the acting in on the horizon and who do I have close to me that I can connect with?

JJ West: And this is an ongoing thing. We still work on this years and years later in recovery. Wounded healers. This has been such a great discussion and we've barely chipped the tip of the iceberg because there's so much more. I think we want to continue the discussion in a bonus episode or a second episode on acting in because truly, it's such an important discussion. We don't want to shortchange it or leave out important stuff. Hopefully this has wet your appetite. You started to recognize, "Oh, you know, I do some of that. I do act in relationally by pushing others away as a way to protect myself when I feel overwhelmed, when I feel out of control, and I don't want to keep living that way." So we want you to tune in next week to talk about what do we do instead? What does it look like to start living more connected in greater community with others? Thanks again for listening, guys. We're so glad that you're on this journey with us. Until next time, let's keep walking in integrity.

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