Culture & Christianity: The Allen Jackson Podcast

Allen Jackson: Welcome to Culture & Christianity. Those of you who are familiar with the podcast will recognize I'm not in my normal spot for this. It seemed appropriate today. This is actually the set where we tape Allen Jackson Now. It's a program that is a conversation about current events that we do each day. If you've never seen it, I would invite you towards it.

It seemed appropriate today because this podcast is a little different for us. We wanted to remember Charlie Kirk. It was a year ago this week that Charlie was murdered. Charlie was a friend. We did some work together. We didn't hang out and go fishing, but we were familiar enough to talk about current events, what was happening in the world, and how we might work together in doing that. His death was a loss to all of us.

I didn't want this week to come and go without taking a moment for that. So we're going to share with you a conversation I had with Charlie not long before he was killed. But I want to remind you of a couple of things. As we approach this one-year anniversary, there are many across the country, or at least there are college campuses across the country, where they're having celebrations to mock Charlie. That really shouldn't be surprising. It's unfortunate. It seems to me in the poorest of taste.

But the conflict between good and evil, light and dark, it's not new. It didn't begin with Charlie Kirk, and it certainly didn't end with his death. Charlie was a courageous young man who was willing to take his biblical worldview and have a conversation with anybody who was willing to engage with him. He would do it in a kind way. He was willing to listen to anyone's opinion. He would do it in a tolerant manner, but not tolerance if you define tolerance as every idea being accepted as having equal merit.

He would challenge the merit of ideas that conflicted with a biblical worldview. I believe it was for that more than any other thing he was hated and ultimately hunted and killed. I don't believe there's any question it was an attempt to intimidate all of us. I think we have to have the courage to take our faith into the public square, onto the college campuses, back into academia, wherever the Lord opens the door for us.

Folks, we need faith in hospitals and courtrooms. We need faith in factories and job sites. We need faith back in our churches and our pulpits. We have hidden from our culture for too long. Charlie Kirk was a bold, courageous young man that reminded us that our faith has a place in the public square.

It's highly probable that not everybody will celebrate that, but that's not a reason for us to hide or cower in the shadows. The best way I believe we can honor Charlie and Turning Point and Erika and the whole team that have carried that initiative forward is by each one of us choosing to be men and women of faith in the spheres of influence that God has given us. Whatever our day job, we can be a butcher, a baker, or a candlestick maker. Our faith has a right in that place.

We can't afford to retreat any longer. We don't have to be violent. We don't even have to be belligerent. But we have to be determined to take our faith forward. If we'll do that, I believe we'll see the Kingdom of God extended, the name of Jesus lifted up, and the values that Charlie lived for and ultimately died for, they'll be extended to another generation. That's worthwhile.

As you listen to my conversation with Charlie, I want you to also listen to the Lord and His invitations to you. God's still recruiting people, folks. He's not done with that. Let's you and I say yes to the Lord. We'll make a difference in this generation for both our culture and especially because of our Christian faith. Enjoy the conversation.

Charlie Kirk: Hello everybody, how are we doing tonight? Please take a seat. We have a very special guest tonight, so I'm not going to talk for long. He is the author of this incredible book, Angels, Demons, and You.

It's very important to understand there is an invisible spiritual battle happening around us every single day. That spiritual battle manifests in many ways in politics, in the culture. I've gotten to know Pastor Allen Jackson over the last couple of months especially and have been very impressed by his Bible teaching.

In fact, I learned from Pastor Luke that he came to one of Pastor Tommy's trainings about 25 years ago. Pastor School, 25 years ago, and has been faithfully teaching the Word. He said he learned so much from that seminar and that event. It is just amazing how much Dream City impacts the world, and you don't even know about it until 25 years later.

This is just a remarkable testament. I'm going to be short here at the beginning because I also want to make sure we get to questions. There are always questions that people have that we are not able to get to. So I'm going to get right to it. Join me in welcoming our guest tonight, Pastor Allen Jackson, author of Angels, Demons, and You.

Pastor Jackson, welcome to Dream City Church.

Allen Jackson: It is an honor to be here, Charlie. Thank you. What an amazing legacy this place has and what an impact you have made and are making. I love that.

Charlie Kirk: So Pastor, introduce yourself. We can tell you're kind of from the South. People are already trying to decipher that. How South are we talking here? Not quite Louisiana?

Allen Jackson: No, I'm in Nashville. It's an authentic hillbilly you hear in my voice. I studied at Gordon-Conwell for a while in Boston. My nickname was Gomer. So, yeah, I've got a little bit of an accent.

Charlie Kirk: So you run a church?

Allen Jackson: I do. I serve a congregation that's World Outreach Church. It's actually in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. Come on! I have been there 40 years. I was seven years old when I came. You can do the math. I was a prodigy.

No, the Lord's been very good. We started with a tent. My parents had a Bible study in their home for a dozen years. It's a bit of a story. We were going to church every week and we weren't Christians. You can do that. Then when I was seven, the doctors told my mom she had six months to live.

The pastor that came to visit didn't believe in heaven or hell. The problems in our churches today are not new, folks. This has been building for a long, long time. In route to Mayo Clinic for some really dramatic surgery, she said a prayer that if there was a God, she could know the truth before she died, so she could leave that as a legacy for her sons. I have two brothers.

After a four-day workup at Mayo Clinic, a doctor came in and said, "You had cancer. We have pictures, but we can't find it. Go home and raise your babies." A few weeks later, she's washing dishes and she heard a voice. We were Methodists, and Methodists don't hear voices. The voice said, "You asked to know the truth before you died." And she said, "Yes, I did." And He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life."

She knew it was somewhere in the Bible. So she went and got a Bible and looked until she found John 14. So my parents became Christians, and it changed our whole home. Out of that came a Bible study and, decades later, a church. So I understand the church that is an extension of faith in a family.

There's something about this place I think that feels like home to me. We're still doing that, serving Middle Tennessee. As technology has changed, now you can sit in Middle Tennessee and talk to the world. Then we meet people like this that have more courage than 99% of the pastors I know.

So we said if there's anything we can do to stand with Turning Point and Turning Point Faith and what Charlie and Lucas and their teams are doing to add momentum to that, then we're in. So we're in Phoenix for a day.

Charlie Kirk: Well, thank you. We are honored to partner with you. I want to talk about this book because it is a topic that we at Freedom Night have really not touched on in over about a year or a year and a half, which is the spiritual battle. Sometimes there's a lot of, let's just say, conjecture when it comes to the spiritual war, where some people think that there's a demon under every pillow or an angel around every corner.

I think it's really important to go back to Scripture for all answers, but especially when it comes to these complicated topics. When I see Angels and Demons, I first think it's a novel, but it's not. Wasn't the author Dan Brown? Didn't he write Angels and Demons, The Da Vinci Code? Am I right about that?

Allen Jackson: Yes.

Charlie Kirk: Don't watch that movie. It's terrible. Don't. This is the much better Angels, Demons, and You. So let's get back to foundational Scripture. What does the Bible, the Word of God, say about angels? What does it say about demons? Are they real? Is it biblical to say that there is an angelic and a demonic realm?

Allen Jackson: I think it's not only biblical, I think it's essential. I agree completely that we want to come from what Scripture tells us plainly and clearly. I would submit to you as a thesis that spiritual forces impacted your life today. If you're not aware of that and you're not intentionally engaged with that equation and that formula, then you're just being buffeted by whatever.

I don't think that's the best way to navigate life. I prefer to be more intentional. I like to start with the angels because I think that's more important. Too often in the church world, or the part I've been a part of, we want to focus on demons. But Jesus' life and ministry was impossible apart from the angelic help and support.

It started with Zechariah and Elizabeth with Gabriel and the announcement to Zechariah that there's going to be a child. Then Mary and Joseph—without the angels' engagement, there was no birth narrative to emerge. Jesus, after His baptism and being tempted in the wilderness, the angels come and minister to Him. In Gethsemane, the angels ministered to Him.

Satan said to Jesus at the temptation that the angels will keep you from harming yourself. Satan was aware of the angels' involvement in Jesus' life and ministry. You follow it into the Book of Acts, and there is no Book of Acts without the angelic intervention. They're a part of that narrative.

I come from a world where Acts chapter two is a big deal. I don't want to diminish that, but I also don't want to diminish the angelic intervention in that. We've been pretty much pacifists about that. If you have a passive attitude towards God, you'll miss the Kingdom of God. If you say, "If God wants me to go to heaven, He'll get me there," you'll go to hell with that attitude.

You have to personally choose to believe and accept Jesus into your heart. You don't have to join a church. No church has got a headlock on the whole truth. I believe the same is true with spiritual engagement. You have to make a decision and begin to use your words and your minds, the tools God's given you.

I've developed the habit, particularly since working on this project, of every day beginning by asking God to release the angels for the help for the tasks and assignments I have for the day. It's changing what's happening in my life. So I don't think it's a frightening book. I think it's a liberating book.

Charlie Kirk: In Hebrew and in Greek, an angel means a messenger. Sometimes people would think of an angel as a being with wings that will fly around. What does Scripture tell us about the essence of an angel? Is an angel more than just a messenger? Because we can go into the Book of Ezekiel and we can see that the angels have a lot more dimension than just communicating with human beings. Separate fact from fiction and Scripture from folklore. What does Scripture say about what an angel actually is?

Allen Jackson: Well, there's a lot. Angels are warriors. In the Book of Daniel, if we're going to go to the Hebrew Old Testament, there are these pictures of angels bringing messages to Daniel, telling him he's highly esteemed by God. Now, Daniel is a eunuch serving his life as a slave in a foreign court. That does not feel like a position of great favor.

We have to recalibrate. You see, we tend to think God blesses us if everything's going our way and our lottery ticket won. Sometimes you can be living in the midst of the favor of God and paying a steep price for being a truth-teller. Now, Daniel prospered in many ways, but he was falsely accused. But the angels are an integral part of that.

Daniel was so trustworthy that God gives him a revelation of the end of the age, far beyond Daniel's life. If I could give you an invitation: be such a trustworthy component of what God is doing in the earth during your life that He will use you to provide information for the generations who follow you. It's a different attitude.

But you get to the Book of Revelation, and the angels are central players. They're essential in the judgment of God at the conclusion of this age. They're referred to in many ways. There are mighty angels. So there's a difference in the strength of angels. You wouldn't designate one as mighty if they all had the same strength.

I believe there's as much differentiation amongst the angels as there is amongst human beings. They're created beings. God seems, if to be anything, He's creative. So I think there's a great deal of diversity amongst the angels. There are angels that are very engaged in the judgment upon the earth. When Jesus told the parable of the wheat and the tares, remember that? He said that at the end of the age, the field was the world and the angels would be the harvesters.

It's really against Scripture to imagine that they're going to lead our lives without angelic intervention and engagement. It says that we entertain angels and we don't recognize them. So I don't think they have wings and feathers or smell like cookies, if you remember the John Travolta movie. Not that I watched it, but I had friends who did and they told me about that.

But I think it's really a step into the reality of spiritual things. I don't believe you can understand what's happening in America today if you try to understand it only in terms of politics or ideologies. There's a spiritual conflict for our nation. It's what makes the church so essential. It's what makes a night like this so essential. If we think because Trump got elected and J.D. Vance is the Vice President we can go sit back in our recliners and quote our favorite verses, we will forfeit the opportunity that God gave us last November.

Allen Jackson: This podcast is made possible because of sponsors. One of our sponsors is Preserve Gold, and I appreciate their partnership with us. I pray it's a blessing to you. One of the things that I hear most often right now is that people are doing their best to plan for the future, but they're not sure what to trust anymore.

The headlines, they change every day. The economy, it feels pretty unpredictable. That uncertainty, it's unsettling to all of us. But as people of faith, we're not called to live in fear. We're called to live with wisdom, with discernment, and with peace. Part of that is simply taking practical steps to protect what you've worked so hard to build and establish for yourself and your family.

That's why many are turning to time-tested assets like gold and silver, not as a reaction, but as a way to bring stability into their financial plans. If you'd like to learn more, I encourage you to connect with Preserve Gold. They've helped many people understand how to diversify their savings with physical gold and silver, including in retirement accounts.

Right now, you can get their free wealth protection guide by texting Allen—that's A-L-L-E-N—to 50505. Plus, with a qualified purchase, you can receive up to $15,000 in free gold or silver. If you want to learn how precious metals could help protect your savings, text Allen to 50505 today. You'll receive your free wealth protection guide.

Charlie Kirk: You said something very operative. There is a temptation then to pray to angels. Can you reconcile how we are supposed to deal with angels? They are not God. They are created beings, so they're below our Creator. But are they above human beings? Are they former human beings?

What does the Scripture say about that? Especially as we must, under all conditions, defend monotheism. We are not a polytheistic faith. We do not believe that angels are divine. So help us make sense of that.

Allen Jackson: It's a very interesting point. Human beings are, in Scripture, set apart from any other aspect of God's creation. We're the image bearers. We get to that in Genesis chapter one. Those opening chapters of Genesis give you the big rock ideas for the whole rest of the Bible. By the time you get to Genesis 11, you've been introduced to the big ideas of Scripture.

Human beings are set apart from all the rest of creation. We're not just the highest rung of the evolutionary ladder. In fact, we're told to exercise dominion and authority over all creation. In those opening chapters is the Fall, when we rebel against God and reject all that He's given to us. God announces in those early chapters His plan for redemption.

Well, the angels rebelled. A portion of the angels rebelled against God. Satan is a fallen angel. There is no redemptive plan for the angels. So when we talk about God being a God of infinite grace and mercy, which is a common fallacy I believe in so much of the messaging today, there is an end to the mercy and grace of God.

God's grace and mercy is intended to bring us to repentance, not to bring us to greater license. The evidence of that is the angels. When the angels rebelled, there's no plan for their restoration. When human beings rebelled and fell, God put in place the incarnation. My Son will become one of you. He didn't become an angel.

Hebrews talks about this in more detail than probably we want to here. So, yeah, the angels have a different role. I don't believe we direct the angels or command the angels, but they are busy with God's assignment to help us, support us, strengthen us. They fed Elijah after his victory over Jezebel and Ahab and the fire on Mount Carmel, and he's fled to the desert. There are these multiple places where the angels have assignments.

There's an almost unlimited number. We have one scene in the Book of Revelation where there's a hundred million angels in one scene. Well, the US population is 300 million people roughly. Imagine one scene where you could see a third of the population of the US. Obviously, you can't put them in one room. It's a drone flyover. It's a group that disappears into the horizon.

So there's a significant force of messengers, warriors, agents about the business of God active in the earth today. I don't believe we can live our lives just completely unaware of that.

Charlie Kirk: Can angels take human form?

Allen Jackson: The Scripture seems to suggest that, certainly. In many respects, we have pre-incarnate appearances of Christ. The real honest answer—and I'm really comfortable with this, if this bothers you, I'll apologize on the front end—is there's a lot I don't know.

I know that's a shock to you, because you all thought there was nothing I didn't know. No, but there is, and I'm at peace with that. I've been reading my Bible for a long time. I came to Pastor School 30 years ago, and I'm still very much a learner. I don't think there's any question that angels can appear in human form.

It's why we need an awareness of spiritual things that is dramatically different from what we've been coached to up to this point. I think for the most part, we just don't attach much value, strength, or authority to spiritual forces. It's the reason the church is so close to impotent. Political power, economic power, military power—they're all real things, but they are very much a weak imitation of the power of God.

Jesus spoke to wind and the waves and He raised the dead to life and He turned water into wine. Jesus was never intimidated or threatened or frightened. He stood with Pilate, the most powerful political figure in Israel at the time. Pilate's getting a little agitated with Jesus' lack of cooperation. He said, "Do you know who I am? I have the authority to crucify you or turn you loose."

Jesus said, in the Living Bible actually, "Unless my Dad gave it to you, you don't have any authority." Well, the church needs to live with an awareness of the authority that's been entrusted to us. It doesn't mean we're in control. We're not. We're servants of the King. But we serve under the authority of that Kingdom, and we're supposed to reflect that authority. That's more than sermons and church services.

Charlie Kirk: Now to the second component, which is demons. You mentioned this. They are fallen angels, as described in I believe the Book of Ezekiel, where they rebelled against God. This is predating the creation, is that right? That's inferred, if I'm not mistaken. So demons are one-third of all the angels rebelled. Is that right?

If we are to, again, I don't want to ever read something that's not in the text, but essentially what is being described was a pretty insane civil war in heaven. A mutiny that then got basically dealt with. An insubordination of the highest celestial order. Is that a fair reading of the text or am I getting a little bit too much liberty into what the Scripture says?

Allen Jackson: Well, the information we have is limited, in my opinion. I'm not one that likes to extrapolate very far beyond the plain reading of the text. I don't believe the Bible really gives us the ultimate origin of demons. My opinion—and I'll put it this way—my opinion, I don't think demons are the fallen angels.

There's a variety of opinion on that. You could disagree with me. We could both go to heaven. I'm good with that. It's okay. I don't think demons behave like angels. Angels have a place of authority. They're part of a structured thing. That demons exist is very clear. A prominent idea, certainly not unique to me, is that the demons represent perhaps the disembodied spirits of a pre-Adamic race. Something happened before Genesis 1:2. That's opinion. That's not hard Scripture.

But what is very clear in Scripture is that Jesus believed in demons. Mark chapter one, first chapter, He's in the synagogue in Capernaum, and there's a man there who's demonized. The Greek is very helpful here. Not demon-possessed. It says literally he's demonized, he's influenced by a demon. We get caught up in these debates about words.

He disrupts the synagogue service. Jesus tells the demon to leave the man. The demon says, "I know who You are." Nobody else knows yet. So that unclean spirit, which is a really good translation for that word demon, that unclean spirit has more spiritual awareness than the rabbi or any of the senior leaders in that gathering of people of faith.

Jesus renounces the demon, tells it to leave, and the man gets to stay in the synagogue. Current practice in, I mean, I've spent my life in church—if somebody disrupts us, we remove the person and leave the demons in the people. Because we have so little comfort with the whole notion of an unclean spirit.

So what we do know is demons torment. They tend to inhabit living things or torment living things. I don't like to focus on that. I much prefer to focus on what the Holy Spirit is doing and the purposes of God than to spend my time focused on the unclean, the dark.

But I think any aspect, short answer, any aspect of your carnal nature that you give license to, you can get unclean spiritual support for. If you choose to give yourself the luxury of giving expression to your anger and you don't discipline yourself, I think you can come to a place where you'll get spiritual support that makes it hard for you to control.

I've sat with hundreds of people who said, "I know whatever this behavior is is destroying me, but I cannot stop." The easy way to tell between a clean and an unclean spirit, a holy and an unholy spirit: the Holy Spirit will never dominate you, manipulate you, or control you. I've never heard anybody say, "I can't stop being holy. I don't want to be holy. I can't stop being holy. It's overwhelming me."

But I have sat with hundreds of people that describe some self-destructive behavior that they feel powerless to stop until they meet the authority of Jesus. Then they can be free. It's not a power encounter, it's a truth encounter. You don't have to shout and scream.

Charlie Kirk: So I got one more like kind of wonky theological question that I think the audience will appreciate. In I think it's Genesis 3 or 4, I think it is 3—correct me if I'm wrong—but the Scripture says the angels came down and actually bred with mankind. Am I wrong in that reading? Do you touch on the Nephilim in your book? What are we to make of this idea that the angels, these celestial beings, procreated with image bearers?

Allen Jackson: I think your description is the generally accepted reading of the passage. Four theologians, you'll have 11 opinions. But I think that is the generally accepted. I don't disagree with that. To me, what's intriguing with that is the insight it gives us into the character of God. He creates beings and He gives them freedom.

Again, it's the difference between a Holy Spirit and an unholy spirit. Even the angels, God gave them freedom. There's this mistaken—people who stand outside the Kingdom of God and have not given Jesus that preeminent place in their life—they think He's going to take something away from them, diminish their life. He'll take away pleasure or joy or happiness or something.

It's a perversion of the Gospel. It's like the perversion of the truth that's so prevalent in our culture right now. The exact opposite is true. The more you will yield to the lordship of Jesus, the more freedom, the more joy, the more happiness, the more pleasure, the more liberty that will come to your life. Even the angels, God gave that privilege of—it's an intriguing insight to me into the character of this omnipotent, omniscient God that we worship.

I have nothing He needs, but He has made a way for me to participate in His eternal Kingdom. Yes is my answer. Absolutely. People say to me, "I don't want to go too far." I do. I live in Middle Tennessee. The only thing that stays in the middle of the road long-term is a possum; it's roadkill. I'm not looking for the middle of the road. I want to find the edge, build a ramp, and hit it full speed.

Charlie Kirk: So that brings us to today and you touched on this. The church needs to recognize that so much of their messaging is a byproduct of a hyper-materialistic secular worldview. We are the first people in really the species in the West to not believe in the spiritual dimension. Even the Aztecs believed in a spiritual dimension. The Incans, the Mayans, the Egyptians, the Indus River Valley.

We are the first generation of secular atheists. Kind of post-1900s, this idea really started to grow. So much of the church, without realizing it or not, has embraced this secularism within their messaging because they're afraid to talk about the spiritual aspect of it. They actually have a hyper-technical materialistic Gospel when you bring it down to it. It's very technical.

If you do this, you will get that. If you take this, you will get that. Very cause and effect. When in reality, the spiritual world is very humbling because there are forces around us that we don't quite always understand. There's an invisible dimension that can be very confusing to us. So how do we best understand this spiritual dimension, and why is it the modern church is so afraid to talk about it?

Allen Jackson: Well, I've spent my life in the church. I love the church. So I have some opinions. I think the church has moved so far away from the authority of Scripture. In my lifetime—my lifetime coincides with perhaps the most precipitous decline of Christian influence in the history of the church.

So that's unsettling to me. I think when we push Scripture aside—what we've watched in modern education amongst our elementary and high school children started in theological education a hundred years ago. Critical Theory dominates most of the elite theological schools today. It takes all the authority out of Scripture. We sit in judgment of Scripture, Scripture doesn't sit in judgment of us.

So if you want to get an elite education theologically and you go to these institutions so that you get the best paying jobs in the more traditional church settings, our most influential and celebrated leaders have been trained that there is no authority in the Scripture. So we become systems for social causes. We become civic clubs that have a little ecclesiastical language.

That's not the church. The church is an expression of the power of God. In the language of Corinthians, through a bunch of broken people. We weren't very noble, it says. God recruited a bunch of cracked pots from the wrong side of the tracks, so that anybody who saw the outcome would know it had to be the power of God.

What gives me great hope is since 2020, God has begun a sifting and a shaking and a realigning, and there are new voices coming forward. There's so much truth being spoken in our culture right now, but predominantly it's not coming from pulpits. It's coming from a younger generation of people with the courage to say there is good and evil, right and wrong.

They're giving an expression to a biblical worldview. It very much looks like an awakening, or at least the embers of an awakening. I have grieved a bit that it didn't come from the places I would have preferred, but that's not mine to call. I just see it happening, and I'm going to get in line and help.

A building and religious language does not make us the church. Honoring Jesus of Nazareth as Christ, Lord, and King does. That's what you're watching for. That's where you want to engage. That's where you want to give your time and your money and your attention and your efforts. That's where you want your children to be.

Because that's where there is life and power. That's what will bring another generation liberty and freedom for all. To the degree that our founding documents and founders had ideas that extended liberty for a few generations, it's only a reflection of the degree to which they cooperated with principles that are embedded in Scripture.

When the church stopped talking about that, when we no longer had the courage—it hasn't been very long. I read coming on the plane today something to Kathy, my wife. It was a quote from Dr. King. He said the church is an assignment to be the conscience of the culture. When we lose that, we forfeit much of our role.

The moral authority for the civil rights movement in the '50s and '60s was the Word of God. It was the authority of Scripture that thundered against the sin of our nation. That's very different than DEI. DEI is not thundering with the authority of Scripture. It's thundering with demonic manipulation of human beings that judges us by our appearance and not our character.

We used to teach our children in school from the Bible. Congress ordered a printing of the Bible as the colonies were breaking away from England, so that there would be enough copies of Scripture in our schools for the training of our children. Now we're teaching them social-emotional learning, and that's every bit as demonic as DEI. We've taken away discipline and an idea of right and wrong, and we've turned our schools into a large therapy session.

Allen Jackson: God designed our bodies to heal. When I came to that awareness, it changed my whole attitude towards prayer, but it also changed my attitude towards health. We've got a responsibility to do everything we can to promote our own health. That means what we eat matters.

In our busy lives and all the things going on, I have found I need a little help. So supplements and vitamins, nutrients have become an important part of my own lifestyle. Jordan Rubin's a friend, so ancientnutrition.com has become a part of my daily routine. They're a sponsor of this podcast, not just because we needed a sponsor, but because I actually use the products and I believe in them.

They have given us an opportunity for you. You can put in "BackToHealth26" as a code and you'll get 26% off site-wide on all the nutrients, all the supplements. Folks, eating healthy is important, but you can do some things to add to that. Let's stay healthy so we can fulfill what God has for each one of us to do.

Charlie Kirk: Why is it that the church—and just more broadly, we can broaden it up more—the church is failing in its current duty? The church is failing. Of course, we must say Dream City's an exception, Pastor Allen's church is an exception. We work with the exceptions at Turning Point Faith, right Lucas? We specialize in the exceptions.

But if we are honest with ourselves, the rule, not the exception, is a church that has grown silent and has been trembling and sometimes treacherous. I believe part of it, Pastor Allen, ties into your book and your thesis, which is if you ignore the spiritual dimension—I think it's one of many problems, I don't think it's the only problem, but I would put it top five—if you ignore the spiritual dimension and you don't talk about how there is a demonic realm. Because think about it: if you talk about a demonic realm, it then very quickly you could talk about sin and hell and eternal judgment.

Demons are scary. Woo! Not many pastors want to talk about demons because they think people will leave their church. Instead, they'll just say "Angels and You." That will be the title of the modern church, right? Angels and You and how you can get rich or something. But demons are like, woo, really scary.

We know the church is failing for multiple reasons. By its fruit, you will know it. That is a biblical principle. Church attendance has been going down steadily the last 30 years. It's actually plateaued and gone up one point in the last year and a half. I think that's only a COVID recovery. I don't even think that's a revival, so I think we have to be very humble in the way we look at that data. But the data is the data.

It's been a 30-year slide. More and more young people are identifying as not religious or, at very best, as spiritual. What has been the prevailing Christian, let's just say the prevailing church methodology? Number one, we must be more sensitive and we must water down Scripture. When we do those two things, we will then be able to bring more seekers into our church. The less truth that we tell, the bigger we'll be able to expand. That's basically been the formula. Has it worked, Pastor Allen? Last question, then we'll get to some Q&A.

Allen Jackson: Well, I want to disagree with you on one point, and it's a semantic thing. I don't believe the church is failing because Jesus is the head of the church and the church is triumphant. I think the institutional church in the way we've known it—the mechanical church.

I think that there's definitely a tremendous decrease in its influence. I think that's good. If they've rejected the authority of Scripture and the uniqueness of Jesus, I want their influence to diminish. That's exactly right. You could make an argument they're not actually even the church.

That's an easy argument. I think the order of march is really important and it's not complicated. Jesus—to enter the Kingdom of God, He didn't say you needed to be sensitive. He said you needed to be born again. It confused the man who'd come to see Him. It's in John 3. There was a confusing discussion.

He was a scholar. He said, "I'm old, I don't understand the logistics." Jesus was a bit chagrined by that. He said, "How can you, a leader of My people, not understand that there has to be a birth of the spirit?" Only the power of God can do that. But if we're willing to acknowledge Jesus of Nazareth as Christ, as the Messiah, and then you're willing to accept Him as Lord of your life, there's something supernatural that happens to you. There's a spiritual birth that takes place in you.

The Bible describes it as becoming a new creation. That message has lived in American evangelicalism pretty well. But we haven't taken much beyond that and talked about now the necessity of growing up in our faith, of running our race as if we want to win the prize. I've been invited to the hospital hundreds of times to see new arrivals, and there's grandparents and pictures and all this stuff.

But nobody imagines the story's done. It's just the promise of a life to be led well. So your entry into the Kingdom of God comes with that simple thing. It's not controlled by a church, a pastor, a priest, a denomination. You can do that by yourself. You can do it in the grocery store in the produce section or in the parking lot of the Dream Center or at the altar of a church.

It's the beginning point for every life. We have to go with that message. There will be good people in hell. There'll be kind people and generous people and pretty people. There'll be people who sit in churches. All of those things. It's our relationship with Jesus that determines our destiny and opens our lives to that new birth.

We have to care enough about our families and our friends and our neighbors and the people that we work with to share with them the good news. There's a God and you can know Him. He will change your life. He doesn't need anything from you. If you will take that simple step of faith, it opens an entirely new realm of existence to you.

The church has lost our passion for that. We think we can fix our problems with an election or a dynamic leader or more seats in Congress. I'm not against any of those things, but if those things are to happen, they will be because the church is awakened and we took our values back into the marketplace.

Charlie Kirk: That's well said. Let's start lining up for some Q&A. We'll get to as much as we can. Pastor Allen, I just want to thank you for your boldness. It is so refreshing to have someone that has a platform as big as yours. I hope you understand: Pastor Allen Jackson is heard by millions of people every single week. It's one of the largest ministries out there and really teaches the Word verse by chapter. So thank you for that. Okay, well we want to get to some questions here. Let's try to keep it around the genre we're talking about, but of course we'll take whatever we possibly can. Which side is ready for us? Which one? Right there. Yes sir.

Guest (Male): Just to get it straight, I'm not an angel. I've chosen to be one of God's warriors. I was mad at God in Vietnam, but now I know why He sent me. I believe we're at war between Satan's marionettes and God's warriors, and there is no middle ground. You can't be in the middle and be for God because you're more for Satan than you are for God. I believe in the Bible it might say God will spit you out if you try and stand in the middle. I think the message should be that if you have chosen to be one of Satan's marionettes, you need to cut the strings. Do you agree with me or do you think I'm sending a wrong message?

Allen Jackson: Well, I think my message is if you've chosen to this point to be one of Satan's marionettes, there's a better way to live your life. I continue to extend that invitation. Being angry and resentful and bitter isn't our goal. Our goal is to extend an invitation. We have good news that freedom is available to any human being.

I think if the church would embrace that with a greater enthusiasm—we almost apologize for it now. We apologize that we believe in Jesus or we apologize that we believe in right or wrong or good or evil. I think the world is waiting for the church with the strength to tell the truth. I don't apologize for believing in God or believing in Jesus Christ.

Guest (Female): Hi, we're the Trump Club. My question is, what is the difference between angels and archangels?

Allen Jackson: I think the simplest answer to that is there's a structure and a hierarchy in God's Kingdom. If we look at creation, it's very clear that we serve a God of great order and precision. I don't believe His Kingdom is random. So there is a structure to the angels and the authority that they have. So an archangel is an angel with more authority than another angel.

Charlie Kirk: One in particular is the angel Michael, who in the Book of Jude—I think it's Jude 1:9—talks about being the angel of battle. That is not just folklore, but there is scriptural evidence to show that. Thank you guys. God bless you. I guess you could say archangels are like the five-star generals of angels. Like, there's a bit of a hierarchy there. Yes sir.

Guest (Male): Welcome gentlemen, welcome. My question's got to do with DEI in the military. I'm a Maggot Lifer, retired Air Force. I never had that problem, that situation, because I was put in a lot of different jobs that had a lot of responsibility. So what do you guys think about President Trump and Secretary Hegseth kind of getting rid of it?

Charlie Kirk: First of all, thank you for your service, sir. We really appreciate that. I'm very much against it. I'm against any sort of DEI measurement in corporate life or in schools, but especially in the military. The military is a place where, to be perfectly honest, the military does not exist to accommodate all people.

The military does not exist to make people feel good. It's to be excellent and lethal and to protect the homeland against threats that want to wish us harm. Not only am I against DEI, I'm very much in favor of what Secretary Hegseth—who's doing a phenomenal job by the way—of what Secretary Hegseth issued yesterday where he said, "Combat is hard, it's difficult, people's lives are on the line. If you want to serve in combat, if you're a man or a woman, you have to have the same physical fitness standards."

One in particular is that in 2015 they said that women in combat, you only have to be able to deadlift 210 pounds. A man has to be able to deadlift 320 pounds. To put that in perspective, an average soldier that is a man with his pack and his ruck will weigh about 220 to 230 pounds. That means that a female marine or a female individual in the US Army, if all of a sudden a male marine would have his leg blown off, that female would not be strong enough to be able to carry him on her back to be able to give him necessary medical attention that could save his life.

That is not a military; that is a social experiment. That ends, and it's ending right now thanks to President Trump and Pete Hegseth. No place in our country. Let me just go a step further. I think it's awesome that you served in a time of military where everyone knew that you earned it and that you were qualified. DEI unintentionally introduces racism and prejudice where it otherwise did not exist, where then people wonder that if black Americans are in a certain role, are they there because they were the best or because there was some sort of accommodation.

In fact, it's insulting to people as yourself if you would have to reapply in the military under those standards. So God bless you, thank you for your service, and I'm glad we're bringing merit back to the finest fighting force on the planet.

Allen Jackson: I think the church muddied that conversation because we wanted the approval of the culture. So we came up with some other tortured explanations of Scripture to try to make diversity and equity and inclusion look like they were biblical principles—not in the way they were being pushed through our educational systems and the military.

Charlie Kirk: Thank you. That's exactly right. You could always go back to where does this idea originate? For example, natural rights, human equality, freedom of speech—all started by Christians and people that adhered to Scripture. Diversity, equity, inclusion to a T were all the outgrowth of secular philosophers like Derrick Bell and Kimberlé Crenshaw and Herbert Marcuse and Michel Foucault. None of them were believers.

That is a great test before we go any further. When an idea is pushed you on the culture, ask yourself: are the people who theorized this, who authored it, are they Christians and people who believed in the authority of Scripture, or are they secularists? That does not mean that secularists cannot have good ideas. However, it's a very good beginning and starting point of what is the origination. I would go a step further and say that a lot of the impulses of DEI is anti-Scripture and against our faith.

Javen: What are your thoughts on Greek gods? Do you think they're fallen angels? I know there is only one true God, but how do you think as a kid in public school who is taught about all of this and many generations have been taught?

Allen Jackson: That's a really good question. Thank you. I think the Christians have been way too passive. When they told us to take prayer out of the schools or our faith out of the schools, we rather meekly said yes. When they said you could pray at school but only if you pray at the flagpole outside, we said thank you.

But what we didn't acknowledge is in the schools, they're teaching worldviews and religions. I've walked through the public schools. There's all sorts of Egyptian gods and expressions of their faith that are a part of the education. I'm okay with that, but they need to tell how Christianity has shaped this nation. I think the Greek and Roman mythology are an ancient expression of the way we have worshipped demons and false gods throughout human history. They've been a part of the education, but you don't have to be afraid of it. If you know the truth, you don't have to be afraid of something that's false.

Charlie Kirk: A couple of very quick additional thoughts. Number one is that the Bible does talk about repeatedly—you have to be very careful using the word "gods" because we are a monotheistic faith—but forces that could be interplayed with the word god, like Molech, for example. Those are pagan manifestations of demonic and spiritual forces. Lucas is writing a book on paganism right now.

If you want to really have a breakthrough—and I think everyone needs to really dive deep into this—the more you realize that we don't live in an atheistic country but more in a pagan country, things start to make a lot more sense. Finally, understand that the early Christians were given what was conceived to be a very good offer by the Romans. The early Christians were humming, they were starting to win converts, and the Romans said, "Hey, look, we have this thing called the Pantheon. You could be one of many religions. We'll add you. We'll have Hermes, we'll have Ra, we'll have the sun god, we'll have the dirt god, we'll have the air god. We'll put you amongst manys. You'll be one amongst equals."

The early Christians, to their credit, said, "No, there's only one true God. We are not going to acknowledge all these fake pagan manifestations." The courage of the early church to do that as they faced martyrdom, as they faced extreme exile, is one of the great acts of courage that to this day led us to the truth of our faith. If they would have accepted that deal, a lot of the persecution would have stopped. A lot of the massacring of Christians in the early couple hundred years would have ceased. But they said, "No, we will go through the persecution, but we refuse ever say that Jesus is on the same level as Zeus. That is heresy and we will not put up with it." So I hope that's helpful.

Allen Jackson: Every day brings new reasons to worry: family, finances, health, the future. Sometimes it feels like the weight of tomorrow steals the peace we're meant to enjoy today. But Jesus gives us a different invitation. In Matthew chapter 6, He tells us, "Do not worry." Not because life will always be easy, but because our Heavenly Father is faithful.

In the updated book Freedom from Worry, I share practical biblical encouragement to help you replace anxiety with confidence in God's promises through Scripture, discussion questions, memory verses, and daily reflections. You'll discover practical ways to experience the peace Jesus offers every day. Request your copy of Freedom from Worry with your gift of $20 or more at allenjackson.com or call 800-880-5102.

Guest (Female): Hi, Pastor. Last summer there was some testimony in Congress about UAPs, what we used to call UFOs, and that they have biologicals. Just wondering your opinion, wisdom on that.

Allen Jackson: I'm not familiar enough with what the government has. I think what I can say today is I'm convinced that for far too long, our government has been deceitful, dishonest, lied to us, and manipulated us. One of the very uncomfortable things that has come forth in my life since COVID is that—I'm going to borrow Reagan's line—I have to trust but verify.

My father was a veterinarian, I grew up in the sciences. I trusted the CDC and the NIH and all of those people until about April of 2020. My—I'm a veterinarian's assistant informally and my training said this isn't science anymore. So on that particular topic, I haven't seen enough data. I've listened to a lot of information, but I don't really have anything beyond that to imagine that there's aspects of creation that we don't know about makes complete sense to me.

Every time we get a telescope and we can see further into the universe, our last theory has to be changed because we were incorrect. Or every time we learn more about this physical world we're in, we're adapting what we said was absolute fact. So I'm completely comfortable saying there are aspects of creation that we just don't know. I had a mentor in my life, he said that miracles were not Jesus using some extra power; He was just taking advantage of aspects of creation that we don't understand. So the discussion doesn't bother me, but I don't trust the source.

Guest (Female): My first time ever doing this, but I just want to tell you that I love you all and I definitely appreciate your ministry, Mr. Charlie Kirk. To God be the glory. And Pastor. So I wanted to ask about demons because I find myself feeling to pray for people and I have had a conversation, or people sometimes have tried to almost make somebody feel like they should be afraid to pray if somebody is, say, demon-possessed or dealing with some kind of demonic spirit. I love what you said about the authority, because we have authority in Christ Jesus. So what is it or what would you say if someone maybe new to wanting to cast a devil out of someone or cast a demon out of someone who is demonized? Do you think people should discourage people from that if they feel led to do that? And also for someone who might be new to that, maybe they're not so used to that, how do you think they should approach that when they see someone who is like casting out devils or if they feel led to cast out demons and devils out of people?

Allen Jackson: It's a good question. I think the simplest way to imagine it is it begins with repentance. If a person wants to be free, that's a very simple path. You acknowledge—repentance means you change your thought and you change your behavior. So there's a simple step. "Lord, I'm sorry, I've been thinking the wrong way about something and behaving the wrong way."

And if there is some unclean spirit that's involved with that, if you'll repent of the sin and renounce your involvement with that—if you were involved with the occult or whatever it may have been—you can be free. It's a truth encounter, it's not a power encounter. So it doesn't have to be frightening. Hollywood can sell more tickets if it's dramatic.

But I don't think it has to be dramatic at all. I simply think you need to acknowledge that you want a different outcome and where the power and the authority is for that freedom, and then you can help people walk through that. There's a couple of simple books. Neil Anderson's written on this really well: The Bondage Breaker or Freedom in Christ. He'll give you ten steps to freedom that anybody could pick up and walk through with someone else. It's a very straightforward, biblically sound way to process.

Charlie Kirk: I will just add, far from being an expert, that demon possession is real. Some people who say they are demon-possessed are probably not. I am not a Catholic, but I will say the Catholic Church, to their credit, has the most robust, thorough documentation of possession. If you guys ever want to go into that, that'll make you believe in the spiritual dimension very quickly.

What the Catholic Church has documented through their process of exorcism and what Protestants that have gone into this have found: you don't just get possessed by walking down the side of the street. It does not just zap. You must actively seek it. It almost always comes in one of three ways: the occult, tarot cards, or playing at some sort of a witchcraft game. Otherwise, stay out of Sedona, everybody, right? That's basically it.

Do not go there at all. If you keep on driving and do not go to any of that New Age stuff. The point being, the most famous exorcisms of the 20th century—of course, the most famous was Emily Rose. Don't watch the movie. I mean that seriously. It's awful and you're just inviting dark stuff. But reading the transcripts of both Catholic priests and Protestants who kind of dealt with that, it is eerily similar to what the Scriptures tell us of the contortion of bodies, of other voices going through that individual that are not their own, and also the quoting of Scripture back at the exorcist.

All that to say, I'm not an expert in that, but it did do one thing the more I researched it: it made me believe more and more in this invisible dimension. That atheists must not just grapple with the existence of God, they also must grapple with the existence of evil and the demonic as well. It's a very important point that if you have an atheist in your life, that not only they must deal with this idea of the eternal that created everything, but also, I think in a very backwards way, possession can also make some people second guess that maybe there is an invisible dimension. And by the way, if you don't also believe me, talk to missionaries that have gone to Haiti and they will rock your world about the idea of possession. Why is that? Half of Haitian culture still practices witchcraft. Actively witchcraft and the occult is the most active per capita in the country of Haiti.

Guest (Male): Hi. You touched on before creation. I was just wondering if you could tell me more about that, like what your opinion is on what happened before creation.

Allen Jackson: It's a good question. I don't really think we have the information. When Genesis opens, it says that there was chaos, really. There's two Hebrew words used there that are used a handful of times in the Old Testament, and they almost always describe something chaotic where there's been some destruction.

So I don't think Genesis begins with the original creation. It says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," and then it says, "and the earth was void and without shape and the spirit of God is hovering over the face of the deep," and then God begins to bring order out of that. So there's some things that aren't there.

What the Bible is is the story of an almighty God and His creation of an environment for human beings to live in and how we can have a relationship with Him. It's not the complete story. We don't know where God came from. It's not there. So what we have the opportunity to do is take the design manual and accept that truth and get to know this almighty God. Or we can establish ourselves as in charge and we can figure it out. So I'm not trying to avoid it. I just don't think the information's there and my speculation isn't overly helpful.

Guest (Male): So the demonic always seems to know where to attack and tempt me—and probably all of us. So are our thoughts being read? Are they keying off behavior or the words we speak? How does this always seem to know?

Allen Jackson: I think the question is centering around the intelligence of unclean spiritual forces. Personally, I don't think it's prudent to make fun of the devil. He's been pretty effective against most of my heroes: Moses and David and Abraham. You can take the list. So I don't mock him or make fun of him.

The story's told of Martin Luther—I don't know that it's true—that he woke up in the middle of the night and he saw the devil standing at the foot of his bed. He said, "Oh, it's just you," and he rolled back over and went to sleep. I like the approach. My experience is the devil always overplays his hand. He goes too far. I think we've seen that culturally. He goes to the point that it's so absurd that marginally aware people go, "Wait a minute, that's just too far."

As far as that individual nature, I think we all have vulnerabilities. We're not all tempted on every point. So my favorite sins to preach against are the ones that aren't temptations for me. I mean, I can drop the hammer on poaching elephants, because I haven't been tempted to do that in a long time. Eating too much chocolate—I try to stay away from gluttony because that's a little more personal.

But the reality is we all know we have some points of vulnerability. With that self-awareness, then, gives you a game plan. I don't put myself in places where those points of vulnerability are exposed. I won't give my discretionary time—I don't have a great deal of discretionary time—but I will not give it to people that don't encourage me in godliness.

Because the struggle's too real, the challenge is too great. I find my friends that have excellence in some area, they spend their free time with people that help them be better at what they're trying to learn. If you want to be more godly, spend your discretionary time with people that will encourage you in the Lord, not discourage you. So I don't spend a lot of time worried about the enemy. I try to spend my time getting closer to the Lord and living in the strength and the truth that He's given me. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about viruses and bacteria; I just try to get healthy.

Charlie Kirk: Pastor Allen, would you lead us in kind of a conclusion here and a call to the Lord?

Allen Jackson: I would. I give you the same invitation that my mom asked for: to know the truth. And that's not about being Baptist or Catholic or Jewish. It's that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Wherever you come into your journey tonight, you may be a veteran of decades in the church. I came to this building decades ago and the Lord met me in this place.

I'm sure He's still meeting people here. Tonight would be a good night simply to say to the Lord, "I want to take another step with You. I don't want to come presumptuously and imagine that I know it all." And if you've stood on the outside as a skeptic, I would invite you simply to say, "Jesus, be Lord of my life."

It doesn't take a genius to be a skeptic. It's not hard to find the frailty in Christians, folks. Our weaknesses are on display most days. But sitting in the seat of the skeptics is a lonely place to stay. It's more fun to be engaged with what God is doing. So I would invite you, whatever brought you here, to say to the Lord, "I want to give You a greater place in my heart and life. I want to give You a greater place in my priorities."

I'm going to say that little prayer, and to the degree that that makes sense for you, you just say, "Yes, Lord." I want to stand for that, if you will. I'm pretty sure if the Lord came in the room we'd stand before we put our face in the carpet. I think that would happen really quickly, but I think we would start by standing. He deserves our respect and our reverence.

God's not like us. He can make me out of a dust ball and not exert any effort. There's nothing hidden from Him. He knows the ending at the beginning. The greatest problems and challenges we have today do not cause God any anxiety. The church is way too anxious. If we would be more aware and closer to the Lord and stand more in His authority and power, we would be a much greater help to this nation than any elected official.

I'm grateful for all those people that are making sacrifices to provide leadership to our nation. But I believe that God is awakening a generation of people who will tell His truth. So what if we said tonight, "I want to be one of those people." For some it's a first step, for some it's another step, for some it's a reprioritization of your life and your time. Life is no brief candle to me. In fact, it seems kind of long. But there's no do-overs. I want every season of my life to reflect my very best effort for the Kingdom of God.

Let's pray. Father, I thank You for these men and women. They've made a sacrifice to be here tonight. You've said that You're the reward of those who diligently seek You, so I lift them before You. For those who are standing apart from You, I pray that they will simply say, "Jesus, be Lord of my life."

Lord, give them the courage to take that step, to move beyond indifference. There are many of us who have known You and walked with You, but we've been distracted by many things. We come tonight to say we're sorry. We give You first place. Forgive us for our ambivalence. Forgive us for imagining that something beyond You would bring contentment and joy and peace to us.

Jesus, be Lord of our life. May Your truth grow in our hearts. May Your name be exalted and Your Kingdom extended in our generation, that will cause the nations of the world to stand in wonder. We thank You for it, in Jesus' name.

Allen Jackson: Thanks for joining me today. Before you go, please like the podcast and leave a comment so more people can hear about this topic too. If you haven't yet, be sure and subscribe to Allen Jackson Ministries' YouTube channel and follow the Culture & Christianity podcast. You can do that on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Together, let's learn how to lead with our faith. We can change our culture. I'll see you next time.